Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book TV 20131012

And continue watching booktv all weekend long for more nonfiction authors and books. Visit booktv. Org for more of the weekends television schedule. 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books continues on cspan2. Next Stephen Mansfield talk about lincoln. This is a little under an hour. Thank you. Its good to see you this afternoon. They tell me the best of all of them. Ive been told for the last 45 not really. Im excited about talking to you about this afternoon about lynn on and his faith. One of my areas of fashion and writing about president ial faith. Thats not just because im disagree intrigued how what a president believes theologically. Its because i think we come to the cob collusion, i think we have come to understand that religion forms the world view out of which an executive leader leads. The decision they make. What they choose, what they believe about the middle east, what they believe about morality and everything from sex to education to family to foreign poll. So i dont think is a little side study of president ial study. I dont think its adjust little sub field. I think were reading increasingly that the president ial faith is something that is really important. Sometimes i think we probably wish we have known about president s faith before got elected or ran. So these this is just not an area of bigotry. Its not trying to figure out where do i distribute the person or how can i oppose them theologically. Its about understanding all what we want to understand about how man thinks or woman thinks a they head to role that shape our society. I want to say before i goat lincolns life. If you have the book, youll notice its dedicatedded to the student and faculty at berlin american high school. I went there in berlin, germany. One of the few people i met along with the students there to go high school behind the iron curtain. It no longer exists. But it does in our hearts. I wanted to dedicate that book to them and mention it to you. Lincoln is usual among all of our president s. We all know that. Hes perhaps in some ways more controversial. Hes more beloved than most. Hes always ranked at the top of our president s. It has to do with many, many things. Hes personally endeering. His story is moving and inspiring. You want every child to know it and encourage them to accomplish great things. And also, of course, there are the big magnificent things he did in term of frees slaves and the magnificent words at the time when the president s wrote their own speeches. Unbelievable. The issue of lincolns faith, though, is always fascinating to me. Because not unlike john kennedy, people tend put on lincoln, of course, on ken i can as well. Whatever their own views are. If you are a hawk militarily, well, thats what kennedy was. How people resent him. Whatever you are, whatever the scholar is thats how the life of a kennedy or lincoln. They become a repository of the views. And no one is this more true than in lincolns faith. Lincoln is portrayed as A Billy Graham figure of his age on the one hand, a stalwart christian, advocate for christian morality and world view. We use the phrase born again these days. Thank you. But then on the other hand, the more scholarly side, the more universityor yen ended biography would present him an atheist. You have the complete i did cot my and presentation. Then you run in to a few facts about lincolns life. All you are to is read the necked inauguration address. Which is, you know, right there on the side of the lincoln memorial. You think this is like a serving. Quote, scriptture, speaks of gods will for the world and the nation. Understands the civil war and a theological framework. How could the man be an atheist . We have two streams really. We have people arrayed along the spectrum. For me, the issue is i certainly can have my biases but the issue is to find what the truth is, even if the truth it a journey that is incomplete, i think in lynn lincoln lifes life the journey is incomplete. I think its part of our problem. His life was cut short and i think that we have to slow down a bit not be eager to get him to the alter. Not be egger to draw our conclusions but look at the journey. Thats what i would like to do with you today. So just so you can feel the pain of lincoln historians, let me tell you a story that you probably have not heard. You saw it alluded to in the recent lincoln film. A beautiful film. But even there it wasnt as we have it in the sources. They took some creative licenses, which is their right. When i tell you the story, youre going to see why those of us im certainly not a lincoln scholar. Those who love lincoln and speak of his faith always have to speak in careful terms. Its not that were cowardly about our conclusion. Its that lincoln defies category. Hes always evading our little, you know, positioning of him and the boxes that we have him in. If you saw the lincoln film. You remember there was a scene in which Mary Todd Lincoln and and lincoln at the end of the war are riding in a carriage one day, and its theyll go the theater that night. But its finally the war is lifting a bit. They lost the child during the war, they had suffered horrible mr. Wilson. They had fought loudly. Lincoln had haunted the white house in the wee hours of the morning unto be sleep out of the burden and grief. Its all starting to lift now. Its happened. It its obviously at war is at an end. There are a few cleanup operations left. You have this characterized. And normally if youre reading a biography of lincoln you wont hear much about it. The main quote that comes from it is lincoln saying Something Like we must choose to be happier now that the war is over. Weve been sad because the loss of our son. Thats all you hear. The reality as the film depicts accurately. Lincoln and his wife began to have a conversation during the