Author eric metaxas is your most recent book is atheist dead. You open with a quote from solzhenitsyn, do i . Yes. Talking about the fact that bad things happen, essentially when men forget god. Yeah. Look, this is whats so were blessed in america that dont understand where the blessings come from or where the idea of living in a free nation. We, you know, respect people that disagree with us. All of these things ultimately must be seen to come historically from the idea that we find the bible that has worked way out through history and that we have represented so strongly in america that we kind of think its normal, we think its existed forever. It has not. And when god is pushed out or is allowed to evaporate from the culture, you seeing bad things happening and the logic goal and point of that is, you know, north korea is is is is muslims having their organs out by the Chinese Government because they can because they have the power they dont believe in the sanctity of human beings or of life or the gruesome mess of cultures that, in solzhenitsyns words, have forgotten god is something that most americans we kind of were unaware of it. It is horrifying when we look at the record, the atheist, weve heard all our lives like, oh, christians have persecuted, theres the inquisition, that stuff pales in comparison to atheist regimes so dramatically that its almost unbelievable. And i think we need to look at that. And solzhenitsyn of lived in the middle of that hell he could speak from that hell say this is a waking nightmare this is as anti human and inhuman and cruel as anything. And thats how it started. And so i think its just important for us, even if youre not a person of faith, to recognize the record regimes that have said going to enforce atheism, were not going to allow god in what is their records we you know, in 1930, maybe you could say, well, whos to say . Well, now we can say it is as horrifying as anything in human history. Where is the trend right now when it comes to religion and atheism and the. Well i mean, when i ask the question is atheist him dead. Im not really asking theyre atheists. There will always be atheists what im really asking when i ask the question is atheist am dead is can someone whos interested in the facts principally from science and from some of these other things can, they take atheism seriously. I would say its no longer intellectually tenable, but there are some people like i write in the book about people who refuse to look through telescope because they didnt want to know the facts. They wanted to cling their ideology. And so i make the argument, i think very strongly that you cannot once you know the facts as of today, 30 or 50 years ago, the science was not pointing this clearly to the idea a creator, god or Something Like that. But but today, if you only read whats in my book, theres theres an infinity more of information. But if you only read whats in my book, i say that you cannot seriously say, there is no god. You can say im an agnostic. Im curious about who god is or i have questions about this or questions, but you can have all the questions want and people of profound faith have questions themselves. But whether we can take the idea of a World Without god seriously, i would say, you know the facts. You cannot. So how things are trending in terms of, you know, how many people identify as christian or atheist, whatever, that kind of stuff is always in the mix. But i think the reason i wrote the book is i said, we need to have a reckoning with the facts most devout christians i know are totally unaware that over the last four or five decades, the evidence from science has been utterly overwhelming. In other words, were not even saying like its trending. I would say its open and shut now, problem is, what do you do with this information . But Christopher Hitchens was asked in a rare moment candor because he could be really nasty as a debater. But but some in the back of a limo or something, somebody said, hey, you know, youve debated all these people of faith. Whats the biggest argument from the faith side . And he candidly said, oh, without any question. The fine argument, the idea, you know, if this metric or that metric from whether physics or or chemistry, if it were just hair in this direction, the other direction that there would be no life. There would be no what he says. Thats without any the most challenging thing for for us who are atheists and i would agree and i would think that most people of my colleagues on my side would agree with that. And he says that that takes a bit working out. And i thought whats kind of funny is did you work it out . Christopher hitchens and the point is you cannot work it out. You can you can wriggle away from it. You can come up with really preposterous theories like the multiverse theory that that says, well, theres an infinity of universes, even though theres no evidence. Were saying that that the idea that theres an infinity of universe is more palatable to us than the idea that theres a god who created this universe. I mean, i think most people would say that it seems like it seems like more faith than than people are christians would have. So i dont it seriously but were living in a new eric metaxas tell me if im overstating this but i got from your book that science is leading to a