And continue watching booktv all weekend long for more nonfiction authors and books. Visit booktv. Org for more of the weekends television schedule. 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books continues on cspan2. Next Stephen Mansfield talk about lincoln. This is a little under an hour. Thank you. Its good to see you this afternoon. They tell me the best of all of them. Ive been told for the last 45 not really. Im excited about talking to you about this afternoon about lynn on and his faith. One of my areas of fashion and writing about president ial faith. Thats not just because im disagree intrigued how what a president believes theologically. Its because i think we come to the cob collusion, i think we have come to understand that religion forms the world view out of which an executive leader leads. The decision they make. What they choose, what they believe about the middle east, what they believe about morality and everything from sex to education to family to foreign poll. So i dont think is a little side study of president ial study. I dont think its adjust little sub field. I think were reading increasingly that the president ial faith is something that is really important. Sometimes i think we probably wish we have known about president s faith before got elected or ran. So these this is just not an area of bigotry. Its not trying to figure out where do i distribute the person or how can i oppose them theologically. Its about understanding all what we want to understand about how man thinks or woman thinks a they head to role that shape our society. I want to say before i goat lincolns life. If you have the book, youll notice its dedicatedded to the student and faculty at berlin american high school. I went there in berlin, germany. One of the few people i met along with the students there to go high school behind the iron curtain. It no longer exists. But it does in our hearts. I wanted to dedicate that book to them and mention it to you. Lincoln is usual among all of our president s. We all know that. Hes perhaps in some ways more controversial. Hes more beloved than most. Hes always ranked at the top of our president s. It has to do with many, many things. Hes personally endeering. His story is moving and inspiring. You want every child to know it and encourage them to accomplish great things. And also, of course, there are the big magnificent things he did in term of frees slaves and the magnificent words at the time when the president s wrote their own speeches. Unbelievable. The issue of lincolns faith, though, is always fascinating to me. Because not unlike john kennedy, people tend put on lincoln, of course, on ken i can as well. Whatever their own views are. If you are a hawk militarily, well, thats what kennedy was. How people resent him. Whatever you are, whatever the scholar is thats how the life of a kennedy or lincoln. They become a repository of the views. And no one is this more true than in lincolns faith. Lincoln is portrayed as A Billy Graham figure of his age on the one hand, a stalwart christian, advocate for christian morality and world view. We use the phrase born again these days. Thank you. But then on the other hand, the more scholarly side, the more universityor yen ended biography would present him an atheist. You have the complete i did cot my and presentation. Then you run in to a few facts about lincolns life. All you are to is read the necked inauguration address. Which is, you know, right there on the side of the lincoln memorial. You think this is like a serving. Quote, scriptture, speaks of gods will for the world and the nation. Understands the civil war and a theological framework. How could the man be an atheist . We have two streams really. We have people arrayed along the spectrum. For me, the issue is i certainly can have my biases but the issue is to find what the truth is, even if the truth it a journey that is incomplete, i think in lynn lincoln lifes life the journey is incomplete. I think its part of our problem. His life was cut short and i think that we have to slow down a bit not be eager to get him to the alter. Not be egger to draw our conclusions but look at the journey. Thats what i would like to do with you today. So just so you can feel the pain of lincoln historians, let me tell you a story that you probably have not heard. You saw it alluded to in the recent lincoln film. A beautiful film. But even there it wasnt as we have it in the sources. They took some creative licenses, which is their right. When i tell you the story, youre going to see why those of us im certainly not a lincoln scholar. Those who love lincoln and speak of his faith always have to speak in careful terms. Its not that were cowardly about our conclusion. Its that lincoln defies category. Hes always evading our little, you know, positioning of him and the boxes that we have him in. If you saw the lincoln film. You remember there was a scene in which Mary Todd Lincoln and and lincoln at the end of the war are riding in a carriage one day, and its theyll go the theater that night. But its finally the war is lifting a bit. They lost the child during the war, they had suffered horrible mr. Wilson. They had fought loudly. Lincoln had haunted the white house in the wee hours of the morning unto be sleep out of the burden and grief. Its all starting to lift now. Its happened. It its obviously at war is at an end. There are a few cleanup operations left. You have this characterized. And normally if youre reading a biography of lincoln you wont hear much about it. The main quote that comes from it is lincoln saying Something Like we must choose to be happier now that the war is over. Weve been sad because the loss of our son. Thats all you hear. The reality as the film depicts accurately. Lincoln and his wife began to have a conversation during the carriage ride about what they could after the war. It was a along the lines of well not go back to springfield. Well do Something Else. Now in the film, the whole conversation takes place right there. And the language is changed from the sources that we have. Again, creative license. What youve heard lincoln went fords theater. Sat in the box. He and his wife are in a flirty mood from the days carriage ride. Were all are in. And he turns mrs. Lincoln says to him what will miss harris think of me hanging on do you so. She was the young woman part of