Announcements and palm beach, florida. Watch live coverage beginning at nine eastern on cspan, cspan now our free mobile video app. Or online at cspan. Org. Prolife advocates discuss whether or not the Justice Department is doing enough to prosecute those who have threatened activists. Organizations and Pregnancy Center since the Supreme Court overturned roe versus wade. The Heritage Foundation hosted this conversation. The welcome to is the department of justice and please welcome jon malcolm Vice President the Heritage Foundation institute for constitutional government. Good morning and welcome to the Heritage Foundation. For a timely discussion of the topic of is the department of justice abusing the act to silent prolife activists. The face accurate just acted in for the freedom of access to clinic entrances was passed in 1994. The act prohibits the use or threat of force and physical extra options that injures, intimidates or interferes with the person seeking to obtain or provide an abortion. Something many folks do not realize though is the face act is not just protect Abortion Clinic that prohibits intentional Property Damage of a facility providing Reproductive Health services, such as a Pregnancy Resource Center, or a house of worship. With that background, let me ask you. Who do you think is more deserving of being indicted for an alleged violation of the face act . The father in this picture, or the people who perpetrated this attack . Our panelists will tell you more about the people and events that i just showed in these photographs. The department of justice and the federal bureau of investigation which is part of the department of justice, are the most powerful Law Enforcement agencies in the country. They are charged with enforcing the law, federal law evenhanded and nonpartisan manner. But lately, many people in this country especially conservatives are highly skeptical that they are fulfilling their duty. Conservatives see d. O. J. And the fbi using a bogus dossier prepared by political operative to pursue a years long russian collision investigation. Also see among other things abuses of the foreign Intelligence Surveillance act, the rate of former president s trump and meera lago and the non rate of bill and Hillary Clintons home in new york. From the labeling of upset parents at School Board Meetings as domestic terrorists. This year alone, the department of justice has indicted 26 prolife advocates under the face act. Fourteen within the last month. Many of these prolife advocates have been arrested in their homes in front of their families by fbi agents appearing fully armed. Even though virtually none of these people had a criminal record and even though the alleged acts for which there being charged had occurred months before hand. Virtually all of these arrests occurred after the leak of the draft majority opinion in the dobbs case last may. At a time when the democrats had made abortion a major theme of the upcoming midterm elections. In the meantime, since the dobbs a week there have been at least 86 attacks of catholic churches. And at least 75 attacks of Pregnancy Resource Centers and prolife organizations. Of course pro abortion protesters continue to picket outside the homes of conservative Supreme Court justice. What has the Justice Department done about these atrocities . With an excellent panel with us today to discuss all of these events. To my far left is andy, executive Vice President and general counsel of the thomas more society and National Public interest law firm representing individuals involved in the Prolife Movement. Prior to that he serve executive Vice President and general counsel of boys town. And its been active in the Prolife Movement for over 30 years including chairman of the board of the wisconsin right to life Political Action committee. Two over for me is my colleague, hans is a senior legal fellow here in the center. Previously served as a federal Election Commission or but more germane to our discussion today he also served as a career attorney and then counselor to the head of the department of Justice Civil Rights Division during the george w. Bush administration. Between andy and hawes, has a distinguished career in Public Service and in Law Enforcement. He served in the Virginia Senate and as of virginias attorney general. He also served as the defective deputy secretary of Homeland Security and the defective director of u. S. Citizenship and Immigration Services during the Trump Administration. Kent is now a file of the Susan B Anthony which souks lunch and seeks to reduce and ultimately end abortion in the united states. The person to my immediate left with a background in education, has educated the public and advocated for marriage, family, life and religious freedom for the past 25 years as the president of wisconsin family action. A state Family Policy Council headquartered in madison, wisconsin. So angela start with you. The picture i showed of the man and his family, who is that person and tells what happened to him for. That person is a mark. He is a delightful fellow. He is a devoted husband, father of seven he runs a catholic ministry. He administers to the needs of young men and he is aware that a huge portion of women who choose to have abortions, do so because they are desperate. They would prefer to keep their baby but they have resurveyed all the resources and decided things are hopeless and they have to take this drastic measure. Until he goes to the sidewalks in front of Abortion Clinics and gives of himself and offer support to those wind women and many of them choose life. Theres a Pregnancy Resource Center right across the street from this clinic where this incident occurred. An market goes there he takes the abuse that is heaped upon prolifers by the Abortion Clinic escorts, gives of himself selflessly in order to help these women. He was there at the clinic. The face act to mention was passed back in the 90s to counter a movement that