like everyone else who has been on this stage perhaps myself excluded, joe's credential -- joe joe's credentials are so varied, and joe has just told me hey has public service announcements to make. so i'm going to -- >> before you ask any questions, i do have a few public service announcements to make. first of all, since we're kind of coming to the end of the roa here i just want to compliment the people who put this thing on. it's -- it is. [applause] >> it has been pure joy every minute of it. i mean, the endorphins are just crazy in my brain, and also i am just so honored to have been on the same stage with so many brilliant and wonderful ride cash writers and want to do a special outshout oh joyce carol oats who defended against the idiot hordeses and in 20 years after they were coming after me after i wrote "primary colors" she defended me, too, andnd defended the act of writing anonymously. >> don't screw up my questions, joe. >> guest: i also want to thank the four young cowboyan american high school teachers who mail be in the audience today, who we had tischer with last night. they teach in miami and just inspirational to hang with them. and then i have an observation. i've been looking at that thing, the abraham lincoln for the last four days, and it's the only rendering of abraham lincoln that i have found that isn't haunting. every last other one was hauning and i was trying to think, it was kind of like photo shop. did they have photo schoop in 19th century? i was trying to figure out who who he looked lick and looks like a ross between mitt romney and gary cooper. so they had split cal spin -- political spin doctors becomehed then, and i want to say donna brazil is a good friend of mine and gave me many of the questions in advance. so, fire away. >> host: okay. -- >> guest: the answer to the first one is the supreme court really is a crucial issue in this race, but you don't get out there and voice you're not going to get the supreme court you want. >> host: yes. evidently. in payback, your book about vietnam veterans, actually i'm going to start with something else. >> guest: wait a second. >> host: this is a question you to moment the anyway rare rayot or primary colors, a guy beginning to attach himself to the presidential candidate, jack stanton, says he's trying to maca decision about whether to keep following. he says, anyway, i was curious. that's a sentence that really struck me even though it's pretty plain speech. and in comparison and in relation to your career as a journalist. where does a journalist curiosity come from. in "payback" you talk to five verns of charlie company, and you want to know why. >> guest: well, in my case, this is a nice biographical question question. it comes from having been a child of the '60s and kind of made my way through college without ever going to collegehe and graduating from college without ever having learn anything except for one brilliant course about the history of the south. and i came out and i was angry about the war and i was angry about segregation, and i started to write, and over time, an incredible thing happened to me i found that when i actually went out and reported things, the results were not -- didn't always confirm with me preconceived notions. for example i covered busing in boston for the underground press -- for the real paper. don't know if you remember that publication. one of the most talents staffs i ever worked with.bl and i couldn't find any black people who favored butting. i would talk to black women at the housing project and they would say we just spent the last four years trying to get a break fast program and now they're making making our kid goes off if the honkize and 20 before the jeremy burk high school, the black high school, went on to college and four percent of southy high -- in path southie high graduated more kids kids into marines thao college. and it seemed to me this was the beginning of my political education. this was being imposed by lib p rat woods didn't see anything about the -- working and poor people they were imposing this on. and so overtime i just picked up thing is wanted to know about. when russia was collapsing i went to russia. t i did china. i did veterans because the notion of service has always been a huge thing in my life, and in fact, charlie mike, my most recent book, is the one that probably of the seven i've written is close toast my -- closest to my heart. it was an educational process. >> host: let's talk about -- you have in your dossier three basic categories of writing. one is a novel, one is journalism reporting, which you gist spoke about, the third is a column which is different from the other two, obviously. let me ask you how -- since we're here to talk about revealing power but also literature, how did those three different categories affect the way you write? do you feel different? i guess you're not writing fiction anymore but did you feel -- >> i am. working on something now. >> host: excellent. but. >> guest: i came from the