Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth 20160501 : comparemela.com

exciting to find the figures like adam clayton powell junior, sugar ray robinson, and thur-good marshall who were not born into mainstream society and who by dent of their enormous talent and gift sticks themselves into the fabric of the country via entertainment, politics, sports, or in marshall's case the law, in the case of the white house butler, extra ordinary service to the country. these figures, when i look back at the figures, society, culture, race and style. >> gues >> guest: there is legislation that congress powell, and sammy davis junior integrated nightclubs in the 1940's across the country. armstrong and linda horn and sammy davis, junior, and sugar ray robinson who fought the mob in new york who controlled the fight game. he wanted to give fighters some independence, himself especially. and of course, many epic cases that he fought before the united states victory, with the 1954 school segregation case with brown versus board of education. when you look at all of these men, you look at the story of 20th century america and how it matured and was forced to mature because of the figures. >> host: i want to show video of someone you mentioned and have you explain what you have seeing. >> ms. reagan is leaving after 34 years. you have been here so long and served so many people all over the world. you have supervised their service, and everybody is happy, so i think something invited me and my wife to the state dinner and it didn't bother me because i am used to serving and my wife and i saw a lot, and by the end, i was waiting on the table and told a friend to be careful and make sure he keep an eye on her and don't let her drink it all. >> hosost: who was that? >> guest: that was eugene alan. a great white house butler. i wrote a story about him in 2008 that appeared on the cover of the "washington post." really one of the most neat people -- i met him and his wife before the election. it was amazing how i met him. i was a national writer for the "washington post" and on the campaign trail with then senator obama. i was in north carolina. i walked outside, and three ladies were crying and they said they were crying because their fathers had kicked them out of their homes because they supported the african-american candidate on stage. the three young ladies were college students and they were white. it was a powerful moment. i said wow, even though hillary clinton was still in the race in 2008 at that time, obama had started this epic movement and some of it was manifested in the tears of those three young girls who were crying. in the middle of the night in my hotel room i said he is going to win. he is going to climb that big, hard mountain and he is going to take this country to a level where race and your imagination intersect. i ran back to the newsroom and told my editor, this guy, senator obama is going to win and break history. my editor, steve, thought i was just too tired. that i was exhausted. and i said no, steve, please listen to me. he is going to win and because he is going to win i want to go wherever i have to go and find an african-american who worked in the service job before the 1964 civil rights bill was passed so this african-american, who i kind of figured was out there who had worked in the white house before legal integration, it would mean so much to him or her to see an african-american, who i predicted, would take the white house. looking back it does sound like a bit of a fable because steve had to have faith in me that i would find such a person. i started looking. i was looking for somebody that did the laundry at the white house, somebody who worked in the rose garden at the white house, or the person who shined shoes or a maid, and the last word dropped off my lips or a butler. i don't know why, i knew no butlers in life, but it just rolled out. i started making phone calls. the first people i called was the white house and they said they don't divulge personal information about who has or hasn't worked there. and i said did abe lincoln every work there? and that made be keep looking on and 20 phone calls turned into 30 and then somebody calls out of the clear blue from tampa, florida as it were, and says that there was a gentlemen by the name of eugene alan who she knew worked at the white house for two presidents and heard i was looking because her daughter was at a party in georgetown with me. this is how it works for journalist. you have to knock on doors and let people know you are looking for. there was a man named eugene alan who worked for the president and i should try to find him. on the 57th call a man was on the other end of the phone, i said i am mr. haygood, i am a journalist working on a story, and we are five days from the election, and the african-american senator who the girls were crying for got the nomination and there was one epic step to take. i told mr. alan i wanted to come over and talk about his life because i had heard he worked for two presidents and he said you got that wrong. i worked for eight presidents. harry truman to ronald reagan. that is eight. and of course, you know, i went over and spent this amazing time with him and his wife and wrote that story about this man who worked in the white house and saw history move in front of his eyes. >> host: this was a little reverse because you wrote the article, thene the movie came out, then the book. >> guest: yes, it was. >> host: how did that work? >> guest: the story was written and then the movie producer produced the "spider man "movies. she reached me by phone and said the story made her cry and see wanted to buy the writes and make a movie. -- rights. so it is best not to hop up and down when someone from hollywood calls, you know, for the simple fact, who knows if something will ever get made. so she was insistent and she came to washington, d.c. to visit me with williams, her assistant at the time. now pam williams has her own company. but she was telling me about the movie directors who were interested in this story about this man who had worked at the white house and saw a whole lot of change in the country. and then lord dies and iary nothing. everybody in hollywood who i had been talking to goes silent. and williams, tila johnson, who was the co-founder of bet, they ban together and bring in lee daniels the director. they start raising money and all of a sudden pam williams calls me and says hey, we found the actor who is going to play the butler. i am at home, sitting on my sofa eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and i said who is it going to be for she said forest whittaker. and she calls a day later saying guess what? we found the butler's life. and i said who is that going to be? and she said are you sitting down and she said sit down. oprah winfry. and i said pam, you are pulling my leg, now. oprah winfry hasn't acted in 17 careers and she is going to play the butler's wife -- years. and she said yes, oprah loves the story that much. and other cast members fell into place. i went down to new orleans where we were filming and this is going to get back to your question. i am standing on the movie set and all of these actors are walking around in between a scene and there is jane fonda, there is terence howard, there is cuba gooding, junior, there is lee sheber, and are of these great actors. i just see it. and i just said it, nobody really -- i just said it musing almost. i said my goodness somebody should write a book to capture the moment of all of this talent on the movie set making the movie about a butler and his wife. and terence howard happened to be walking by and he said you are the writer you ought to write the book. and that is how the butler book was born. that actor put the idea inside me. when i got home to washington, d.c. i was able to get in touch with a book editor, dawn davis, and she wanted to do it and i started writing the book. >> it went from article, movie, to book. how true from what you learned from ms. and mr. alan was the movie? >> i learned a lot about the movie making business. there was a screen writer who wrote a beautiful script and lee daniels told me i want to tell your story and open it up and cover it. lee daniels, the director, wanted to do this. he had this family, the story was going to be anchored to this family and there were changes but the theme of the whole movie i feel stayed true to the story. there was one big difference. charles, the son of the butler, he did go to vietnam but survived and in the movie he died. in real life, there was only one son and in the movie there were two. >> host: did alan share stories about the presidents he worked with? >> guest: yeah, he was a bit, how can i put it, he was a bit shy in certain cases, but yes, he did. he saw this life played out through the bills and legislation being passed. it meant something to him when eisenhower passed the civil rights bill, it went something with president kennedy went to uv and talked about the historic clashes at ole miss and james meredith and trying to integrate the school, it meant something to him when dr. king visited the white house, it meant something to him when news floated into the white house that there had been a big clash in little rock over the school integration measure. so all of these presidents did something at one time that stood out to him. he said something that was very touching about president kennedy. he was overseas, i think in switzerland, and this would have been maybe 1962 and mr. alan had about six hours off that day and he wanted to go into this little town and get a gift for his wife and the store clerk, he had $100 bill or a large bill in their currency, and the store clerk told him that she didn't have change and wanted to go across the street. he was the only person in the store. she wanted him to watch the store for her. he told me, he said, 1962, in georgetown, store clerk most likely would not have asked me to watch their store while they went down the street. he said and that type of dignity bestowed upon them almost brought tears to his eyes. and of course he said if anybody would have come in and tried to harm her store in any way he would have fought them he said to the death. and that is just a lovely little moment about, you know, history, what he took from his travels around the world with these presidents. >> guest: wil haygood, he seemed according to your book, have somewhat of a special relationship with eisenhower and reagan. >> guest: yes, he did. i think with the eisenhower connection, mr. alan's son, charles, was going to school in 1954 and the epic brown v board of education decision came down from the supreme court deseg grating the school system. so you have a father, who is a butler walking into the white house, looking at this president knowing that socially the nation now is about to shift. of course that took three years and that came about in little rock, arkansas at central high school in the fall of 1957 when the nine black children walked into the school and they were pelted with mobs and racial epitit and it was a horrific day for these school children. mr. alan had to see that and he had to wonder would something like this happen to my son and what are you going to do, mr. president? of course he would not dare ask president eisenhower that but that had to be on his mind. will my child be hurt? this is a unanimous decision by the supreme court and the buck stops with you. i am sure mr. alan was looking in an extra sensory way for the country and the white house to put the weight behind the supreme court decision. and president eisenhower did and sent the troops into little rock to protect the children. to be a parent up close with a man who did that, must have been a very magical moment for him, and president eisenhower painted an oil portrait after that and gave it to mr. alan as a gift. when president eisenhower was out of the white house he would invite mr. alan to go golfing with him. man to man, would you like to play golf, and that must