carriage ride about what they could after the war. It was a along the lines of well not go back to springfield. Well do Something Else. Now in the film, the whole conversation takes place right there. And the language is changed from the sources that we have. Again, creative license. What youve heard lincoln went fords theater. Sat in the box. He and his wife are in a flirty mood from the days carriage ride. Were all are in. And he turns mrs. Lincoln says to him what will miss harris think of me hanging on do you so. She was the young woman part of the couple they were sort of Double Dating with. Lincoln said shell think nothing of it at all. Then john willings boothe fired. Thats the way its normally presented and see in films. Thats the way its normally described in history boobs. But thats not the way Mary Todd Lincoln, herself the only one close enough to know said it went. She said it was more like this. They had begun a conversation finished the conversation. Listen to where its about. Mrs. Lincoln says what will miss harris think of my hanging ton you. And lincoln said shell think nothing of it. John wills boothe is working the way in to the box. Lincoln says this is according to todd. We will not return immediately we will goad abroad among strange wrers i can rest. Theres more time and john is making his way further to the box and he says to her. We will visit the holy land. And that thing hangs in the air and you can see the film playing in my brain. He makes further progress in to the boothe then finally toward as the drama increases and the play is going on on the stage below. Lincoln said we will visit the holy land and see the places hallowed by the footstep of the savior. Then just before john boothe gun enters his brain. Lincoln is heard to say theres no place i so much desire to see. As jerusalem. Now i want you to bear in mind that lincoln never championinged a joined a church. As he said these words, hes in a bawdy play on good friday. He was known for a crass sense of humor. He never made any kind of clear of a formation of faith in jesus cris. He was suspicious of pretures for a good portion of his life. As ill share in a moment during some of his life he was the village atheist. Theres not anything that would lead us to conclude that lincoln, as far as the traditional story. That lincoln would dont last moment of his life and the statement would be i would like to walk in the step of the savior. We didnt know he thought of jesus cris as the savior. We didnt know he wouldnt want to go back to springfield but the holy hand. This is a surprise. This is the problem for those trying to track his faith. Almost all of the stories you cherish about lincoln came years after he died from people who are recalling this later. Theres not. Being written. Lincoln was not popular with an arguably a majority of the United States population. What happened later is that there were a great deal of research and people scouting out stories about lincoln. There was always the older man sit on the town square who had a memory. The hes the only person who was there and happened twenty years ago. Im sure this is what happened with lincoln. He what chopped down the cherry tree or threw a nickel across you understand. So you that kind of thing. This has every indication of being true. Historians tend to take it fairly seriously. One of the finest of lincoln scholars takes it seriously. Wayne temple. One of the finest leading scholar on lincolns faith i dont think we have any other source. Anyone who writes about the carriage ride or says anything about lincoln wanting to go to the hmoly land after the land has drawn from the interview. It happen almost 17 years after lincoln died. So even now if i stop and pulled everybody we would have some uncertainty. This is the nature. You cant build on any one thing. Theres a journey that lincoln undergoes that getss us the theater that maybe makes some sense out of these words that he spoke and at the very least doesnt leave us with a simplistic kind of conclusion. He was a payen, he was billy graham. Theres always gray area. Theres nuance always. Theres a journey that may be more fascinating, in some cases with, than the conclusion. Let me take you briefly on the religious journey of lincoln. Its important to know that lincoln was born in 1809. You probably know that february 1, 1809. What you may not know lincoln was born as a great religious sergeant in america was happening. It was called the second great awakingen. The first great awakening happened before the American Revolution. This great awakening started in places like yale and with preachers charles. You might remember from history. It moved to the frontier. That would have been the version of the reviable that lincoln would have known as a young man. It was upsetting to him as much many good social things question say the rerieflt did. By the time it hit the frontier it was wild. People, you know, great big huge open spaces in the woods and prairie as many as 10 to 20,000 people assembled for the huge preaching times. It was a powerful force in american history, and yet by again by the time it reached the frontier, you had people getting the spirit and running around the whole camp. You had people barking. Some people try to cat log these exercises they would call it the tree exercise because the guy would get the spirit and run up a tree. And people would bring their lawn chairs and a judge and watch what the create revivalists were going go. There were extremes, there were excesses. You imagine that if there was the kind of faith, it was the kind of theological religious emphasis that lincoln was growing up in. Given he was a sensitive soul and intelligent young man, a bookish young man. It would not have captured him. It was the majority of the faith kind of faith offered at the time. It wasnt the only kind of faith or christian expression offered at the country