Transcripts For CSPAN2 Dave Zirin The Kaepernick Effect 2022

Television companies and more including buckeye broadband. Buckeye broadband along with these Television Companies reports cspan2 as a public service. Tonight i am really thrilled to welcome dave zirin the author of the new book the kaepernick effect taking a knee, changing the world and his book conversation partner akhalil greene, a jen z historian in essence with a halfmillion social media followers. They have much to share and im here to introduce them but i want to say a word about the book. So many of us remember the quiet and at the same time exclusive action colin i kaepernick took five years ago. Weve witnessed the Mass Movement thats taken shape since then and thought about the courage that standing up as an athlete takes and the states at play. This book reflects on all of isthat, its about the politics of sport and impact of sports on politics and its about the players across generations and levels who aspire by using this platform of their field or Court Despite to fight Police Brutality and injustice. The program is part of a t series of discussions connected to the center for brooklyns history initiate, brooklyn resist. Which is deeply into the history of black led protests. You can learn more about brooklyn resist and all ofits many facets by going to the link in the chat. I suspect listening to dave and khalil will prompt manyof you to want to explore facebook further. So we will also put a link in the chat to the website as a local brooklyn bookstore, the Community Bookstore so you can click learn more about the kaepernick effect. A few final notes, and then i happily will have it off. As an author of a History Program you have the optionto engage close captioning tonight. You can simply like that at the bottom of your screen and finally, youre all invited to share your questions. For dave, khalil and typethem through the program into the q a box also at the bottom of your screen. Now let me briefly introduce dave and khalil and invite them, they have stepped up from behind that digital curtainand handed off to them. Briefly because i could go on but im not , dave is the Sports Editor of the nation, a columnist for the progressive and the host of the edge of sports podcast. His many books include a peoples history of sports in the United States states, game over , bad sports and as you know the kaepernick effect most recently dave has been a regular guest on msnbc, cnn and espn and was also named one of the readers. He was elected the first black student body president and enyells 318 year history and is currently finishing his buddies of social movements in history. He has approximately half 1 million followers across his ticktock, instagram and linkedin platforms where he comments about history and our society. He has worked for the espn sports and pop culture website the undefeated and authored up as about Racial Equity in the new york times, Washington Post among others so welcome to you fellas, thank you so much for being here and im going to handed over to you. Thank you so much for that introduction, dave, how are you . Im great. I have such warm feelings for brooklyn, for society, for eli so this is everything for me and im grateful to youfor taking the time to do this. Same shop to brooklyn, im from maryland but my mom is from bedford size so its a recurring where shes from. I think if we want to get mastarted we can jump into the questions if that sounds good to you. It does. Im inmaryland now, where did you grow up . Memory county. Thats where im from. I was born in maryland. Im sitting here in takoma park maryland. There you go. Thats amazing. Not to like take away from new york, you know we love new york. But shout out to maryland two. How about we jump into its, i think the first question on the audience is mine and i guess my before i started th reading the book so it centered early on but i love to hear in your ownwords what is the kaepernick that . It is a Chain Reaction that took place after Colin Kaepernick sat during the anthem and took a knee in august and september 2016 but i think the best way to describe the effect is to Say Something about how i even came up with this idea that i wanted to spend a big chunk of my life working onthis book and talking to people and interviewing them and whatnot. It started when i was talking to 1968 olympia john carlos who so famously raised his fist on the metal stand in mexico city and john a couple of years ago looked at me and just said dave, after i raised my fist in mexico city a ton of young people started doing it at meets. And i was like what, i was always considered myself a bit of an amateur historian so i said where are these people, who are they, how did it affect their lives, how did it affecttheir coaches. I was curious to know the effect of john carlos fist and i realized that was going to be an Impossible Task so i started to then think about all the oneoff stories that i read and some of which ive written about young people who took any after Colin Kaepernick so there would be a story about young one young woman kicked off the team, one young man who was disciplined by his coach, a team in detroit that had garbage thrown at them. These stories that i had written or that ive read. I started to think this is significant, its im right about the intersection of sports and politics and hundreds if not thousands of Young Athletes in this country any after Colin Kaepernick we need to tell that story so i started the process of at the start of the pandemic of calling a lot of folks who work roughly around your age and this was one of the pluses of being at the start of the pandemic is i know you know this, sometimes its tough to get photon the phone and actually have a conversation with them. They want to text, they want to snap jack, its if people still snap jack, i dont know what because of the pandemic people were at home, they were a little bit bored and were happy to talk to me. So i started having these n long conversations with young people who taken a knee, learning how it affected their lives and thats where my head was. Just im going to see this history from being forgotten but then summer of 2020happens, the Police Murder of george floyd. You have the largest protest in the history of the United States in the summer of 2020 and i went back and called the dozens of people ive interviewed up to that point and it was amazing to me that all of them were either in the streets or organizing hepeople to get in the streets and that really made me realize that while many roads may have led up to the summer of 2020, one of them runs straight through the athletic fields of the United States and that story is worth telling i. Thats so powerful and i think reading this book you get a sense of that because it is a collection of stories. And of the , like stories of the impact that Colin Kaepernick had on these individuals and the impact they had on their own communities. Whats very all sorts of reactions i think you see through the utbook and one question i have the kind of followup is in the book, it pretty much separates into three main parts looking at high school protests, College Protests and professional protests that followed Colin Kaepernick and why did you choose to segment it in that regard generationally as opposed to maybe the south were bad reactions to good reactions, what was that process like . Thats a great process and it was a lot of thought went into my going to organize all of these worries that im getting in sort of catchall is because once word got out i was doing this book people started reaching out to me saying my cousin took a knee , can you talk to them and so there was all this wilike swirling around how should i properly organize this and izone of the things i saw early on like himy first thought was exactly what you said, should i do this by region, should i go blue state red state, rural urban and then i realizedlike so many of the stories , it actually transcended that. Or you could say maybe transcended isnt the right word but the connective tissue between the stories to me was so sstrong that it belied whether you are in a red state or blue state or st anything like that and frankly i think some of those differentiations are Mainstream Media nonsense because everyone knows each of these red states blue states can be diverse. After george floyd was murder there were protests in all 50 states in the United States and similarly like some of the reactions in cities thought of as liberal and whatnot like seattle could be more vicious toward people taking a knee and say someone doing it in a Rural Community in georgia. Depended on so many factors in terms of the backlash young people wouldreceive. I went to high school, college and pro because i started thinking there