Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Eternal Nazi 2

Tonight. As steve said, bob has reduced there for about 30 minutes in the back Something Like to ask him to sign the book, im sure he will be happy to do so. Thank you again. [inaudible conversations] visit the booktv. Org to watch any of the programs you see your online. Type the author or book title in the search bar on the upper left side of the page and click search. You can share anything you see on booktv. Org easily by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and selecting format. Booktv streams live online for 40 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. Booktv. Org. Journalists turn one and Souad Mekhennet recount the men and are not see doctor albertine accused of violent acts against the imprisoned while at the mauthausen concentration camp in 1941. The authors report that he escaped allied arrest following world war ii and reinvented his life in egypt. This is about one hour 15 minutes. Maybe i should there we go. Thank you so much. Welcome everybody. My name is guy brass and i host a show on npr. I was in his reporter, correspondent and host which ill explain why that is while the in a moment. It is my absolute pleasure to be here with these two incredible journalists. Tran one is an awardwinning correspondent from the New York Times. He was Berlin Bureau chief from 20072013. I have long admired his work from afar. This is the first time ive make in in person, but as somebody once covered germany, its a great pleasure to read somebody covered germany with intelligence and grace and humor and real depth and sensitivity over six years in the country. Souad mekhennet is somebody i know very, very well. We met in hamburg shortly after september 11 attack when she was working, she was an Investigative Reporter working with peter fenn from the Washington Post. She was in this room here today and we forged a very close friendship right then and there and have known each other ever since. Souad has won every award under the sun. She has been threatened and jailed and shot at in every country you could possibly imagine. And thankfully shes spending more time in francogerman in here in the u. S. , keeping away from those places. So in 2009, souad and nicholas part of a project that was so extraordinary, it really shook the world holocaust scholarship, justice seekers who have been following the ministry, ministries case of the man, aribert heim. He was a doctor who carried some of the most cruel and inhumane experiments on human beings in modernism places a really etched in, names that we all know. He was known as doctor death. After the war he escaped prosecution. He lived as a gynecologist for a few years in germany, but in 1962, war crimes investigators started to catch up with him. And as they begin to close in, he disappeared without a trace. That is the jumping off point for this incredible book, souad and nicholas, welcome. And again, its such a pleasure to be able to talk to but the story. First of all give us some background as to who he was. Who was aribert heim . Aribert heim was born in austria in a small austrian Frontier Town that, after world war i, was actually divided between yugoslavia and austria, have the talent and the south, half down on the north which is significant because that led to a strong surge of right wing feelings in the town. His brother joined the ss, after medical school, aribert heim also joined the ss. So you as a committed true blue, true believing nazi from the early days. His brother, in the family lore and in some letters that have cropped up, it was clear his brother was as hardcore a nazi as an austrian could be. He took part in a 1934 push that failed to turn austria into knots and he joined the austin region in germany. In the family stories, aribert heim is lemoore cautious, kind of the one who says to look before you leap. But its possible after his brothers death at the beginning of world war ii with the invasion of crete that his views also hardened and let him do what he would later do at mauthausen. He received his medical degree in austria at the age of 25. This was going to be his profession, hes going to be a doctor. Was there any sense at the time he was a committed ideologue . As nicholas said, at the beginning who is actually more committed towards becoming a doctor and actually also at one stage told his brother that he should not actually follow hitlers ideology. He told them hitler is not going to give you your degree. So finish your degree first and then you can look out for political activism. But something changed when his brother was killed, and we know from letters and also from his brother was killed in battle . Actually he was tortured. One of his friends later on went to heims mother explain how is basically tortured to death. This is somehow triggered something and let something behind in aribert became much more committed as well to the nazi ideology. So how did this young man go from a 25 euros graduate of medical school to the ss . How does that process begin . And then what happens at that point . According to records he was already a member of the Storm Troopers as we call them, before he joined the ss. The famous anatomist edward who signed his obama and do a sort of one of the main figures his diploma, medical school those days would give lectures wearing a brown Storm Trooper uniform. So to give you a sense of sort of what the times wer were liken vienna in the late 30s, it was really a place where students dressed as nazis good beat and torment jewish students in the hallways. It was a very logical progression and to join the ss. So what happens then . Where is his first posting . What is his first assignment . Where does he go . He started first as a troop doctor. He was actually supposed to take care of inmates. His job was to be a doctor for all in the field . In the field, but then eventually some of these doctors also ended up treating