at out time. It was around him. And you can understand a young, sensitive man recoiling from it. The other issue that sort of starts him in a slightly negative direction about some of these issues is that lincoln and his father had a horrible relationship. Many famous men and women have had a negative relationship with a parent. Its qien defined them. The problem with lincolns father he was a harsh man who thought nothing about beating his son. He would be weepy about jesus and spiritual thing. You take a beating and work hard. The money you earned at the neighbors farm has been taken. You sit through dinner listening to your father weep about mercy and grace. Whatever truth it wasnt building a connection between father and son. And theres historians often point at the fact lincoln never went his fathers fiewn funeral. Once when his father was dying a relative wrote said you should see him. He said it would be too horrible for both. The yet he had a deep love of scriptture and poetry, a deep love of spiritual thing that came from his mother. His mother was remarkable woman. She was a woman largely ill literate. She was a woman one of my favorite truth about the lincoln family lincolns mother was known or to be the best wrestler in kentucky. It was a time when men and women wrested together. Flairt historically you have a kentucky extreme Court Justice say you threw me. Not something you hear today. There are funny things about her. She was a mystical woman. She a good memory. She knew pieces of the constitution, celtic poetry that came down from the line. She brought him to a love of. She brought him in to a sense theres a god and reseems himself in nature. Some kind of a religious and theological orientation which he leaned to more than he leaned to his father kind of revivalistic faith. What is important about all of that is that while lincoln had a religious turning. A mystical cast to his soul and mind because of his mothers influence. When he turned 21, he got away, which was the first time legally he could have done it. According to the law at the time. He owed his father service until 21. At 21 he split and left. What is surprising to us is where he went and the religious influence it had upon him. We remember the name of the town salem in connection with with lincoln. At 21 he went to salem. You would think it would be post out there in illinois maybe most people ill literate. It would be typical small town ruins in movies and so on. The real city that because of the great passion for selfeducation in america. The great belief that if there arent schools we should be reading and get not a society and talking to each other and ourselves learn so we dont become barbarian. When lincoln laned in salem. He landed in an intellectual town. A town that was theological liberal with many smart people who talked see the tholing all the time. Its american selftaught selfeducation theme that is so huge. Jefferson teaches himself ten languages. One of them arabic inspect is just the theme we have in the history. In to his thinking. Many the American Revolution was conducted in a high religious surge in the american colony after the war, the churches had been idescrod. Pastors were skilled. Bibles burned. As a result of that and the enlightenment influence of philosophically you have a turning against christianity. Thomas paine war hero for writing, as he did, and citing, you know, with common sense much of the war. He writes a book age of reason. Lincoln loves it. Theres a french scholar who write about the nation and how silly religion is and cast out. Lincoln loves it. Because he had a crass czar sarcastic loves burns and could codo the ideal scottish broking. He also the great selfeducation gift he had that we hear about early age walking five miles a day to borrow a book. It was wonderful in term of facing him intelligent intent julie. He essentially started drinking the water which were liberal. The issue here is that lincoln is i think so angry at religion in general. That he not only ash absorbs this. He goes further. His friends member all of his their lives that lincoln hated religion. That lincoln spoke of a price used the crass word for that. Many had times when he was using making a conversation he wouldnt use the name jesus. He would say the bastard. And say that over and over. People would wince. If even they were moving away from traditional faith. They certainly werent trying to, you know, be that crass about it. That sounds lime thomas paine. Hes angry and passionate and calling price name and talking about the bible being mythologies and so on. And some of his friends who knew that he was had some political aspirations knew this was dangerous. These are two of the most fascinating issues. Ill move on a little bit more rapidly with a story of the faith. I hope we never lose mment rethat lose the memory that lincoln fought horrible depression. Friends said he was saddest man he ever said. One said he dripped melon coolly while he walked. His mother had been quote, possessed of a particular spirit of sadness. There are books on this. We wouldnt had the lincoln we had if hasnt battled depression. Its not just a temporary sad in his life. It was not a small thing. He suffered disabilitying depression. His friends had to go on suicide watch many time. Part of it was almost certainly inherited. Almost somehow in the genes. He suffered horrible death in his life. He said to a friend once he was haunted by the thought of water falling on graves. That he had lost his mother. He lost his sister, he lost an aunt and uncle. When his mother died at the age of 9 he helped his father make the coffin and bury her. He was a hands on experience. The first woman he ever loved died within a short time and died horribly as his mother did of milk sickness. Death probably genetic predispositions. He was dress dpressive. His friends would write and say it was the time he