sought to shut down Abortion Clinics entirely by doing sit ins in front of the doors. They shut the clinics down in the feds intruded on what should be a state function or a local function and pass a law that criminalized shutting down Abortion Clinics by obstructing clinic entrances or by violences. Now mark did nothing like that. Mark had his 12yearold son there at the clinic was being abused by when the escorts. There is an interaction between the two that had nothing to do with interfering with the clinic activities. Mark is innocent of these chargers but he did not violate the face act. This is startling abuse of government power progress the allegation was the clinic operator or persons in the clinic got in the face of his 12 year old some whom you mentioned that mark supposedly pushed him out of the way. And that is the crux of the charge. Its my understanding before the federal government came inside you charge him under the face act which he could face years in prison and a 250,000 fine per charge of this case was presented to local authorities. There is also another action initiated by the alleged victim could you tell us about that customer. This is just an atrocity. Under the face act the first offense is a misdemeanor that carries a penalty of up to a year in prison or a 10,000 dollars fine. Theres Bodily Injury associated within those penalties are increased by a factor of ten. So after the interaction between mark and the escort the police were called, the police came to the scene. They found what was a little scrape on the arm of this escort. And decided not to take any action. Now the law provides the escort with an option of initiating himself and he did that. Those ultimately dismissed when he continue to fail to show up for court appearances. So this should have been hand of the state and local level. It was a long time ago, nothing came of it because nothing really happened that the law should take any notice of it. And then the feds come in a year later and charge him with a felony a couple felonies for reviling the face act once again its a terrible abuse of government power. Theres a Pregnancy Resource Center right across the street. The model has changed in the early 90s in the face act was passed were prolife activists are doing sit ins and shutting down clinics. Right now what they are doing is there going to the sidewalks, offering women who are desperate and want to keep their babies the support they need to make that choice. And together the Pregnancy Resource Centers have come together to pose an existential threat to the abortion industry and they have to get them out of there. One of the techniques they use is to make them so miserable they will not want to come back. If they bring their children than they prey on those children so the parents wont want to come back for they mess with their kids and thats what happened here. This is an injustice, jon. This is basically your experience with prolife demonstrators . They have escorts going after the kids who the demonstrators bring with them . Is something we see all across the country. So theyll get in the face of the kids. They will be abusive to the kids vulgar they will explain the birds and the bees to the kids. Anything to make the parents go away. Prolife protesters occasionally get attacked themselves . They do all the time. The police are federal authorities responsive to that . Quick sometimes they are terrific and other time of a great deal of difficulty getting the police to charge appropriately and we have to go to court and seek protective orders. Or even injunction sometimes. So tell us about your work with the wisconsin family action. And also the events in the second series of pictures that i showed . Lecture thank you jon. Wisconsin family action or part of the safe Family Policy Network of about 38 of us all across the country. We are engaged in a Public Policy arena. We work with the government. We interact with the media, we work with the culture we have a presence in churches trying to encourage people to stand up for marriage, family, life and religious freedom are not a single issue group. We are not a pregnancy care center. So this is been very interesting. Because a picture you showed up there was my personal office in madison, wisconsin. We have about 1800 square feet in our office and we have a lot of windows. We are located at a main artery to the Madison Airport actually. That was an attack that was done on mothers day of this year. It was early in the morning for. After the dobbs . Adopt decision was released on monday. And quite honestly i knew something was going to happen. Because within moments of that media saying hey this has been leaked, what happened at the u. S. Supreme court . There were people there instantly. So we know its all planned its all choreographed. So i figured something would happen i was just shocked it was us. We were the first one that had a literal attack. This was early in the morning on mothers day. Someone came and put the graffiti on there. A direct threat to us as well as to molotov cocktails into my office. It was obvious it was my office out of our suite. It did quite a bit of damage but it did not do enough so they set fire pretty interesting the news reported that a fire broke out in our office a fire did not break out in our office. It was combustion. It did quite a bit of damage in there. If they had been really good at making molotov cocktails that probably would have destroyed the whole end of our building for cracks and god for bid someone have been sleeping in the offices. This had the potential for hurting people seriously. We are doing with explosives, accelerants. Gasoline and fire. So we are very blessed we did not have more damage. And of course the frightening message. It was its a bullying technique its an intimidation technique. They picked the wrong group. It made us in boulder it made us more to what we believe a special area of life. We have long been an outspoken