have been a beautiful thing. >> host: he ddid he live to see president obama inaugurated? >> yes, the transition of the president elect came. they saw the story and sent a vip inviitation to mr. alan and to his son to go to the swearing in. we went on that cold morning, mr. alan, my son charles, and me, and it was cold and you could take the subway so far but then you had to walk. we were walking and mr. alan was breathing very heavily, he was elderly and frail, and i felt bad and i said mr. alan, i think that we should stop. i think there is a lot of heavy pain inside of him aside from his elements. but he looked at me when i said that and he said you hold my right arm, and looked at his son and said charles, you hold my left arm, and just don't let me drop because i am not turning around. it hit me why i wanted to do such a story in the first place. a man who had seen what he had seen, who had been born and raised in the south, and now this moment. so, we were taking or shown our vip seats and the living presidents who he had served under walked out and he was talking about them as if they were his friends. there is president conner over there, he is looking okay. and you know, there is president bush, good man. things like that. he said with the nation's first african-american president, mr. alan, the butler who started in the basement at the white house as a pantry man looked at me and said when i was in the white house, you could not even dream that you could dream of a moment like this. he used the word dream twice. it was very, very touching. he had saw so much in his life and was living to see with his own eyes an african-american at the highest oath for the highest office in the great united states of america. >> host: from your book the butler, looking back over my own writing it seems eugene alan was a cap stone to the fascinating figures i had interviewed in the years past who had a link to turmoil inside the white house. >> guest: yes. i mean, i can just look at the life of thurgood marshall who was the naacp attorney who dreamed of the naacp legal fund beg a separate arm from the naacp to fight legal cases roughly throughout the american south but on the east coast, west coast and midwest. on the day president johnson nominated marshall to the supreme court in 1967 there were three butlers in the white house and one of those butlers was eugene alan. the law had stopped mr. alan from doing things. in the '50s, we saw the law elevating the life of mr. alan. that day in 1967, there was history, there was the majesty there in the white house of mr. alan serving marshall. congressman, you were a warier and sammy davis junior was a warrior in the arena of entertainment, sugar ray robins robinson, marshall was an warier in the realm of law. and then you have a genuine patriot, mr. alan, you know, who served people and was unknown, had no fame, his only fame was that he worked under the american flag at 1600 pennsylvania avenue every day. he never missed a day of work, loved the presidents. i asked him during my time spent with him if he was a democrat or republican and he said you can just put down that i am an american. that is good enough. put that into story. it was lovely. >> host: june 13th, 1967, here is some videos: >> he is solicitor general marshall, the best known negro lay lawyer of the country. ... the first of this race so honored. >> host: why did he pick thurgood marshall? >> guest: i think the president johnson had a great sense of reverence for the company, and so he seized a moment in history. i think he had -- had done a lot of work to get to 1964 civil rights bill passed, and then came to 1965, voting rights act, i think, the president johnson said, if i can find a brilliant african-american jurist to integrate the united states supreme court, then that would be the final nail in the coffin of white supremacy. ever since george washington started nominating the supreme court justices, they had all been white men, and so for many people it was unthinkable that one of the nine would be an african-american, and marshall had thought that -- he won 29 cases before the u.s. sprem court. most lawyers never get one victory in front of the supreme court, so his place had already been made in history. he had been a federal appeals court judge and the solicitor general, and lyndon johnson, i think, knew, if i can make this happen, it will be a dazzling moment in the nation's history. and it will be something that is both right and righteous, and he started shifting the gears before that moment and made it happen. oddly enough there was no vacancy when lyndon johnson started thinking of it, and he had to convince associate justice tom clark to step down, it was very shrewd how he did that and, explain it in the book. i can tell you quickly if you would like. lyndon johnson was master of the senate, of course, as he has been called by the great writer robert karrow. he was, and so he called tom clark, who johnson had known because they were friends in texas. they were both from texas and they had known each other, and lyndon johnson is thinking, thurgood marshall, supreme court, no vacancy, what can i do? and he said, tom, i want to appoint your son, ramsey, attorney general. goodness, i can't do it because you're on the supreme court, and a lot of people would see a conflict of interest, and, my goodness, he is your only son, and i know that dynamics of father-son, and i know how much you love that boy, and i know your wife, and i know it would be great for ramsey to have this great position, but i just want you to know, i can't do it. my hands are tied. it's a shame. and tom clark says, president jobson, my goodness. is there anything i can do? then president johnson said, why, yes, there is. don't know, but goodness gracious, i well tell you this, if you weren't on the court, that would make my worry good away, this conflict of interest thing goes right out the window. but i'm not telling you what to do, tom. that's your only boy, your only son, i know you love him. so tom clark went home and surprised his family and said, everybody, i'm stepping down from the court. and all of a sudden there was a vacancy, and lyndon johnson -- he didn't even tell other senators. he wanted it to be a surprise. unlike in today's environment, hints are leaked out. no, didn't happen with thurgood marshall, it really was a stealth appointment, very quiet and sir repetitious, -- moments before he walked out into the rose garden he called some senators and said, i'm appointing thunder good marshall right now. click, and would hang up the phone. no time for rebuttal. hold on, mr. president. wait a minute. no. he wasn't going to hear it. and so that's how it happened. >> host: from your book "showdown" no justice had come to the high court with the background thurgood marshall possessed. he was evangelist on behalf of the law. >> guest: he was him looked across the country, starting in the mid-'30s, and he figured that in order to bring equality or a sense of equality into the law, i'm going to have to start filing lawsuits and suing jurisdictions. i'm going to have to go into texas and file a lawsuit for voter rights and that's what he did in the famous case called something i v. allright, which meant that now blacks could vote in the all-white democratic primary. before they couldn't. thurgood marshall changed that. he went into st. louis and achieved a big housing victory, which translated to shelly v. kramer, and that case meant that people could no longer sell their house with a deed that would say you can't sell this to somebody who is black or jewish. that was thurgood marshall's imprint. brown v. board of education. he integrated the university of texas law school, a lovely story. thunder in marshall's mother, who is a school teacher, wanted him to go to the university of maryland school of law, and marshall, from baltimore, and mother just dreamed of that day. my son is smart enough to become the first black to be admitted to the university of maryland. marshall knew that they wouldn't accept him because he was black, but he went to howard university law school in washington, graduated number one in his class, and then marshall went and found a gentleman by the name of donald murray, and said, mr. murray, i want you to apply to the university of maryland school of law. and mr. murray said, well, mr. marshall, i -- why in the world would i do that? they're not going to accept a black applicant. and thurgood marshall said, i know it. do it, they'll turn you down, and i'll sue them. and that's how i'll get you in. just like that it happened. thunder good marshall sued the university of maryland school of law. donald murray got admitted and thurgood marshall escorted him to class on the first day, dared anybody to mess with him. thurgood marshall was a pretty tall, gutsy guy, and that is really -- that's talking the talk and walking the walk at the same time. >> host: the book is called "showdown" for a reason. another quote from your book, referring to james eastland, democrat from mississippi. mississippians loved him because he was doing exactly what they had sent him to the u.s. senate to do. to maintain those cotton prices, to keep the negro down. >> guest: yes. i went to mississippi to do research on james eastland's family legacy, and looked through his papers, and found a lot of very harsh statements that he had made about blacks in world war ii. he called them cowards. he said this on the floor of the u.s. senate. and he had an analyst for their good marshall because marshall had upended the ways of the southern senators who were on the committee who were going to be judging him. john mcclelland of arkansas, senator strom thurmond of south carolina, sam irvin of north carolina, and james eastland of mississippi. these were the men who had signed the southern manifesto, which was manifesto to keep at the democratic party white. these are southern democrats. and so eastland was very perturbed that president johnson gave him no warning about the nomination because eastland now had to get a strategy very quickly to thwart, to stop marshall's nomination. so he wouldn't tell the white house what day the hearings would be held, sort of echoing what is going on now. but the hearings finally were held, and some of the questions from eastland evoked some of the questions that blacks would be asked who were trying to vote. i mean, how many jelly beans are in the jar. how many soap bubbles in that little bowl of water over there. strange, unnerving questions like that. and the white house knew that it had a battle on it hands, especially because thunder good marshall was nominated at a time of great unrest in the country. there wereride riots in baltimore and newark and cincinnati and various towns and cities down south, and so the southern senators were saying that thurgood marshall was soft on crime, and on the last day of his hearing, there was the epic riot in detroit, and it really sent shivers through the white house because here was this black man who they were trying to nominate to the supreme court, and they were somehow tying thunder in marshall to the unrest in detroit, and it was really a tense moment for the white house. but in trying -- you know, in writing the book, one thing that i really wanted to do was to give a full alleged picture of these southern senators i did not want to portray them as cardboard racist figures, although they certainly held horrible views about race. senator sam irvin, north carolina. he traveled a lot, and he would go to vintage book stores around the country, and he was a bibliophile. he collected books. his wife would see him coming and say, sam, not again. 