underground press. stone tone -- "rolling stone's" washington bureau in '70 ands going from that to writing a column was neal but i never wrote the way other people did. i underdon't sit back and stroke my chip and have deep thoughts. i had to go to afghanistan and iraq and go across the country man times, talking to people. i had to go to tea party meetings. i had to actually see these things and experience them because of that first experience in boston. and in a more general way, the process of doing journalism and writing fiction are the exact opposite for me. although both involve some research, obviously. but in journalism i just report the hell out of something, and i get the lead in my mind, and i sit down and i write the lead and then i completely panic. with fiction writing -- especially true with "primary colors" and the lesser extent with "the running mate,." >> host: i apologize, i did read that book. >> guest: and it is the exact opposite itch have no idea what the characters are going to do next, and i sit down totally panicked and then they start talking to each other, and i once had a conversation with -- i twice had a conversation with bill clinton about "primaryth colors" and i tell tell you bought of them before the evening is over. >> host: to ahead. >> guest: i said to him, you know, the deal was that theo gimmick was going to be that he was going to lose, but he just wouldn't. i kept on throwing all of the stupidest scandles out there at this character, and somebody hoe would writingle his way out of there, and he wrote me a wonderful notice thanking me for my subconscious. he says i always knew you looked my. the truth is i did. >> host: let's talk about "prim primary colors. i pred the privilege of editing the book and i didn't know who wrote it until the press conference. >> guest: i like that fact you that is wag lisa grunwald. can't be any here i praise for a male writer than to be thought a woman. >> host: very good. so, let not talk -- i promise we will not talk about the anonymity of "primary colors." let me ask you a let rare question. -- literary question. white did you decide to write anonymously. >> guest: there were the stages to the press. the first stage was cowardice and whimsy. the cowardice -- >> sound like ala firm. >> guest: cowardice and whimsy. a keynesian law firm mitchell first two editors at the beverly times in massachusetts were named bob cutting and erving sheer. but cowardice and women whimsy. eave last journalist thinks they have a november in their brain -- a novel in their brain, which really stupid conceit because it's an entirely, entirely different thing. and i didn't want to make other follow -- fool of myself but my wife and i-especially my wife who is that's best read person i know, loved 19th century english literature, and nobody put their name on anything back then. jane austin -- "pride and prejudice" by a lady.. the first semi -- the first -- an early semi tolerable political novel, "democracy" was written anonymously by henry adams and his secret wasn't revealed until three years after he died. so that was the first part. then the second part was -- >> the cowardice. >> guest: no. the second stage was things started happening to thesehe se characters, things i didn't expect. and at within pound -- one point in the second chapter, susan stanton tells a story.jack stanton as a young politician had no basis in reality. and i said where the hell did that come from? and then libby, my favorite, which, my honorrine. six-foot lesbian with a mouth on her, appeared in a job that betsy wright had in the campaign itch hat cagedy bates in mind when i wrote here. i would bring the pages down to victoria at night, and she would start reading and laughing hit hysterically and saying where did this come from? i didn't know. i decide wanted to have the book judged on its own marries rather than my relationship with bill clinton, and i knew that if my name was on it, it would not be treated fairly by my fellow journalists. and then the third stage was, after it exploded, which none of us expected, right? >> host: i did. >> guest: you did? >> why. >> guest: why didn't random house keep reducing the prisoning. they couldn't keep up if with it after i was publishing. started off at 55 and -- >> that didn't -- >> guest: that's publishing for you. it got scary as hell. to have a feeding frenzy going after you, and when i became a target, we had two little kids who were going to elementary school and i said to victoria, i think i want to come out. she said, no, no, no, no,ment no. -and i think that in the end i probably should have come out earlier, but there was a lot of fear going on. so that's why. >> okay. how -- how did you decide to take the voice of a young black political worker? what led to that choice of narrator? >> guest: well, it was an homage to arthur penn warren. -- robert penn warren. >> host: that's okay. >> guest: aanonymous name. >> host: we'll fifth you pass. >> guest: but white black and why young? and the