group in the city of madison working with the legislators, working with the media. We are a sought after sorcery. I just responded yesterday they had a pro abortion raleigh and madison and called me and said hey what you want to say about this . So we are known. I never would have thought that we would be the target. But i will say this, summit and wisconsin was going to get attacked over this whole issue, i will take that attack any day over pregnancy care center. Im sorry i dont have it in front of me essentially sits if abortion isnt safe and you arent either. It was signed by a group claiming credit for socalled jains revenge named after jane of roe versus wade. Obsolete Law Enforcement 30 showed up on the day this happened. Do you have any idea of the status of the investigations customer kyiv you talk to the fbi or the bureau of . This is one of the most frustrating things ive ever experienced to be honest. I hear the stories with 84 old woman was shot in the back when she was doing some prolife work and some of these things. I am just appalled at what is happening. So i get the call, im in church numerator mothers day brunch i get the call early in the morning i interact with the police as i drive to the office. When i get to the Fire Department and police meet me there they have an fbi agent and a member from the atf are there. They close off my office and kept me out of there what were doing interviews all day. And about 4 30 p. M. They commit three cans of physical evidence left and said this is an active ongoing aggressive investigation. I heard from the fbi once and it was at my calling them because someone was trying to say we are trying to track down a phone number it just sounded suspicious so i called the fbi. Ive heard nothing from atf. Now mind you this happened in may 8. The last time i have any direct interaction with the detective who was assigned but the Madison Police department was early june when they requested permission to come in and cheek swab us. So we could get elimination evidence. Well now were talking four months later and ive not heard anything that my dna has been eliminated from the possible suspects. No one has been apprehended. No person has been taken in for questioning. We have a 5000dollar reward out there i sent an open records request with the Madison Police department. Basically what they told me its ongoing and if you want information you should pick up the phone and call us. We are the victim. Im just now back in my office six months later precorrection made reference to the fact youve not really heard from anybody and no arrests have been made. Im just curious. I mention theres always 161 attacks on churches, crisis Pregnancy Center prolife organizations. Are you aware of any arrests that have been made in any of those attacks . I tried to stay in touch with some of the folks that are dealing with all this in places that have been attacked as well as people who would know. And every time i have asked the answer is no one. Now mind you on august 31 a dirt flame log was set on fire on the roof of a planned parenthood facility in kalamazoo, michigan. Four days later the apprehended the person who did that, as they should have. Even though they knew where he bought a log. We have literal damage that is kept me out of my office for six months and we have no one arrested. Whether it was in buffalo, new york or portland, oregon, or in delaware or wherever, no one has apprehended pretty quick to raise a good point. He said someone was arrested immediately after lighting that dirt flame log as they should be just to be clear, none of you has ever advocated violence against an Abortion Clinic or people who work in Abortion Clinic, is that correct is that a fair statement . Yes of course. But you also made a reference for completeness because some these people may not know, you reference it 84yearold woman who was shot i think her name is Mary Jacobson if im correct . I forget which state she was in, there is a referendum in her state on abortion. She showed up at somebodys doorstep to argue i forgive as a prolife referendum are pro abortion she was advocating prolife position. And the women went to the door, got very upset. She did not want her to canvass her for prolife organization at her doorstep. And her husband came out with a firearm and shot her. Now fortunately she was not badly injured, 84 old woman who got shot in fact did not even realize immediately that she had been shops. She felt something and turned to the husband and said did you just shoot me . Yes he had. In fairness he has been charged. So that case is proceeding. But i could just imagine how threatened they felt by 84yearold prolife person showing up right. Now we know it takes. [laughter] witnesses survives the attack. You have to be an 84yearold woman. So harms, lets turn to you. The face act is not exclusively but its primarily enforced by the Civil Rights Division were used to work. What are your perspectives on enforcement of the face act and on the Civil Rights Division . There is a truism particular true of washington im sure all of you have heard is personnels policy. That is really true pretty spent a number of years in the Civil Rights Division i was not a political appointee. Which will need to understand about the Civil Rights Division is the structure here. This law, the face act is enforced by the criminal section within the Civil Rights Division. Some years ago during the Obama Administration another former colleague of mine, Christian Adams and i did something very interesting. We served a freedom of information act request of Civil Rights Division. We have had to sue them to get them to comply with a prickly was very simple the resumes of all the individuals hired into career positions. Now remember those are supposed to be nonpolitical hires. Its very clear woman looked at the resumes these were in fact political hires. If you were a conservative or came from a conservative organization you would not