20 more hardback books under his arm. and he came to own 30,000 books. and somebody had written a line -- i many not somebody -- actually it was me if wrote this line in the book, and it says: in none of the books that he collected, books about law, books about politics, about history, could sam irvin find any justification for equality for the black man, and john mcclelland, the senator, arkansas, i went out to a small college in arkansas, where his papers were, and looked at them. from the last day of this visit, i came across a letter from a lady named barbara ross, and i'm reading the letter, and it stops me in my tracks. this was a letter sent to the senator's office, and she said, and i quote from the letter, she said: chances are that the nomination of thurgood marshall will be turned down, but i beg you, senator, to open up your heart and let the prejudice go, and give thurgood marshall a fair vote. i wish to tell you that if he doesn't make it on to the supreme court, there will be other african-american nominees, and you won't be able to stop them all. i also would like to tell you, senator, that one of these days the president of the united states will be a negro, end quote. and i couldn't move. i read that letter and i couldn't move. literally i just sat there at that desk in this research library. remember it was a friday night, and it was getting ready to close, and i saw that letter and i knew that letter was going to play a part in my book, and it is at if she predicted president obama. who was barbara ross? from the letter it said, do not answer. so the senator's office had no intention to even send this woman, whoever she might be, even a form letter. she did not deserve even from there way of thinking a form letter. and so i couldn't shake it, and i was telling people about it. told my sister about this letter, and she said, my goodness, you have to find a member of her family when the book comes out to tell them about this letter inure book. i told my sister, well, yeah. that is a good idea. and so i thought deeply about it, and the letter had an address. 2103 delware street, texas texarkana, arkansas, and i called the city clerk and said, my name is will hay goode. i just wrote a book about thurgood marshall's battle to be on the supreme court in the book i quote a letter from one--time resident by the name of barbara ross. my book will be out very shortly; i told her -- this was like six months ago -- and i said there is any way i can find an heir, any relative that this miss barbara ross might have in texarkana. the city clerk says the name doesn't ring a bell. let me ask around and i'll get back to you. and so in about five to six days she called back, left a voice message on my landline phone and said, mr. hey haygood call this number. and when somebody says that to a journalist, you really get more than also excited. so i dialed the number, and this voice answered and just said, hello, and i said, hi, ma'am. my name is wil haygood. i just wrote a book about thurgood marshall's 1967 confirmation hearings, and i quote a letter by a lady named barbara ross. and somebody over at the texarkana city clerk's office told me to call this number because i'm trying to find any family members of mrs. ross so i can tell them this letter is in the book. she says, my name is barbara ross. and i'm sort of taken aback, and i said, oh, really, huh. were you named after her or something? and she said, really? i was 19 years old. i was home from college that summer, and i heard a snippet on the radio that the senators were giving mr. marshall a hard time. and i told my mama and my daddy that i wanted to write a letter to senator mcclelland, and my daddy said, don't do that. might get the family in trouble. but the next day, when my daddy went off to work, my mama walked over to me and said, go write your letter. and i wrote that letter, and it was mind boggling to me to be talking to the writer of the letter and is a said, the address -- because i was now holding the letter in my hand. the address was on the, he 2103 delware street, and i wanted to test her. i said, mrs. ross, can you recall where you were living at that summer of 1967, when those hearings were taking place? she said of course if was living with mama and daddy at 2103 delware street. i said, my goodness. i said, mrs. ross, first let me apologize that you did not get a response from your senator. obviously you're a parent, pay taxes, and you deserved a response, even a form letter, and i know you didn't get it because this letter says "do not answer." well, i said, mrs. ross, history has a way of sometimes working out rather beautifully. not only is there an african-american in the white house, as you know, but your letter is going to be in my book, and i will send you a copy of the letter in the book as soon as it's published, and so i'm very happy to say that mrs. barbara ross of texarkana, pro predicted president obama's election in the midst of the thurgood marshal battle now has a copy of "show down" in her house. >> host: is she white or black. >> guest: she's black. >> host: her dad was scared she would get in trouble. >> guest: yes, yes. before we got off of the phone, we talked for about 45 minutes. the said, tell me, what is it really like working with oprah winfrey on the movie? >> host: what was it like working with oprah winfrey? >> guest: i don't want to sound -- oh -- jaded, but it was quite special. i mean, i'd never met her. and i later found out that when the story came out, she was in chicago in her office, and somebody handed her the story i had written, and she read and it said, goodness gracious, if there's ever a movie made about this story, i sure want to be part of it. goodness. she said that in 2008. didn't start filming until 2012. so, something about the story touched her, and i remember the first time i met her, lee daniels, the director -- we were at an old bus station in new orleans, filming the scene when this butler's son is getting ready to go off to college. the butler's son played by david yellow wolf, great actor, who signed to play sugar ray robinson. so, anyway, lee daniels escorted me across the way to meet miss winfrey, and she was very busy. she was -- actually getting ready to film the first scene, and lee said, oprah, i'm going to introduce you to wil haygood, and she said, hello, wil, very quiet. and that was it. then i walked back across the floor. well, the next day, we're in this area where lunch is being served, and i'm in line, getting my meal, and i hear this voice that says, wil! hey, wil! and then i sort of self-confidently said, that sounds like oprah winfrey. i hope she's not calling me. why does she want me? why is she calling me? and she said it again, only this time louder. and i turn around and she said, come over here, and i go over to her table, and it's just me and her having lunch on this movie set, and she wanted to know all about the butler, how i found the butler. she wanted to know about the butler's life, and told me why the story meant so much to her, which i think is nice to mention. hollywood movies about the civil rights movement, of course they have been scant, very few and far between. in the history of hollywood, there are movies -- slave movies, and then movies modern movies. it's almost as if the '40s and '50s and black culture -- '30s, '40s, and '50s, and black culture has been absent, vacant from the screen, and there were a lot of people in the '50s who laid the groundwork for the civil rights movement. mr. and mrs. allen used to send money to the selma marchers in the late '50s when rosa parks was refusing to give up her seat on the bus, and so these were the quiet warriors, putting five dollars in the mail, sending it to dr. king's church, or to some other black church had had been burned in florida. maids and butlers did this. they went into their wallets, they sent the money down south. my own grandmother, and mother, both born in selma, alabama, and that is a part of hoyt you can't really ever escape. if you're dreaming for the next generation. and oprah has said that it was so important to honor those people, the maids and the butlers and the factory workers, who were african-american, who gave a dollar here, dollar there, to the civil rights movement, because it would not have endured or survived without them. >> host: good afternoon and welcome to booktv on c-span2. this is our monthly in-depth program. one author, his or her body of work. this month, author and journalist wil haygood. this is about a trip down the mississippi river. king of the cats, came out in 1993. the haygoods of columbus, ohio, love story, 1997. in black and white, the life of sammy davis, jr., 2003. sweet thunder, the life and times of sugar ray robinson, and the butler, and his recent book, "showdown: thurgood marshall and the supreme court nomination that changed america." this your chance to participate. we have been talking for an hour and would like too hear from you. we have gone threw couple of the books so far and will get through a couple of the others this afternoon. 202-748-8200 in the east and central time zone. 202-748-8201 you live in the mountain and pacific time zone. you can contact us electronic, book which [email protected] and via social media,@booktv is our twitter handle, and you make make a comment on facebook, facebook.com/booktv, you can make a comment in that section. we'll begin taking calls in a few minutes. 1967, thurgood marshall is nominated. where were you, how old were you, and do you remembered? >> guest: i was in columbus, ohio. is was the summer time. was 13 years old so probably on my skateboard, skating up and down north fifth street, but i had no awareness or knowledge of thurgood marshall's nomination. i remember seeing flashes of unrest and riots on the tv screen. i lived with my grandmother and my mother, and they were both born in sell selma, a.m., -- sek alabama and me marchs and therights they would be glued to the tv set. you know, that really -- one of the things i wish i had heard about thurgood marshall in junior high school, but i hadn't. or sugar ray robinson in junior high school, but i hadn't. or what sammy davis, jr. had did as a trail blazer in the arena of entertainment, and i think in a way that is what i seek to do with my book. i seek to fill gaps of history, holes in history that i think should be filled. if i hadn't written "showdown" i would have dreamed of walking interest a book store and seeing "showdown" and i would have bought that book immediately. but since i never did no one has ever written about the five days of his confirmation hearings and all the drama around those five days, which were stretched out into, like, 13 days. hearings here, and then the chairman, eastland, no hearings for the next two days, without any reason. but that made the white house and thurgood marshall, of course, very nervous, and those were five monumental days in the history of this country, and johnson saw a moment and made it happen and nominated thurgood marshall, and marshall became this great jurist after this showdown battle, and i think that he made lyndon johnson very proud. there was a moment -- and i talk about it in the book -- when lyndon johnson was out of the white house. he had called thurgood marshall and said the hell you put me through to get you on to the court, it was just hell, and lyndon johnson now on his ranch in texas had told thurgood marshall, he says, i'm going to write a book about that confirmation process and how hard it was, and i'm going write a book about it. and thurgood marshall said, well, mr. president, if there's anything i can do to help you, i will. and johnson died, never got a chance to write that book. told that story to my niece, and she said, well, unkill wil, now you have written a book that the president wanted to write. so if i have, then so be it. i'm happy about that. >> host: from your book, the haygoods of columbus. you learned about things 00 on mt. vernon avenue, about things that hummed, that flew, life. i came to learn that it was the one avenue in our town that kept the town honest. >> guest: yes. it was this street. it was our harlem. it was a place of jazzy nightclubs, restaurants. >> host: all black? >> guest: all black owned. i mean, mostly black owned. it was the epicenter of the black community. it was where dr. martin luther king, jr. would give a talk. it was where lyndon johnson visited