other most crucial part of this is that he was the most middle class, upper middle class character in book, which i thought would be kind of ironic and hilarious.ug but the blackness was in part because -- i had several people be in mind, one of them was myself, obviously. another was george stephanopoulos, and a third was bill motor -- morton who was an tide didn't aide to ron brown and was a well, smart guy who died in the plane crash, and years later -- this has happened to me so many times with "premiere colors." a woman who had been dating bill morton said to me, how died youd know that clinton had him come to an event in brooklyn and wanted item be on staff? i said i had no idea. just happened. and in the novel it was init jus harlem. >> host: did the choice of that narrator affect your voice? i mean, did you inhabit him? did he inhabit you? >> guest: who knows. there was some kind of -- >> host: you should.d. >> guest: some kind of melding going on there i wrote the book. on mondays. because -- because tuesdays i was working at "news week" and tuesday through saturday was the work week, some on saturday and sunday i was doing commentary for cbs news. and i would sit down and all of a sudden it would be four hourss later and 5,000 words wherein. never happened to me before or since. i've had in good days but those days were kind of scary, and the act of disappearing, i think, is a really important thing for all of us. i think that the purist state of intellectual nature is when you're so involved with what you're thinking.that you disappear, you forget.your corp corporeal existence. >> host: you used the word "scary. "insofar as as i've ever shared that experience and most writers i know would say the same thing. a little puzzling to me why it's frightening. do you have any idea? when you get in, as they callli it, the zone and forget yourself. >> guest: well, it's not frightening while you're in sewn but when you leave the zone, the biggest fear is, aim ever going to get there again? can i come back? >> host: so, i promised we wouldn't talk about controversy so let talk about the controversy. what do you say? >> guest: okay. >> host: what were your experiences going through that firestorm before, during and after? i mean, just talk about what it was like. >> guest: it was a fabulous learning experience. it was incredibly painful but a fabulous learning experience. i was shocked by the anger women had the first conference. you hand met groucho glasses which i walked out and said, ich guess i won't be needing these anymore, and "the new york times" reported, subsequently, i gave the press conference wear ing groucho classes. never anything so humbling for a journalis to be the subject. i learned how slippery assholes my colleagues were. the times has some on the greatest journalisted in world, especially those who i have covered wars with overseas and politics as well. but when it comes to social and cultural and -- there's a really lot of nonsense going on there, and i mean, maureen dowd wrote three columns about "primary colors" before it came out and she said we'll know immediately who wrote it because of who the villains are. when mike nichols because the rights to movie he said the thing he likes best is there were no villains in there. which is why i wrote it, a good part of me motivation.wh so i had that terrible press conference, and that night random house put me up the waldorf. up on the cape where we pend -- spend our summers, and i -- at a certain point, i couldn't sleep. i couldn't eat.'t kept on drinking water do going to at the bathroom and shaking uncontrollably. and i had this moment and i said, you know what you just experienced, joe? you u.s. and experienced an average day in life of bill clinton. and it's true when you think about enduring a press conference. i mean, it almost gives me enough -- almost -- >> host: watch it. >> guest: it is almost enough to make me sympathetic with donald trump but i can't be. >> host: i knew that's where we were going. >> guest: but then a very interesting thing happened.th in the weeks after that, ies started getting phone calls from politicians. it had absolutely no ideological consistency. some good friend, like paul wellstone, dear, wonderful guys. bob mitt suery. john mccain on the right. people from across the spectrum said to me, we know what it feels like to be in the position you're in now. the there are people trying to drive me out of the business, "news week" laid me off for a week and then okay graham, bless her heart, said how are you feeling? i said i'm business pissed off and want to write a column on welfare reform. she said you're in the magazine this week. all the politicians said the exact same thing, we have been through this, and the way you get through it is go to work. get out there and start reporting about other people. and the final thing that happened was that i decided to change the rules of journalism. i -- for me at least. i decided that i would have a no gotcha rule. that if a politician