are very distinct and specific challenges at High School Student would face, a College Athlete on a scholarship would face and then a professional athlete. Like read different very distinct realms because in high school we all know itwhat it is, we remember what it was like to be in high school, youre setting up and making your self or r. Theres a lot of courage that goes along with the one with rare exceptions want to stand out in high school or stand against the grain and i wanted to honor that specific kind of courage eofor people who have been born after 9 11 and not really have known anything in this country other than a permanent kind of state of war and of course the pandemic and environmental catastrophe. I have a 17yearold daughter so people who been raised under this pacific set of circumstances i want to honor that. At the collegiate level youre dealing with scholarships, a coach who could cut you off the team. Scholarships in a lot of skills are renewed on an annual basis. A lot of pressure can be applied to your financial aid, to alternative factors relative to playing sports so i had to honor that kind of very specific set of challenges and then at ther professional level where talking paychecks. Were talking collusion against you if you odare speak out. And another is a specific set of challenges, challenges that it Colin Kaepernick in the afface after he took his knee. So i wanted to specifically honor andextrapolate off those very different sets of generational circumstances. Im that makes a lot of sense and even as im reading the book there are other ways of categorizing and thinking about separating the things you readthroughout the High School College and pro categorization really well. One of those others i think was standing out as i read was the fact that not everyone who protested was playing the same sport. Colin kaepernick is a football rplayer and a lot of those examples off the bat are Football Players that love to hand in other black males but as you go through the book you see black women in college at ivy leagues who are cheerleaders also taking the stand for Colin Kaepernick and people doing different forms of resistance whether its a knee or sitting down or putting a fist up. Im curious usabout the sports and gender aspect. What are some of the trends you saw dependent on whether or not someone was a Football Player or a cheerleader or the questions will get to later, wnba. Another great question khalil and folks should know i dont know what these questions are so im responding off the top of the dome to a serious set of inquiries so let me try to take that on in terms of the different sports and whatnot. Im using the word on her a lot because i have so much respect for the people i interviewed and i feel like a sense of real connection with them atthis point. After having called them, we e call them during the protests of 2020. Theres a set of really just a tightness there that ive enriched my life tremendously. Its made me far more optimistic than i was when i started this book about the , just talking to these folks and one of the things i wanted to do was honor the breath of the experience that exists because i made a book about Football Players, that would be in effect a historical line because i would be saying heres the effect, it involves young men and involves olfootball. And its not just a football story, its spread to so many different sports. I had to make a point to honor the contribution of women because women often particularly black women get written out of the history books and this is a case where like the black lives Matter Movement in many cases black women are the backbone of this kaepernick effect, of pushing it forward and we can talk about the wnba proceeding them taking that need so just to get another layer to the role that women have playedin the struggle. And one of the things that i found though to get to your question is i found that there are stereotypes are very helpful is what i found. People might think well, i that high school womens Softball Team would be more supportive than an mens Football Team cause there would be more of a culture of unity in womens sports and mens sports. I found doing this book that when were talking about racial inequity aand violence and people dont want to hear that that figurative knives come out. If people dont want to hear what you have to say in this country the response canbe very brutal. One of the Common Threads in the book is really this specter of violence as a response to what is a nonviolent act of civil disobedience. And to me thats a stunning window into this country and larger. It doesnt matter if youre a softball player in one part of the country or a youth Football Player in beaumont texas. If you are challenging the status quo, if youre your challenging the way White Supremacy works in this country then people arent going to just agree to disagree or people are going to say youre making a good point,maybe i should listen to you and hear you out. In some cases people say that and there are stories of people who are changed through these protests but in other cases the rresponse is not only do i notwant to hear what you have to say but im going to respond violently to that. And i feel like what all these Young Athletes went through from 2016 to 2020 was kind of like the canary in the coal mine. The warning of everything were seeing right now with regards to socalled Critical Race Theory and the idea of teaching about Structural Racism in schools. We got such a sneak preview around these kneeling protests of how a certain segment of this population will respond if you dare raise up theseflags against Structural Racism. I think it reminds me of im a student as you know, im a history major studying the history of social change. One of the most basic stories and profound and wellknown stories about nonviolent protest and a lot of what youll find is that they use nonviolence knowing specifically that it would cause a violent reaction from the white southerners and that violent attack on nonviolent people and it was spectacle enough to get other people on their side. In a lot of ways its almost like making yourself a martyr in a small way and a lot of these cases in their own community. To make a larger statement es about the fact that all im doing is kneeling or raising a fist yet its causing this reaction so what else you need to look at and as easy overtime the nonviolent protest especially after Something Like your floyd where a lot of communities its the straw that broke the camels back and the canary song is a warning after so many years. If it still doesnt work, you see what we have like what we had last summer with the racial uprising. I think its a very interesting opinion, making a cycle of nonviolence to increasing frustration and communities of color against whats happening. Im curious. Before you ask that question you sense of interestingstuff. Ive got three bullet points in my brain based on what you said but the first is i came back from minneapolis today and you go to George Floyd Square and one of the murals that there is this huge mural of Colin Kaepernick taking a knee its chilling and very moving because implicit in presenting that over where George Floyds body lay is this idea of okay, we tried expressing this in the most peaceful possible terms that theres a problem with the lease violence in this country and racism and that was ignored or it was responded to with hostility and violence. You have to listen to people wawhen theyre stepping forward with their concerns in our society or youre going to read the whirlwind at some point. You also mentioned the Civil Rights Movement. Two quick things about that, two quick parallels to this kaepernick effect weve seen over the past few years. Anybody whos watched eyes on the prize knows the part about all the Civil Rights Act of this who speak about the fact that emmitt till in mississippi was something that changed their lives and it was like a scar that could not be erased. It informed that they needed to be part of the struggle Television Companies<\/a> reports cspan2 as a public service. Tonight i am really thrilled to welcome dave zirin the author of the new book the kaepernick effect taking a knee, changing the world and his book conversation partner akhalil greene, a jen z historian in essence with a halfmillion social media followers. They have much to share and im here to introduce them but i want to say a word about the book. So many of us remember the quiet and at the same time exclusive action colin i kaepernick took five years ago. Weve witnessed the Mass Movement<\/a> thats taken shape since then and thought about the courage that standing up as an athlete takes and the states at play. This book reflects on all of isthat, its about the politics of sport