mt. vernon avenue. jimmy carter visited mt. vernon avenue. politicians, if they wanted to get black vote, had to appear on mt. vernon avenue, and my mother went up to mt. vernon avenue to some of the bars, nightclubs, and my sisters did, too, and whole family went to this strip in columbus, ohio and that book actually was conceived as a book about a street that slowly disappeared over a period of time, like many urban neighborhoods with nightclubs have disappeared for various reasons. urban renewal or highways being built. the highway came and sort of took the guts out of mt. vernon avenue, but i can see that the book -- the haygoods of columbus -- it wasn't my idea, that title. i'm not -- i wouldn't have thought that my name -- the surname of my family needed to be in a book title, but anyway, that was the editor's decision, named peter davidson, who ed jetted it. but the book was about the rise and fall of mt. vernon avenue and then morphed in a family memoir. >> host: my mother drank. she couldn't hold it but preferred bur ban, when drank she wanted to dance and also wanted to -- philosophize. >> guest: my mother, we lost her not long ago, her family. born in alabama worked most of her life. when the tide have a job as a -- did have a job as a waitress, and -- she loved mt. vernon avenue. she loved to have a good time. she loved sense of family, too. that was very important to her family. she lived her parents, grandmother and grandfather, for many years, on the north side of town, and then we moved to the east side of the town, into a housing project, when i was in the ninth grade, and that was actually my mother's first independent living by herself. she lived there with her children, and the bright lights of mt. vernon avenue pulled her on the weekend, and that, i think, was the impetus looking back at my mother and her life, that was the impetus to do that book. >> host: did the bright lights grab you or any other members of your family? >> guest: yes. yes. everybody in the family, i think, liked the lure of nightclubs. became the first person in my family to go to college in 1972. i went off to college. i went to miami university in ohio, which is where i actually teach at now, and so i would be home in the summertime and would sort of peek in on what was going on, on mt. vernon avenue, but that night life, that -- you know, the dark and bright lights of night life frightened me. i just didn't want to be caught in the snare of it. and so i found way to understand it by writing about it. and now it's -- i don't know if this is charming or cute or what, but mayor michael coleman, who just left office in columbus, has named a small part of mt. vernon avenue wil haygood way, and it's right in front of the -- where old theater used to be that my mother dreamed of having her picture in that theater. and so that just a sweet little, i guess, moment in a writer's life. >> host: long time journalist with "boston globe" and the "washington post." kirk, in oroville, california, you're first up. >> hello. >> host: go ahead. >> caller: i want to make a comment on how story about barbara ross, a beautiful story, person did have a voice in politics today and did make a difference and did make a difference, especially with the election year, how people think that their voice doesn't count but this is a perfect example how a person's voice did matter and it's a really beautiful story. i really enjoyed it very much i will buy you book, sir, thank you very much. >> guest: well, thank you very much. yes, i sometimes talk to college students, even the students who i teach, and i let them know that one person can make a difference, and you can be brave just with a pen and paper, and that what barbara ross did. i'm surely she had no idea where that letter went, where it floated off to. she never got a response. but many, many, many years later, wil haygood, a little boy on the skateboard in 1967, grows up to become a writer, goes to arkansas, sees some papers and finds the letter and puts it in the book and then finds barbara ross herself, and so people can make a difference, and it's wonderful to see things like that happen. so thank you. >> host: did she like the book? >> guest: yes, she did. she wrote me a wonderful letter, which i'll cherish. she said mostly in the letter that she had wanted to know all of the behind the scenes things that happened that enabled thurgood marshall to make it on to the bench, and she told me in her letter -- she said, now i know, and that -- p.s., maybe i'll write my own book some day. so, she became a school teacher for many years. history. she taught history. >> host: bobby in portsmith, virginia, you're on booktv with wil haygood. >> caller: how you do, first i'd like to thank you for your books, and i'm sitting here listening to you, and i've been a novelist study myself. i'd like to make a comment and also pose a question. i find that it has never seemed to have been an attempt to give us a level playing field as far as mental and psychological fairness. the media can slant things to always keep it in the physical construct, which most of the time some type of negative trigger is always accompanied to anything that we do. even the good things. all that question -- on that comment, i would like to pose a question to you because i look for places where we can have a more intimate audience with people such as yourself, where we can portray and deliver information to us in the whole concept that mentally and psychologically healthy to us. do you know of any such venues that i might become an audience of? >> guest: well, i -- my life is glued mostly to the writing aspect of what you're talking about. i look at the case of the new york kingpin, adam clayton powell, when he died, there were a lot of negative stories about powell, and one of the things that i wanted to do as a writer is show his importance 'olyndon johnson's war on poverty, and so that was my way of sort of flipping the narrative about mr. powell, and i think that book did that to show him as a human being. warts and all. no one is person. but his talents far outweighed any flaws that he had. so that is what i can put your question, finding the positive in these stories. >> host: i want show to some video 0 of adam clayton powell. >> i may belong to a group of people that some others may think are inferior, but i belong to a group of people that god, omniscient, omni present god, god of all power, says you're my children, and you're the same as anyone else. and with that kind of faith in me, and courage in me, i know i'm as good if not better than anybody that walks the halls of congress. [cheers and applause] it's not the color of your skin, brother. it's what you got in your heart and in your mind that makes you a man or a woman. remember that. [cheers and applause] and if you all will stand together, there's nobody in this world that can stop a united mass of people moving as one. standing together. working together. picketing together, boycotting together, voting together, loving together, worshiping together. you'll win together. walk together, children. don't you get worried. >> host: from your book, king of the cats, adam clayton powell had no predecessor. he was hand-picked by no one and arrived in washington with independence. >> guest: yes. he was an original. first black congressman from the eastern seaboard, arrived in washington in 1945, when he was sworn in, and he was battling many politicians in his own party, southern democrats, the very people, actually, who i end up circling back to nor thurgood marshall. he was in the house and these were senators. so powell was on the out in outside in the u.s. congress a almost because the chairman of the education and labor committee was a gentleman named graham barden, who kept powell down, but when -- with the wave of democrats who were elected in 1960, adam clayton powell's seniority elevated him and he became chairman of the education labor committee. powerful position, and he started passing a lot of social legislation and student loan bills, outward bound program, very instrumental. that a beautiful program that i went through that the federal government would find these gifted high school students and send you to a local college in the summertime to take courses. a wonderful scholarship program that still exists. and so powell was responsible for passing a whole lot of the poverty legislation in this country in 1964 and 1965 and 1966. >> host: his successor is still in congress, charlie rangle. >> guest: yes, yes. who -- >> host: in a primary. >> guest: yes. powell was involved in scandal and taking two women on a trip and using house funds to do -- by today's standards, it's a small scandal but envelopes nevertheless he was ousted by house members, not by the voters, and he sued the house. the case went to the supreme court and he won. the house might have had a valid legislative move if they would have adhered to the will of the people first, but they just threw him out, ignoring the will of the people who wanted powell to be seated. >> host: darryl in tacoma, washington, go ahead. we're listening. >> caller: yes, first of all, you're -- >> host: if you could -- i apologize for interrupting but if you could get off the speaker phone, it's a little difficult to under. >> caller: i'm not on speaker. >> host: that's better. >> caller: but powell -- a brother in the columbus signify -- talked greatly about you and your accomplishments. so very pleased. one of the things you mention was how the black financed civil rights can the butlers and whatever, but there's another area where the unions, uaw in particular, the fundraise did most of the financing. they are responsible for getting people out of the birmingham jail. hey did the march on washington, as well also the transportation and the most powerful black person in the '40s and '50s was the secretary of that union, who is black, and they had over 30,000 members who were black who they supported. so a wonderful area. i just love your books. you tell great stories. and you're a great historian. so that the area. so thank you very much. and the only question is, of your memoir of your family, you talk about your mother. is there anything else about your family that's special? because in many ways, you are special. and you really reflect that. anything about your family -- >> host: let get an answer. >> guest: i have -- the, by the way, for that call, sir. i like to think that all members of my family are very gifted. they taught me things about life and about unity. it's a very close family. i see family members all the time. so i'm very fortunate to have the family that i have. i love them all, of course, very deeply. one thing about the financing of the civil rights movement, when i was working on my sammy davis, jr. book, i interviewed hari harry bellefonte, and he said -- one of the things you really have to get in this book is the fact that sammy davis, jr. spent a lot of money to dr. king to help people out, and i never knew that, and i was fascinated by that story. sammy was one of the few black entertainers who could overnight come up with $40,000 in cash to bail out kids and teenagers who had been arrested in georgia or mississippi or florida, and so he was great to -- it was great to learn that part of the sammy davis story. it became a very important chapter in my sammy davis, jr. book. so thank you for pointing that out. >> host: back to the haygoods of columbus. looking back i can see that summer night marked the beginning of my sister's decline. when she recovered she climbed out of bed at home walked straight ahead, thin as a wafer, into years and years of darkness, who is wonder. >> guest: wonder is my sister. >> host: twin. >> guest: yes, my twin sister, and she battled some demons in life. i lost a sister also. >> host: to the brightlights of mt. vernon avenue? >> guest: yes. any sister geraldine. and so things happen in families there's that famous quote, all families are alike in some ways. and so -- but there's a wonderful flipside. my sister, wonder, recently