inmates, and thats the point that was actually the most interesting one this time in mauthausen in the concentration camp where he been accused of like killing inmates by injecting gasoline into the hearts and committing other criminal acts. So thats basically where you could see that he used his profession that action was supposed to save lives and turn it into something, as the accusations say, into telling people. Mauthausen of course is where most of the testimony, we will get to some of that and how we know about what happened there, but it was before that time that he was at mauthausen, they cant write outside of berlin . Correct. Do we know what happened there, what he did, what his role was . Very little is known about what he did there. There was one inmate who was also at mauthausen who said that he believed he had committed murders at other concentration just as well, and that he had threatened him and said we will do it like we did and i running brook, if you dont keep your mouth shut. So thats as much as is really known. He was in these camps very early in the war, and so youre asking witnesses to survive in for six years and a nazi concentration camp in order to survive and other tales, which unfortunately was not very likely. Spent do we know roughly when he transferred to mauthausen . Yes. He arrived in i believe late september 1941. To justice would set set the context, and im sure most people in the old about that camp. That was a concentration camp come into towards the camp, primarily a labor camp with the huge quarry. They did have a crematorium there. Right on the banks of the danube. Its stunning setting. Im sure you probably visited mauthausen and its quite contrast to go there and see the river and the river valley below. He gets there in 1942 and he becomes the primary doctor, or he becomes one of many doctors . Do we know . He became according to witnesses one of many doctors. Actually in one of the pages that we later on found in his briefcase, im sure we will get to that, he actually wrote in one of his papers he spent six weeks only, but those were his words, during these six weeks he, according to witnesses and testimony, committed these crimes that we talk about. So lets talk about some of those crimes in more detail. I mean, they are quite gruesome and we should warn folks that this is not easy to hear. Healthy humans would come in. He was known to do what . As souad said, there are two things he is associated with. One is the practice of injecting gasoline or chemicals directly into peoples hearts using large needles. That was actually frighteningly common in concentration camps before the advent of the mechanized killing that we associate with the holocaust, with places like auschwitzbirkenau. That was an attempt to experiment with fast ways of killing people . Theres testament that he and the camp pharmacist would have a stopwatch and see how long it took for people to die after injection which they tried a different solutions, other things. He was known to inspect the teeth of prisoners . Jan. He famously talks about the perfect bite, you know, of the teeth. And he was known to have several witnesses said that he had taken those goals of victims the skulls of victims. We found he had done sort of a minor had looked into becoming an oral surgeon as one of his possible future career paths. You are seeing these little sort of certificates of dental studies and realizing, you know, is this why, is this where this obsession comes from . The war in his, he returns home, he moves the badenbaden, is that right speakers well, he was first in custody. He was actually a prisoner of war for some time, but back then the accusations werent known. There were so many prisoners to process. Absolutely. So what happened was then eventually after he got released, he decided to leave home down and went to badenbaden, and actually met this woman who came from a rich family. Actually went to heidelberg first. He met her, they got married and he settled eventually as a gynecologist, practiced there, and they had two sons. Life seemed fine. He actually thought life was good and all was over. Immediate after the war you write about the tens of thousands, the hundreds, millions really of prisoners who were just released en masse but only with a hardened ss officers were question. But even then youre talking about tens of thousands of people. And so inevitably many of them were released because there was no eye the people who what they did were dead, or the testimony didnt catch up with that person you. Thats what happened in this case. I mean, there was an effort to sort of in cars with everyone and then there was this realization, you can imagine if youre the general in charge of germany after the war, they couldnt run the trains, they couldnt pick the crops. If they didnt start releasing people they would have this humanitarian catastrophe with millions of people starving to death. So they just started reading these broad categories. Everyone who wasnt in the ss can go. People like Joseph Manilow was also in custody during that time period there goes and these enough time to escape. So heim goes to the village, this town and sets up the practice eventually as a gynecologist. What we know about that period of time. Does he ever express in anxiety . Is he careful about who he talks to, or is he essentially living openly as the same person . He was not really thinking about any kind of danger because he thought everything was a. He had no idea that there were these customers come from austria. Testimonies. He lived in a big nice house but he was married to a very rich woman, and they had two sons and they also enjoyed social life. So one of the pictures that you saw that was used for hunting and basically showed him in a tuxedo and this was taken while he was going on with his life to the casino basically. He had no idea about the testimony until 1962, and there was a phone call and somebody called