that democrats and republicans in washington can agree on and perhaps that is that the aarp leadership doesn't necessarily protect the best interests of the american senior citizens but they pledge to represent. so i simply take a few as representing the leadership of aarp, please don't mislead our seniors. they sent all of us, republicans and democrats alike to this body to represent them. please don't use ms ponds to line your pockets on their backs. without a yield that. >> cannot comment? >> the gentlelady yells back. >> i think it's very important that we not allow the purpose of this hearing to be taken in a different direction. the seniors of this nation deserves the right to know how money is being spent and whether it's been spent in their best interest. with that, i yield five minutes to the gentleman from oregon, mr. blumenauer. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i actually agree with the notion about the senior citizens. i would first of all like to thank aarp because i have not always agreed on some issues, but i respect the work that is done. the folks back home provides lots of energy and activity. i for 1:00 a.m. sorry that you are subject to do something of that nature because they truly think reading through a 25 a half page with 2432 dresser that an authoritative in scholarly misses the mark. i find it fascinating on page 17. you are taken to task because somehow you are undermining your long-term business interests because you have underwriting standards that are more flexible in the to the needs of people who are 52 mike 60 that caused potentially money. and you're taken to task for that. you supported the affordable care act, which now requires every american to have these protections, which you undertook that perhaps some financial disadvantage to their motto because you thought it was the right thing. i remember that when some members of congress who used to support top and seniors with end-of-life care, when the big lie about death penalty and they retreated. aarp was part of 400 individuals and groups that came forward to tell the chairs. not just because someone like my friend from georgia thinks something is than that though doesn't put it in the bill. and i vitiate your zeroing in. this route port takes you to task because aarp had the audacity -- the audacity to support the children health program expansion. assuming you did not only for some sort of convoluted financial benefit, ignoring the fact that your members have children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren and we all want intergenerational cooperation. mr. chairman, i have read it. i think it's a little bit goofy. with all due respect, the notion somehow that they focus on medicare advantage that is rocky and his nature conan cut. medicare advantage means that 75% of your members who are senior citizens have see first papers pay $90 a year more. so maybe trying to reform medicare and kitsch speaks to the 75% of your members and 75% of american seniors who are paying more because the system got out of hand. >> you've expressed her rationale. >> i just think i'm glad it's in the record. i hope people look at it. witchhunt is such a nasty turn. i look forward to bringing before s. people who have really crossed the line, people that call mingle fun and push the limits are crossed over them in terms of irs regulations. but i think any fair reading is that your work on preexisting conditions, children's health, end-of-life, medicare reform speaks to what we need to be doing as a country and as a congress. sadly, this morning's exercise moves us no further along towards the implementation that the things that you came out for back in the day used to be bipartisan support in. and sunday, they will again. i appreciate your effort. again, i apologize for being a part of this, but i do hope people understand this but it is no indictment of aarp. it does say something about this committee's operation. thank you and i yield back. >> shunning yields back. i think it is important to note that aarp and it written in formal testimony did not refute any specific conclusions or findings in this report. neither ranking member refuted any specific conclusions or findings in this report in their opening statements. so all of this talk about which congressional staffer was involved with the report or who the committee will investigate next is simply a stunt to draw away from the finding of the report, specifically that aarp students to gain an additional $1 billion over the next 10 years as a result of the democrat health care law. with that, yield five minutes. with that i yield five minutes. i yield five minutes to the lady from tennessee, ms. black. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to begin by saying how disappointed i am that this has been turned into a witchhunt. it is the role and responsibility when there are things that seem to be outside of what should be happening that we should investigate. but have concerns about other operations may not be operated or they have questions that they bring that before this committee. just a personal ax. and prior to coming progress and i was the executive director of a 501(c)(3) health care foundation. we were careful because we were providing funds for the half ago, for which we were the foundation about co-mingling members of our boards. one of the things that concerned me a favor this report report was the fact that you are aarp ain't, the 50 -- 501(c)(4) organization is run by 22 board members, but you also have seven board members from your for-profit and all seven of those board members also served by your other board. and so i am concerned about the co-mingling of word members from your for-profit and private not-for-profit. if you could speak about that, i would appreciate it. >> i'd be glad to if i could. i'm not sure what for-profit you are talking about the seven members. we check in at the grantor trust? the insurance trust? >> now you have -- explain to me how many different boards do have. >> thank you. i appreciate the question because it needs to be clarified. there are basically three different boards that are involved in the aarp organization. one is the aarp board. there's 22 members. there is another board, which is the board for psi, are tax paying affiliate, which has on it to aarp board members. there is a third board, which is the aarp foundation board, which has four board members on it. there are seven toto. but for aarp board members are in the board. the purpose of having the aarp board members on this interlocking boards is to make