and impact of sports on politics and its about the players across generations and levels who aspire by using this platform of their field or Court Despite<\/a> to fight Police Brutality<\/a> and injustice. The program is part of a t series of discussions connected to the center for brooklyns history initiate, brooklyn resist. Which is deeply into the history of black led protests. You can learn more about brooklyn resist and all ofits many facets by going to the link in the chat. I suspect listening to dave and khalil will prompt manyof you to want to explore facebook further. So we will also put a link in the chat to the website as a local brooklyn bookstore, the Community Bookstore<\/a> so you can click learn more about the kaepernick effect. A few final notes, and then i happily will have it off. As an author of a History Program<\/a> you have the optionto engage close captioning tonight. You can simply like that at the bottom of your screen and finally, youre all invited to share your questions. For dave, khalil and typethem through the program into the q a box also at the bottom of your screen. Now let me briefly introduce dave and khalil and invite them, they have stepped up from behind that digital curtainand handed off to them. Briefly because i could go on but im not , dave is the Sports Editor<\/a> of the nation, a columnist for the progressive and the host of the edge of sports podcast. His many books include a peoples history of sports in the United States<\/a> states, game over , bad sports and as you know the kaepernick effect most recently dave has been a regular guest on msnbc, cnn and espn and was also named one of the readers. He was elected the first black student body president and enyells 318 year history and is currently finishing his buddies of social movements in history. He has approximately half 1 million followers across his ticktock, instagram and linkedin platforms where he comments about history and our society. He has worked for the espn sports and pop culture website the undefeated and authored up as about Racial Equity<\/a> in the new york times, Washington Post<\/a> among others so welcome to you fellas, thank you so much for being here and im going to handed over to you. Thank you so much for that introduction, dave, how are you . Im great. I have such warm feelings for brooklyn, for society, for eli so this is everything for me and im grateful to youfor taking the time to do this. Same shop to brooklyn, im from maryland but my mom is from bedford size so its a recurring where shes from. I think if we want to get mastarted we can jump into the questions if that sounds good to you. It does. Im inmaryland now, where did you grow up . Memory county. Thats where im from. I was born in maryland. Im sitting here in takoma park maryland. There you go. Thats amazing. Not to like take away from new york, you know we love new york. But shout out to maryland two. How about we jump into its, i think the first question on the audience is mine and i guess my before i started th reading the book so it centered early on but i love to hear in your ownwords what is the kaepernick that . It is a Chain Reaction<\/a> that took place after Colin Kaepernick<\/a> sat during the anthem and took a knee in august and september 2016 but i think the best way to describe the effect is to Say Something<\/a> about how i even came up with this idea that i wanted to spend a big chunk of my life working onthis book and talking to people and interviewing them and whatnot. It started when i was talking to 1968 olympia john carlos who so famously raised his fist on the metal stand in mexico city and john a couple of years ago looked at me and just said dave, after i raised my fist in mexico city a ton of young people started doing it at meets. And i was like what, i was always considered myself a bit of an amateur historian so i said where are these people, who are they, how did it affect their lives, how did it affecttheir coaches. I was curious to know the effect of john carlos fist and i realized that was going to be an Impossible Task<\/a> so i started to then think about all the oneoff stories that i read and some of which ive written about young people who took any after Colin Kaepernick<\/a> so there would be a story about young one young woman kicked off the team, one young man who was disciplined by his coach, a team in detroit that had garbage thrown at them. These stories that i had written or that ive read. I started to think this is significant, its im right about the intersection of sports and politics and hundreds if not thousands of Young Athletes<\/a> in this country any after Colin Kaepernick<\/a> we need to tell that story so i started the process of at the start of the pandemic of calling a lot of folks who work roughly around your age and this was one of the pluses of being at the start of the pandemic is i know you know this, sometimes its tough to get photon the phone and actually have a conversation with them. They want to text, they want to snap jack, its if people still snap jack, i dont know what because of the pandemic people were at home, they were a little bit bored and were happy to talk to me. So i started having these n long conversations with young people who taken a knee, learning how it affected their lives and thats where my head was. Just im going to see this history from being forgotten but then summer of 2020happens, the Police Murder<\/a> of george floyd. You have the largest protest in the history of the United States<\/a> in the summer of 2020 and i went back and called the dozens of people ive interviewed up to that point and it was amazing to me that all of them were either in the streets or organizing hepeople to get in the streets and that really made me realize that while many roads may have led up to the summer of 2020, one of them runs straight through the athletic fields of the United States<\/a> and that story is worth telling i. Thats so powerful and i think reading this book you get a sense of that because it is a collection of stories. And of the , like stories of the impact that Colin Kaepernick<\/a> had on these individuals and the impact they had on their own communities. Whats very all sorts of reactions i think you see through the utbook and one question i have the kind of followup is in the book, it pretty much separates into three main parts looking at high school protests, College Protests<\/a> and professional protests that followed Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and why did you choose to segment it in that regard generationally as opposed to maybe the south were bad reactions to good reactions, what was that process like . Thats a great process and it was a lot of thought went into my going to organize all of these worries that im getting in sort of catchall is because once word got out i was doing this book people started reaching out to me saying my cousin took a knee , can you talk to them and so there was all this wilike swirling around how should i properly organize this and izone of the things i saw early on like himy first thought was exactly what you said, should i do this by region, should i go blue state red state, rural urban and then i realizedlike so many of the stories , it actually transcended that. Or you could say maybe transcended isnt the right word but the connective tissue between the stories to me was so sstrong that it belied whether you are in a red state or blue state or st anything like that and frankly i think some of those differentiations are Mainstream Media<\/a> nonsense because everyone knows each of these red states blue states can be diverse. After george floyd was murder there were protests in all 50 states in the United States<\/a> and similarly like some of the reactions in cities thought of as liberal and whatnot like seattle could be more vicious toward people taking a knee and say someone doing it in a Rural Community<\/a> in georgia. Depended on so many factors in terms of the backlash young people wouldreceive. I went to high school, college and pro because i started thinking there are very distinct and specific challenges at High School Student<\/a> would face, a College Athlete<\/a> on a scholarship would face and then a professional athlete. Like read different very distinct realms because in high school we all know itwhat it is, we remember what it was like to be in high school, youre setting up and making your self or r. Theres a lot of courage that goes along with the one with rare exceptions want to stand out in high school or stand against the grain and i wanted to honor that specific kind of courage eofor people who have been born after 9 11 and not really have known anything in this country other than a permanent kind of state of war and of course the pandemic and environmental catastrophe. I have a 