graduated from columbus state community college, and i delivered the commencement address, and so good for her. i'm very proud of her. >> host: you also talk about the fact you grew up a stutterer. >> guest: yes, did. had a very bad speech impediment when i was a kid. mostly gone but i would say in the second, third, fourth grade, it was very -- it was so bad that i had a -- i had to go to speech therapy or whatever, and it was old fashioned. they would put this big machine on my head. it was just crazy. didn't work. nothing worked. that did not work. and life went on, and things got better and better and better. so, now almost invisible, but i had to come through that, and sort of -- it's it's mystery ofw one can get through that. it almost -- i think it's sort of steeped maybe in this. i kept getting cut from basketball teams. i got cut from the eighth grade basketball team. i got cut from the tenth grade basketball team, and i got cut from the junior varsity basketball team in the miami university in ohio. now, i would go back to the coaches and i asked every coach if i could have a second chance, if i could have one more day of practice, because i had enough confidence in myself that i would do better that extra practice. i've always been very grateful if somebody would just believe in me. ... that we want to show. >> guest: wow. >> host: that was the speech, right? just go yet. i gave the address. o-oscar george is college park, maryland. pigs are holding on. you're on with author, wil haygood. >> caller: it's really great to speak with you. i initially had questioned about an essay towards african-americans of the struggle but this kind of led me to want to more devotion about the other side where there is many african-americans you see that have promised an end to doing down there, myself is a perfect example. college come off all right, everything like that. i had a horrible home life. my mom is physically crazy, my father not working. i ago throughout this modern modern problems in addition to going to the problem of being an average american with these expectations and no site of any means to accomplish them. and that lead somebody to want to commit suicide. if you have no hope in this country with all the brain you can stay, i can do any class simply because i have to do with my parents situation and on top of that coming the lack of empathy towards the prejudice i get. but your experience with upper bound him and his that allow african-americans severe american situations, how do you think that a person like myself is basically giving up, how can i have a chance to redeem myself in so much as input to me being nothing but a -- >> host: you are calling from college park, maryland. are you at the university? >> caller: yes i am. computer science. software for my seventh year. i actually worked -- >> host: seven dear? >> caller: seven dear. i didn't have the money to pay. i then horrible transportation, i can't go to class when i have -- i cry a lot and i'm pretty sure that happens to a lot of people. it's hard to go aside a day, hold yourself up and say i can do this when you try. you can see small business success but then it gets taken away from you because you must appear or you might be doing this wrong or you follow the quote, unquote wrong people when everybody around me sees me as a person i got to college and i'm amongst other people in college and a seen as a guy who barely got here quote, unquote. it really hurts to try your hardest and have that great when everybody is -- the perception is everybody's against you. >> host: george, you said you've messed up. would it be done to mess up question dark >> guest: >> caller: my personal mistakes have been late or small things with assignment need not fully done. a lot of times the assumption your parents will help you or you have some mentor. there's not many people who want to help a black kid. i've tried my hardest. i've actually worked with assessors at this school, tried day in, day out. >> host: that was george in college park, maryland. >> guest: george, first of all, don't dare give up. don't give out. this is sort of go into gear a little bit away from what you mention, but as a foreign correspondent, i listed south africa and i watched nelson mandela walked out of prison. he's been in prison 27 years. you know, he was relentless inside of his pride, in spite of who he was. and he always kept the faith. there are a lot of people in society who want to help people like you. they are black to want to help you come help you, whites who want to help you commit asians to who want to help you. you know, that people who always have faith in me i look back and they were always teachers to listen to me, you know, family members have always had faith in me and have always dreamed its biggest -- as big as i've dream for myself, they've turned right alongside of me. then it comes to a point where you have to reach down and find the best part of george to give to the world. i never once said the thought that i wouldn't -- or that i do not make the basketball team. i knew no authors when i started writing books, but i have stories to tell and i figured that i would find a way to tell these stories if i was going to fully commit myself to the craft of writing, i had this study i had to read. i have to be very disciplined and focused and then don't be afraid to ask somebody. that is the story of my basketball life. i would always get cut but i would ask for a second chance. a second chance is a beautiful thing because a lot of people see majesty in giving you a second chance. don't be afraid to keep asking. keep the faith, george. >> host: how did you separate yourself from the dysfunction of your family and the bright lights of mount vernon? >> guest: i think that the thing that rooted me and for gene are carving a path for myself for the four years i spent in college. you're in college one year, you know, and you have to have decent grades to come back to thinking air, you know, and you're getting closer to the day when you're going to finish and you don't want to flood the period you keep studying hard. there was a shadow of my grandfather was the disciplinarian. he's a very focused, you know, do this, don't do that, listen to me. don't do this. and so i had to in the shadows and i never wanted to do anything that would upset my grandfather. i think also there are people who either intimately who went to prison, you know, and i knew i could not want to lose the day of my freedom. i just didn't want to go to jail. i was too busy taking of books and other things that i wanted to do with his life, you know, and i just really stay focused. a friday night for others might have been going out to mount vernon avenue or some nightclub where some place. but a lot of times, more often than not a friday night to mean that reading this magazine or reading a magazine or reading that book, you know, doing things that i thought would make me a brighter person have a smarter person. studying and reading. i kind of knew and felt if i would stay focused that something good and decent might come along because of my heart work. >> host: with an hour and 20 minutes left in this months "in depth." our guest is wil haygood, author and journalist. every time we have a guest on "in depth," we ask him or her about their influence in the books they are reading. here are some of the answers from wil haygood. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> in some ways every company is attacked from me that's basic and the internet is shifting from being this interesting phenomenon that really kind of internet enabled disruption and at some point you'll just be taken for granted. this is done a similar path and we will know when we get there when we don't have a hyphenated internet. right now a college e-mail. right now we call it e-commerce. one day we will call a commerce. i think it will take another 10 or 20 years to get there, but we have on that path in the third wave is just the next iteration, the next step, the next wave of taking the idea of the internet from a quirky technology thing than being a fundamental part of everyday life. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> host: we are back live with wil haygood on "in depth." we'll put the numbers on the screen if you'd like to participate on the tv. (202)748-8200 the eastern central time zone. 748-8201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. we will also flash up our twitter address it you want to send a tweet and our facebook page and e-mail address as well. those are other ways you can contact us at the phone lines are busy. we've mentioned several times in lacking why. i want to read a couple quotes from your book about sammy davis junior. he loved white women, the sight of him as black silk sheets, the american dream. you go on to write, nixon needed them is alright, the way sammy that welcomed nixon's power to sell his insecurity. >> one of the more mesmerizing figures i think in the history of the american entertainment. elizabeth as a child and that haunted him forever. he went on the road with two villains, will not submit his father, sammy davis senior. he was a precious child. he was a child prodigy. there is always a price to pay when you live in that world. and so, sammy was not seen as a handsome figure when he became a teenager and 1517, 18. he was up in canada when he was my team and i started getting a lot of attention from white women. upstairs there was not a racial restrictions that there were in the u.s.a. and sammy gravitated towards that interracial lifestyle. that was very dangerous in the u.s.a. and i think his life -- until a certain point in the 16th, early 60s until we became friends with harry belafonte and cindy fortier who both had a very socially conscious approach to entertainment, before that, sammy was than all but the civil rights movement. but once they pulled him in, he was happy to be there. it was like he had found something that had been missing from his life and not with culture, a people, a place them in a certain kind of love that is known to all cultures and they think cme more than made up for missing in action earlier in the 40s and 50s he came out in a beautiful way in the 60s. he went to falmouth. he was at the march up washing to and he gave money to dr. king. sammy was doing a play, golden leg on broadway and he brought the house out in all of the proceeds for dark or king and the southern christian leadership conference. that was a beautiful thing to do . in the late 60s and early 70s when he was supported and a very funny photograph in miami beach given a talk in sammy run out in his arms. sammy had this overwhelming need to please everybody permanently wanted to please all the republicans in the arena. >> host: joe is on the line from shingle springs, california. uri with dr. wil haygood. >> caller: i can't believe i'm on. i would've for two hours and i can't wait to talk to this gentleman. i am a history teacher and here's my question. considering that lyndon johnson was from the south obviously taxes and had close centered her friends, take care of him through his career from the south, why did john do so much for civil rights at the end of his president day. you think he was forced by the civil rights movement overseas sincerely interested in lax rights are his legacy and history. >> host: what you think? >> guest: that's a great question. being a history teacher, i think it was all three. it's legacy was important to him. he was a teacher in the beginning of his career and maybe he thought i can help kids and their future. maybe that came back around because that was his early history. i think all three. >> host: we will hear from wil haygood. this is from his book showdown on thurgood marshall. why was the way to risk so much? a good part of the answer they were marshall had done years earlier and altered the political landscape. >> guest: thank you for the question. it's a very important question. it is rooted in lyndon upbringing. he was born poor and he saw mexicans in texas