me. >> host: let me say up front this is your personal story as well as the work or the result of your work in science. by the heart and soul of it i would say can and hope if i'm wrong to tell me i'm wrong, is that you were saying, you know what, i think you estimate there are 20 plus million americans who do illegal drugs. >> guest: i don't estimate. the national government conducts a survey every year, and this is been known for some time. there's 20 plus million americans who use drugs on the record basis. >> host: and then you also say that over the generations, over time, people have always used drugs. >> guest: people have always used drugs and people always will use drugs. that's effective birds fly and then get high. >> host: i didn't know that one. but your point in writing this book as a scientist is that given these realities, the impact that drugs have on social policy, on race, on our culture and is oftentimes distorted by lack of evidence-based thinking. that is a people rely on anecdotes or on fears rather than on the facts. so is that the heart and soul of this book? has been it's the heart and soul of the book. one things that up and coming from you is drugs have been used as scapegoats. whenever our social problems and so forth, we use drugs as scapegoats. the problem for me is that people who look like me are often scapegoated more so than other folks, and as a scientist who knows the facts about drugs, that's very disturbing. >> host: okay. i would think as a black person it would be very disturbing. >> guest: that's exactly what any. >> host: let's stop for a second then and try to understand something that is race related industry card, which you say is just an outrage, which is the fact that when you look at something-1980s and crack cocaine use, you say people identified as at a black committee problem. but, in fact, more whites used crack than blacks. and similarly, more blacks went to jail, arrested for crack use, than whites even though more whites were using the drug. how do you explain that? >> guest: i explain it by, it's kind of simple. the short answer is racism. and this isn't new. when i say racism i mean that what we do is we put our police resources and committees of colors, black communities, and you can easily get people, catch people doing something illegal. no matter what, i drive my car, for example, i sometimes passed the speed limit. that's an illegal activity. now, if they want they can give me a ticket. but that doesn't happen because the resources are not where i'm at most of the time. i hang out on the upper west side. but if you want to catch people doing crimes, you put your police resources in those communities. that's what's happened. this isn't new but one of the things, like the crack cocaine thing, it's important to know that in the early 1900s cocaine was used by a wide number of americans. it wasn't coca-cola for example. it was in a number of products. now, there was concern to black people started to use cocaine. for example, "the new york times" wrote an article in 1914 about black folks being new southern miss but black cocaine seen as being a new seven minutes, and the way that cocaine was talked about or black people being under the influence was taught, under the influence of cocaine was talked about it cause them to be more murderous. it cause them to rape white women to it cause them to be unaffected by bullets. all of this nonsense. this is going on then and it's going on now. although the language has been tempered, but drugs are such easy scapegoats because most of the population don't use drugs. you can't say these things about alcohol. even though alcohol is pharmacologically active and just like any other drug like cocaine and the rest of these things, but you can't say he's crazy things about alcohol because many people drink alcohol and they know the effects of our goal. fewer people use cocaine and so you can tell these incredible stories about cocaine. >> host: but you think that it's still the case today that you could credibly, c-span anywhere else, but so you're not here and say oh, yeah, people who use cocaine gained supreme strength, or as that "new york times" article said, if you shoot me and my late i will feel, i think everyone would say you're crazy. >> guest: was go back a couple years ago. there was an incident in miami where the second i think they called him a zombie incident where he chewed off the face of another guy. do you recall that? and originally and said, the report was that the person was on bath salts, a new drug. so whenever there's a new drug or new form of drug, you can see these incredible stories about the drug can be believed. and certainly it was believed that bath salts caused this guy to choose this guys face off. now, when the toxicology, which had to see was was in this person's system, there was a vassal to do anything in the person system with marijuana. enough that marijuana was even in the system, not to get recently smoked marijuana. we just know that marijuana was in his system. now, so with crack cocaine, the things that we said about crack cocaine in the 1980s, we said that it cause this incredible amount of violence. now, we couldn't have said that about powder cocaine. we could have said that about powder cocaine because the number of americans were using powder cocaine, particularly americans who were middle-class. and so we had to have a new route smoking it, not powder cocaine but the crack cocaine caused these incredible effects. and we believed it as a country. in part because we got was something he. when if fact they are the same drug. >> host: you were saying something to oftentimes leads to this kind of hysterically actions? >> but there is anything new to you on any new drugs on the scene. that's just a myth for the most part. many of these drugs have been with us for ever. >> i hear about new drugs, club drugs. i love all the names people take and there are more chemical compounds i believe in marijuana. >> guest: let's just think about. let's think about methamphetamine. people act like that's a new drug. that's been around since the early 1900. we think about ecstasy, one of the club drugs in the early 2000 people discovered that they thought this was something new. it was an. it's been with us since 1912. so many of these have been with us, it's just that they get a new group of users and then with a new group of users is a group that we despise, that's a recipe for the hysteria that we see. >> host: let's come back to i think the point of it which is lots of americans use illegal drugs. and your argument