Thing what it meant to Frederick Douglass, you know. While you can have the general celebration and everything, we have a different perspective from the africanamerican community. This was a long history to understand exactly the distinction in terms of the celebration for one community and the kind of lack of observers on the other part of the community. What does it mean to people who have a history of bondage, history of segregation, a history of jim crow is him. You have to understand that kind of sensitivity that might be distinct from one community to another. Obviously when you Start Talking about this history of this country and the role of africanamericans in terms of providing that celebration, thats a whole other question. Because we been in the forefront of the socalled battle for freedom, justice and liberty in this country from day one, from day one. Going back to chris come in terms of the socalled boston massacre, since that moment, and you can look at it across the years, the matter what kind of incident or what kind of turmoil or conflict or battle or world war that this country was involved in, you found the contribution of africanamericans. Certainly Frederick Douglass was saying at that time, he says what does it mean to the slave in this country, your socalled celebration . We always had to keep that might in terms of how we approach this particular holiday. Host in your autobiography of the people book, i think you sit in there that 5000 africanamericans fought in the revolutionary war. Guest exactly. And some of those, most aerobically i always think about one of the individuals that stand out, of course solomon, peter salem, peter blackman, basel lulu stanza because he was a flute player in terms of you always see this here image of the revolutionary war where three people are marching to drum, the flute player. At that time a five player come so wha else holding a black and everything. Well, that player babel couldve been basel lulu engines of the conservation that he made providing the kind of musical inspiration and that those been a part of our struggle in this country, almost inseparable for the people who were wielding the guns and going out to battle picky look at the civil war, if you look at the Civil Rights Movement, too. There again the music is very important. But here is the vectoring the revolutionary. Who is providing the kind of instrumentation, the martial music of that day as well as picking up again at some point so you actually write in terms of the contribution not only from an army standpoint but also in the naval situation. They were black naval participants in that wore the same time. So thats the beginning. At the beginning in terms of understanding this whole history, the odyssey, the evolution of participation of blacks in the military in this country. Host there are two separate issues going on in the u. S. . Guest i think thats always been true, peter. Almost from the beginning and i think when you look at it from the origins of the country and going back to the first africans that was brought here and understanding the treatment that they received, the distinction i would always understand like the indentured servants who were brought in, the whole 1619 and going back to the mayflower compact of 1620. Look at the history of black people in the state of new york and particularly in the summer of new york, even in detroit for that matter because like a microcosm of the history of black people, and understanding these two separate societies are being shaped, and at very dramatic moment in our history that separation is sharpened by conflict. We can talk about it in terms of the rebellion of 1967. We could talk about the kerner report of 1968 when it begins to talk about these two societies out there, one black and one white moving almost inevitably toward the conflict that is cratered and the tensions, the. Host becomes as result of those distinctions, the kind of separate treatment, the restricted covenants, the unemployment, the lack of unemployment opportunities for African American people. All of this year adds into this here notion of two separate communities, two separate societies, almost two separate countries that we have inside of these United States of america. So there is that kind of separation thats almost from the beginning, and whether or not we can ever kind of mollified that and bring the securities together, well, thats what weve struggling about over the years in terms of from the emancipation days right on down to the Current Situation where we look at the differences in the treatment of africanamericans particularly from a Police Department in this country. Host herb boyd come in your book black panthers for beginners coheres of the dedication. To the fallen panthers who dared to challenge what other worlds most oppressive government. Guest the black Panther Party is almost emblematic of this here resistance, the reluctance to go along with the status quo, to speak out, to speak truth to power, to pick up a gun even, to do something about the oppression that they were experiencing. The black panthers from the beginning was a very Interesting Development for me because it was working with lance come an opportunity for us to graphically present other than the kind of academic stuff that had been done over the years. Lance was illustrative of the book, and he did a remarkable job of capturing the kind of, the role of the panthers. What i try to do with the narration is kind of mesh the kind of graphic interpretation that he had in mind, and we went back and forth on that, but at last i think he just demonstrated an ability to absorb the kind of imagery that it presented that an Emory Douglas had also who was the graphic artist, who was the eldest should come who was at the kind of