him and basically asked, are you dr. Aribert heim and did you serve time at mauthausen . And the attitude basically that the nazi hunters were after him. This was testimony that was taken primarily from one man, joseph cole speak with joseph goal was the first. Early 1936 he began to tell he was an inmate . An inmate of mauthausen who told war crimes investigators about what aribert heim had done. But it was really another man named karl who made it his mission, you could say, to get aribert heim brought to justice. He wrote letters and harassed the prosecutors he was also an inmate . Yes. He witnessed many of these crimes of . There were a core group of inmates who were forced to work in the infirmary or the surgical ward, if you will, who, together, testified to what happened there, to what had been done there. There were several of them. So he gives his testimony. Around what time frame . I mean, did he give this right after the war or did he give it shortly before heim was contacted by war crimes investigators . Really starting an ugly 1947 already. So joseph kohl begins talking about it, 90 for six just a few months after the war and kofman makes it his mission while heims been exonerated and set free actually. So what expense the gap between the time when the testimony is taken and a time when investigators finally made a phone call in 1962 . It took some time for them to figure where he was basically because you should not forget this was days of no internet, witnesses actually gave their testimony in austria. He was then already in germany at the time. So took some time to really find them. And that is why it took so long for them to figure out that heim basically settled in boston baden. When nick mentioned was very aggressive also by trying to find heim to his ice hockey club. He was a champion ice occupant. He played on National Teams spent exactly. This former inmate really was trying his level best to find him is that me . But it usually took a lot of time to figure out who this person was. I think if i could add one thing. I think theres also an important geopolitical side to this as well, which was that you had allies, United States and soviet union, who are fighting together against nazi germany, but very quickly the allies became the adversaries and thats the cold war took shape, germany went from being the villain to being a highly courted, potential ally. In fact, both sides wanted germany so much a split the country in half and each got one. And so you can simultaneously see the soviets and the americans seize their war prosecutions to pacify the german public. Lets talk about that day when he gets the call. What happens at that point . Does heim panic . Desi sort of sit on it for a couple of days . What do we know about that period of time in 19 seated you when war crimes investigators said, are you aribert heim, and did you serve at mauthausen . Well, he understood they were after him and then what happened was he contacted actually a law firm in frankfort that was famous for taking on the cases of former nazi war criminals. They took part in the nuremberg processes, and he went to them and basically passed, i received a phone call from this and this institution, so what is this about . One of the lawyers basically said, so it means they are after you and you have to get prepared. There are two choices. Either stay here and you face the charges, but the way it works or it looks like its your not really succeed in proving you are not guilty, or you have to look for another alternative. At that time also and then we should mention is heims motherinlaw was a very strong character and her premier thing was basic to secure and safe family from any harm. So what we know talking to his wife and other witnesses, the motherinlaw basically pushed him and said he should actually leave the country and hide somewhere. How forthcoming was he with his family about what he did . He just said look, theyre after me, this is an injustice, or did they really have a sense of what he did . So from, when we spoke to his wife in the family, they said he had, his wife said she knew he was in the ss but she had no idea about any kind of accusations. And she also pointed out that, for example, her family used to have a role school and the youth of jewish girls and they do want an interview with these kinds of actions. He always claimed that he was innocent. So she encourages him to leave, and he leaves. Do we know roughly how long after he consulted with those lawyers in frankfort . Well, it was several months. Theyre sort of the quiet summer between when he first asked about this and when he speaks to the lower and then when he finally flees, its after the summer vacation. And so its clear that he made significant preparations during that time. He owned an Apartment Building and he was worrying about fixing the border. He secured loans. You can see him laying the groundwork. He was a very methodical person and knew that he was, at that point i think already that he was going to run. So where did he go . First, he went to his sisters house, which is significant because his sister would play a role for much of his time in hiding. And then he took his brotherinlaws sports car and high tailed it across europe, driving from germany to spain. And then from spain, its not entirely clear how we got there but he appears to have flown to tangier and rocco which was the first place that he went into hiding for a longer period. He was there for about he was there for even less than a year. One major risk isolation that he made was he appeared to have settled in the jewish quarter of tangier, did not realize that as souad can elaborate, that morocco had a very Good Relationship with the jews, still have the Jewish Population of today, and he quickly realized that he probably should find someplace a little safer. We know he actually told some people that he didnt feel secure in morocco because they figured out he was too