christian god and that the bible over two millennia have not has been proven wrong. Is that right . Its not overstating my argument. I will say this. I say this as humbly i can, but i think its not. I its incontrovertible. And that is i think that anyone who and as i say, who just reads my book, its not like you even need to go beyond that because theres so much theres so much evidence that most people are unaware of. I would say you have to conclude if youre honest that the idea that theres no god is no longer on the table, the only question, what do we make of the details as i just said, and then i think so. So that, you know, there are three principal arguments from science, which i give in the first part of the book, and then i get into archaeology. It is crazy how in the in in the middle east as as archaeology continues, weve only been doing archaeology 180 years or Something Like that. They continue over, over and over again to find that what the bible says is history. Its not the most dramatic example. One of the reasons i wrote the book almost main reason i wrote the book was the discovery of biblical sodom, 1700 b. C. I mean, we have this kind of mythical account of the destruction of sodom in. The about 20 years ago, a man that i have gotten know an archaeologist flat out, discovers biblical sodom. And when i first heard that, im skeptical, i said, well, know people like these claims, whatever. When you look into it, its insane. I said to myself, this should be above the fold. New york times, washington post. This is as big as it gets. No matter what your religious view that that this this thing from the first few pages of the bible has been shown to be true from archaeology. Listen nature magazine. Okay Peer Reviewed the probably the greatest Peer Reviewed scientific journal they had 20 scientists write a gigantic article on every detail of this discovery of what is biblical sodom and even these 20 scientists. I assume most whom are secular, could not avoid referencing biblical sodom because the the parallels are just so striking, so so archaeology is pointing to the bible as history. This needs to get out. People can argue with it, but we live in a culture that kind of acts like, no, no, no, the bible is Everybody Knows its folktales and its ancient stuff and whatever. And Everybody Knows that science points away from god. Absolutely untrue. Abs lutely not only untrue, but precisely the opposite is true to me. This is big. Its why i wrote the book. In the book is atheism dead . You spend a lot of time on the Big Bang Theory and the expanding universe. Yeah, yes, yes, i do. I found funny. I mean, the fine tuned argument is much more fascinating a way, because you get into this stuff and you just realize that once the better science gets were going to walk through that. Yeah. No, no, i wasnt going to. I just want to kind of put that the side, but its like is that the better science gets the more we can see on every level. Design thats really fascinating and amazing and it goes on and on and on and on. A lot. But the simple bang theory, its almost like weve kind of moved on from that. And i said, we need to revisit this because when einstein in 1911, his equations start saying to him, looks like the universe is expanding he was such a hard core scientist and so insecure at that point in his career. Imagine einstein being insecure that scientists are going to mock me for coming up with that. Sounds like im religious because im saying the universe had a beginning. The universe was created it is intensely controversial. It was it has been. So i kind of revisit this idea through the 20th century as they began to the universe is expanding it expanded from an infinitesimally small, infinitesimally dense, infinitely hot point. This sounds like science fiction. This is what science says happened. And as discovered this in the 20th century and began to to to to seem more and more and more this incontrovertible, this what happened, the horror among many in the Scientific Community at this idea because they said this this makes science look bad. This shows the limits of science that shows that at one point there was no universe, there was no science, there was nothing. And then suddenly what we say cant happen happened out of literally nothing. No time, no space. Blums time, space, everything thats in the universe. This is what science says. And it was really it rattled many many many in the secular scientific world because they said this this just us look preposterous because weve always been saying that the is static its always existed. This points to god. It doesnt prove but it points so strongly the direction of a creator god that it really it disturbed a lot of people and hoyle who coined the term big bang, derisively in a bbc interview in like 1949. I mean, he was trying to prove that didnt happen through the course of his career. And in at the end of his career, he really came around to say that, you know, not only does it look like the big bang happened, but but it looks everywhere. Look, in the world of science, i see evidence of i mean, were as i say, were living in a new for me, the big news is that most people have never heard this. And we need to we need to kind of get up to date. What is this fine tuning that youve been talking about . Whats the definition and what