You for joining us tonight. Four days 23 hours and just about 30 minutes from kickoff of super bowl 56 in englewood, california. Super bowl without the chiefs who to thank it. Um funny thing in the in the runup to whats annually the biggest most analyzed and hyped game on the planet. Actually not so funny thing we havent been delused to this point with gushing stories about joe burrow, the the wonderkin bengals quarterback who beat the chiefs a couple of sundays ago or about the pressure. Hes likely to get from the rams and one of the best defensive front sevens in the nfl. The dominant headlines have been off the field and they arent gushing. The nfl has a Racial Equity problem. Brian flores says so in a Class Action Lawsuit filed last week against the league and three of its teams. Hed been fired as the Miami Dolphins coach after backtoback winning seasons and didnt as he saw it get a fair shot at any of the other eight head coaching jobs filled past few weeks. In a suit, he says quote rules have been implemented promises made but nothing has changed. And he calls the nfl quote in certain ways racially segregated and quote managed much like a plantation. Now the leagues commissioner Roger Goodell admits. Theres a problem saying the leagues failure to add diversity to its head coaching ranks is unacceptable his word. And indeed the numbers are stark if in a league in which 70 of the players are black or other minorities only two head coaches or black and a total of five or minorities. Now, of course John Feinstein one of the best sports journalist on the planet was in front of the story. His latest book raise a fist take a knee. Raced in the illusion of progress in modern sports came out in november it lays out the decidedly mixed record of success that sports and not just the nfl but also Major League Baseball bigtime College Football and basketball and other pro sports. Had in promoting and especially in achieving Racial Equity. Baseball 30 teams two black managers and just one black executive running a Team Baseball operations. College footballs top division the one in which alabama and ohio state and missouri and kansas play. 130 programs in which 60 of the players were black or other minorities this past season, but well more than 80 of the head coaches were white same for the people who hired those coaches more than 81 of the athletic directors at those schools were and are white of course, theres also the pushback against players who might dare to take a stand. We saw that six years ago when more than two dozen Football Players at the university of missouri threatened to sit out over the schools and the University Systems handling of racist incidents on campus. Their coach gary pinkle supported them many others did not then the lebron james told to shut up and dribble. Colin kaepernick is out of football. John whom im fortunate to call a friend and a former colleague is with us tonight to talk about his book and about the fact that the issues of Racial Discrimination and inequity plaguing society at large. Do not spare sports the habit in the past. They still dont know. Joining john in the conversation. Is jaya don day another old friend who directs the sports Journalism Program at northwesterns renowned Madill School of journalism media and integrated marketing communications. When i first talked to john a little while back about tonight about a program revolving around his book the first thing he said was this is the most important book ive written. Which for john is saying something . Hes written 45 books, including two of the most acclaimed and bestselling sports titles of all time the season on the brink and a good walk spoiled. Johns a long time writer and columnist for the Washington Post. Hes contributed to many other National Outlets both print and broadcast and as a member of five count of five halls of fame including the National Sports writers and sportscasters hall of fame and the naismith memorial Basketball Hall of fame as a winner of its kurt gowdy award. Jay has had has had in northwestern sports Journalism Programs since 2016 and is also an accomplished sports journalist, including 10 years as a columnist for the Los Angeles Times and as a writer at the Washington Post alongside john and the chicago suntimes. You may recognize jay from his more than a thousand appearances on espns roundtable discussion show around the horn. Now if you have a question over the course of their discussion and and we hope you do. You can submit it via the youtube live chat box and and well get as many answered as we can at the end of the presentation. John jay, its its great to see you again, and its great to have you here. Thanks so much for joining us and and welcome to both of you jay. Ill let you get things started. So much steve is great to see you again. Its great to be reunited with with the two of you and i appreciate that you thought of me for this discussion. Certainly. These are topics that ive always felt are important really one of the reasons i got into sports journalism is to help tell the stories beyond the field and beyond the arena and to look at the interaction of sports in society and john is certainly taken on that challenge most specifically in this book and john of all the multitude of books everyone starts with the same thing and thats an idea, right . So what was the idea and the motivation behind this book at this time . Well, jay, first of all, thanks for doing this with me. Im grateful to you for taking the time and and where i think were both grateful to steve for reaching to steve for reaching out to us the my history with race and sports really goes back to when