said something really stupid. didn't involve a matter of life and death, national security, war and peace, and i would tell them to them if i wereew interviewing them for the first time. if you say something stupid you can take it back. really feel that politicians are no day in the park. but they're not as bad as we have come to portray them. and if we want them to trust us, and to tell us what they're really thinking, we have to make some concessions to them as well, and i thought, at that point i had so much notoriety i didn't need to make my name by saying, chuck schumer said shit. so they've only called it on themselves once or twice in last 20 years. >> host: so, let's tuck about the elephant in the room. a little bit. and with regard to literature again, on this stage during this similar -- do you like to call it's seminar, not a conference, not a festival.. >> guest: makes me feel academic which i've never really felty we have heard people say that donald trump, and perhaps others like him, if there are any -- >> guest: going to be many more. >> host: -- are not easy to sort of write about. for instance, to do a -- because he is so one dimensional, that he could not be jack stanton in "primary colors. "too you share that? >> guest: absolutely. i am planning to -- i'm writing a novel now that takes place in new york city in 1896, and i'm thinking of making -- having aer trump-like character because i really do believe he is a figury from the period before there was self-observation. he was -- i had one line the running mate which was the with unexamined life is not worth living with, and i think about donald trump, that line comes to mind when i think about donald trump. but the phenomenon of donald trump is something we have sunshine literature in past.en what was the movie with andy griffith, "a face in the crowd? the dem going who has -- demagogue who has come along and raped the public cannot unknown in american or overseas literature..in t in this case, i -- let me tell you. >> host: how about chinatown, the movie. the megalomaniac who -- >> guest: yeah. >> host: but he's interesting in a way trump is, too. but only as i said, a couple of days ago here, because of the quality of his misdirection. that whenever he is concerned -- whenever he talks about sex, don't listen. see what else is going on. his trying to lure you somewhere else.here e can i just say that, as i actually went around the country and talk to people, trump supporters, there were three, tr reasons people voted for trump, and hillary was right, there were a basket of deplorables, just pure haters who are part another it but time talking about other people. the rest of the people there were three types. one were convinced he was goingc to get them a better job. the second -- or a job. well, no. listen -- >> host: they employed? >> guest: yeah. we have unemployment 4.7%.>> know the work force par tisi temperature participation rate is lower because we're an aging population i'm psych of people saying barack obama was a failure when we saved us from am second grade depression. [applause] >> guest: i know that was a slam-dunk line. but she type were people who were more comfortable with reality tv than with reality. and they liked the way he talked. they said he takes about arabs the way we do. he is telling the truth. the key, the thing i missed that i'm really pissed off at myself about is when he slagged john mccain early on in the campaign, and his popularity ratings went up, and we were all shocked. and i realized the reason why was that people would say, well, that's a stupid thing to say but at least he speaks his mind as opposed to focus group language. that hillary uses that and the third rope. aen awful lot of people who didn't like hillary, men and, women alike, who felt they she was too staged and not authentic. >> guest: what was the question? donna didn't get -- give me that one. >> host: i'm not sure i remember. when you -- again, returning to the three things you do the three kinds of writing you do that is fiction, reporting, and column writing which i think are -- the latter two are more distinct from each other maybest than you do. do you feel -- one of the common -- what are the commonalities? did you already say? no, i didn't. the commonalities among them, are that they all involve observation, obviously, and they all involve words, and there's nothing look a good sentence. after once in a while you melee down one and say, boy issue couldn't have done that any better. usually you think, oh, god. whys are these words not cooperating with me?operat >> host: all good sentences are alike. >> guest: all bad sentences are bad each in their own way. >> host: you have a great interest in folk music i believe your first book was a biographyy woodie guthrie. >> guest: not just folk music. all musicky are you said the movie was scary or something. >> guest: john bennett, my editor at the "the new yorker," music will really mess with or whether mine. the music has been a huge part of