are some the examples . Its also called sometimes they call it the goldilocks theory. Right. In other words, scientists, the better scientists get at science, the more they can see things that they couldnt see before for example, you know, when we were kids, nobody knew that the size of the earth needed to be what it is. We now know that if planet earth were you know three or 4 bigger, there could be no atmosphere like we have today. We couldnt be here. Anything. Well, thats bizarre. Who would think that would matter . What . Much more horrifying to people who dont want to see evidence of design. If the earth were three or 4 smaller, there could also be no atmosphere in words. Science has to deal with the fact that they look at and go. Its obvious that in order for to have what we have, our earth has to be the size that it is. And you think, well, what is that coincidence . Thats thats an astonishing thing. Realize, like we oh, we just happen to be on a planet with the perfect mass. How, what, what, what wonderful coincidence. Otherwise we literally wouldnt exist. So thats one example. But everywhere science looks and again, it astonished me as i did the research, i said this almost frightening that everywhere look from the design of the water to the existence, our moon to the everywhere we look, looks as though has to be exactly what it is. Or there literally would be no possibility of life. One example that i like is, you know, i see everywhere we look, we find evidence of this the planet jupiter. How many people are looking in the night sky. They know where to look for jupiter. This tiny pinprick of light. And you say, how far is that away . Oh, thats 400 million miles away. Science now knows, knows this is science knows that if jupiter werent there, we could not exist here. And you say, lets preposterous doesnt make any sense. This what scientists they say the mass of jupiter huge that its gravity is so powerful that it pulls away you know, probably 99. 5 of all of the asteroid and meteors that would hit earth are drawn away by the gravity of jupiter. So it seems kind of obvious that god, in designing the solar system, put a jupiter and saturn there as planetary sweepers, that all of these that would be striking earth devastate headingley. I write about the effect of asteroids. Asteroids the in the the discovery of biblical sodom and that would be happening, you know, through the eons that there is zero chance again, this is what science says. Its what christian say is what science says. That thered be no chance of life to emerge if jupiter werent there. And everywhere you look, i mean, im just giving a couple of basic. But every where we look on the chemical, on the atomic level, in biology, in the planet, i mean, when you talk about big bang, what they call the four, uh, fundamental forces of physics, the four fundamental forces of physics, you know, the electromagnetic force, the Strong Nuclear the weak nuclear force, the gravitational force, these four fundamental forces of physics. We now know that if any of them were off by point 001 different value. The universe wouldnt exist that way, but the universe, there would be no stars, no planets would be not anything. Why didnt i learn this in school . What . Because we didnt know this when i was in school. But the point is that this is what cosmologists know and i think a common reading of this stuff makes you conclude it was design by an infinitely intelligent entity. We dont have to talk about whether he has a name or if hes a he or we dont have to talk about that. But lets deal with those facts. I mean, again, so overwhelming that i almost feel like people are going to think im exaggerating. I am not even. Im barely scratching the surface. I just give some good examples of it in the book so people can get a taste of it. But it is. I was astonished. Eric metaxas, you also talk about this issue and i hope im not mispronouncing it. Everybody. Genesis yeah, what is that youre mispronouncing . No, just have your genesis. Is this theory which in the book i devote several chapters to this because i only came to this lately, only about four or five years ago, i met a guy, houston, who is probably the top nano scientist on planet earth, and thats where all the nano scientists live. And he knows what happens. He creates molecules in the lab whatever. And he said to me that its been 70 years since the famous experiment. Most people listening to program probably had it on a test in eighth grade or were in high school. It was on the test. How did life begin in 1952 . Miller military university, chicago. They ran some electricity through the prebiotic soup. In other words, the kind of a solution that they figured was on on planet earth. Know, about 4 billion years ago, theres no life. Theres some saline solution and some nitrogen, whatever. And they said, okay, how do we get from that, which is nonlife to life . And they ran some electricity through it thinking maybe lightning struck it and they got some amino acids and they go, were on our way. Science will show how you go amino acids to proteins and from proteins to this. And then and before you know it to the single cell its only a matter of time before science shows us how you get life. The simplest life. A single cell from non life. Well, when i met james too, he says. Eric, it