17yearold daughter so people who been raised under this pacific set of circumstances i want to honor that. At the collegiate level youre dealing with scholarships, a coach who could cut you off the team. Scholarships in a lot of skills are renewed on an annual basis. A lot of pressure can be applied to your financial aid, to alternative factors relative to playing sports so i had to honor that kind of very specific set of challenges and then at ther professional level where talking paychecks. Were talking collusion against you if you odare speak out. And another is a specific set of challenges, challenges that it Colin Kaepernick<\/a> in the afface after he took his knee. So i wanted to specifically honor andextrapolate off those very different sets of generational circumstances. Im that makes a lot of sense and even as im reading the book there are other ways of categorizing and thinking about separating the things you readthroughout the High School College<\/a> and pro categorization really well. One of those others i think was standing out as i read was the fact that not everyone who protested was playing the same sport. Colin kaepernick is a football rplayer and a lot of those examples off the bat are Football Players<\/a> that love to hand in other black males but as you go through the book you see black women in college at ivy leagues who are cheerleaders also taking the stand for Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and people doing different forms of resistance whether its a knee or sitting down or putting a fist up. Im curious usabout the sports and gender aspect. What are some of the trends you saw dependent on whether or not someone was a Football Player<\/a> or a cheerleader or the questions will get to later, wnba. Another great question khalil and folks should know i dont know what these questions are so im responding off the top of the dome to a serious set of inquiries so let me try to take that on in terms of the different sports and whatnot. Im using the word on her a lot because i have so much respect for the people i interviewed and i feel like a sense of real connection with them atthis point. After having called them, we e call them during the protests of 2020. Theres a set of really just a tightness there that ive enriched my life tremendously. Its made me far more optimistic than i was when i started this book about the , just talking to these folks and one of the things i wanted to do was honor the breath of the experience that exists because i made a book about Football Players<\/a>, that would be in effect a historical line because i would be saying heres the effect, it involves young men and involves olfootball. And its not just a football story, its spread to so many different sports. I had to make a point to honor the contribution of women because women often particularly black women get written out of the history books and this is a case where like the black lives Matter Movement<\/a> in many cases black women are the backbone of this kaepernick effect, of pushing it forward and we can talk about the wnba proceeding them taking that need so just to get another layer to the role that women have playedin the struggle. And one of the things that i found though to get to your question is i found that there are stereotypes are very helpful is what i found. People might think well, i that high school womens Softball Team<\/a> would be more supportive than an mens Football Team<\/a> cause there would be more of a culture of unity in womens sports and mens sports. I found doing this book that when were talking about racial inequity aand violence and people dont want to hear that that figurative knives come out. If people dont want to hear what you have to say in this country the response canbe very brutal. One of the Common Threads<\/a> in the book is really this specter of violence as a response to what is a nonviolent act of civil disobedience. And to me thats a stunning window into this country and larger. It doesnt matter if youre a softball player in one part of the country or a youth Football Player<\/a> in beaumont texas. If you are challenging the status quo, if youre your challenging the way White Supremacy<\/a> works in this country then people arent going to just agree to disagree or people are going to say youre making a good point,maybe i should listen to you and hear you out. In some cases people say that and there are stories of people who are changed through these protests but in other cases the rresponse is not only do i notwant to hear what you have to say but im going to respond violently to that. And i feel like what all these Young Athletes<\/a> went through from 2016 to 2020 was kind of like the canary in the coal mine. The warning of everything were seeing right now with regards to socalled Critical Race Theory<\/a> and the idea of teaching about Structural Racism<\/a> in schools. We got such a sneak preview around these kneeling protests of how a certain segment of this population will respond if you dare raise up theseflags against Structural Racism<\/a>. I think it reminds me of im a student as you know, im a history major studying the history of social change. One of the most basic stories and profound and wellknown stories about nonviolent protest and a lot of what youll find is that they use nonviolence knowing specifically that it would cause a violent reaction from the white southerners and that violent attack on nonviolent people and it was spectacle enough to get other people on their side. In a lot of ways its almost like making yourself a martyr in a small way and a lot of these cases in their own community. To make a larger statement es about the fact that all im doing is kneeling or raising a fist yet its causing this reaction so what else you need to look at and as easy overtime the nonviolent protest especially after Something Like<\/a> your floyd where a lot of communities its the straw that broke the camels back and the canary song is a warning after so many years. If it still doesnt work, you see what we have like what we had last summer with the racial uprising. I think its a very interesting opinion, making a cycle of nonviolence to increasing frustration and communities of color against whats happening. Im curious. Before you ask that question you sense of interestingstuff. Ive got three bullet points in my brain based on what you said but the first is i came back from minneapolis today and you go to George Floyd Square<\/a> and one of the murals that there is this huge mural of Colin Kaepernick<\/a> taking a knee its chilling and very moving because implicit in presenting that over where George Floyds<\/a> body lay is this idea of okay, we tried expressing this in the most peaceful possible terms that theres a problem with the lease violence in this country and racism and that was ignored or it was responded to with hostility and violence. You have to listen to people wawhen theyre stepping forward with their concerns in our society or youre going to read the whirlwind at some point. You also mentioned the Civil Rights Movement<\/a>. Two quick things about that, two quick parallels to this kaepernick effect weve seen over the past few years. Anybody whos watched eyes on the prize knows the part about all the Civil Rights Act<\/a> of this who speak about the fact that emmitt till in mississippi was something that changed their lives and it was like a scar that could not be erased. It informed that they needed to be part of the struggle Going Forward<\/a> no matter what. I found in talking to these young people that Trayvon Martin<\/a> was the emmitt till of this century. Every people, they said the name Trayvon Martin<\/a> more than Colin Kaepernick<\/a> when speaking about what informed their protest and it made me think about the fact that Trayvon Martin<\/a> is from 2012, nine years ago so if youre 20 that means that happened when you were 11 and if youre 11 your old enough to get whats happening but also young enough to ask the questionwhy does the world have to be this way . That really i think with people in a big way. If the talking about bus lines today, who knows what they will be talking about tomorrow. This is likehe pulling the stris on on a sweater. I think thats similar to Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and all these young people who took an knee. Yes, they were doing it for Racial Equity<\/a>. They were doing it against Police Violence<\/a> but one of the reasons why thehe reaction was o incredibly vicious in some cases was because implicit in taking that knee is a statement, spatially that is being done during the anthem, that theres a gap between what this country says it represents in the lived experiences of so many people in this country. That is a very intense chums put towards power in the United States<\/a>. That