my life because -- this i kind of at the basis of what this novel is about -- my family existed at the intersection of politics and music. my grandfather on my father's side was the jewish guy who kennedy the books to tamen in hall. my grandfather on my mothers a side was a song writer and and played the drums for dorsey and other band orange county extras and when i survived scarlet fever at the age of four, which was to big deal because they had pen sin -- penicillin and they got me an accordion and i learn how to read music before i learned words. i always thought that's another thing. thing i like most about writing is creating rhythms, fun to do it in dialogue and also fun to do it in a column. >> host: when -- do you think there's a connection between that love of music and while -- you just explained one thing, the commonality of tempo and sort of tone, but politically speaking, literarily speaking you interest in folk music in particular, strikes me as having a continuity with your interest in politics, strangely enough. >> guest: well, you know, i knew pete seger and he was a real jerk. i'm sorry. he was, and he once said, it's impossible to write a right-wing folk song. >> host: that's not a jerky thing to say. and i immediately said to him, okey from miss cooing guy. one of the greatest honors of my life was that merle haggar, when he won the national humanities award at the kennedy center, was asked who we wanted to have write the tribute to him and he said either dolly parton or joe klein, and happily they said, dolly is going to sing. >> didn't he recant oak can i from miss going can i. >> guest: he didn't. what he did was he was stone when he wrote it. it was joke. they were -- >> that's. >> host: that's what i mean. >> guest: they were in the busut and then wrote "fighting site of money which he did for the money. i'm a huge merle haggard fan and a huge country music fan, and, yeah, when wrote "payback by money second book i saw that as -- i had just written the biography of woodie guthrie, about five guys guys and i saw t as five woodie guthrie ballads in prose. so, yaw, was trying to tell a political story. just as he often did. and ever since then, i have found -- this is why die dispute the different -- that column writing is different -- there was a time back in 'ol's when i was working for new york magazine, and andrew cuomo called me up. very funny. he said that marrow and i -- mario and i had a father and son relationship which said such weird thing about him and andruw in mario. he said you're so cynical about politics, about politicians. why don't you ever write about anything positive?e? i didn't think i was all thatdn cynical because i've always been kind of a romantic, but i said, what? he said i have this welfare to work program in the bronx. you want to come see it? and i did. and it was great. it was -- still exists, called "help," and from that day forward, i decided that every emergency or two -- every month or two, just to clean my pallet of of politics every month i would write about something that work, something that was exciting there are answers to all of our problems out there. there are. and it's unfortunate that interest groups of the x-raying the left prevent us from thinking -- from the right and the left prevent us frock thinking creatively about them. >> host: i think you're one of the few journalists now over who after an evolution of point of view and silence on continues -- as you just said go out there - and especially with column writers. i won't pay you a compliment for immersing yourself in actual in the world, rather than in just in front of your computer. i think that expresses haven't. >> guest: but that was cool. rarely will politicians say something interesting to me. civilians say interesting things all the time.>> you kno it's just -- it is bracing. it's wonderful. >> host: let's see what the civilians have to say, if there are any questions. hope there's some time. this seems to me a particularly good person to ask questions of at this particular time. >> guest: we can talk about politics as well as "primary colors" as i have. was very involved with "primary colors." >> host: i want to ask you about nat. >> guest: anonymitiment. >> host: ow want to change chairs? >> guest: so everybody is random house thought it was a terrible idea to have an anonymous author. why? nobody could tour, noon do readings, no one could be interviewed. what is going on? i shared from -- because i was a graduate school dropout, sharede joe's great affection for anonymous writing as a lit rahr -- literary tradition and that was my reason for thinking this was a great idea. let's read the book and not worry.who the author is. the reason those printings estimates went down is your anonymity. did you to the that? >> host: no. >> guest: because you went colonel forward. >> guest: i dill tale few people itch told my editor at news week because you lad to tell them when you did a freelance project, and he read the book three months before it