i was in college. I grew up in new york city. I played ball all the time in my neighborhood with white kids black kids in hispanic kids and the only thing that mattered and im sure you experienced this as a kid too was could you play it didnt matter what what race you were or whats your ethnic background was but when i got to do it was a lot different politically and in every possible way and my junior year duke played a Football Game in army and duke back then as now was lousy in football. And so the durham morning herald the local paper i was starting to do some stringing work for them working for them as a nonstaff or at times and they asked me to cover the duke army Football Game, which i was thrilled. I got paid 50 bucks to write a lead and a sidebar and that was huge money. And duke rallied in a second half to win the game when they brought in a freshman quarterback named mike dunn and i wrote about mike dunn coming in to save the game and then i wrote my sidebar on him and how duke of recruited him and the high hopes they had for him. He turned out to be a very good college player. And was very happy with myself. I made deadline flew home with team picked up the paper the next morning excited to see two bylines and when i got to the part where i introduced done in the lead. It said duke black freshman quarterback. My god and i was like what . I mean duke had black linebackers back black running backs black Wide Receivers black everything. Um done was the first black quarterback at this is 197. 0 75 and so i called the editor who had edited the two stories because he put it in the sidebar, too. And i said, what are you doing here . What difference does it make what color he is and he said john hes the first black quarterback dudes ever had thats part of the story and the funny thing. I was furious and the funny thing was when i was working on this book, and i was talking to Doug Williams who as you know, wrote the forward first black quarterback to everyone a super bowl and i go way back with doug and i told him that story and he laughed that and its boy, were you naive . Of course, they were gonna put that in the story one of my First Experience with dealing with the fact that race is always there in one form or another and then in 2010 there were other incidents and i obviously known a lot of black athletes and black coaches through the years, but in 2010 Donovan Mcnabb came to play quarterback here in washington. And in the eighth game of the season against the detroit lions, hed taken every step and washington fell behind 30 to 25 at the twominute warning and they took the kick off and rex grossman the immortal rex grossman who you with your chicago background, probably remember because you take the bears to the bears and super bowl the last super bowl. Hes proof that lovie smith is a great coach. But rex grossman came in he hadnt taken a snap all season. Like i said. First play he was stripped sacked by Ndamukong Suh picked a ball up ran into the end zone game over. So after the game shanahan was asked what made you change quarterbacks and and he could have said look i had a gut feeling about rex he could have said donovan wasnt having a great game, which he wasnt but instead he said well, i didnt know if donovan knew our two minute offense. This is an 11th year nfl quarterback midway through the season and he didnt know the two minute offense. Well that answer really didnt sit well with a lot of the media. So the next day he was asked it again this time. He said i didnt know if donovan was in shape to run back to back place. Wow. So this simmered for a week washington was off the next week. It was a bye week there. Bye week and Chris Mortenson who you know well and who i know well reported on espn that weekend that the shanahans according to sources. It was anonymous. According to sources the shanahans had to cut their playbook in half for mcnatt. This guy whos taking a team to the super bowl . Hes been a pro bowl quarterback. I think the eagles had made the playoffs seven times in his ten years there. And now in a week, hes been called out of shape of not prepared and finally anonymously dumb. By his coaches now you knew where it came from it came from one of the shanahans either mike or kyle. So the next day i went on a tv show that i think you were on through the years Washington Post live and i attacked the Mike Shanahan. I said, this is racial coding. This goes back to the 60s and 70s when people claim that blacks werent smart enough to play the quarterback position. And i and what was most fascinating about it. Jay was how i was attacked. In in the washington media in particularly the national media. I was accused of playing the race card. Which is what happens often when you bring up racism issue as tony dungy likes to say when i bring up. Races and issue people say why are you making race an issue and my answer is because it is an issue. And of course hes 100 right so that simmered with me until the anthem protests in 2017 what Colin Kaepernick was clearly blackballed out of the league and yet most of the nfl media was writing stories quoting sources is saying oh no. No, he wasnt black gold. Hes just not good enough anymore. He was 29 years old. Hed been the starting quarterback for the 49ers the year before the last 11 games of the season and all of a sudden hes not good enough to be in there at the top 64 quarterbacks in the league. But they they duly reported it and then during the anthem protests. After Donald Trumps rant, you know whenever players were kneeling most black. Fans were brewing most white and i thought wow. Wow. We are really polarized in this country right