went crazy. That was the time we had to take the raisers from the room. It was a serious issue. It was not temporary sadness. The thing that ask not know when i began writing the book, that i have never really heard discussed i found it later hidden in some historian writing or mentioned lightly. It may have been at the heart of lincolns depression and also much his rejection of god. It is that lincoln was ab absolutely tortured by the fact that his mother was ill legitimate. He, again, used that b word bastard he uses of jesus for his own mother. Saints hard for us to understand if. If i was born without knowing my parents you wouldnt think of less me in our generation. This a time when first sons are considered to be morally superior to second sons. Its a different culture. Lincoln believes that somehow he was cursed because his mother was ill legitimate. In fact even the good thing about him he thought were somehow stolen. Apparently a virginia aristocrat had raped his grandmother and lincoln spoke of his good equipment quality of having symptommen as he was the thief. Its hard understand. This is absolutely on the documents. Then on talk about the rest of his family not being bright as having what he would have been the recipient intellectual gift. Its an odd way of thinking. All of his friends, especially the closest sobers said he thought i was cursed. And the ill legitimacy on his part and his mothers was a mark that god rejected him. Lincoln spoke and wrote and his friends reported he believed himself cursed by god and often compared himself to joe. In fact, one of my favorite quotes from him first of all. Let me quote briefly. Its lincoln speaking if a conversation well recorded. My mother was a bastard daughter of a noblemen. My mothers mother was poor and credulous and shamefully taken advantage of by a man. My mother inherited his qualities and i hearse. Hers. Thats almost laughable in term of our modern understanding. The man was tortured by it. His friend wrote one of my favorite yoat about the subject. He said poor, patience, suffering, prospering lincoln. Did not god roll him through the turns. Take all of this and youll perceive lincolns work on fill dellty. The reason hes angry at god and wrote the book is that out of a great last jobe like of despair. This is the famous this is clin lincolns best friend saying god put him through. Hes buying lincolns pest. I dont mean to be cutting. You need to understand that lincolns depression, lincolns ankle anger toward god have some of it their roots some of the poor of this from lincoln believing hes cursed. Its something we hardly understand or perceive today. Things do eventually change. Lincoln spends about a decade in salem. Feeding on the liberalism. Hes battling depression. Hes continuing to read deeply. He moves to springfield and becomes part of the legislature. And things begin to change there because far number of reasons. First of all, he begins to encounter christians who are articulate, who upper class or people he admires. When he spoke publicly. But during that time he is becoming softer to the church with something that had to have bid in those days and he has a few friends but he is very cautious and distant from of faith. But if 1850s he is coming back from congress his fatherinlaw has died they ask clinton to straighten out so they ask robert todd home in lexington. Lincoln takes weeks to work out the details of the contested this state and finally with us daughter said her screaming at each other he reads the box and the joys that time with 82 volume market has the title i assure a new book titled this way today but it is about to the fourth sentence title called christians defense. It is written by the presbyterian minister in springfield. To pull it down and read it for the first of is beginning to read eight deeply intellectual defense he is intrigued but the time of the case goes away then goes to springfield and is so intrigued by the book that he asks a friend that is the pastor of the First Presbyterian and he asked for a copy of the two volumes but the thing that makes it especially in the impact is the intellectual side with a lawyers clarity case for christianity but what impresses it home causing him to go through a change is shortly after his son dies. Young eddie dies horribly of consumption and they call it that because it is as if you are being consumed at about the details but he suffers to munson dies. Lincoln already had too much death in his life already battles depression and it is haunted by the thought of rain falling on graves. He is devastated. It did then state reaches out to everett smith. What people want at this moment is the conversion moment. The be because i acquistion he moves toward christianity things have changed there is some kind of turning. Reverend smith says in his later writings that he becomes a christian believer at that point i dont think this story could draw that conclusion but there is definitely entered a and lincoln begins to support church is locally with money. A larger number of ministers he loads the baptist minister his buggy and horses for a year and a half and occasionally attends church with mary todd who has now switched to reverend Smith Presbyterian Church and ive heard reference referred to it but he was more the billy graham type loud and hard hitting and sometimes abraham attended but nothing has something has changed. Then intel he enters the white house ikea at with a scholars path i cannot say he is a man that is fully turned to christianity but now no question he is a believer in god. Now no question he is a believer in providence he has turned and speeches are filled with scripture he meets regularly with ministers and funds Christian Ministries he speaks of the christian gospel as an influence. Has tearfully embraced christianity . Is. [applause] steps shy . In favor from the heart of the person of christ that we