sure that the mission of aarp is the first priority of each of the boards and that everything that goes through those present concert with her aarp policy and their mission. >> so which of those board sets your rate? the premium rate? >> premium rates are set at the state insurance. >> you have a contract with united? who oversees those contracts? which one of the boards oversee those contracts? >> contracts are not overseen by the board. there overseen by asi. they manage and oversee the contracts. >> you have members from your for-profit or not-for-profit, correct? you said you have to numbers -- >> two board members from aarp -- >> or nonprofit? >> nonprofit on the seven-member board of the asi. >> and so with these three different boards, are they all in the same office? >> no. >> no, they have three different offices with three different managers? so, three different managers -- >> there is the president foundation, president of asi. >> as far as miniatures cocom your administrative staff federal three separate are three separate administrative staffs? >> it's been a few occasions where they may be co-mingled come at the time is that, but there are only a few of those occasions. most of the work is done by the staffs of the individual entities. >> mr. brand, are you the overseer of all of these? >> no cop on the aarp, the c-4. >> nonprofit c-4. >> to use it as an ex officio on any of these motherboards? >> i said on the the board of asi is a nonvoting member. >> i am concerned about the intermingling of these board members have veto power and decisions that are being made by each one of these groups then these members being co-mingled. i am concerned about that and i will be interested to see what the irs looks at the way in which you manage your organization by the co-mingling of what they had to say because i know how sensitive of a situation that was as i've served as the executive or of a nonprofit and for-profit. >> the young lady's time has expired. with akamai we have a series of votes, so we will recess and reconvene immediately after the vote and we will continue with this panel. i apologize it will probably about an hour, but a appreciator indulgence. with that i will recess. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> the committee reconvenes. i'd like to first recognize the chairman of the committee, mr. boustany for a comment. >> thank you, channing. i want to make sure her previous comment he made about mr. levin's comments that i spoke of earlier discussion. i want to be very clear so there is no confusion here that when mr. levin requested the irs commissioners shall mean an irs detail he be assigned republican staff of the committee, detailing would be looking into and i quote for mr. levin's letter, in areas related to tax-exempt organizations and other matters of interest to the ways and means committee. mr. levin was not aware that the detail he would be working on the investigation specifically. i just want to offer the clarification. i yield back. >> the chairman yells back. the chairman from california, mr. becerra is recognized for five minutes. >> chairman, thank you for yielding time. i thank chairman boustany for the clarification, which simply leads to more confusion because the reality is here that we are looking on a document that was prepared without a think the knowledge of most every member on this committee. it appears to be a document that was prepared without the committee staff whole participation. it's certainly nowhere in the document indicates that this is an official report, certainly not an official investigative report by the ways and means committee. and in my 12 plus years have been on this committee, this is the first time i've seen us conduct business this particular way. we are a week away from a government shut down, where this house has been unable to reconcile its differences with the president and their members on the other side of the aisle, which talks about the need to shut the government in order to make the case. we are watching is the discussion about a budget has become more an issue about a social agenda that some members believe they should have attached a fiscal bill. and i would think that most people watching this would wonder, with us just a week away from sandisk government shutdown in the services that would be provided to law that might be interested in this hearing is jeopardy as a result of a government shutdown that they probably wonder, is this the way that those who took control of the house of representatives intend to govern? i don't believe this is anyway to run run the largest economy in the world or the smallest business on main street. and so, i hope we get down to the real business, which i thought -- i remember both sides of the aisle people campaign back in november talking about job creation. jobs, jobs, jobs. i don't know how having this hearing today, where we have requested mr. rand and mr. hammond to testify does anything to create jobs. and maybe this is the way the house of representatives will operate that this is how we do because fortunately with the work that has been done in the last two years, with the president, this congress was able to get the economy back on track. we just heard this morning that the economy was able to generate another quarter of a million new jobs in the last two months, 450,000 jobs created in the earth. but then again, when you recognize that in january of 2009, when new president barack obama was hemorrhaged 487,000 jobs in the pseudo-work right right in front of a. so in this committee, which is perhaps the most important committee in the house, the house, or stimulate the job. we find ourselves essentially engaged in a discrete, aggressive attack on an organization that represents and has for many decades perhaps the population in america which deserves the most respect, those who made it possible for us to be here. and so, i guess this is the business of the day and so we will conduct the business of today. i do hope and chairman boustany has said this and i applaud him, we will continue to do oversight. because whether mr. rand or mr. hammond or any other organization that wishes to get favorable treatment from the taxpayers in this country, we have an obligation to do oversight, to make sure that no one abuses the opportunity to be treated differently than any other american who is paying his or her full share of taxes. and so, i think it would've been wholly wholly appropriate to have aarp or any other nonprofit come before this committee and explain itself. if we legitimately thought there