came out and said, joe, this is really funny but become can liesing this never sales. >> host: that schums upphone publishing. >> guest: there was a panic. within the offices. what are we going to do? we don't have an author. who is this person? and after the book was published, and after the couldn't find enough printing presses to manufacture the books in demand, and we actually ran behind, everyone took credit for the anonymity. harry evans, the publisher, tina brown's husband, said -- i have it on tape somewhere -- said, oh,ey, well, we knew -- i knew that would work very well. he was one of anymore people who was most insistent about gettint an author's name on it. publishing is an exercise in retroactive credit credit, taking. can i just before we -- i promised the clinton story whice relates to this. at the end of this presidency, i -- i was working for the new e the new yorker and i decide to do a piece about what hat actually been accomplished because so much space had been spent on the scandals. most of which i thought were nonexistent. most of which turn out to be nonexistent. and so i started by -- like assistant secretary level talk -- interviewing people across the government. what did you do? i was at an event at the white house and christian sonton saw meed and aknow what you're doing. way don't be part of it. so we did a long series of interview.es the piece was 22,000 words and became my book "the natural" out there in the back. and the first thing we did was two hours on healthcare and welfare. one reason i grandmotherred on to him was he was one can stop shop -- one-stop shoppinger inhe for policy.t someon and i would call him in arkansas and he way a, that guy is pretty good but you have to see the guy in tacoma. unbelievable. so we have this passion newscast. discussion for two hours about health care and welfare reform. and hillary walks in afterwardses and we are all heaving a diet coke and he is feeling great. you can always tell when he was just feeling great. someone got him. and he said so why did you write that book? i said, mr. president, alwayssaw it's a tribute to larger than life politicians, at which point the first lady snorted dericesively and said, first lady, would you rather have a larger than life president or ag smaller than life president inee and at that point she was looking at the prospect of two human beings she absolutely despised. george w. bush and al gore, being bill clinton's successor. and so she shrugged. i said, larger than life politics have longer than life strengths and larger than life weaknesses and she look at me and then looked at him and tarted to laugh and said, that's for sure. said, >> host: sorry about that. and it's a good story. >> i was clinton -- president clinton public appointed ambassador. i have been in and out of politics. >> guest: thank you. thank you. >> thank you. i want to applaud your no gotcha rule and i wish that would be universally applied. that can make a big difference. my question is this. you have talked a lot about your -- the way you pulled together information for primary colors. but did you use your investigative journalism background to inform yourself for that book? i swear i know people who must have contributed to you. i did no research at all. my research was having covered clinton for a number of years and having known him. what happened was i was having a drink with a friend in washington, a place where i only lived in mid-'70s. didn't -- i felt wait -- that i would become an it are prostitute if i had to have dinner with these people all the time.wa i wad having a drink with a friend in the administration and she said to me, these people are novel. and i didn't have to do anymore research than that. >> host: there you go. anyone else? yes. >> politics is the art of the possible, and i wonder if you would bring your perspective to what is going on today. we were lucky to have robert careow here to tell us about a president who did an enormous amount of research in order to apply his agenda to what he wanted to accomplish. i tend to think of theink presidency as a linear progression from washington up to present. hey have we taken a turn and will we come back or is this -- rather than vacillate every eight years, we ten to good left ex-then go right and go left and come back. is this different? >> there was a piece in the "wall street journal" on saturday, arguing that it is different. my honest answer is, don't know. i mean, i was -- someone asked me about the rex tillerson hearings.son he said he sounded prey good, mainstream conservative. n't isn't going to get us blown up, i don't think and wast reasonable on most of his answers. i agreed with him, disagreed with others. and i think we have to be prepared for the fact we may be looking at successful presidency here in me mind of the people. i mean, the jaw-boning he did with those companies -- and i know the numbers of jobs were small -- is very popular withit our people, and should be. john kennedy did the same thing