be hired. The criminal section is filled with leftwing ideologues who have no interest whatsoever in enforcing the face act the way it should be enforced which is not just protecting Abortion Clinics but also prolife Pregnancy Centers and also churches. You can see that and what has happened. An enormous number of tax on prolife Pregnancy Centers and churches and not a single prosecution under the face act. In fact if you go to the Mission Statement on the website you will see they have a statement there that talks about the mission to prosecute acts of violence or threats of violence against Reproductive Health clinics by which they mean Abortion Clinics. And yeah, if you look at the explanation of the face act they do have some language added during the Trump Administration to make it clear this includes approach life centers. But folks who have no interest in prosecuting or investing in these cases. The criminal section is headed by the assistant attorney general name is kristen clark. She is a virulent abortion supporter and in fact has for example called the Alliance Defending freedom which is a group that defends the religious freedom of people, a hate group. She has called prolife Pregnancy Centers, predatory and fake clinics. After the may leak, d. O. J. Organized a Reproductive Rights Task force. It was honestly geared only to protecting Abortion Clinics. This is in the midst of all these other tracks going on, no mention made of those whatsoever. The fbi in may, after the dobbs leak uploaded a resource booklet to its website. It talked about about incidents of violence and threats against Abortion Clinics and it specifically talks about quote antiabortion extremist action. It urges all abortion providers to establish liaisons with the fbi. There is no mention in that booklet whatsoever of prolife Pregnancy Centers and churches. They have no interest in this at all. Now, for people who think this is something new, it is not. Okay . What folks have to understand the same kind of thing happened during the Obama Administration. And in fact and ive written about this, during the Obama Administration there were number of face act prosecutions that were thrown out by judges as meritless cases. I want to talk about two of them. One of his a case in florida and watched face act criminal prosecution was filed against a woman who for years had me going to the Abortion Clinic engaging in peaceful sidewalk cancel. All the sudden she is arrested, prosecuted and its claim she obstructed the entrance to the clinic. The best evidence of this would have been the videotape from the surveillance camera at the clinic. Somehow that videotape disappeared. In effect the judge as he was throwing out the case castigated the lawyers at the Justice Department and the criminal section for their negligence and perhaps even grossly negligent behavior and not preserving crucial evidence in the cage and led the judge to wonder whether that was deliberate because the prosecution was a project of a concerted effort between the government and the Abortion Clinic which began well before the day the incident at issue to quell the activities. A second case in kansas also got thrown out by a judge in which d. O. J. Objected to hearing the testimony of its own fbi agents, why . Because the fbi agent had recommended against the prosecution thing according to the judge quote there was nothing there. In effect the fbi was frustrated with the suit because according to the judge they felt it undermined the trust and the relationship they were trying to develop with people who were not extremist but still prolife. In the case speculation piled on top of speculation. Now, the Civil Rights Division you have Christy Clark who is an anti pro life and Pregnancy Center who has no interest in enforcing this. He of the career lawyers in the criminal section and who does she report to . The assistant attorney general rights reports of the associate attorney jellison number number three spotted who is that . A woman who headed the Civil Rights Division during the Obama Administration when they were engaging in this kind of abuse of the face act. Benefactors never confirmed has the assistant attorney general and instead ran the division in violation of the federal vacancies active. So my point here is that the reason you have not seen any prosecution is they are not interested in equal objective enforcement. And i think the lawyers are to not engage in selective enforcement. Cannot get you in a second i forgot and they want to come back to just for moment. I made reference to my opening remarks about sometimes the fbi showing up masks fully arms to rest people and months after what was the situation with mark . How long ago had the alleged incident happened between the time of the incident the time of his arrest in . Is as interesting, jon. Local Law Enforcement chose not to get involved in this minor interaction. And about a year passed by the federal government convened a grand jury and sent mark a target letter. We began representing him then all was a highly decorated former prosecutor who contacted the assistant u. S. Attorney who was handling this case three times. And making the case this was not a violation of the face act. We had another case we had tried in the same district for the court from these facts did not amount to a violation of the face act. Want to take a moment talk about that too . Go ahead. Take a moment to talk about that cages for the judge found there was not a violation. But, said if he decided to go forward theres no need to arrest him and disturb his family we will walk him in. That is not what they did there was silence in response to that communication until the sneak attack occurred when they didnt earlymorning raid sending a couple dozen heavily armed fbi agents to apprehend him in front of his children with guns drawn. Now, we can try these cases and we have a lot of these. I talk about a misuse of government power there are layers of