really resonates with me. I think i was, i know is in eighth grade, not sure how old i was in terms of numbers when the Trayvon Martin<\/a> case was publicized and came to light. Even before that i think id heard of emmett till. I remember hearing this from a parent at some point and i think that was in the 50s. My grandmother was born in 40s. I thinkth she is older than emmt till would have insight eyesalve that in the back of my mind and lynchingsg modernday like similar in kind, different in the realities i guess but just seeing how a lot of the scenes are replicated today are very jarring. Rightar after Trayvon Martin<\/a>, there were successions of killings like over the years. There was tamir rice y soon aftr that and thenft mike brown and freddie gray, that was in baltimore and 2015. I remember that when the most because i was in maryland. And then sandra bland and casteel foot dash all of these, eric garner, a lot of cases happen in the short time span and like it was so frustrating and really heartbreaking. I think thatt the shape a generation. There was a poll i saw the right behind the pandemic, so it was number one before the pandemic but like the cause that shapes our generation was the black lives matter bilat. Whether positive or negative is the thing that kind of interesting and kind of crazy to see but also it made a lot of sense special saying the movement back in the day. Definitely. And im really, im appreciative of you mentioning those cases and the way they shape people. Social media is also very much a part of this story. Because when people, especially in the sum of 2016 when alton sterling, terrencee crutcher, Philando Castile<\/a> all killed in the videos going viral and people seeing them, and then the response by so manyan people in power and in politics are saying well, the problem is social media. Thats like know, the problem is Police Violence<\/a>. When people say that Colin Kaepernick<\/a> is polarizing and taking amy is polarizing. My head is like no, its polarizing is Police Violence<\/a>. Whatsiz polarizing as racism. Thats whats polarizing. Wheniz we either talk about polarization we have to keep in mind if you drill into the polls about people taking an knee, take asa Colin Kaepernick<\/a>. Thought that americas polarized. Itsol White America<\/a> thats polarized. Because black and brown folks broadly support the right to protest during the anthem particularly around issues of racial inequity. Widely supported. But it is among people come particularly like white families, people who disagreed likee something yes, this is appropriate where to do something and others are absolutely repulsed at the mere thought of anybody was testing it at a sporting event or during the anthem e but thats the powr of taking that knee. It is so ubiquitous. If you and i took a knee at the maryland state fair or if we took an knee and the ravens game or if we took a knee at the super bowl, during the anthem, everybody would immediately know why we were taking that knee. Thats the power of it is that people see it and they know you are issuing a direct challenge at the status quo. I think thats one of the things that drove the people who didnt want to see it off the deep end. Yeah. And you mention taking an knee and how like everyone would understand and especially after last year you saw a lot of like symbolic gestures, in my opinion. Everyone has their own, like there would be the Senate Democrats<\/a> taking an knee, or very recently some ceo took an knee and support of black lives matter something that happened. I think what was happening at the border with the haitian migrants, taking an knee is like a Racial Justice<\/a> protest. Im curious to hear your thoughts about like, like how is the taking of a knee been diluted over time and what ways has that symbolism been beneficial but also like to see negative places i think it was part of the book where you highlight, or maybe it was in the forward, highlight like a taking a knee is also the stance the killed george floyd in a lot of ways. What is it is the differes of the symbolism, however many years after Colin Kaepernick<\/a> did it . First and foremost, the power of that juxtaposition, i saw that protests i went to throughout the summer of 2020. It didnt take an american studies degree from columbia for people to realize this is really like a tale of two knees basically a Colin Kaepernick<\/a> snee which is a nonviolent expression of the desire for social change event Derek Chauvin<\/a> knee on the neck of george floyd. These two knees say so much about what are as a country. And about what we do as acceptable and not acceptable. Are people who still defend officer chauvin and excoriate Colin Kaepernick<\/a> for taking that knee and that to me is like a fun house mirror of morality. So there is this differentiated reality in this country in terms of what we see as acceptable, you know, as part of human life. Thats something we need to drill down on and discuss. The other thing you asked me about the which is so important this idea of appropriation and watering it down. Thats a feature of this country. Theres a malcolm x postage stamp, for goodness sakes. I remember when, im going to send old, but when public enemy and checked he said in 1989 most of my heroes dont appear on the stamps. That was in 1989 that was a true statement but are icons of radicalism, are icons of people who are fighting for direct change get appropriate because they cant be destroyed or forgotten. Like you cant make this country forget about malcolm x. X you cant make young people forget about that history or thomas smith and john carlos. What to do instead is you appropriate it and sell it back to people is something consumable, something to selkirk anything to make it safe, anything to extract its political k9s so they dont bite at a system thats treating people unfairly. I think with the need theres been that effort as well. I think nancy pelosi and kente cloth is something that is worth dwelling upon a little bit. But the one thing though that i see when it comes to the knee, context is everything. I just got an email last week about a high school where the Football Team<\/a> took a knee and people in the stands took a transit both because of racist and homophobic snapchat were going around the school. So this was, black lives matter flags alongside, lgbtq flags in the stands, People Holding<\/a> them up high, taking a knee. In a situation like that, thats really powerful. Thats a tremendous statement of antioppression in a very challenging set of circumstances, a High School Football<\/a> game. Much to the chagrin of the administration and of the parents and all of this. So the power is still there. It exercises in a way that takes risk. Theres no risk in nancy pelosi taking anyone wearing a cloth. Theres no risk when its a Team Activity<\/a> for example, because the franchise ownership who wants to market a team of some jet the want to appeal to generation z or Something Like<\/a> that and get those dollars. Thats a different circumstance than people risking something i wish this wasnt the case but one of the things that can give protests its power is risk and the way in which we intuit that risk when we observe it from a distance. And you mention that like interesting case you said of the private flight and black lives matter flight being flown together. Theres some, like context and stories around when people took in me or did something similar and athletic protest. Im wondering of all the interviews you had him which one is the most memorable, and will stand out to you, and why . Wow, on one level thinking of which interview hits me the most in my heart is like, oh, my goodness, like choosing between favorites because i treasure all these relationships so much. The one i carry with me is a case of rodney junior because theyre so much in what he went through. This is a Football Player<\/a> in brunswick ohio suburb outside of cleveland. His family moves from a rough neighborhood in cleveland to the suburb in brunswick precisely so it safer and he gets a better Public School<\/a> education. So his parents are trying to do things the right way from the standpoint of what we are taught is the american dream. You get out, you move up, all that stuff. And yet heres rodney asked in june and is in the community where he faces open racism where he faces harassment from the place where is on the Football Team<\/a> and he hears all sorts of racial epithets thrown around all the time at of the people and when he says hey, i find that offensive, his teammates look at him like hes half off the dean say what you talking about what we are not talking about you get basically saying you are one of the good ones. Youre a teammate. Its these other ones, thats the problem. In addition, he said at a school