with the steelmakers. and i think trump is sending a really important message to american corporations that will make them think twice before the leave. i'm honeverred are to -- horrified by him as a human being and what he reps. think as i said the other day, i named a character in "primary colors" after this concept. the governor of new york. gover machiavelli sat that his the greatest enemy of a rub. he is indo lens and what machiavelli was writing about was how too you keep a republic coherent when it's not at war? women, i am 70 years old, and during the past 70 years, we have had the greatest experiment in otsuo in human history. some bad times but the prosperity is unparalleled. we had a a scary cold war but none of the were -- wars we have fought has been existential and we develop other ways to entertain ourselves. and if this is the golden outage of anything, it's the golden age of marketing. and marketing is fundamentally unamerican because the founding principle of the country is that the thing we have in common as human being no matter where we came from or look like or believe, are more important than the things that divide us. the fundmental principle is marketing is you sell to the niche and we now have a thousand channels of nothing and we have a million news outlets, most of whom are sitting in their pajamas in their basement. and during that time, i think that we have lost the habits haf citizenship. we have retriballized ourselves. my daughter was a men of the mtv tribe, my tad was maybe of the espn tribe. i'm a c-span kind eye -- kind of guy. i wonder -- i worry about our coherence as acron i. we have been trying to do democracy without citizens, and you can't -- and that's just not going to work long term. so i'm really worried flint the impact that this guy is going to have on future politicians. all going think they have to beb obnoxious in order to succeed? i'm afraid a there's a whole generation of kids who learned a lesson from that election. the other thing is this. i had this thought the other day that isn't quite so terrible. i was watching howard schulte, the president of starbucks, give a speech, and i said to myself, holy shit that guy is running for president.es i think that in the past we have had --ad -- >> a trump supporter, right? >> guest: no. no. he is a -- there is a surprisinn successful chain store owner who is a trump supporter. really surprise me. >> guest: howard schulte schultz make-under sure his baristas cat get college funding. they're work on a really interesting public service project.t. i have tried to con rinse -- condition vaccine -- convinceds. him he should open a chain of starbooks. he wanted to curate my last book, charlie mike. and i realized, in the past we have had -- in the democratic party the working class and the intellectual class tract. the beer tract and wine tract. i think that in 2020, will are have he beer distract the champagne tract, that people like howard schultz and mark cuben and other performer sow crowe crosses may be throwing their hats the ring and we school whether that's a good or bad thing. >> host: other questions? yes. >> i dime the microphone because i suspect i may not be the only person in here who has forgotten the particulars of all the controversy that followed when you were -- admitted you wereu the author of "primary colors." what happened that causedow to y be suspended from ""newsweek".co >> i'm? temped to say coward disand whimsy inch case of "newsweek" it was cowardice, and both okay and don graham were appalled by that decision. what happened was that an awful lot of journalists thought i was a liar because i had denied writing it. and it's an interesting existential question. but if you write an anonymous move my feeling was -- now, first of all, if anybody had gotten hurt by the book, or hurt by the speculation, i would have come out., there was a moment early on when the focus shifted to paul begala, a very sweet identify and very, very loyal to the clintons, and i didn't want toto see paul get hurt but happily that -- paul is a clever guy ana he was able to talk his way out of it in like 30 nanoseconds. but there were an awful lot of journalists who people on the left thought it was an attack on the clinton. i was equally appall -- i weapon to the republican convention in 1996.co i went to a party hosted by the national review, a right, wing publishing where i was toasted as this hero and tell me how much of it is true? and i said, none of it. but there are an awful lot of journalists who mistake fiction writing for journalism since i am able to do both. and i want to once again come back to "new york times." this is what really pisss people off about us, journalists. and a at a certain point i was suit by a librarian in harlem who thought that she was the character of ha librarian in the iter chapter who wind up in bed with jack stanton. she sued me for $100 million. thought, why not a system a billion? the lawyer said you can't say anything itch didn't know the woman. never