now. Racially, and i went to see John Thompson who i had known. Since i first got to the post, excuse me when he was in the middle of his hall of fame career at georgetown and wed fought for much of that time legendary fights. Some of them were pretty legendary kind when i was stupid enough to to offer to go outside with him and figure things out that way which would not have worked out well for me fortunately. He laughed at me and refused the offer but john had become kind of a mentor to me in many ways after he retired because hes so he was so smart. And i went and i said to him i want to do a book on race in sports, but i dont know where to start. And he said you might as well try to explain the holy trinity and then he pointed a finger it means which is why you have to oh, which is why you have to do it. But i still didnt have a way in. The next year i found the way in. Which was Lamar Jackson who as you remember when he came out of college was told become a wide receiver become a running back. Your skills arent right for an nfl quarterback. Four white quarterbacks were drafted in the top 10 that year one of them. Josh. Allen has become a star baker mayfields. Okay. Um and josh rosen is unlike his fourth team already and sam darnold has failed both in with the jets. Most surprised to me as a lifelong jets fan and with the carolina panthers. Lamar jackson went with the last pick in the first round and not coincidentally was chosen by ozzie newsom. Was the first black general manager in the well, we all know what whats come come to pass. Lamar was unanimous mvp in his second year in the league he when he got hurt this year the ravens fell apart completely. They never won another game after he got injured. Hes one of the four who at worst one of the excuse me four or five best quarterbacks in the nfl and yet all these experts these the scouts the pundits on tv bill pulley, and im not picking on him, but he just happens to be a hall of famer who was on tv at the time all said he shouldnt be a quarterback. Steve young was very fast. Fran tarkenton was very fast. No one ever suggested they changed positions. If Lamar Jackson was the exact same player and he was white. No one would have ever suggested. He changed positions. So that was my way into the book. I want to go back to that story and told about. The duke army game and seeing words added to your lead. Im wondering what you learned about how and from your subsequent or youre more recent conversation with Doug Williams about that about how in some cases. Black people want the race to be included, you know, its not a sidebar when Lamar Jackson is the mvp that theres significance that the racial component of that is significant when Patrick Mahomes wins a super bowl mvp. The racial component of that is significant. How did you become aware of that and maybe how did you come to incorporate that in your writing . Well, its funny because i obviously i went and talked to my gun. After that happened we were fellow students and i apologize to him. And and mike said dont worry about it. I understand why they did it. I mean hes very bright guy and um, you make a good point that it when the first time i interviewed Doug Williams when he was in tampa, i know this became kind of a famous story at the super bowl later, but i apologize to him because we were about a year late getting down there. We being the Washington Post. He was in his second year by the time George Solomon sent me down to write a story about him and and by then the bucks had gotten good and they went to the playoffs that year. They actually went to the nfc championship game, but when i sat down with doug i said, im really sorry that make you an answer all these questions again, and he looked at me. He said john ive been a black quarterback all my life. So far away and dont worry about it. And you know that when people reference white guilt i think sometimes i probably have some of that but its for good reason theres reason for us to feel guilty about the way blacks have been treated. In this country for 400 plus years now, but also in sports and Leonard Hamilton the Florida State basketball coach who grew up with jim crow. In in charlotte, North Carolina said to me look for any of us to say progress hasnt been made is stupid. I mean i grew up with white only water fountains and having to sit in the balcony at the movies and and dealing with that throughout my boyhood and obviously thats totally different now he said but people there are people many of them 74 Million People voted for donald trump a little more than a year ago who want to believe that because theres no jim crow because theyre a Voting Rights laws. Although now that some of them are basically being repealed. Its okay. We dont have to worry about race anymore. Well, thats just not true as we all know. Its its the fact that steve mentioned the brian flores case. Its 2022. Jackie itll be 75 years. Since Jackie Robinson made his debut in brooklyn. Come april. And were still dealing with some of the same stuff jay. I mean, you know that you you live with it every day and what i mean, look at black participation to Major League Baseball, right . I mean it peaked in the 70s into the mid 80s and its outstanding it was down to six percent. Its now come back up to eight percent about half of where it was about 40 years ago. Yeah. I was almost 20 at that point and part of it is just the way our society has changed, you know, the kids want to play basketball. They want to play baseball. They dont want to that football. They dont want to play baseball as much you dont see, you know, when i was a kid, we played in the schoolyard or in the p