has been seven decades theyve been working on this very, very, very, very hard. And not only have they not gotten any closer seven decades, theyve gotten infinitely farther away because the more you know about what is happening and not happening, the more you know, theres no way to get a protein to fold itself to itself randomly out of an amino acid. I mean, that would be like, you, a rubiks cube randomly. Its like its levels of complexity that the more you know, the more you know, oh, that didnt happen. But what he says, james, to write about two or three chapters in the book to him, he says, but theyre not reckoning this. No, theres theyre still pretending like were working on it. Working on it. And he says, no, youre not you. Youre climbing up a ladder thats leaning into the wrong building. Youre youre not fooling anyone. You need to shut down funding and be that what youve discovered in all this time is abiogenesis. Get life from nonlife is either or. You can see it is its just you know it would be like youve heard the old thing of you know if a tornado goes through a junkyard and forms a 747 with, you know, trade tables and seatbelts, youd say, well, thats like thats not going to happen. Not in that. Not we had billions and trillions of tornadoes through. Its just never going to happen. Thats effectively when you say that a single cell, which now know to be unbelievably complex, maybe 1952, we didnt realize how complex it was. It is so complex that the more we know from science, the more we know that didnt happen. If you say to a scientist, hey, it appeared on planet earth for billion years ago, how did that happen . The only honest answer is not only is that we dont know, we know that we dont. Will people be honest about that . Will people be honest about the fact that get a single cell, you probably need someone to design it. Otherwise we dont know. Eric metaxas, can you objectively answer the question . Whats the atheists strongest argument that no exists . Oh, sure. I mean, listen, its the same. I have the same questions as a serious christian that i, a serious atheist, has. You know, if there is a god, why is there so much suffering in the world . I mean, there are so many good questions like that that i have, and im not going to pretend i have an answer to it. But what i will say is that michael, is that even those very serious, very good, very honest questions, the facts are incontrovertible pointing to the god of the bible. I still have questions for him as job had questions for him. Theres things i dont get. I mean, its no different than if somebody says like, you know do you do you believe your car works . Are you going to do are you going to get in your car and drive to work tomorrow . Ill be like, yes. And they say, well, you know, carburetor works. No i have an infinity of questions. I cannot theres still an infinity of questions have. But the most basic question, yes or no . Yes, it works. I get in, i turn the key. I go, i really think that if youre honest with regard to the existence of god, you, you, you, you, you, you can have deep, heart rending questions like the question of evil, the question of suffering but i think youre forced to conclude that i have to put those questions aside, because the overwhelming evidence points to god so that thats kind of where i stand, where did the idea for this book come from . Well, when i met the nanoscience ist james tour and he kind of unpacked this for me, i thought, how is it possible . You know, ive looked at a lot of scientific stuff, but that ive never thought of and i just thought, how come, how come ive never heard of that . People arent people always argue about evolution. We are but we never talk about how did life in the first place that really made me think like maybe i need to put that in a book because he written a book about it. Then i met the guy in albuquerque who discovered biblical sodom, and i thought, how is it possible that everybody doesnt know that sodom was discovered by an archaeologist effectively showing the bible to be history, or at least pointing that this information was, to me, these two pieces. I said, somebody has put in a book. And then i thought, ill put a lot of other information in the book along with that. And as i was making the case i thought, you have to ask the Time Magazine said in 1966, is god dead . With all this evidence . I think you have to ask the question, is atheism . Did i said i just i just want to kind of put this out in one volume written on a popular level so that people can kind of be brought up to date and can, you know, make their own conclusions. Think about it, because i think peter, were living in a very secular world where people tend to avoid these questions or tend to assume these questions have been answered. Not only have they not been answered, but theyve hardly been asked seriously. And i said with the overwhelming evidence that has kind of piled up just in the last decades, i said, people need to be made aware of this and it is Game Changing stuff. It is Game Changing stuff. And im amazed that many other books like this been written before. So i, i just feel like its important for us to be honest, this evidence is out. Lets look it. Talk show host author eric metaxas, his most recent book is called is atheism dead. Thank you for joining us on book