cultural commissar of the black Panther Party at that time. So what were trying to do there is kind to give another prescriptive on some of the treatises and the memoirs and, of course, theyre just absolutely, their endless beginning with bobby seale and human newton and Eldridge Cleaver and kathleen cleaver, all these individuals, erika huggins, that put our books about the Panther Party. So really its just our contribution to that, but giving it another angle in terms of particularly for Young Readers out there who are just being introduced to the panther. Heres way because many of them are coming out of their visual experience counseling is an opportunity for us to give you kind of visual representation of the black Panther Party. Host i think some people may take with you referring to the u. S. As one of the worlds most oppressive governments try to which one . Host in your dedication, you dedicate it to the panthers who dared to challenge one of the worlds most oppressive governments. Guest yeah, well, i think we are talking about one of the worlds most oppressive governments. That was certainly their perspective on it. Thats how they did it come at d the move with that particular understanding. So i dont argue with their particular interpretation. I tried find out what t did they mean in terms of how did they deliver, what was the reaction to this oppressive government. The reaction across the country was a very violent. , probably one of the most violent times in our nations history in terms of what is happening out of the africanamerican community. And voicing their resistance. This is an outrage, and outcry coming from them here sometimes i guess in terms of expressing our resistance it takes on these very violent turns, and thats not the first time. We have many, many elements of black people fighting back. Thats pretty much a kind of untold story about africanamerican history. The whole sense of resistance, the idea that we kind of just went along with the way things were. No way. I have come in my study of African American and american history, ive kind of highlighted some of the moments in which that resistance took a very, very violent forms. Of course with the black Panther Party, that was the most traumatized aspect of it. Television is available. You have these charismatic individuals, the whole presentation that they had, the swagger, the address, the black beret, wearing a leather jackets and everything. They kind of our marching a very different beat. We talk about marshaling a resistance against this Oppressive Society that youre talking about. So that was at their perspective on it, peter. We may have argued with it. They were different organizations out there who had different strategies, proposing to bring kind of tactics as well as philosophical and ideological approaches to that Oppressive Society. But they wanted to dramatize it in such a way that sometimes even saying that out of the barrel of the gun, picking up the whole redbook that they did on point, the mousey tongue approach to. That was a revolutionary practice mousey tongue it was not unique for the black Panthers Party figures kind of all overcome is a universal, a global expression of resistance. They picked it up. The winds have changed come is blowing across the african continent. Kind of liberation movements of emotion there. Fight against portuguese colonialism for example, to fight against was going on in south africa or what was happening in other parts of the continent, algeria, though algerian revolution. So those kind of things were in the air so we picked it up, gained the same cut a say in terms of moving against this Oppressive Society. That chapter do it in a mile away because its a john brown said that the way you can purge the land with a blood. Host where the panthers natural heir to Marcus Garvey . Guest not exactly. What you have to understand, i think they were more than natural errors of malcolm x. And theres a connection there. Very interesting because you have to get to malcolm and going back for a get to marcus. Because malcolm, his parents were garvey ites, right . And they picked from being members of the u. N. A comment universal negro improvement association, the whole movement at that time that grew up of the 1900 \20{l1}s{l0}\20{l1}s{l0} more or less. Because at one point in 1922 u. S. Almost like 6 million members of the Garvey Movement are here in this country and across the caribbean in particular. So thats really the connection the panthers have is with malcolm x because malcolm was assassinated in february 211965. The Panther Party came into existence almost like a year later, you know, and october of 1966, boom, it was fully blown out in Oakland California other although many people feel also elements of it develop right in harlem. So that was a certain kind of energy and inspiration, influence, tactically that they picked up from malcolm x. So if theres any kind of direct connection between the panthers and any precedent, thinker or movement, there would probably be, probably be malcolm x. Host in your collection of essays about malcolm x, by any means necessary we live in a short memory culture, White Supremacy is the system that dominates black life from cradle to grave. Therefore, black life is seldom formally taught in our institutions and even less discussed informally. Guest he is absolutely right. I should also add without particular publication is that i have others with me. Then i got three doctors here with me, i had to keep those doctors with me. And believe the book is a reaction to the very, very controversial biography of malcolm x. We put our Heads Together on that and said something had to be said to counter some of the conclusions that manny had reached in his book. So what it happened, i read Something Like 75 