where constantly feels like he has to tiptoe through raindrops basically, like much everything he says, everything he does, like it may be said when he said he didnt want to go to parties because of the people were drinking. Not because he was concerned about himself drinking and saying something but because he is worried about being around some of his classmates when they are drinking and their tongues get loose and what the heck are they going to say to him. Hes in this very, very difficult box already, and then the videos come out and the memories of people like Trayvon Martin<\/a>, the videos were already discussed, alton sterling, Philando Castile<\/a>. Hes connecting his own personal experience with the experiences that hissing and social media. Just wants to do something. He has no idea what that is, and then Colin Kaepernick<\/a> takes a knee and its like eureka, the light bulb goes off. Yes, that something i can do. And i would argue, kahlil can you study social movements and social struggle. This is Colin Kaepernick<\/a> said great gift to the grand history of social movements. Its that gesture. Its this gesture that you can replicate and do anybody knows what it is youre talking about. So soon as rodney sees that meet a clicks with him that he can do that, too. So he takes the knee and when he does this is when the story in a lot of respects when it begins. Thats true for most of the stories because i found when talking to people is like the real story is after the knee gets taken and you start seeing like does the coach support are not support . Do i get stabbed and backed by teammates were stabbed in the front mighty mitts, or to actually get some solidarity and support . Are the teachers about me on the back and call me john carlos in the hallway like hey, its john carlos, you know . What would happen in some cases or are the concerns that teachers and particularly professors are actually getting bad grades because in object what youre doing on the sporting field which cost one of the people interviewed a cost or to transfer out the school because she was absolutely convinced they were trying to push out through her grades unfairly which it must be a nightmare if you think about what that would be to have to go through that. Rodney then went to all the paces, and what moves me so much about rodney is two things. One, despite all the hardship you want to hear no regrets whatsoever. Like him hes very proud of what he did. Then the second thing is when summer of 2020 happens and you have these protests, he felt this sense of vindication about being on the right side of history, which i would argue is one of the most empowering things a person can feel. When they feel like i missed something and now that is actually bearing fruit. I i think that definitely resonates with me and i think it was interesting because i was looking at lebron james, he was someone from ohio, ended up going to predominant white school for this better chance. Its like just saying how that dream is important for a lot of people who hope to make it in the athletic world and that the rest in a lot of ways giving that up. Thats a very, very powerful. One thing you mention is how he did know exactly what to do to like localize or perform the rage she felt after watching or addressing all these Different Cases<\/a> but that transfive Colin Kaepernick<\/a>s gesture gave him a template to follow along. I want to go to different topic but a lot of times or at least let the publicly there was controversy between two celebrities, Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and jayz, who is i guess from new york from brooklyn i believe, on whether or not that gesture was enough to whether or not that gesture was impactful thing to get communities and people of color and black people specifically to replicate that threat the nation, or whether economic power and partnering with the nfl and reforming it through the push of ownership is a better model. Im curious to hear what you think that is, like what is the difference between the cap and it affect them what the shawn carter effect, how do you think about those things . I think of the shawn carter effect as primarily benefiting shawn carter. While the kaepernick effect is something that benefits the masses. In time, i would say this. Beware anyone who ever says protest isnt enough it because what we need is actually more protest. We have to understand that ideas for the kind of world we want to live in actually arrive out of protest excellent people like jaycees say things like the time for kneeling is done, we need to transition out of protest, what theyre really saying is when the transition out of struggle. As Frederick Douglass<\/a> said, without struggle there is no progress. You need that struggle to be the candling for the fires that we create the kind of change that we want to see. Now someone like people have asked me a version of the crash with a asked me do you think jayz sold out . I want to be like no, no, he didnt sell out at all the people have to understand hes a billionaire. Hes not selling out. Hes acting in accordance with the station in society and what jayz is trying to angle towards is buying the denver broncos. If you wants to do that and become the first black owner of an nfl team, more power to him. But what that does for the family of george floyd i do not know. What that does in communities that deal with police occupations i i do not know. It doesnt do a lot. Meanwhile, what Colin Kaepernick<\/a> was doing was inspiring people to actually selfactualized himself as changemakers. Theres so much more that comes out of that historically than just saying well, we need to have some sort of action plan that we go to to the police. Because i mean what that tends to lead to is a group of sort of leaders who are siphoned off of the movement and given the responsibility of basically negotiating the terms of peoples oppression, a set of having people, the masses of people come together and actually enact change. I think theres confusion about this. It comes quite directly with how unfortunately too many people are taught history in this country, taught that is a collection of great men almost always white men, very rarely women who are these Exceptional People<\/a> and is almost like they come down from planet also and create this kind of change, and were all observers. When a participant in the fight. We are observers these great people. And i think that history, i think is attracted to people for two reasons. One, we live in a celebrity culture and any time an individual is exposed is almost like bees to honey in that regard. But its also because that kind of history can be very disempowering and it can view a great level of passively in people. What was so important about the Colin Kaepernick<\/a> effect is that it imbues people a sense of action, an action is absolutely critical if were going to get from point a to point b and have a more just society than the one we currently live in. I people say all he did was take a knee. First of not only did. Even if that was all he did, the effect of it means so much more to so many more people than if j. C. Gets the keys to the castle. Yeah, i think thats very interesting. Actually i was going to ride my thesis like the former version of my senior thesis on jayz and his forms of activism. Select the controversy about also like his own theories for change. One thing that reminded me of speaking of like metaphors, analogies to older Civil Rights Act<\/a>ivist with this conversation between lbb the boys w. E. B. Du bois and booker t. Washington and like the idea of making African Community<\/a> of booker t. Washington sidelight more economically advanced, improving ways through ownership and those sorts of means and the three etchings like economic power, whereas the boys was more like political power, protectg the right to vote, protest and all those things. Of course each of the had a nuance and other things i disagree upon. Theres like i think im stunned to see that reflected the sort like this jayz model where he lets say some of his albums advocates for small things that individuals can do to like save wealth or by certain things and by land which have a lot of whole issues especially within the African Community<\/a>, africanamerican trinity, discrimination along the lines of class and Colin Kaepernick<\/a> provides this Political Movement<\/a> protest. Im curious to hear your thoughts if theres any other analogies are other ways of segmenting the strategies that help you conceptualize the difference between the two. That was brilliantly played. I would say that first and foremost i mean du bois has been a think very strongly been proven right by history. In that the booker t. Washington model of put down your buckets where youre standing