was something going on. and so, i hope, mr. chairman -- i hope will conduct true oversight because i can tell you about any number of organizations that swindle the american public out of precious contributions and very few things that are good for this country. the biggest concern i have is that -- it's actually kind of funny here today i realized i was walking back here today is april 1st, april fools' day. and the fact we've been at this for over an hour to be a joke, but this is not a joke and my sense is that is not a joke because i suspect what we are trying to do here, with some are trying to do through the hearings is perhaps silence voices instead of have full participation in the process. and i hope, mr. chairman, this is not an effort to silence voices of seniors in america because my understanding with regard to medicare, medicaid and social security, there separates underweight to cut benefits and i hope that this house -- willing to do the hearings that it takes to show the american people we're working for them, not against them. i yield back the balance of my time. >> mr. kind is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i went to thank you for your presence here today. your patience is appreciated and to echo what my colleagues in california said, you know, you may think this to be some kind of cruel april 1st joke colony before a congressional committee, but it really is him. whatever you are subjected to a prosecutorial congress committee is a serious matter and i think it's unfortunate he has i do want to describe in a modest on the other side, but the surface appears to be or may selective retribution or political retribution. there are many other organizations and individuals who could be sitting out there right now it's in the same types of questions and inquiries you have been subjected to over the last few hours, but they're not in a think that's unfortunate. if there's anything that ultimately works for the tax code, it is a feeling it is applied in a dress fairly to everyone in this country and not be news to some type of political weapon. we can go through it with the organizations that are collecting royalties or licensing fees, tax exempt from television patience to universities and the chamber of commerce, the nfib, association of health insurance plans and on and on and on, that same questions can be directed here. and on the surface it just smacks the political richard duchenne. and everyone on this committee and sure is not in complete agreement with aarp and where they come on policy issues. i was number two in 2004 when you are supporting the medicare modernization act, which i'll created the new prescription drug is a plan for seniors. the main reason i wasn't as because it was the largest expansion of entitlement spending since medicare was created in 1965 and a nickel of that was paid for. at all what to deficit financing. a prohibitive price negotiation of drug companies that bill. significant policy differences. and yet, republicans have controlled the congress was a bill that offered a new supported it. they were not coming back the next week or the next month, subject to need these questions. it was only after you have the audacity to support the affordable care act that they want to call you before here and start questioning you about your loyalty payments for making a list of organizations could very well be subjected to the same line of inquiry. former representative. capitol hill publication here titled don't play politics with aarp. and in that article, i'd like to just quote one paragraph that he wrote. the fact is that the organization of aarp did significant revenue from selling products, but that is an unusual. many nonprofit health insurers like carefirst, member organizations like nra to my trade associations like the american bankers association and human service pack goodies like the red cross get significant revenue from product sales and in licensing. that's the point i was just making. mr. rand, maybe you can inform the committee how many members duchesne members does aarp have today. [inaudible] >> 37, just shy of 40 million. it is my understanding that aarp does not spend a nickel to rackley advocating the election of any candidate running for office in the united states. is that correct? >> that's correct and we don't have a pack. >> said in a contributing campaign funds to any person, republican, democrat or otherwise running for office. i do want to on the spot, but the 60 plus association is an alternative of aarp. gina how many dues paying members the association has? >> i don't know. >> let me answer that for you. none, zero. they take all the contributions for the interests out there that don't have to be disclosed in turnaround at gram-negative political act against candidates throughout the country familiar a tax exempt organization. it's not surprising that we don't find him sitting next to you here today either because they basically one on the attack against democratic candidates in the last election cycle. let me also ask you that, you know, let me get to the crucial question here. i think aarp supported the affordable care act today because there was direct financial benefit for you of what was ms legislation that was passed? or was it based on substantive policy regions of why you supported the affordable care act? >> had nothing to do with revenues. it was 100% focused on our mission and what our seniors and 50 plus populations were saying they needed for the american dream. >> and what more specifically found in the affordable care act made sense for your members to mount the support of that? >> we talked about no preexisting conditions, which is what they wanted, which we advocated for. stop being of age discrimination through a trading, which they said as we get older we have less money. >> i want to thank our witnesses, you mr. rand, mr. hammond for participating today's hearing. with that, that will conclude our first panel that they took up her second panel. >> mr. chairman. >> please. >> mr. chairman? >> yes. >> ester chairman, according to the release on march 25th, it to commit britain comments as long as they follow set forth as an advisor. is that correct? >> yes, that is correct. >> and compliance to any organization, is that correct? >> that is correct. >> and so, mr. chairman, with that the weather witness before us today, aarp? >> now, our witnesses today have had an opportunity to submit testimony because they've already had that opportunity. >> can i respond to that, mr. chairman? >> well, again, aarp has had their opport