the couple they were sort of Double Dating with. Lincoln said shell think nothing of it at all. Then john willings boothe fired. Thats the way its normally presented and see in films. Thats the way its normally described in history boobs. But thats not the way Mary Todd Lincoln, herself the only one close enough to know said it went. She said it was more like this. They had begun a conversation finished the conversation. Listen to where its about. Mrs. Lincoln says what will miss harris think of my hanging ton you. And lincoln said shell think nothing of it. John wills boothe is working the way in to the box. Lincoln says this is according to todd. We will not return immediately we will goad abroad among strange wrers i can rest. Theres more time and john is making his way further to the box and he says to her. We will visit the holy land. And that thing hangs in the air and you can see the film playing in my brain. He makes further progress in to the boothe then finally toward as the drama increases and the play is going on on the stage below. Lincoln said we will visit the holy land and see the places hallowed by the footstep of the savior. Then just before john boothe gun enters his brain. Lincoln is heard to say theres no place i so much desire to see. As jerusalem. Now i want you to bear in mind that lincoln never championinged a joined a church. As he said these words, hes in a bawdy play on good friday. He was known for a crass sense of humor. He never made any kind of clear of a formation of faith in jesus cris. He was suspicious of pretures for a good portion of his life. As ill share in a moment during some of his life he was the village atheist. Theres not anything that would lead us to conclude that lincoln, as far as the traditional story. That lincoln would dont last moment of his life and the statement would be i would like to walk in the step of the savior. We didnt know he thought of jesus cris as the savior. We didnt know he wouldnt want to go back to springfield but the holy hand. This is a surprise. This is the problem for those trying to track his faith. Almost all of the stories you cherish about lincoln came years after he died from people who are recalling this later. Theres not. Being written. Lincoln was not popular with an arguably a majority of the United States population. What happened later is that there were a great deal of research and people scouting out stories about lincoln. There was always the older man sit on the town square who had a memory. The hes the only person who was there and happened twenty years ago. Im sure this is what happened with lincoln. He what chopped down the cherry tree or threw a nickel across you understand. So you that kind of thing. This has every indication of being true. Historians tend to take it fairly seriously. One of the finest of lincoln scholars takes it seriously. Wayne temple. One of the finest leading scholar on lincolns faith i dont think we have any other source. Anyone who writes about the carriage ride or says anything about lincoln wanting to go to the hmoly land after the land has drawn from the interview. It happen almost 17 years after lincoln died. So even now if i stop and pulled everybody we would have some uncertainty. This is the nature. You cant build on any one thing. Theres a journey that lincoln undergoes that getss us the theater that maybe makes some sense out of these words that he spoke and at the very least doesnt leave us with a simplistic kind of conclusion. He was a payen, he was billy graham. Theres always gray area. Theres nuance always. Theres a journey that may be more fascinating, in some cases with, than the conclusion. Let me take you briefly on the religious journey of lincoln. Its important to know that lincoln was born in 1809. You probably know that february 1, 1809. What you may not know lincoln was born as a great religious sergeant in america was happening. It was called the second great awakingen. The first great awakening happened before the American Revolution. This great awakening started in places like yale and with preachers charles. You might remember from history. It moved to the frontier. That would have been the version of the reviable that lincoln would have known as a young man. It was upsetting to him as much many good social things question say the rerieflt did. By the time it hit the frontier it was wild. People, you know, great big huge open spaces in the woods and prairie as many as 10 to 20,000 people assembled for the huge preaching times. It was a powerful force in american history, and yet by again by the time it reached the frontier, you had people getting the spirit and running around the whole camp. You had people barking. Some people try to cat log these exercises they would call it the tree exercise because the guy would get the spirit and run up a tree. And people would bring their lawn chairs and a judge and watch what the create revivalists were going go. There were extremes, there were excesses. You imagine that if there was the kind of faith, it was the kind of theological religious emphasis that lincoln was growing up in. Given he was a sensitive soul and intelligent young man, a bookish young man. It would not have captured him. It was the majority of the faith kind of faith offered at the time. It wasnt the only kind of faith or christian expression offered at the country at out time. It was around him. And you can understand a young, sensitive man recoiling from it. The other issue that sort of starts him in a slightly negative direction about some of these issues is that lincoln and his father had a horrible relationship. Many famous men and women have had a negative relationship with a parent. Its qien defined them. The problem with lincolns father he was a harsh man who thought nothing about beating his son. He would be weepy about jesus and spiritual thing. You take a beating and work hard. The money you earned at the neighbors farm has been taken. You sit through dinner listening to your father weep about mercy and grace. Whatever truth it wasnt building a connection between father and son. And theres historians often point at the fact lincoln never went his fathers fiewn funeral. Once when his father was dying a relative wrote said you should see him. He said it would be too horrible for both. The yet he had a deep love of scriptture and poetry, a deep love of spiritual thing that