and build where you are. That can benefit a small minority of people but it doesnt do anything for the mass of the population. It might segment a small group to actually enjoy the fruits of the system that we live in, but is not going to do anything. Its actually going to exacerbate inequality in a country that already suffers from dramatic inequality. We need massive, massive antipoverty programs in the United States<\/a>, and thats not what jayz represents. We need Mass Movement<\/a>s against Structural Racism<\/a> and thats that what jayz is trying to build. I think we can fuse together the movements for political and economic power, as long as we realize one of the walls against achieving true economic power is actually political repression. I think thats were booker t. Washington and his defendants really the ship descended from mystic. How do you expect to build black power in the broadest possible sense, not in terms of just a few people but in the broadest possible sense, as long as politically, look whats happening right now with its it at that Critical Race Theory<\/a> bills or whether its the Voting Rights<\/a> suppression, the gerrymandering. These are not only political attacks on our political rights. It affects peoples ability to be economically mobile in society. We have to be able to fuse these two things. Ill say this for Colin Kaepernick<\/a>, ive attended his camps for young people, and one of the things that is always stressed is his idea of financial literacy. Theres sessions that he talks with young people are actually gets experts to talk with young people about things like, like nutritional literacy. I will never forget being in chicago and there were a couple hundred use their and the question came out, how many people here had eaten fast food three times in the last week. And just about everybody raises their hand. The second question, how many of you someone in your family has had colon cancer . And also so many people raised their hands. Its like tying together that food and selfdetermination of even the food we eat is something that is a political fight. Of course its also an economic plight because you have to be able to afford to not just eat fast food. Thats also an economic question in addition to being a political question. I think the fusing of these two issues is critical for any sort of liberation politics. Its interesting you said like in chicago there are these nutritional literacy programs. I believe thats one of the places they have the black Panther Breakfast Program<\/a> and also one of the places where the police raided the black Panther Breakfast Program<\/a> and i believe actually i have on this but they urinated on the food that was meant for the children after reading to, which is completely insane. At least the gross issue that these things are resistant throughout time. But i think ill let you react to that. That so powerful. The panthers hold that this example thats really important the shows that if youre just trying to build your economic base without a politicals fight, the police was to come in. Any challenge to Structural Racism<\/a>, its going to be a very intense battle regardless. Its like having an economic fight and having a political fight, and a lot of ways thats the legacy of the panthers have given us, that you need to be able to have ways in which you can build up the community and you need to have ways in which you directly challenge inequality and capitalism or youre going to end up in a situation thats going to lead to the defamation not just the struggle but entire communities. I agree. And ill say like weve done a lot of going to the past but i love talking that present a future as relates to the book. As i was reading it, like that are part of the book especially like in the beginning in the forward, in the intro, talk about things that really happened yesterday and feel so timely. I cant believe this was published and printed and sent to me and theres like that time span. Because like it feels like the george floyd references and a lot of other things that have happened since are so timely. So my question for you is, like in riding this, because its a story thats not over. The kaepernick effect is still affecting people. You said theres a store they came up to you already. They cant be in the book because the book is already out but how do you know or how did you know when to wrap it up or when the story was complete or how did you go about, if thats the feeling you felt at all . Thats the ultimate question. I call that the painters question. Like when do you take a step back away from the portrait . How do you know that last brushstroke is done . Also the incredible fear that comes with knowing when to put the brush that it doesnt belong to you anymore. Thats that moment, and ive written of the books and that moment when you hit return and you send it into your editor rescinded into your publisher and you know that your baby is no longer yours, you know . Other hands are going to shape it. Almost always for the better, but still it will no longer be what you put together. I mean, you asked a terrific question, and like because this is ongoing and we are going to see more protest in the years to come. But to me the summer of 2020 was such an important moment in history, in history for Racial Justice<\/a>, and history of protest, in history a struggle. I mean my goodness, protests in all 50 states . That never happens during the Civil Rights Movement<\/a>. In the same concentrate period of time. The idea of this country which will tell all the time is irredeemably divided, i mean, red state, blue state which is such a false division. The idea that we had protest and idaho and protest in San Francisco<\/a> around the same issue about the same man who was killed in minneapolis. Obviously that speaks that people are upset in ways that far transcend what occurred to george floyd, and not even the of the viral videos or anything like that. But they saw a reflection of their own lived experience in what happened to george floyd. Thats the only reason why there would ever be protests that large and that intense. So to me in the aftermath of those protests and also thinking about okay, if we can get this book outcome at appreciate the new press for doing this, we can get the book out in the fall of 2021, fifth anniversary of when Colin Kaepernick<\/a> first set during the anthem, started the nfl season. Why not . Thats a good point by which we start this discussion while being extremely humble about the fact that this story is an ongoing story. Its so important because it is a presentday story. You and i, we share being history majors and having, like having the sense of what happened in the past but its like the past becomes dry and desiccated if we are not applying it to the president and using it as way to understand the future. I agree. Thank you so much. We are going to transition out into the audience questions. Already . As about that time. Im going to start selecting if you that i think a really good for us to answer. Ill start with i think a really good, want to kick things off. It says how did daves social, and cultural views and the intersection of sports come about . Does anyone else do what you do . Thats a very fine question. For me, i mean, i was your age, kahlil, and there was a basketball player for the Denver Nuggets<\/a> named he makes the decision to not stand during the National Anthem<\/a> turkey was asked why and he said well, thats likely be a symbol of freedom and democracy to some but as a symbol of oppression and tyranny to others. I was somebody who lived like on two parallel tracks. I was very much into history. I was into all the stuff that into kahlil in terms of like his of social protest and how change the world. People just, the self actualization of the individual was something that i was there into. The self emancipation of the individual and i was also into sports. Just obsessed there but to me in this sports net knowing all the statistics on the back of a baseball card. It make this history of people like muhammad ali, billie jean king, tommie smith, john carl. Ill never forget on espn one of the talking heads after he refused to come out for the anthony said he messed himself and the tradition of the activist athletes. My head just like exploded. Ive what is an activist athletes . I didnt know what that was. So i went to the library. I also started reading the book in my room it was in a class called the history of the black athlete top by professor and i just saw the profession after when is a minneapolis, as i went to college, i was speaking at my school, and ill never come i just got to say, like hes 87, sharpest attack computers at the event and he said to me, hey, i love the work you are doing. I said your class changed my life. He