nice to the jews and he was afraid the and nazi hunters would come after him and find him there. He makes his way to egypt or why egypt . Why did he pick egypt and why did he think he would be safe there . Because actually its known that egypt also welcomes a lot of former nazis and should help to build up the rocket system there. They even used some of the former propaganda, nazi propaganda or people to help them set up their propaganda machinery. But what is so interesting about heim, from what we know and all the witnesses accounts, he did not really makes up with the germans. He tried to stay away from them as much as he could, and was actually afraid by mixing up with them, you know, they would find him. His only problem was, i mean, he was actually more or less as tall as nick. For somebody looking for being as tall absolutely. Thats what he also was selling for places where he was sure that there wouldnt be many german people or europeans. He also sort of a ride to the party a little too late, if you will. There have been many german scientist theyre building a Something Like<\/a> to ask him to sign the book, im sure he will be happy to do so. Thank you again. [inaudible conversations] visit the booktv. Org to watch any of the programs you see your online. Type the author or book title in the search bar on the upper left side of the page and click search. You can share anything you see on booktv. Org easily by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and selecting format. Booktv streams live online for 40 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. Booktv. Org. Journalists turn one and Souad Mekhennet<\/a> recount the men and are not see doctor albertine accused of violent acts against the imprisoned while at the mauthausen concentration camp in 1941. The authors report that he escaped allied arrest following world war ii and reinvented his life in egypt. This is about one hour 15 minutes. Maybe i should there we go. Thank you so much. Welcome everybody. My name is guy brass and i host a show on npr. I was in his reporter, correspondent and host which ill explain why that is while the in a moment. It is my absolute pleasure to be here with these two incredible journalists. Tran one is an awardwinning correspondent from the New York Times<\/a>. He was Berlin Bureau<\/a> chief from 20072013. I have long admired his work from afar. This is the first time ive make in in person, but as somebody once covered germany, its a great pleasure to read somebody covered germany with intelligence and grace and humor and real depth and sensitivity over six years in the country. Souad mekhennet is somebody i know very, very well. We met in hamburg shortly after september 11 attack when she was working, she was an Investigative Reporter<\/a> working with peter fenn from the Washington Post<\/a>. She was in this room here today and we forged a very close friendship right then and there and have known each other ever since. Souad has won every award under the sun. She has been threatened and jailed and shot at in every country you could possibly imagine. And thankfully shes spending more time in francogerman in here in the u. S. , keeping away from those places. So in 2009, souad and nicholas part of a project that was so extraordinary, it really shook the world holocaust scholarship, justice seekers who have been following the ministry, ministries case of the man, aribert heim. He was a doctor who carried some of the most cruel and inhumane experiments on human beings in modernism places a really etched in, names that we all know. He was known as doctor death. After the war he escaped prosecution. He lived as a gynecologist for a few years in germany, but in 1962, war crimes investigators started to catch up with him. And as they begin to close in, he disappeared without a trace. That is the jumping off point for this incredible book, souad and nicholas, welcome. And again, its such a pleasure to be able to talk to but the story. First of all give us some background as to who he was. Who was aribert heim . Aribert heim was born in austria in a small austrian Frontier Town<\/a> that, after world war i, was actually divided between yugoslavia and austria, have the talent and the south, half down on the north which is significant because that led to a strong surge of right wing feelings in the town. His brother joined the ss, after medical school, aribert heim also joined the ss. So you as a committed true blue, true believing nazi from the early days. His brother, in the family lore and in some letters that have cropped up, it was clear his brother was as hardcore a nazi as an austrian could be. He took part in a 1934 push that failed to turn austria into knots and he joined the austin region in germany. In the family stories, aribert heim is lemoore cautious, kind of the one who says to look before you leap. But its possible after his brothers death at the beginning of world war ii with the invasion of crete that his views also hardened and let him do what he would later do at mauthausen. He received his medical degree in austria at the age of 25. This was going to be his profession, hes going to be a doctor. Was there any sense at the time he was a committed ideologue . As nicholas said, at the beginning who is actually more committed towards becoming a doctor and actually also at one stage told his brother that he should not actually follow hitlers ideology. He told them hitler is not going to give you your degree. So finish your degree first and then you can look out for political activism. But something changed when his brother was killed, and we know from letters and also from his brother was killed in battle . Actually he was tortured. One of his friends later on went to heims mother explain how is basically tortured to death. This is somehow triggered something and let something behind in aribert became much more committed as well to the nazi ideology. So how did this young man go from a 25 euros