dont have a proclamation . Those are the questions that hang in the year but 1860 when he runs for president this is the man who does believe that a god who it is spoken often of god work throughout history and has had a half turning at that point. Let me use the book dint of Abraham Lincolns to magnificent speech is the first and second inaugural to show you the change that happens while he is an office. This is the next phase of the fee is based attorney in springfield with a loosely christian statesman lawyer and now you have a president but there is a big change that happens while lincoln is in the white house and this is so important. I hope you will read the magnificent first and second inaugural addresses the language is unbelievable the languages beautiful it is hard to believe the man wrote it himself but shakespeare and the bible with amazing intelligence perhaps we can see it more clearly but in the first inaugural the country is coming apart coming coming to civil war this is his last appeal on a National Stage to the south. It is obvious from his speech that is twice as long, three times as long as the second inaugural three times more words he is reasoning and arguing in making the lawyers case for the south but he believes he mystery is did he minions. He believes it is human decisions if he even says the the last couple of paragraphs, in your hands my dissatisfied fellow countryman and did not in my is a momentous issue of civil war. Remember that when i come to the second inaugural but he believes these issues are humanly decided. Although he also affirms a belief in an god and of course, you have to read the last line domestic chords of memory this is american poetry. The theology undergirding is that we can change this if we want to. We can make decisions to change this. But changes over the next four years is that lincoln is living through e. Benson what he comes to conclude is me and is not in charge of that comes out of lincolns completes frustration. If you look at the difference between the confederacy and the union with the talks weapons or Railroad Tracks or bullets, then, anything you want to talk about, the union has far and away has superior power. And lincoln cannot buy a victory. It puts one of the finest commanders in charge of his army mclellan says if he will not use the army i would like to borrow it. He is so frustrated he cannot stand himself. A generals achieve a certain measure of victory all they have to do is cross the river and they stop and have coffee at the sunset and abraham will write letters you dont understand you have died. Shes absolutely not in control and it drives him to haunt the white house at night and causes him to walk around to the tortured state. About two years into the war you can tell he is rustling theologically. He believes in the god his work of the earth is still wrestling with his belief and rustling wanted pieces of paper this has kept by his secretary many were lost but the meditation of the divine will. Is about his state of mind. The will of god. In great contest each party claims to act in accordance with the will of god. May be one is wrong god cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. It is quite possible that gods purpose is Something Different from the purpose of either party. That gods purpose in this war is Something Different from north or south. But yet they human instrumentality working as they do is the best adaptation for this purpose. Lionels ready to say this is probably true. I am almost ready to say it is probably true that god wills the contest that it shall not india by his mere quiet power on the minds of the now contestants he could have saved or destroyed at the union without a contest. Yet it began and having begun he to give the final victory to either side any data yet it continues. He is saying now by the stand that god is all powerful. Of you wanted to destroy the union he could have if you wanted to give the confederacy victory he could have. The key is not doing any of it. He has Something Else he is after. When he concludes within weeks is that god is enraged about slavery and as preachers would say god has a controversy with this nation god is angry about slavery in the guide has visited this war upon the nation as judgment. One of the ways to make sense of the fact that and are be five times the size of its enemy cannot get a victory the best weapons dont to dominate the best reggies to win. With a very short period of time lincoln issues see emancipation proclamation and it turns out he goes out into a Cabinet Meeting and says i am considering the emancipation order of some sort i have now decided to do it because i made a solemn vow before god his exact quote from the notes taken from it added general be was driven back from pennsylvania i would crown the freedom to the slaves to the beginning of the effort if god gave us victory of the crown that effort with the declaration of freedom to the slaves they say we did not hear you correctly he said you did hear me i made a covenant with god again he has not been the religious figure theyll look at each other but all the personal notes concern this on dash confirm this independently. To see dont think i am making up the spiritual staff. Says you have what you have is issued out of a belief that the war was visited upon the nation by god. Let me read a few sentences from the second inaugural because you see the journey now. Here is the famous line in the second inaugural very short he has given up. If we shall suppose american slavery is one of those offenses in the providence of god that have been continued through his appointed time now willis to remove with north and south the terrible war as to those whom the offense came from the the whole country is under judgment, with those attributes of the believers of the living god always ascribed to is this the god we talk about in the bible . And the