and poor blacks, especially when he was a youth director during the roosevelt administration and he traveled around texas trying to find jobs for blacks who are living these hardscrabble can. he slept with some of these black families. so there wasn't an embassy that he had with black. also, a very important part of that question, this fact america was becoming unglued. the country and make it 60 or, 1965 was looking at seoul, writes discrimination, the rebellion on the streets were because society was not fair. public housing projects were growing. he had the criminal justice system which was unfair. and so, you had real historical moment for this country and we were seen it on tv with the dogs facing mr. archer is in chasing the children and allow, thurgood marshall comes to the fore because he had always been trying to tell the country that you're not living up to the principles of the u.s. constitution. lyndon johnson was a strategist. he was smart. he did not want to lose the country under his watch. he was battling via tom. he had to win this moral cause and racial unity is a moral cause. it is a moral goal to having your vision. as the leader of the free world, it looked bad to foreign countries that we were mistreating the whole race of people. and we have to fix that. it took politicians like republican edward derksen out of illinois, lyndon, bobby kennedy. it's a the best and the brightest minds that we had at the time to fix this racial quiet liar in this country. johnson really had no option but to get down and figure out ways to fix the racial unrest and that meant passing antidiscrimination legislation, pouring money into communities that have been massively ignored for years. and so yes, some of that was his passion, his out bringing. but also, a big part of it was he had worn his oath of office to have all of its citizens treated equitably. >> host: did any of those folks are thurgood marshall and the party break down. >> there were 20 who did not they were arraigned to not contagious spoof, vanished, went away. but the important thing is the final vote 69-11 which sounds like the southern democrats were only a handful of those away for a causing a filibuster. so the white house got thurgood marshall on to the court in a very close battle. >> host: how did those senators disappear? were they busy that day? >> and engine then would make a phone call to a senator and a how are you doing? how is the wife? i understand there's some people in your community they want to name the bridge. that's a great day and my goodness they and maybe berg and right across that bridge but i'll tell you what now, i got thurgood marshall. i've got to get them onto the court and i'm set against making this happen. they are built because of federal money. i hate to see this money at the last minute disappearing you have no bridge. .. i was not aware of mr. hagood and i started watching c-span a couple of your ago and i find mr. hagood and enjoyable interview every time i hear him and the reason why i am calling this because he also wrote a book about sammy davis junior who is one of my favorite entertainers and ears ago i read the autobiography which is sammy davis wrote about himself, which was rather long as i recall your kind was a teenager when i read it at any rate, when i look at sammy davis, i particularly like listening to his recording from the 50s and 60s. that's the arrangements i enjoy, but also when i compared sammy to frank sinatra, for example, i did not consider either one of those gentlemen extremely handsome, but i did think sammy davis junior was a triple threat. he was a better actor. he was a better dancer. he was a better singer, so i do feel heading up an african-american in that time era he might've been that preeminent star and given the preeminent power that frank sinatra enjoyed and hollywood, so i just wanted to hear some of mr. hagood's comments on sammy davis junior and thank you for writing and i look forward to buy more of your books? host: will hagood. guest: yes. i think frank sinatra was well aware of sammy davis junior's talents. queues at the paramount theater in 1930s when frank sinatra first saw this kid, sammy davis junior, out on stage and he was bowled over by sammy's talent and i think we look back at the rat pack, no one in the rat pack could do what sammy did. now, frank who is one of my favorites, all-time singer was the singular american worldwide sensation. sammy did not have an opportunity, especially when it came to movies that frank sinatra had. i wish he had of, had the same opportunities. there were many scripts sammy wanted to star in to be a part of movies. but, that hire at the letter the script went the people who ran the studio less when it sammy to play the lead role in. i think that hurts sammy. he was something quite beautiful late in sammy's life. he went on to her with frank sinatra and dean martin and sammy in the marquis around the country would just say, sammy, frank, dean: sold out. sammy was the one when they went back for the curtain call, he was the one who the loudest applause. it was really beautiful, very poignant and something that meant a lot. sammy's road had been harder than deana martens road and frank sinatra's road and i think that these gentlemen knew that during that sort of last two were that they made. host: bill hagood, when you see the rat pack onstage drinking, smoking, creating and making a bit of a mild racial joke about sammy davis junior, i mean, how important it was that? did that have significance? guest: well, yes because you look at the other entertainment shows of the times and very few of them had black and so, you know, it was rare to see blacks on tv in the early 1960s and so sammy swallowed those racial jokes. he swallowed them. i do believe that the friendships were genuine in that frank sinatra had a love of sammy davis junior. she knew sammy's mother. he knew sammy's grandmother. he had been to sammy's house a lot. like friends, they sometimes got on each other's nerves, but i do think there was a real affection they are and sammy also played into the racial jokes. he was younger than the rest of the guys and he had always been surrounded by older and more powerful men like his father and so i think sammy, i think you took that in and his way to get even was to perform his tail off on stage. broadway, nightclubs, tv specials, politics, tap dancing. he could play the drums. he was a great mimic. he did jazz. he did pop. before we came on the air he sang candy man quite well. so, sammy had multi- multi- multi- talent. host: we don't talk about what we do offset at c-span. remodel in texas. thank you for holding. caller: thank you very much. you are a fantastic author. about a year ago, a retired justice o'connor said that only vote she would change would be the one to lift the floor-- let the boat-- sort of voters have their recount. had thurgood marshall been on the supreme court he too would it let the florida voters get their recount and let the person that had 560,000 more votes when in that had been al gore. i read certain articles that say that marshall would be disappointed with the current african-american justice what is your opinion? guest: i think that thurgood marshall, i'm sure he would have opinions about the justices on the court right now. some opinions he would agree with and others he would not. the more conservative opinions as thurgood marshall would not agree with. he was about more freedom, more liberty, more justice. so, those opinions that have appeared to tilt in the opposite direction he would not like at all. host: he served in the burger court. was he in the rehnquist court? guest: yes. host: what's kind of relationships did he have with the other justices, particularly personal relationships with some of the conservative judges? guest: very warm, very cordial, but he was always aware that he came from a completely different background than any of the other justices. he was very aware that. he was very aware that's he was an african-american and the only african-american on the court. sometimes groups, small groups families, tour rest would come to the supreme court and there get on the elevator and thurgood marshall would be on the elevator, tall, black man not wearing his robe. family would turn to him and say, fifth floor, please and thurgood marshall would say with-- fifth floor, okay and he would hit the button and the later they would walk into the chambers into the court itself and they would see a black man who they thought was the elevator operator and if they would see him in his robes now. to be thurgood marshall and to not be bitter you had to have a great sense of humor. thurgood marshall would tell that story with a great sense of humor. host: neville in cleveland. go had, neville. caller: i would like to mention that there were four african-americans about whom the author wrote and that they had biographies written about them before hand. i wonder, did mr. hagood find anything that was missing from those biographies that made him take them on as subjects and if he did find something missing, can he tell us what his research brought to the table and it could he also tell us something about the creation of the titles for his different biographies of those for african-american males? host: thank you, neville. guest: my goodness. great question. let me start with the titles. "showdown", the "showdown" book i really grappled with that title for like three years. actually, the first working title was confirmation. it was wooden clunky and my editor did not like it and wanted to have something else for the title and i was in bed one night and i just said to myself, goodness i have to get something to show the reader that this was a real showdown and then i said to myself, that's it, "showdown", "showdown", that's it. sweet thunder, i was having trouble with that and fellow writer friend of mine said, well, why don't you go sugar ray robinson was there in harlem during the time of luke ellington. what you look at the duke ellington songbook and see if there is anything that sticks out and i looked at one of duke ellington's title and it said something to me with such sweet thunder and i told my editor that, that is the title and he said, well, let me think about and he came back to me a day later and said i think it will work, but let's take off the such, so "sweet thunder" was born. in lacking why, sammy davis junior lived in two world, one world black, one world whites and very simple, very direct title. i came up with that and my editor liked it. "king of the cats", adam clayton powell. that did not erupt from within me. my editor came up with that title. he thought adam clayton powell was a real cool cat and thus "king of the cats". the sea, the butler, witness of history. that sort of simple, right out there and "two of the river", the photographer at myself for the two people who took that loan 42 day trip on the mississippi river. family memoir, the davis of columbus, my editor kim up with that title to, so that is the story behind the titles. yes, other books have been written. what did i bring? i like to think something very different. you know, i always try to find a window, different window, a side door, attic, door, backdoor to go into when i am telling these sweeping biographical stories. i need a angle, a doorway, a different doorway both for thurgood marshall book no one had written extensively about these confirmation hearings, so that was the angle. with sugar ray robinson, no one had written extensively about the intersection of culture as it related to his life. he stepped away from boxing to become a dancer and so i focused a lot on his life outside of the ring. so, that was being alike took in that. sammy davis junior, no one had written extensively about sammy and his relationship with will mast and his father, sammy davis senior. about the first 200 pages of that book are really about this trio, this old-fashioned trio, not to name drop, but denzil washington had bought the rights to the sammy davis book and he wanted