looked at me and said, well, you didnt take my class. I couldnt believe he remembered that and i said yeah, i didnt take my class but are limited and i read all his books. And i would like sneak into your class and sit in the back. He was like so pleased to hear that. I just, he is in my heart, as i do all of this work. But thats how i got into it. Are there other people in sports during this . Yes. Theres a new generation of Sports Writers<\/a> for looking at this anymore political view. Theres been a profound change over the last five, ten years in terms of the kinds of sports riding jumps that exist, jen people who dont want to just ride about balls and strikes that the want to ride about the sociopolitical context in which sports take place. There are no dedicated positions the sports culture and politics writers in places like the Washington Post<\/a>, usa today and host of other papers. Obviously the blogosphere has opened it up to that school. I started doing this almost 20 years ago and i just got to tell you, the landscape is profoundly different than when i started. Got it. Thats great, like thank you for sharing that. Thats very inspiring. We will probably try to take your professors name or what recommendations for the audience, that would be in the meantime im going to get another question. Feel free to ride the name of the panelists and the attendees. Are you able to find that . Im just going to ride perfect, perfect. Make sure the audience i , to e sure the audience has that for the research. Was great to see them on campus but one of the terrific professors at my alma mater. He was wearing a face mask that said goode trouble on it. Awesome. Let me ask another question. The recent addition of the black National Anthem<\/a> at the opening of nfl games has gotten support and complaints from people for many backgrounds and viewpoints. What do you think was the true innovation for the anthem had to think this move has been received by the players and fans . Do you think this change will last . Yet. I mean, its a great, this is all that carrots and sticks. The nfl realizes that what Colin Kaepernick<\/a> did was i mean he opened up the bottle of wine and poured out all over the place and you cant put the wine back in the bottle. The genie is out of the land in terms of players protesting in the nfl had to adjust and figure how to deal with the fact that their entire league rests on a profound contradiction, is that you dont have the nfl without a deep, deep sense of racial and labor discipline. That has to be maintained to have National Football<\/a> league. How else can you have league that has no black franchise owners, 70 of the place a blk and its got a 100 injury rate . Contracts are not guaranteed in it to rip and a typical rear is only three years. That is a very rough set of material circumstances and very rough objective reality. And it depends on this degree of vertical authoritarianism in making sure that Everybody Knows<\/a> their place and everybody does what theyre supposed to do. Heres Colin Kaepernick<\/a> living the famous muhammad ali quote who said i dont have to be what you want me to be. At that, theres a danger in that. Thats why said former first started the conversation that this is about more than Police Violence<\/a> and racial inequity. This is about who is supposed to lead and he was supposed to follow, and Colin Kaepernick<\/a> and others turning that on its head. I view the playing of the black National Anthem<\/a>, i view the fact that put things like slogans like into racism in the end zone or allow players to wear decals on their helmets or start a a social Justice Committee<\/a> inside the nfl as the effort to corral what the new consciousness thats taking place, and make sure that it is expressed through acceptable parameters, that they can still control. Thats what its really all about at the end of the day. Its about control. Great answer. Someone also asked is this being recorded . Do we get a copy of it . Yes, it is being lysed and on facebook and there would be a recording the comes afterwards as well. Theres really theres one more question that we will do that is really interesting to me. So it says you talk about mexico in 60 is like the start of the modern era protest in sports. Are there any earlier significant protests in the sports world . Absolutely. This is one of the sports history because its such an incredible lands to which to understand American History<\/a>. Politics are baked into the cake of organized sports in this country and this goes back to the 19th century. There have always been political rebels in sports, dating back to the 1800s. The reason why is because sports rests on this huge contradiction. Its the myth of inclusion and the realm of exclusion. When sports start in the 19th and its held up as being this incredible symbol of the unitedd states, of a true meritocracy. Anyone who is good at the sport can make it on the field or anybody who tries hard enough is going to get in the game. Its a huge light effort and ideological reproduction, like the ideas of this country are reflected through sports to teach a young generation particularly at the time a young generation of european immigrants that youre no longer polish or i wish or whatever, italian. Your american now. Really you are white but you are american and you can facilitate that through sports come to this great meritocracy. But that inclusion narrative is a myth because rally was exclusion, women not allowed to play. Black and brown folks go off to the site and make your only if you want to but we dont want to see it come we dont hear about it and were not going to fund it. So the whole history of sport has been the site for inclusion, this fight for a loving playing field, this fight by marginal groups to be heard and to find expression of their own lives in the sports world. And in that regard sports has always been this expression used earlier, this canary in a coal mine because usually struggles erupt in sport around this fight for inclusion that didnt break out in the broader society. Thats why when we talk about the Civil Rights Movement<\/a> we also talk of Jackie Robinson<\/a> who comes into the League Almost<\/a> a full decade before the start of the Civil Rights Movement<\/a>. He comes into Major League Baseball<\/a> while dr. King is toasted a a possible user bur, for goodness sakes. Or muhammad ali come out against the vietnam war when very few people in the country were against the vietnam war. We see these things reflected in sports and a very powerful manner and it can be an accredited effect of lands for teaching about the contradictions of the United States<\/a>. Well, thank you so much. Those are all the questions we can take. I am going to pass it back to marcia now. Before you go, marcia, i just have to say kahlil, that was fantastic. Ive done so many of these at this point and i enjoyed doing this with you so much, and he really appreciate you taking the time to do this with me. Of course. I had a great time. Thank you for agreeing to come here and thank you for riding the book. It was amazing. I recommend a go and get it from the local store of the lake that has been provided. Its a great read. Next time youre in maryland well go to the chili bowl. Sounds good. I just want to thank you both. I mean, what a wideranging connecting the dots, mind blowing set of things you were able to talk about in one short our. I want to thank you and i want to thank all of you for being here tonight. As kahlil said the program was recorded, is recorded and we will post it tomorrow on the center for brooklyn history youtube channel. I think it would be a link that goes in the chat if you want that. And i am really hoping you will explore the other programs offered by the center for brooklyn history. Booktv every sunday on cspan2 features leading office diussing the latest nonfiction books. At noon ete life at the texas book festival in depth with mkpdegrove. His books include the last republicans and the incomparabl grace. Jfk and the president s. 2 p. M. Eastern watch our live coverage o t texas book festival with Douglas Brinkley<\/a> with this book silent spring revoti, elizabeth alend and the trayvon generation. And at 10 p. M. Eastern on after words cbs news Major Garrett<\/a> and sen f election innovation and reseahounder david becker discuss allegations of voter fraud in the 2020 election and rebuilding confidence i american democracy. Watch booktv every sunday on cspan2ndind a schedule on your Program Guide<\/a> or watch online anytime at booktv. Org. Weekends on cspan2 on intellectual feast. Every saturday American History<\/a> tv documents americas stories, and on sundays booktv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. 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