it here, jon. What is charged with the violation of the face act for what happened. Another one is putting him through that arrested. At some point even if we win the processes punishment and this is abuse of power. Now we are defending others were charged with violations of the face act on the cases where they did not act alone the government has paired the face act charge in the face act was passed to stop siddons at Abortion Clinics. The peoples represented in congress decided what penalties were fair for that kind of violation. In the paired that with another charge a second charge, conspiracy to violate the face act under a statute that was passed to get the kkk. They are facing penalties in the form of fines and prison times that are ten Times Congress decided were appropriate for sitting and blocking the entrance to the clinic which is something mark did not do. This is just a startling abuse of government power. Did mark have a criminal record of any kind much less one for violent offense . No he didnt. Another thing interesting is when they processed him they released him on his own recognizance he did not have to post any bond. They let him out for a year, he saw the danger to the public and hes not a flight risk. There is no reason to this Early Morning raid on his home. Sent a message to prolifers everywhere. If you go there even if you do nothing wrong you are at risk. And so we want to send a message that the polish shenanigan like this again is going to be there for you have your back and vindicate your rights. Be not afraid he can go to the clinics and offer help to these desperate women. The way they effectuated that arrest is theres no legitimate explanation for that trust fully armed to rest his family front of his family but im sure marks case but. It actually introduces danger. That doesnt otherwise exist a simple local example in d. C. Here cross the river a few years back in fairfax county, they went after an ophthalmologist who is running the numbers. Running numbers is literally like running a lottery. They showed up with the swat team to arrest him and accidentally shot him to death. So okay we dont want them running numbers but the explanation was numbers as gambling, that is organized crime that the highrisk arrest. So we brought the whole swat team. The reality is that it is whats going on here that the different message being sent but in this local example we can see this sort of behavior repeated they will show up the next years School Board Meeting for the budget and those that we served 900 highrisk warrants. That was one of them. If thats her highrisk warrant . At the local level theres also different play going on here. Lets stick with you now you have extensive Law Enforcement experience also immigration experience and federal levels. Tell us a little bit about your work in the Prolife Movement and your perspectives, i suspected him of the answer is, whether these agencies are in fact operating in it neutral and bipartisan manner or if they are acting in a partisan manner. Not surprisingly protecting life is one of the reasons i originally ran for office for the centerpiece of my time is certainly something that passed by as it attorney general either. Ive also been out on the sidewalks praying and doing those other things without obstructing clinics. We hope will change hearts and minds slowly but surely. And frankly bring god into play here. This is a spiritual battle. At the same time we are talking about like a solid think the answer to your opening question is yes. Ponce is absolutely correct of course personnel is policy. I would suggest so unlike the Obama Administration, this is a part and parcel all of government what presentation of the levels of power against those who simply disapprove this administration. In life is of course a central issue to them they have seized on in part because theyve got nothing else. They are flushing the rest of america down the drain economically in terms of our security. Our president and Vice President terraces internationally all the time. They do not have much to turn to politically. I would say when you look at stepping back. When you look at the charging official about whether to proceed of course we expect prosecutors to use discretion and to not proceed sometimes where it is inappropriate to do so. But 99. 9 of what charging officials, in this case its the u. S. Attorney general are thinking about is plain old crime. It is a very rare situation where you either have a public corruption angle for you touching on what is clearly a political issue in the sense that expression is involved, issues of Public Policy are involved. A process we heard about earlier. That is a very small slice of potential cases. Those factors are appropriate to consider. He mentioned the maralago situation. And the lack of similar treatment for the clintons. It is very appropriate to consider whether you start to look like a Banana Republic when you start invading former president s houses. You do not have to look to make countries to the south of thats pretty much the tradition after you leave office you get arrested. That is a very dicey consideration to have to weigh in. But it is a very important one. They have cast that to the wind in the department of Homeland Security weve spent some time in the Trump Administration. Weve seen that weaponization of speech policing. Within the ministry of truth there. The skewing focus of antiterrorist assets to essentially paint their political opponents as terrorists and here we see that prosecutorial power used against what are clearly political ideological components that were never contemplated as you described in these sort of birth of the face act. What we are seeing here, people like mark were never contemplated at that time as targets of this power. At a higher level all lip to the president and the attorney general comes into play as well. This is what we have elected her to hate to say that but that is what happened