to make a movie and he told me that the reason he bought the rights to that book was that he had a lot of admiration for the family story, for the three people traveling around 1930s america, 1940s america, three black people, sammy junior and tammy senior and will. it never got made, but another director in hollywood now has the rights to that. so, fingers crossed something happens. so, i wanted to bring the black world and the white world also to that story. the hagood's of columbus, the interesting angle was telling that story about the rise and fall of that street and what else was at about? "two on the richter" that was just a travel journey and adam clayton powell book really wanted to build deeply into his college career in the battle that happened on the heel when he was tossed out of congress, so i have always tried to find an angle as well just to add my own narrative dance to the story. host: so, "the butler" movie "sweet thunder" is getting ready to be made? guest: david, the great actor from some and the butler who has several movies coming out this year has assigned to play sugar ray robinson. he will be great in that. host: does it start filming at any point? has a script been written? guest: the screenwriter has just started. he is writing as we sit here and talk, the screenwriter. so, that's a nice feeling. host: and has "king of the cats" been optioned? guest: it was an it no longer is under option, so that is open, but-- host: what about "showdown"? guest: showdown has been optioned by pam williams productions. the creative team behind "the butler" and they are working on that right now. the sammy davis junior book has also been optioned by hollywood by one of my favorite favorite directors, lee daniels. host: coretta from date ohio e-mails and: mr. hagood, what have you learned about the human condition from writing your books? guest: that people with creative muscle will often stop at nothing. that they don't look at the same barriers that we look at. i think about the people who i pick to write about, and they are often people who i am just amazed with. i know i don't have their gifts in no way shape or form, but if i study them long enough maybe i could satisfy myself that i know adam clayton powell, now. i know thurgood marshall, now. i know sammy davis junior, now. that's what i can bring two words it. that is my muscle. that's what i can give to the world. their gifts, i am in all of their gifts. these are the people who made america. if you look at america as a big spinning wheel like a smoke wheel, a distance over there and it spends over there and spent over there, well, you will see sammy davis in one of those wheels. you will see adam powell in one of those wheels. you will see thurgood marshall and one of those wheels and that is the turning of america. you will see in one of those wheels and what i had tried to do as a writer is catch up to the turning of those wheels. i have tried to reverse it. i try to write about it and to understand it and then i will let the wheel keeps spinning, you know. and think that maybe someone else is seen as spinning wheel or reading the book that they will understand why that wheel is spinning with sammy davis junior in the center of it. host: dorothy is calling in from harvest, alabama. that afternoon, dorothy. caller: good afternoon. thank you, c-span and think you will for the wonderful body of work that you are providing to a current generation and hopefully to a future generation. i was born in monroeville, alabama. i worked for 21 years at all levels of education from k-12 through the governing board system. my question is related to your work as a scholar at miami university of ohio. having lived and worked in ohio and our paths have a cross, it is good to see on c-span today. i founded as you know a nonprofit called the rosetta james foundation and last year i started a organization called the tennessee valley leadership diversity and one of the eight topics we discuss is diversity in education. my question is related to your past year at miami university and some of the most passionate conversations we are having of the eight topics in our leadership of local leaders has to do with the current state of racial depravity in america and the lack of history, not only in textbooks, but the lack of conversations at the collegiate level or any level of education and what impact do you plan to make or how do you see as impacting the current generation of college graduates and future generations of college graduates because it's works like yours that are educating people who are in their mid- to left-- late 50s, like me, about what really went on because we didn't get it in history and k-12 nor in college. host: i think we got the point, dorothy. thank you. will hagood. guest: thank you, dorothy. that was a great question, very important and significant question i am reminded of the texas-- the state of texas textbook controversy when they wanted to refer to slaves as quote workers. of course, that was voted down, but just the fact that something like that would be tabled is astonishing. i think that's that's university and colleges across the country, the more diversity, there's no doubt about it and i think that it is incumbent upon university presidents and department chairman to make that happen. i think that there are a lot of writers, scholars, artists who are not from the traditional background, but have done wonderful things and i think those artists should be brought into the academic community. i think it's more enjoyable for the students to see someone who is not from a traditional academic background. i have a ba degree, but i have seven books in-- and a lot of writing behind me, so i think if people who run the university just the same as the people who were in a corporation in this country, i think if they seek out-- outside of the box that we would all be better off for it there was a lot of chatter about a month ago in the "new york times" portrait of the 500 most powerful people in this country and everyone was talking about 97% of those photographs were white. we have to attack that to make america the best nation that it can be. we have a lot of gifted people from all races in this country. we should not fear anyone smarts or anybody's genius. we should embrace it. host: diane williams tweets in enjoying a live interview with will haygood. i plan to donate some copies of "showdown" to our local thurgood marshall middle school. hello, renée. guest: hello. my question is to will haygood and first of i just want to say i admire you very much and you wrote about some phenomenal strong black men that i grew up admiring. my question to you is this, i know you said your mom and your grandmother are inspirations in your life and you did write about black men, but there are some strong phenomenal black women that have donated so much to our history in the united states and i was just wondering, do you plan in the future, would you ever write about a strong black women like my angeles, shirley chisholm and as far as entertainment, leah horne or diane carol? i would just like to know if you have ever considered writing about some of these phenomenal strong black women. host: thank you, renée. guest: thank you, renée. i'm not trying to run from that question, but those are some phenomenal historical figures that you mention. but, every time i get into my mind that am i tried about this or that woman, i walk into a bookstore and someone has already beat me to the punch. i kid you not. if i was to tell you someone that sort of is circulating in my mind right now, you know, i have no doubt that someone would run out there-- it could be a 10th grader, but would rent out there and write the book about this lady figure before i would, but in all of my books there is a lot of women in these men's life and even in "sweet thunder" there's a whole chapter about women in sugar is time in the 1940s. i write extensively about lena horne and others and so, i hear your point. is a great point, that people keep beating me to the punch. i'm just going to have to look harder and find someone who is always completely in a way unknown at least from a book writing stance and i'm going to have to claim that person and hop to it, so thank you. good question. host: will haygood, is someone circling around in your mind your next book? guest: yes. unfortunately, it's not a biography per se. it's a story that i really don't want to talk too much about it, but it's a story that has something to do with sports in the 1960s. but, on that work on it right now, so i'm excited. host: jonathan morte tweets in: hopefully "the butler" will inspire more film makers to look 1930s to 1950s black life. we have not spoken much about sugar ray robinson. this is from sweet thunder. in chosen economic justice of the cry for social justice. civil rights organizations pleaded with him to join their cause in public. instead, he donated money and welcomed them into his nightclub. guest: sugar ray robinson was a difficult figure. he was a loner. didn't really have a lot of friends. he was suspicious of a lot of people. i think with a whole lot of strange characters did that to him. he did not go to the march on washington. but, where he could put his power and where he did was in his concern for children. he himself, a poor child used to beg for money in the streets and he loved it children. he went to a lot of hospitals. that was where he left his mark as far as giving back. he wasn't very public with his endorsements of certain politicians. he liked robert kennedy a lot, though. he wanted kennedy to be in the white house. host: about a half-hour left with our guest. will hagood on a book tv caller: hello, c-span 2. really like the program. my question to will is back to justice marshall after the confirmation and he was confirmed i was wondering about his transition into the supreme court. were any of those justices that had been there forever helpful to him? i know one at one time was a member of the ku klux klan and he became one of the most liberal justices. you have william zero douglas. did anyone mentor him and what was that like? his transition and apprenticeship as you will as a justices-- of the supreme court. guest: thank you. it was very smooth. hugo black who you mentioned actually he gave him the oath of office. i think hugo black had done a lot to atone for his one-time membership in the kkk. i think that those justices-- yes, thurgood marshall made history, but those justices would also be judged by how well they accepted thurgood marshall into the fold and marshall was a great storyteller. if he sensed awkwardness from any of the justices , he would go into his gift of storytelling. that always put everyone at ease. but, he was unabashedly for the little person, for the little man or the little woman, for the poor person or the disabled person and he let that be known. his dissent could be staying when he felt the court was not paying attention to those who had been done wrong in society. he was, he had a sharp pen and he would will that. so, thank you for your question. host: will haygood, what's inspired you to go from minnesota down to new orleans on the mississippi river? guest: i was at the boston globe and i was sort of new to the staff and sam gross velde, a photographer there who still there, great photographer who has won a couple pulitzer prizes and every other owner. it was 150th anniversary of mark twain birth and assam gross velde wedded to do something to honor that. he came up with the idea to take a trip down the length of the mississippi river and the editor at that time, the editor asked him, well, is there any writer in the newsroom who you would you like to go with and sam said yeah, there is this new guy here and i like the way he writes. see if we can get him. now, sam is a very canny guy. he would have thought something like this out, you know, huck and jim, have been white and jim being the slave, so there was that, you know, there was that historical reality going on even though i was a-- it was a