second inaugural lincoln says this is judgment from god. Afterwards the man asked him what he thought of his own speech he said it will not do well because men are not flattered by being shown there is a difference a purpose between the almighty and them. See what he intended my words not his have ceased to become president now he seeks to become profit in the sense that a profit speak scots words the motions and attitude to people at a given time. Lincoln clearly saw himself as a role to speak in gods ways to the nation. First inaugural this is in your hands but the second inaugural, but this is judgment and nobody is in control. You go from lincoln hanging on tv being himself but hating his father and the revivalist culture of which she is crass and offensive moving into a tolerant phase but clearly there is some absorption of a belief in god and finally by the time you get to the presidency someone who believes in some biblical truth believes it in heaven and hell of the christian ethics and is still not clear who jesus is also close to a church from the moment he arrives now we call it evangelical he is not radically antijesus as he once was but the clear statement we have by the time his presidency was over is the second inaugural. Guide it will heal the nation but nobody was in control of this. Let me speak gods will to the nation. The conclusion of the matter is people want me to nail it down. Why is he religiously . He is ever on the religious journey and that is interrupted. If i have on my christian had a theme he arrived at peace with christianity in a broad sense but is dollars and i cannot prove what i just said because we just dont know anybody that says he is like polygram overdoes it but Abraham Lincoln and it was said a fiestas own speeches chisel the monuments does not say that. I brought you all this way to say i dont know but the journey is the thing. But it has been great being with you if the we have a few questions so i will yield to those at this time. It sounds like the marriage with the wife was very difficult have you seen any evidence he approached it in a biblical or a new testament way that the definition of marriage or how you treat your spouse . Also puc whether that difficult marriage drove him closer to god or a way . That is a great question. Did you see the movie . That is one of the movies you have to see or you cannot move on in life. [laughter] you will see one of the earliest scenes sally field is very tied with an awesome portrayal. If they ever have the knockdown drag out they felt that it is raging and furious. It is not the marriage what your friends want it to be. Did make peace and they love each other they scream and fight to allot one of the most beautiful statements of the whole fight is lincoln completing she is so crazed and her grief there is no room for even in anybody elses feelings even the children are squeezed out. He did quote scripture to her to come for her. Did he genuinely believe them . I think he did not at the beginning but in the end he did. I think he was thinking maybe this would work because she is screaming the house in the white house with her grief later he was trying to do, for them with their faith but we dont know enough about their private life for their ministry to know if lincoln was doing anything more distinct lead biblical to his marriage problems. Remember war is happening. They are besieged. Just like in west wing the character says this is not more important than you but it is right now. Hundreds of thousands of people are dying and it is on his hands so he turns away and she hates him for it in that temporary way but we dont know anything more than that. For this tragic and horrible she is eventually driven mentally unhinged by all of this either on sun has circumvented and then there are lawsuits to get her out. In what context did mary todd discuss lincolns the last words to her . This is the information talking to the baptist minister in springfield a man by the name of noyes the same mr. Lincoln had flown to the of buggy to for a year and a half in 1982. The document is on file. By the way if you are really interested in Abraham Lincoln you will not believe the Springfield Library not just a collection of books but it is like disneyland collided with the Richard Richard berg library with the intern with is unbelievable. You walk through with the casket area is an amazing it is unbelievable. But some of the best the lincoln scholars i ran all my riding in research in advance and they said the conclusions that i had drawn in the book they read not complimenting me but we do think that this is confirmed. The document is confirmed as historical but not everything it can be be sure what had to as it is her remembering but we rely on it so much for everything else. The carriage ride, the conversation but then religion will then that can be true. I am not trying to pick a fight but consider the whole thing is it is a interview 8082 is the short answer. That most of what you know, except for what he wrote or said or what people wrote during his presidency presidency, sometimes three decades later. But it is substantiated source that most scholars use. Put their suspect of the religious part of people think there is a religious and reworking of lincoln and there could be some evidence in some cases but we also have evidence that we have cited not try to make the case but from his actual lifetime it has been confirmed. It will never be fully solved a and only those that insist on absolute conclusion or clarity are wrong. Of you insist on a position other than he was on the constant journey and that it did not attack the country that is the conclusion that very few theological lives have impacted but yet he may be the least certain and that is all that we go. It has been great to be with you. Please go to springfield. It is wonderful. God bless. [applause] [inaudible conversations]