here. Your neighbor who votes democrat if you are watching is not in this category odds are. But there is a group of democrats that have controlled this administration and that is the personnel we are seeing. They are not only comfortable with the use of two radical tactics they find the lack of use of them look at how this is talked about universities were free speech is actually dumped upon. It is outrageous you can say this unimpeded. That mentality exists there. Ray set up until Law Enforcement positions and you get what we are talking about today. So you see then you have offices that you think of the face act is being enforced in a hyper partisan manner. You see this as being one piece of a much broader puzzle . Yes. You mention immigration specifically. More recently the most experience. True, we also deal with terrorism and warnings so they use an area of white supremacist. The statistics on when an occurrence happens related to White Supremacy they are statistically more lethal than other types of terrorists. Now its a small number of instances with more deaths. We are talking total in a year between 30 and 60 total for all terrorism. I was a 911 you back 20 years the number was different and thats a big part of why dhs exists. Nonetheless we do have to face a world of terrorist threats and they are turning all of those resources to White Supremacy which again is a problem but it is one problem. The reason they are doing that is because they paint all of us for even having this conversation here today puts it for them they want to paint us all as white supremacist. So you are a potential terrorist. It is the conflation of an extraordinarily wide array of political and policy and intellectual positions that they just want to treat as terrorists and therefore use violent tactics against, they have no problem with violence used against people on the right. I will say abortion is one of those issues where the willingness to use violence on the left is highest. It is not the only one but it is certainly on the high end. Protects protesters on the left are not as violent as pro abortion folks on the left. Just to give a sense of scale and we could go through a whole another series of these things. And i think there are reasons why that is true. But they are not our focus today. The focus is really that inspiration is leading those in power to use the levers of power against folks like mark who you pictured up there. And i agree with andy the process is the punishment. They are going to lose these cases because they have good counsel. Bullies like to pick on people who cannot fight back. Makes it harder for the bully to single people out. That really is a critical part of our system. We will get down the line here sort of french revolution will they will try to impede, impair an illegal ice groups like the thomas morse studied this part of the plan on the left lets not kid ourselves. He saw one of the examples in your opening, jon, the terrorist labeled terrorists to parent showing up at School Board Meetings to deal with transgender issues, crt, other things that are part and parcel of the atomization of the family that is part of the strategy of the radical left. Then i think ordinary democrats in our neighborhoods, people we know would never support. But that is not who has control of these levers of power. You made reference before to violence committed by pro abortion protesters. Not the overwhelming majority of people who are in favor of abortion rights are not violent people. The examiner example the skies been charge for attempting to kill Justice Brett kavanaugh. We had just here couple of nights ago was Justice Alito was here i was asked by me about the effects on the court he said look its terrible in terms of how the internal operations of the court work but all the sudden the five justices who based on this political article that accompanied that week were believed to ultimately did sign onto that majority became targets of assassination. And after he said at him like no, really . The answer is yes. Because it until an opinion is issued it is not official because somebody can change their vote up until the last minute. So literally somebody could, not rationally in the sense of being of sound mind but can make the rational determination oh if i kill one of these five justices President Biden gets to replace that justice and the result changes. Its horrifically dangerous. The jon grisham penguin brief pelican brief. I know some bird. [laughter] what this is part and parcel of the abuse of the face act. Because as you mentioned there is a federal statute that should have been used to prosecute the individuals who are protesting outside the justice. I have heard people say to me im a First Amendment right to do that. No, what the statute says and this is very important, you cannot engage in this type of activity not just outside the homes of judges but also outside the homes of federal prosecutors and witnesses. The point is to prevent activities that is intended, which is clearly was to intimidate witnesses in trials, prosecutors in trials and judges were making decisions. Because without a statute like that without enforcement of it the next time a mobster is being prosecuted by the u. S. Attorney what prevents his henchmen from going in protesting outside the homes of witnesses because the example has now been given the Justice Department is not going to do anything about this. And again going back with what happened with mr. How, any federal prosecutor former federal prosecutor like you, jon, i mentioned your former prosecutor. If you have a target of an investigation who has been indicted and he is a gangster. Scott a record of violence. You are going to want fbi to show up with enough force to make sure no one is hurt. But when you have someone with no criminal record who is represented by a lawyer whos already called and spoken to you in said look, let us know if this happens and we will show up at the