fictional book. so, it sounded like a interesting fascinating idea. i was very happy to get this kind of rare assignments and we wanted literally to do it from minnesota down to the gulf of mexico. we went up to the-- and walked across, 3 feet where you could walk across the mississippi and then we traveled some by rodin then stand, it was either me or stand in one of us came up with the idea to have a raft built in the raft was waiting on us when we got to hannibal. we got on the rafts and we were on that for about nine days and then we got thrown off with a vicious thunderstorm. by that time we were ready to kill each other anyway. you are floating on a raft, you know, big swells are washing over as. where both flat, scary out there at night, thunder and lightning. you know, i'm not in any way a river rat and neither is stan and will most a lot of the raft one day and at the last minute we thought to tie ropes to each other and held each other from slipping off with the splashing rain. it was crazy and the fire department, someone saw us from land and you know, whatever those two nuts doing out there on that piece of floating would and they called the fire department and me and stand looked up and there were three fire trucks on the side of the river bank waiting on us. then we got off of that and then we got back in the car and then we were in some southern town along the river and we saw the mississippi queen steamboat anchored to bow that takes people up and down the mississippi river, so we read and talk our way onto that. you know, we are like two journalists, you know, trying to get down the river and can you give us a lift and we left of the car and everything and hopped on this steamboat and then we went further south and then we got to new orleans and got a little boat and we motored out to the gulf of mexico and that was the end of the mississippi river. that was the end of the story. we wrote it up in a magazine article called "42 days on the mississippi" and it came out. sam-- extended all the photographs and i wrote the story and i am sitting in the boston globe-- the story came out on a sunday and i'm singing in the boston globe newsroom monday afternoon and i get a call from the atlantic monthly press, which was mark twain's publishing and it's peter davison, the editor there and he said, will, just read your story. i'm in new york and i just read your story about this trip down the mississippi river and want to know if you have enough there for a book. i had lived so many years with a dream of getting an opportunity somehow, someway to write a book and that magical phone call in 1986, maybe 1987. may be-- anyway that was my first introduction to meeting a book editor and to sign to write about. that is how it happened and it was a great scary, frightening, beautiful, wonderful, unforgettable trip with my good friend stan. host: next call for will haygood comes from cindy in maryland. go ahead, cindy. caller: hello. thank you for c-span. i'm a middle-aged lay women who campaign for president obama both times because i wanted to change it i was horrified by the previous administration and the one court kind of stole my thunder and asked you if you had been surprised by anything in the human condition. i was going to ask you if you are surprised by the racism that reared its ugly head after president obama took office. i know i was. i had no idea, you know, what still existed in the country and amongst my friends and family sometimes i was surprised. the other thing i was going to say is i'm a baltimore in, native baltimore in and was saddened to see what happened a year ago with unrest following freddy grey's death and i listen to people calling in the newscasts asking over and over why the black people were destroying or seemingly destroying their own neighborhood and i realized it's because they really don't feel like it is their neighborhood. that area, that neighborhood in baltimore is right around the corner from tourist destinations in the shadow of the late mason building, but it's not a healthy community and a family or a neighborhood that they feel a part of. it's just really hard to know, a person like me it's hard to know how to help them boost things into a positive direction, so i was going to ask you number one were you surprised by the racism that has come out since the president has taken office and what a regular person can do to help to take things into a positive direction. thank you. guest: well, thank you very much for your thoughtful, very thoughtful question. thank you for being who you are. now, i am not surprised. anyone who has studied history as long as i have would not be surprised at what happened, but the unique part of that story is the many people who refuted the negativity, the racial harmony of the moments that it took to break down this epic wall in this country by having an african american family into the white house. not as maids or butlers, but as president and first lady of the united states and the maids and butlers who had worked there had done great work, but the country with a legacy of slavery how epic that moment was so, wasn't surprised, but was very delighted to see the goodness that we witnessed because that was something that said something to the rest of the world. it said something to a small kid in kenya. it said something to a small girl in sri lanka. it said something to a small black kid in the slums of the london. it said something to a small little girl in ireland, who is hoping for whatever reason. so, the largeness of that moment is, i think, unparallel, of course it is in this country. the symbolism was huge and i think will continue to be huge, but racism is a strain on this country that we have not figured out how to squash it. the answer simply lies in what we as individuals do, what you will keep on doing and the kind of stories i want to tell and, you know, books and literature and music to explain the story of american history. the whole arc of america despite setbacks, we have kept moving forward in that the amazing thing about this country we have kept moving forward. some days it seems hard to do so, but it is like the congressman from new york adam clayton powell who i have written about. he said, don't get weary i will look at you until you don't get weary. host: if people were interested in reading your writing about being held captive in small yet, or traveling with david duke, what would be the best way that to do that? guest: i wrote those two's stories that you mentioned that i was at the boston globe. i was covering ku klux klan's been, to do this run for the u.s. senate, so i went down to louisiana and i was at a rally with him. oddly enough, he had to get to another town across the state and his driver had not shown up, so i said mr. duke, i'm free. lets me drive you and he sort of looked at me like, you know, he was unsure, but he had to get to this place where he had to go and so there we were, me and david duke writing across the state of louisiana and it made for a great story. goodness gracious, the somalia story i sort of kiss you could get these stories online, boston globe archives. the somalia story i was a correspondence amalia. i was covering the civil war with a photographer and not that i wanted, of course, to be taken hostage. i did everything i could to make sure i was going into a place where no one was looking for me. heck, i wanted to get in there, write the story and get out and so one of the aid workers in kenya had said fly to bard era. that's a village that was already attacked about two months ago, so the rebels will not circle back so soon and attack it again, so you are safe. go in there, do your story and we have a transport plane. bring a sweet and corn there and in today's you can hop on the ride and come back to kenya. well, just that luck would have it on the first night i was there, rebels came out of nowhere and attacked the village. it was a scary situation , but we got out. we got out with a lot of strategic moves made and there was a ransom paid for us by foreign government. the us was not involved, but they let it be known that they cared about us to get us out of there, out of the situation. so, they found two south african pilots to bring a small plane into the desert to get us out and that's how we made it. small plane is not-- a small plane with the pakistani general, the general is not going to be out there in the middle of nowhere without his troops and so when we went up into the air we were rescued and we were all dehydrated, exhausted, frightened, but when we went up in the air for about 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes the plane started to land and i was worried like do not land. let's get out of here, but we landed and when we got off the plane, the generals troops, about 300, had surrounded the plane and told us you are safe now i know it sounds like something out of a movie, but it really happened. host: everyone listening to this was to assess question, what did you and david duke talk about? guest: we talked about politics and much like i tried to do with the senators in "showdown" in the thurgood marshall book i tried to get an understanding of his liking, you know. i would say, david, it's just me and you, man, in this car. how did you get to be who you are, this person who says these things and they sound outlandish, david. and they sound dangerous and they are dangerous. you know, he would say like, well, a lot of it came from how i was brought up and things happen to you in your childhood and those things become instilled in you and his thinking was that name every stereotype about blacks, blacks and welfare, driving big cadillacs, all of that. you know, he believed that. that was a part of his upbringing. those were things that people said to him and he believed it and he started making these speeches. he was very calm in talking to me. it was, you know, surreal. it was a little surreal, it was. host: did he come across as you talk about in "showdown" as a cardboard figure? guest: no. talking to me one-on-one, very thoughtful. i mean,, but thoughtful in the context of being an unabashed racist, i mean, you know very thoughtful, but like very calm and very in his mind articulate in what he was trying to express. he seemed to think that this is a interesting moment for him in his life to be in this car with this journalist from boston, you know, asking him these questions. these were almost things that i felt he would have loved to have said with former friends that he lost, you know. he would have loved to have said these things in a calm her voice and a quieter setting. i knew if we would have pulled over to a town and there was a crowd, all-white crowd, of course, waiting on him that he would've started thundering again all of his racist dogma. he would have started thundering at the top of his lungs and he would've got back in the car and would have continued to the conversation that we were having. i have no doubt about it. host: alexis and young harris, georgia, you're the last call today and we have about a minute left. caller: i think you. i thank you mr. hagood. i'm reading your book "showdown" right now and i'm enjoying it. as someone who grew up in a segregated south and remembers thurgood marshall's nomination hearing and strom thurmond especially, i just want to ask now we have an african-american president who is appointing a white jewish jurist and is getting the same flack, but in a different way from the senate. what do you think about that? guest: thank you for your question. i think that's is awful that the u.s. senate has decided not to schedule hearings for judge garland. i think they are shrieking the constitutional duty. i was in chicago last week. .. >> host: and that will bring our three hours to a close. wil haygood can be contacted at miami university in oxford, ohio. thanks for your time on booktv. >> guest: thank you very much. been an honor to be here. >> c-span, created by america's cable television companies and

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