came from his mother. His mother was remarkable woman. She was a woman largely ill literate. She was a woman one of my favorite truth about the lincoln family lincolns mother was known or to be the best wrestler in kentucky. It was a time when men and women wrested together. Flairt historically you have a kentucky extreme Court Justice say you threw me. Not something you hear today. There are funny things about her. She was a mystical woman. She a good memory. She knew pieces of the constitution, celtic poetry that came down from the line. She brought him to a love of. She brought him in to a sense theres a god and reseems himself in nature. Some kind of a religious and theological orientation which he leaned to more than he leaned to his father kind of revivalistic faith. What is important about all of that is that while lincoln had a religious turning. A mystical cast to his soul and mind because of his mothers influence. When he turned 21, he got away, which was the first time legally he could have done it. According to the law at the time. He owed his father service until 21. At 21 he split and left. What is surprising to us is where he went and the religious influence it had upon him. We remember the name of the town salem in connection with with lincoln. At 21 he went to salem. You would think it would be post out there in illinois maybe most people ill literate. It would be typical small town ruins in movies and so on. The real city that because of the great passion for selfeducation in america. The great belief that if there arent schools we should be reading and get not a society and talking to each other and ourselves learn so we dont become barbarian. When lincoln laned in salem. He landed in an intellectual town. A town that was theological liberal with many smart people who talked see the tholing all the time. Its american selftaught selfeducation theme that is so huge. Jefferson teaches himself ten languages. One of them arabic inspect is just the theme we have in the history. In to his thinking. Many the American Revolution was conducted in a high religious surge in the american colony after the war, the churches had been idescrod. Pastors were skilled. Bibles burned. As a result of that and the enlightenment influence of philosophically you have a turning against christianity. Thomas paine war hero for writing, as he did, and citing, you know, with common sense much of the war. He writes a book age of reason. Lincoln loves it. Theres a french scholar who write about the nation and how silly religion is and cast out. Lincoln loves it. Because he had a crass czar sarcastic loves burns and could codo the ideal scottish broking. He also the great selfeducation gift he had that we hear about early age walking five miles a day to borrow a book. It was wonderful in term of facing him intelligent intent julie. He essentially started drinking the water which were liberal. The issue here is that lincoln is i think so angry at religion in general. That he not only ash absorbs this. He goes further. His friends member all of his their lives that lincoln hated religion. That lincoln spoke of a price used the crass word for that. Many had times when he was using making a conversation he wouldnt use the name jesus. He would say the bastard. And say that over and over. People would wince. If even they were moving away from traditional faith. They certainly werent trying to, you know, be that crass about it. That sounds lime thomas paine. Hes angry and passionate and calling price name and talking about the bible being mythologies and so on. And some of his friends who knew that he was had some political aspirations knew this was dangerous. These are two of the most fascinating issues. Ill move on a little bit more rapidly with a story of the faith. I hope we never lose mment rethat lose the memory that lincoln fought horrible depression. Friends said he was saddest man he ever said. One said he dripped melon coolly while he walked. His mother had been quote, possessed of a particular spirit of sadness. There are books on this. We wouldnt had the lincoln we had if hasnt battled depression. Its not just a temporary sad in his life. It was not a small thing. He suffered disabilitying depression. His friends had to go on suicide watch many time. Part of it was almost certainly inherited. Almost somehow in the genes. He suffered horrible death in his life. He said to a friend once he was haunted by the thought of water falling on graves. That he had lost his mother. He lost his sister, he lost an aunt and uncle. When his mother died at the age of 9 he helped his father make the coffin and bury her. He was a hands on experience. The first woman he ever loved died within a short time and died horribly as his mother did of milk sickness. Death probably genetic predispositions. He was dress dpressive. His friends would write and say it was the time he went crazy. That was the time we had to take the raisers from the room. It was a serious issue. It was not temporary sadness. The thing that ask not know when i began writing the book, that i have never really heard discussed i found it later hidden in some historian writing or mentioned lightly. It may have been at the heart of lincolns depression and also much his rejection of god. It is that lincoln was ab absolutely tortured by the fact that his mother was ill legitimate. He, again, used that b word bastard he uses of jesus for his own mother. Saints hard for us to understand if. If i was born without knowing my parents you wouldnt think of less me in our generation. This a time when first sons are considered to be morally superior to second sons. Its a different culture. Lincoln believes that somehow he was cursed because his mother was ill legitimate. In fact even the good thing about him he thought were somehow stolen. Apparently a virginia aristocrat had raped his grandmother and lincoln spoke of his good equipment quality of having symptommen as he was the thief. Its hard understand. This is absolutely on the documents. Then on talk about the rest of his family not being bright as having what he would have been the recipient intellectual gift. Its an odd way of thinking. All of his friends, especially the closest sobers said he thought i was cursed. And the ill legitimacy on his part and his mothers was a mark that god rejected him. Lincoln spoke and wrote and his friends reported he b