courthouse so he can be arranged. You do not show up with two dozen fbi agents with guns drawn unless youre doing it for one purpose only and that is to send a message across the country. Weve been talk about the d. O. J. Abusing this. But you mentioned at the beginning the abuses by the fbi. Any malfeasance and malpractice basically of fbi agents and all of these others. We should not leave out here whoever the special agent is in charge of the Fbi Field Office who had an ethical obligation when called by the Justice Department and told we want 25 of your agents showing up with guns drawn should have said no. That is an overuse of force. It is dangerous, that should not happen. And yet what did the agent in charge of that office do . Went right along with ember that shows another defect not just for the Justice Department also the fbi. When they ask you a couple of other questions and about can feel free to jump in and i will direct the first question to andy. The face act has a provision of protecting expressive conduct in peaceful picketing or other peoples demonstrations. States explicitly the law cannot be used to interfere with activities that are protected by the First Amendment. Clearly you think that provision is not robust enough. Do you think this provision needs to be strengthened in some way . And if so do you have any suggestions . At the bottom of this is a state and local problem. This should be returned to the states. If you commit murder you will probably be charged by a status not a violation of federal law unless it occurs on federal property or fits into some narrow exception. What are known as the Police Powers are generally reserved to the states and should be returned to the states. That exception is there, that protection for peaceful First Amendment activities is there and it has been disregarded in many of these cases by government officials who are abusing government power. So we take away the face act we take away their ability to do that. We also need to decouple the face act which was intended to stop sit ins that blockaded clinic entrances from this federal conspiracy statute that was intended to take down the kkk that was rampaging across the country doing lynchings. These need to be decoupled. If the faced act is going to be retained needs to be strengthened in this abuse of government power has to be restrained. Actually one of our former employees was arrested and went to jail for just exactly the behavior you are talking about, peaceful protests at one of the abortion facilities in milwaukee. This was years ago. We havent had a lot of that happening there. But its just a broader comment. The famous statement by barack obama and jenner 2009 to eric cantor, elections have consequences by the way i won, right . But we are experiencing here really is theres truth to that statement. Every level of government we are seeing in wisconsin and i said to the Law Enforcement than they were there on the day we were attacked, if you will act quickly will mitigate the likelihood of this being replicated across the country. And to be aggressively pursued by the more we ignore this theres clear impunity for the actors paid whether its the fbi with the overreaches of their power and abuse of their power, or whether its the criminals who are attacking groups like ours. It is a clear reflection of a government currently the actors we have in place saying we are going to want to send that message. Just real quickly, groups like ours are being told we wont give you database opportunity. We wont even bank with you but will not insure you. Its a whole set of other things. Because we are told that on a regular basis. And so the longer we allow this kind of thing to go to meet some of the most important things about this panel today. And how its effectuated. How do we do that . If we need to get rid of the face act and on compline from the kkk situation and please bring in better people to enforce the law. I totally concur. Personnel is policy paid a lot of people do not understand that but that is reality. I was pro abortion i would not be comfortable with prosecutions under the face act. There is a neat dichotomy here. Because prosecution of the face act bring attention to the face act. I would be uncomfortable with that. I am pro abortion. You protect churches to protect Abortion Clinics. Bowling alleys, detergents and Abortion Clinics. So each side gets a protection for the sanctuary in which the sacrament resides, havent looked at the face act in a while i assume the justification for the face act it would somehow connect the interstate commerce. One will be hard pressed and auteur very creative learner and there are a lot of them out there to find a true substantial interstate nexus between what happens in an Abortion Clinic to justify. It all of the acts with destruction of property there are criminal statutes in every state and jurisdiction that cover those acts. So if one did eliminate the face act it would certainly not be the situation people engage in criminal conduct of any time could not face. Jon lets be really clear as you noted every might be covered of all 50 states. Under state law that is right. This act was passed to undertake federal elected officials favorite thing, look busy. Look busy. Look at me im doing stuff. And to bring the kind of intimidation power because it is always asymmetrical. Always. Ive a saying if the power exists it will be used here it is it may be 28 years later and of course as hans noted in the Obama Administration it is being abused. And i used i mean abuse. We are not more safe because the face act exists. I would also note, the interplay state to federal were all of those justices live, im pretty sure of this, so they will not get local protection except in very extreme circumstances. Or put differently the local prosecutors will avoid as best they possibly can protect these justices under the circumstances. It was not just the lives of the justices that were threatened