graduate of medical school to the ss . How does that process begin . And then what happens at that point . According to records he was already a member of the Storm Trooper<\/a>s as we call them, before he joined the ss. The famous anatomist edward who signed his obama and do a sort of one of the main figures his diploma, medical school those days would give lectures wearing a brown Storm Trooper<\/a> uniform. So to give you a sense of sort of what the times wer were liken vienna in the late 30s, it was really a place where students dressed as nazis good beat and torment jewish students in the hallways. It was a very logical progression and to join the ss. So what happens then . Where is his first posting . What is his first assignment . Where does he go . He started first as a troop doctor. He was actually supposed to take care of inmates. His job was to be a doctor for all in the field . In the field, but then eventually some of these doctors also ended up treating inmates, and thats the point that was actually the most interesting one this time in mauthausen in the concentration camp where he been accused of like killing inmates by injecting gasoline into the hearts and committing other criminal acts. So thats basically where you could see that he used his profession that action was supposed to save lives and turn it into something, as the accusations say, into telling people. Mauthausen of course is where most of the testimony, we will get to some of that and how we know about what happened there, but it was before that time that he was at mauthausen, they cant write outside of berlin . Correct. Do we know what happened there, what he did, what his role was . Very little is known about what he did there. There was one inmate who was also at mauthausen who said that he believed he had committed murders at other concentration just as well, and that he had threatened him and said we will do it like we did and i running brook, if you dont keep your mouth shut. So thats as much as is really known. He was in these camps very early in the war, and so youre asking witnesses to survive in for six years and a nazi concentration camp in order to survive and other tales, which unfortunately was not very likely. Spent do we know roughly when he transferred to mauthausen . Yes. He arrived in i believe late september 1941. To justice would set set the context, and im sure most people in the old about that camp. That was a concentration camp come into towards the camp, primarily a labor camp with the huge quarry. They did have a crematorium there. Right on the banks of the danube. Its stunning setting. Im sure you probably visited mauthausen and its quite contrast to go there and see the river and the river valley below. He gets there in 1942 and he becomes the primary doctor, or he becomes one of many doctors . Do we know . He became according to witnesses one of many doctors. Actually in one of the pages that we later on found in his briefcase, im sure we will get to that, he actually wrote in one of his papers he spent six weeks only, but those were his words, during these six weeks he, according to witnesses and testimony, committed these crimes that we talk about. So lets talk about some of those crimes in more detail. I mean, they are quite gruesome and we should warn folks that this is not easy to hear. Healthy humans would come in. He was known to do what . As souad said, there are two things he is associated with. One is the practice of injecting gasoline or chemicals directly into peoples hearts using large needles. That was actually frighteningly common in concentration camps before the advent of the mechanized killing that we associate with the holocaust, with places like auschwitzbirkenau. That was an attempt to experiment with fast ways of killing people . Theres testament that he and the camp pharmacist would have a stopwatch and see how long it took for people to die after injection which they tried a different solutions, other things. He was known to inspect the teeth of prisoners . Jan. He famously talks about the perfect bite, you know, of the teeth. And he was known to have several witnesses said that he had taken those goals of victims the skulls of victims. We found he had done sort of a minor had looked into becoming an oral surgeon as one of his possible future career paths. You are seeing these little sort of certificates of dental studies and realizing, you know, is this why, is this where this obsession comes from . The war in his, he returns home, he moves the badenbaden, is that right speakers well, he was first in custody. He was actually a prisoner of war for some time, but back then the accusations werent known. There were so many prisoners to process. Absolutely. So what happened was then eventually after he got released, he decided to leave home down and went to badenbaden, and actually met this woman who came from a rich family. Actually went to heidelberg first. He met her, they got married and he settled eventually as a gynecologist, practiced there, and they had two sons. Life seemed fine. He actually thought life was good and all was over. Immediate after the war you write about the tens of thousands, the hundreds, millions really of prisoners who were just released en masse but only with a hardened ss officers were question. But even then youre talking about tens of thousands of people. And so inevitably many of them were released because there was no eye the people who what they did were dead, or the testimony didnt catch up with that person you. Thats what happened in this case. I mean, there was an effort to sort of in cars with everyone and then there was this realization, you can imagine if youre the general in charge of germany after the war, they couldnt run the trains, they couldnt pick the crops. If they didnt start releasing people they would have this humanitarian catastrophe with millions of people starving to death. So they just started reading these broad categories. Everyone