seen the woman.s there will photos of the even that she claimed to be part of, and she wasn't in any of them. and "the new york times" editorialized against me, ran op-ed pieces against me,in misreported, reported i did the press conference wearing groucho encloseses. a huge, huge -- or as donald would say uge -- controversy. and there were all that's -- how joe klein is finally getting his comeupans for having enter attend a million people.actu and -- >> host: million and a half actually.st a >> guest: okay. >> host: word for your pressure publish -- publisher work did prison in becomes? and in 33 other countries as well elm go to discovery g proceedings, the case gets laughed out of court, and the "times" doesn't print one word. not a word to this day. and you talk to politics about what pisses them off about journalist, most. it's that when they're accused of something, and the didn't do it, and we don't note it. can i just ran one second about beginning beginning or are we out of time? >> host: no we have some time but i want to give warn word diagnosis. i think they were terribly jealous. >> guest: well, maybe so.>> pero >> period. >> guest: i'm sure some wore. and there's nothing -- there's nothing so pieos as a journalisu scorned.at the - the things i've written any life i'm most embarrassed back about whence i got on my high horse and decried something. there aren't any horses enoughgh to do that. >> host: you can talk about y benghazi but not if there are more questions. any other questions? >> we're out of time.ne que >> host: can we take one question. >> how is hillary? >> guest: what? >> how is hillary? i don't know and i i'm -- i i'm sure she'll get in contact at a moment that she wants to. and at this point, don't know that i want to talk to her because i remember i talked to bill a lot right after he left office, and you just don't want to listen to two hours about the mark rich pardon. as for benghazi, do. >> host: let end on this note. >> guest: i watched the republican convention, and i watched this woman get up there and accuse hillary clinton of being a murderer, of murdering her son, one of the nave navy seals. i saw this widely reported. i saw -- i talked to some of my friends at fox. think fox news had a very in year, actually, if you eliminate hannity and -- i think they ran the best debate itch said whyent you guys ever tell the truth about benghazi? and i couldn't get a straight answer..ou and here's what the truth is. aimy, have you ever heard of a temporary consulate before in your life? the temporary consulate in benghazi was a pig life fig leaf. a front for the cia annex. the cia ran security there. the cia, led by one of myia mentors, david petraeus, provided the talking points that poor susan right was inflicted with. hillary clinton had absolutely nothing to -- the statute security service had absolutely nothing to do with benghazi. i'm written this three times, and yet this myth isyth is perpetuated, and i -- you know, guess this is a depressing way to end this bus this is what i'm most scared about. i'm most scared about the fate of the truth. t and i can criticize hillary about an awful lot of things. and an awful lot of policies. but the idea that someone could have that happen to them in this country, where you are accused of murdering people, and you had nothing to do with it, and the press doesn't call you -- call those people on it, is to me a the most terrifying thing out there right now.yi [applause] >> host: thank you. >> guest: thank you all very much.ha i'll be signing backs out back. >> host: me, too. >> we have book-signings, with we have joe klein and others any lobby signing poocks for you. >> next up on booktv, from the 35th annual key west literary seminary, author and yale professor, steven carter. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [applause] ... >> thank you so much. my name is arlo haskell, and i am the executive director of the key west literary seminar. [applause] before i get started, let me make just one quick housekeeping announcement. we're going to do the question and answer session a little bit differently today. there will be stationary mics in each aisle, and if you would like to ask a question, you should get up out of your seat and come to the mic and ask your question. when we get to that point. okay. it is a pleasure to welcome you all to the san carlos institute and to the 35th annual key west literary seminar, revealing power: the literature of politics. this sunday afternoon session is free and open to the public. this is our gift to the community. and it wouldn't be possible without the gifts that many others have made to us that support our operations throughout the year. i'd particularly like to thank peggy whose support makes this free sunday public session possible. thank you. [applause] and in addition to all of you who are here joining us in key west on this warm january afternoon, i'd like to welcome those of you who are watching at home on television on c-span's booktv.