as pro abortion advocates posting or Justice Amy Coney barrett and her children to school, very dangerous situation. So ken and andy doing to add jump right in. We have all been describing a situation in which sensitive investigations are being conducted in areas and involve where theres a lot of political disagreement and ferments. What are some of the steps other than repealing the face act that you think can and should be taken to highlight these problems, improve transparency and hold our leaders accountable . I have a couple suggestions on the statute. But i have to say i wonder whether and again john, you have experience with this, local Law Enforcement local prosecutors tend to stand back when they know something is a federal crime. That is true. I wonder whether all these attacks on churches, prolife Pregnancy Centers where the local Law Enforcement is just not doing anything about it because they expect the fbi and the Justice Department did it so nothings getting done. But if youre going to amend the statute one of the problems you saw i talked about the meritless cases but the Obama Administration filed in the judges throughout. Perhaps the statute should be amended for some kind of awarding of sanctions and attorneys fees when these prosecutions are unsuccessful and thrown out by a judge. That certainly should be the case. There is a civil component and it mentioned if you are civilly sued and a judge or a jury decides it was it meritless suit that should never have been filed you should be able to collect your attorneys fees and costs back against whoever civilly sued you for that. The final thing ill mention very quickly is i think it might help if you moved enforcement of this law out of the Civil Rights Division. Moved it over to the criminal division. And then to evolve down to the u. S. Attorneys offices, why . The leadership in washington does not care at the local Community Thanks in wichita, kansas. Or a little town in pennsylvania. But the u. S. Attorney who is politically appointed ones, they come from the local community. They are going to have to return to local community. The fbi agents there are from the local commuter going to have to return to the local Community Like the fbi agent and the kansas case i was talking about theres no there there you should not be filing the case. If they have control over it we might get better, fair enforcement of the law. Can have any thoughts on this . There is an old budget rule i think its called the holman rule. Its the defunding of specifically identified federal bureaucrats. Which congress can do. Congress can do. To take the example of the special agent in charge, zack and philadelphia who led two dozen agents on this little rampage into mr. Haukes house that should have stood in the way but he may still be order to proceed but if it looks like he just rolled along in that way, congress should define him personally. The reason is we are talking about to a great deal and impression. All of the other sacks need to know to put it in military terms, the officer is the moral foundation of the units. When you get bad orders the officer is the only one who is supposed to consider questioning them. Not the enlisted folks. It is their job to act as a final filter. That is one of their roles to hans as points about his or her oath. And congress can play a role in this. They can do it very quickly. And at least create a kind of constructive discussion within the Law Enforcement bureaucracy that clearly to my mind does not appear to exist right now. It is a very unhealthy, just following orders mentality instead of seeking to do the right thing all the time. Am assuming you both agree oversight hearings would be appropriate . Absolutely. Hopefully expect that. Very in depth. At about five minutes left i think we have time for couple of questions. Lets wait to get a microphone here. [inaudible] [inaudible] went navajo or slot docs jews and muslims work in partnership. Isnt the d. O. J. Failing for a discriminatory characterization of prolifers when the face act itself protects places of worship not just churches. D. O. J. Folks, the Civil Rights Division are constantly stereotyping the american people. They are like some of the worst people ive ever seen. That is exactly whats going on. What you described fits in with what i described earlier using the domestic terrorism example. We do have domestic terrorism problems. But the Political Leadership here in washington wants to treat all political opponents and draw out the white supremacist christian and sweep everybody into that. And thus deter people from even participating in their faith and so forth. Because they view as a bad thing. God is the enemy of weather doing doing among others and they know that. Weve mentioned this people need to understand how outrageous it was that what the Justice Department did when they were saying they actually formed a task force, a task force to look at parent and see if theyre acting as terrorists. They brought into the task force not just the fbi but the National Security division of the just apartment. National security vision goes after Foreign Espionage agents in foreign terrorist. It was just completely totally outrageous. Its not just violence and me and my organization. Its trying to intimidate parents. Dont send your kids to these camps. Until and unless and we bring true justice, not a social justice but the true justice we will continue to have these kind of things happen because nobody is paying attention to it. Lets take one more question. I see a hand over here. Has the act ever been used to protect a church or center . Im sorry could you repeat that. Check the website of the list all their cases and i dont think you will find a single case on their. This has certainly been a robust discussion on an important issue. Im gladly had the opportunity to highlight it. Its so far received. Please take a moment to thank all of the panelists. [applause] thank you for being here