is not for drug legalization. by the way, among the americans you point out good use illegal drugs, president obama, president bush, george h. w. bush, and also bill clinton. and you say these are people who have acknowledged drug use but have gone on to do great things. and you point out as you just did that they weren't caught up in the network of police arrest, that can oftentimes derail success in america. now, when you look at the use of illegal drugs, and your point, again, not for legalization%, but for education. can you talk about the idea that people should know what's in a psychoactive drug before they get involved? and one of your arguments that i thought with us and is most people use the legal drugs are not addicts, by your definition doesn't interfere with parenting, with work or with relationships. i think most americans, if they heard this they would say but, dr. hart, you're taking away all of the hype and fear that we want our children to hear, that it might be better to say to children, don't do drugs. even if your argument is true, there are people who do illegal drugs and don't suffer consequences. wifebeating it better given what you said about the police and networks and the crime that is attached? why wouldn't you say, it's better to say decades, don't do drugs? >> guest: well, for one i'm a professor, right? so one of the things that i think is more important is to teach people how to think. and so when you say don't do drugs, or just say no, there's no sort of thinking going on there. now, if you have a curious kid, what you would hope you would have, your kid will be curious to find out for themselves but and so my issue is that why not give the kid the proper education? so if they choose to indulge, many will not, but if they do choose to indulge, they will be safe. that's number one. so i enjoyed myself but i have a 12 year-old an 18 year-old and a 30 euro. but my 12 and 18 euros, there in that age group where you worry. but my kids, i worry far more about the environment which we created, the history but because that environment allows police officers to look at my kids like they fit the description of a drug user. and so i fear that interaction with my kids interaction with the police a hell of a lot more than a good interaction from my kid with drugs. because i can teach them about drugs because i know that drug effects are predictable. but his interaction with black boys and police, that's not predictable. >> host: but both could be avoided by avoiding drug use. >> guest: certainly. and my kids might avoid but the point is is that there are kids who won't. and so if they do not avoid it, at least you're keeping them safe by having them have the education, giving them the correct information. not only that, not on teaching them about drugs which are teaching them how to think critically. are teaching them how to evaluate information. that's what we valley. that's what i got as a professor. >> host: you talked about legalization people to think i want to make clear is that yeah, i'm not encouraging legalization. i am for decriminalization. decriminalization is like this but what you did is the drugs are still illegal, but when people are caught, instead of having a criminal record, they receive a civil fine just like they would it have a driving violation. in that way you get rid of this notion or this impact on their futures. if they get caught they don't have a criminal record, they can go on, they can get a job. they can maybe become president. but as long as we these things illegal, that is less likely. >> host: so, in this book you talk about your own expenses. and to talk about smoking marijuana and doing cocaine. and look at you, you become extraordinarily successful by any measure. and you say, again, that most drug users are not going to be involved in crime, although you say addiction and crime are related. you say that most drug users are not going to get involved with criminal activity. most have jobs. you say most have full-time jobs. so what's the difference then, if you're talking to your son, not to me, you say, what's the difference between the smart way to use illegal drugs and a dumb way? >> guest: so one of the things that you have to do come and people are using illegal drugs, or any drugs, even drugs from the physician, they should know what the effects are. for example, if you take an amphetamine, one thing is good at doing is keeping you awake. now, sleep is a central sort of function for human behavior and physiology. if your sleep is disrupted too much, you can have all kinds of problems, psychological problems, health problems, a wide range of disorders have been associated with sleep disruption. you want to make sure every taking amphetamines yet taking it near bedtime but if you take amphetamine you want to make sure you're getting the proper amount of sleep, that's when. ever think about something like everyone, one of the things that we has failed as a country is to properly educate people about say, heroin overdose. the country thinks that it's relatively easy to od from heroin. that's just not true. is not supported by evidence that the problem becomes when heroin is mixed with another sedative, like alcohol. so 75% of the heroin overdose deaths occur in combination with something like alcohol. now, given that that's the case, the public health message is clear. don't use heroin in combination with another sedative. if you just simply blasted that message out to the public, we could save a number of lives, and we have and. so that's another story. let's think about other drug. let's think about cocaine. one of the things that we know is that cocaine is cut off and with these, cut with a drug with an annual -- with side effects is that it decreases white blood cells but that means that it decreases the body's ability to fight off infection. people can get sick and extreme cases die. so given that that's the case and what to make sure people understand that, hey, if you're using cocaine, a large percentage of it nowadays is cut. you might want to stay away from that. that should be one of those, stay away from the cocaine on the street because of what he is being cut with you or you might want to want to do is think it would. because they are often many cases more problematic than actual drug itself. but the public health message isn't getting out there with the real problems are, instead we're too busy trying to fill five are typical drugs, cocaine, heroin, marijuana, as opposed to making sure that we educate. >> host: well, i think that, again, we've gone back to this