reviews, and i approached the other three coeditors of their and propose the idea, of course the book is published by third world press, and so he was very, very, something has to be done because we are kind of the sons of malcolm. We figure that what he had his say, what man had to say and, of course, you know i love manny and i really stood right with him across the years but we have some differences we came to his interpretation. We figured last expressing her rather than personal expressing why do we round up all of these different other thinkers about it. And for the most part its people who are taking a position to what manny had to say in so many respects. It may not be there at this point to try to summarize exactly whats happening with that. That was a very, very complicated and very involved process in terms of understanding what manny was saying, what are reacting to . What are some the problems that he presented . When youve got some 35 different writers there and for the most part they are counted those against what manny has to say, of course we bring some in there who support them, too, try to some kind of balance. But what he is talking about is that we have an absence in terms of comity goes back to black studies, celebration of black studies, peter, is that we were saying some things back in the 1960s that we were not being properly reflected in the education system, to curriculums and what have you in this country. Something had to be done about that. And we all grew out of the period in which black studies was very pivotal in terms of educating and getting a perspective and understanding and analysis, a very critical analysis of what was going on from an educational standpoint in this country. And he had been like a superb teacher. A superb publisher, a magnificent poet. It was really basically his idea that picked up and made this project work for us. So i felt very comfortable in having anything he proposed in terms of analysis about society. I just talked to him the other day and the whole projects hes involved with now in terms of dealing with adult trump administration. So that continues that same type of legacy and desire to bring about change in our society. Host and by any means necessary came out in 2012, and con hasse coats before he wrote his National Book awardwinning book has an essay in there as well. Well, you mean in terms of the american book award . Host National Book award, right. But you have an essay in here. Guest my goodness, what a remarkable young man, you know. You have to go back and read his essay in terms of how he deals in very kind of like a balanced approach to it. Tanehisi book between, thats been a phenomenal thing out there, put him right out there on front street you might say. And rightly so. I think hes a very, very cogent, very insightful commentator on the times and he think he captured the spirit particularly for the next generation thats coming along, picking up some things that some of the older folks, the eldest put forward in that particular publication. I know his father very well, paul, was a Publisher Black classic press. Over the years of course hes a former panther hensel. Talk about the black Panther Party. Paul was a member. We say the fruit never falls that far from the tree, and tanehisi has picked up a number of the elements of the previous generation and incorporated into his understanding of whats happening right now in our society. And it was always just a joy to work with him. I mean, he blurb black detroit for me, so we have this continuing relationship and i have tremendous respect for him and what he is doing out there. They kind of threw him into i think some of the other people who began to see them as the second coming, you know, of James Baldwin, i dont know if thats absolute therefore him, he kind of disavows it to a certain extent, but i know what they are saying. They are saying we finally have someone who has the same sensibility, that same sensitivity in terms of what we are as a people. And what needs to be said, what needs to be done, you know, speak truth to power. I think he carries on that tradition. He has a similar eloquence. He has a similar perspective assert analysis, at the same time, command of words thats very important because thats what baldwin was. He lived in the whole command about literature and how to present that in such a way that it could resonate for just the ordinary person out there, but also for those academics out there who require all a bit moe in terms of your presentation. So its kind of strike a nice balance between what you call the street folks who can connect up with some of those ideas at the same time some of the academics who really demand a little bit more rigor and intellectual inquiry. Host herb boyd, he wrote a biography of James Baldwin, came out in 2008, baldwins harlan victor seems to be a resurgence in discussions and the reputation of James Baldwin. Is that fair . Guest no doubt about it. No matter where you look you have baldwin. I was looking at Sonya Sotomayor who is one of our jurists, the supreme court, and she was quoting James Baldwin. Theres a film that made the rounds called im not your negro, very fine homemaker, the study did on significantly important. I had an opportunity to address that particular film at, in pittsburgh at the film and Arts Festival to talk about the significance of baldwin again, you know, the fire next time. They have like 304 publications out there that kind of play off the title of James Baldwin from that variance. Those essays, pituitary essays that comprise the fires next time, is baldwin had his magisterial best. This is the epitome of James Baldwin in terms of addressing the kind of inequities that exist in our society. This is superb, supreme baldwin i understand people going back