idea to nancy reagan words come to, just say no to drugs, or the war on drugs but to point out in the book is simply more than 3000% increase in the amount of spending on the war on drugs between 1970-2011, with very little consequence in terms of depressing to use of marijuana, heroin or cocaine. so by that measure not much difference. but again, from a parent's point of view, i really want my children to take the risk and say well, you know, don't use this drug withou with a drug orw that this drug is cut with this question really want to educate them in this way if there's the risk that a mic and say to them while you know what? is okay to use drugs? >> guest: if your parenting, focused around on drug education, you're in trouble as a parent. you should educating your kids about responsibility, about the future, about a wide range of things. if your parenting is focus on drug use, you already in trouble. my parenting rarely focus on drug use but my parenting is making sure that my kids get into the proper cause. make sure that they understand responsibility to make sure that they know how to write and communicate. those sorts of things but if your parenting is focus on drugs, you're in trouble. because all of these things that i just described, that is the best drug prevention. not this whole just say no sort of thing. and if the kids come if they are curious and want to know about drugs, teach it. because if they do in college, they will at least be safe because we know, i mean, my research myself, my research, in my research i've given over 2000 doses of these drugs but so i know these drugs can be given safely and i know they administered safely. i mean, you don't have to look at my research. you can ask americans. asked the guy in the white house to ask the guy before. asked the guy before him. if we think about even president kennedy, he used amphetamines. throughout his administration city. we reviewing the we think he is my contribution to so this notion of drugs being so dangerous, it's misguided and it's very limited, that focus. >> host: is a possible people who are like weekend users of heroin or cocaine, and you say this doesn't message of into fear with their ambition, with their discipline. is that right? it seems to me almost counterintuitive that if someone is using such strong psychoactive drugs, that they are a fully functioning member of the community gets back when we say strong psychoactive drugs, one of the strongest is nicotine but we don't make that statement that you may. switches requires a small amount of nicotine to have its effect. i think every secret there's like one milligram. one milligram of cocaine wouldn't do anything. so the notion that these drugs are strong, that's a myth. >> host: it's a myth. so you think that we talk about our call and tobacco, that they may be more deleterious to my well being than cocaine or heroin? >> guest: certainly. the thing that we have to understand is that with education we can enhance the positive effects of all of these drugs, including alcohol, including cocaine, including heroin. and with education we can decrease the negative effects. so the first thing we have to understand is that yes, there are people who can use cocaine on the weekends. hare went on the weekend, go to work and pay their taxes. the question that you asked about heroin and cocaine, just think about asking the same question for alcohol. are the people who can drink alcohol on the weekend and then go to work on monday and be responsible as individuals? not yet -- not yes, but hell yes. the same is true. >> host: even though in the american public's mind those two drugs are far more powerful? >> guest: yes. the things that are in the american public's mind, sometimes are not right, to be nice. the public as i said has just been miseducated about drugs. >> host: here we are in hoosier book, again the book is called "high price: a neuroscientist's journey of self-discovery that challenges everything you know about drugs and society." tell us, what would you say? here you are. you have this platform on c-span. what is it that we should know? >> guest: what we were talking about what we should know, i mean, a notion that drugs that most of the people who use drugs for example, are addicted, just nonot too. mostly people use drugs, they do so, they go to work. if you're going to use any drugs, you should understand that you should respect the fact that they have powerful, potentially powerful psychoactive substances. if you don't use drugs with that respect, you run the risk of getting in trouble. so if you know about the effects of the drugs that you're taking, then you increase the likelihood that you'll be safe. >> host: where to go for such information transferred my book for one. there is can one of the things we think that in a, then it contains a lot of information. there is no quality control. that's a major concern. there are other books that have been written on this subject, like we talked about earlier. i have a textbook on the subject in which we talked mainly about the biological effects of the drugs on peoples behavior, on people. those kind of books are very dry, and the public gets bored. so i think this book, "high price," is a start. >> host: just explain can for the viewer, this book is not a textbook in any way. it's largely your personal story. and then talking of drug use in your life, and then about your research in combination. so we were taught about drug use, for example, you mentioned that you've done cocaine and done over the tatanka i think you said you're doing it like twice a month with a girlfriend, but it's not the case if you ran out of cocaine, you felt any compunction to go get more or you are somehow unable to function because you're using cocaine. instead, you talk about larger motivational forces in your life. your desire to succeed, your desire to earn money, your desire to have a lover. that these were other forces. so let's transfer that now to the lab. you are working with rats. working with rats to use it in this book can you've got to take rats out of his cage to isolate and fiber composite in a more social environment, and then you see that they make choices about drug use that doesn't lead them to kill themselves by constantly pushing the lever. so what you're saying to americans is, you have to see drugs as part of a normal life? >> guest: so when we think about the lab, many of us have heard about the stories where if you allow an animal to self administer a drug like cocaine, it will do so until they kill themselves. but many of us have heard that,