who wasnt in the ss can go. People like Joseph Manilow<\/a> was also in custody during that time period there goes and these enough time to escape. So heim goes to the village, this town and sets up the practice eventually as a gynecologist. What we know about that period of time. Does he ever express in anxiety . Is he careful about who he talks to, or is he essentially living openly as the same person . He was not really thinking about any kind of danger because he thought everything was a. He had no idea that there were these customers come from austria. Testimonies. He lived in a big nice house but he was married to a very rich woman, and they had two sons and they also enjoyed social life. So one of the pictures that you saw that was used for hunting and basically showed him in a tuxedo and this was taken while he was going on with his life to the casino basically. He had no idea about the testimony until 1962, and there was a phone call and somebody called him and basically asked, are you dr. Aribert heim and did you serve time at mauthausen . And the attitude basically that the nazi hunters were after him. This was testimony that was taken primarily from one man, joseph cole speak with joseph goal was the first. Early 1936 he began to tell he was an inmate . An inmate of mauthausen who told war crimes investigators about what aribert heim had done. But it was really another man named karl who made it his mission, you could say, to get aribert heim brought to justice. He wrote letters and harassed the prosecutors he was also an inmate . Yes. He witnessed many of these crimes of . There were a core group of inmates who were forced to work in the infirmary or the surgical ward, if you will, who, together, testified to what happened there, to what had been done there. There were several of them. So he gives his testimony. Around what time frame . I mean, did he give this right after the war or did he give it shortly before heim was contacted by war crimes investigators . Really starting an ugly 1947 already. So joseph kohl begins talking about it, 90 for six just a few months after the war and kofman makes it his mission while heims been exonerated and set free actually. So what expense the gap between the time when the testimony is taken and a time when investigators finally made a phone call in 1962 . It took some time for them to figure where he was basically because you should not forget this was days of no internet, witnesses actually gave their testimony in austria. He was then already in germany at the time. So took some time to really find them. And that is why it took so long for them to figure out that heim basically settled in boston baden. When nick mentioned was very aggressive also by trying to find heim to his ice hockey club. He was a champion ice occupant. He played on National Teams<\/a> spent exactly. This former inmate really was trying his level best to find him is that me . But it usually took a lot of time to figure out who this person was. I think if i could add one thing. I think theres also an important geopolitical side to this as well, which was that you had allies, United States<\/a> and soviet union, who are fighting together against nazi germany, but very quickly the allies became the adversaries and thats the cold war took shape, germany went from being the villain to being a highly courted, potential ally. In fact, both sides wanted germany so much a split the country in half and each got one. And so you can simultaneously see the soviets and the americans seize their war prosecutions to pacify the german public. Lets talk about that day when he gets the call. What happens at that point . Does heim panic . Desi sort of sit on it for a couple of days . What do we know about that period of time in 19 seated you when war crimes investigators said, are you aribert heim, and did you serve at mauthausen . Well, he understood they were after him and then what happened was he contacted actually a law firm in frankfort that was famous for taking on the cases of former nazi war criminals. They took part in the nuremberg processes, and he went to them and basically passed, i received a phone call from this and this institution, so what is this about . One of the lawyers basically said, so it means they are after you and you have to get prepared. There are two choices. Either stay here and you face the charges, but the way it works or it looks like its your not really succeed in proving you are not guilty, or you have to look for another alternative. At that time also and then we should mention is heims motherinlaw was a very strong character and her premier thing was basic to secure and safe family from any harm. So what we know talking to his wife and other witnesses, the motherinlaw basically pushed him and said he should actually leave the country and hide somewhere. How forthcoming was he with his family about what he did . He just said look, theyre after me, this is an injustice, or did they really have a sense of what he did . So from, when we spoke to his wife in the family, they said he had, his wife said she knew he was in the ss but she had no idea about any kind of accusations. And she also pointed out that, for example, her family used to have a role school and the youth of jewish girls and they do want an interview with these kinds of actions. He always claimed that he was innocent. So she encourages him to leave, and he leaves. Do we know roughly how long after he consulted with those lawyers in frankfort . Well, it was several months. Theyre sort of the quiet summer between when he first asked about this and when he speaks to the lower and then when he finally flees, its after the summer vacation. And so its clear that he made significant preparations during that time. He owned an Apartment Building<\/a> and he was worrying about fixing the border. He secured loans. You can see him laying the groundwork. He was a very methodical person and knew that he was, at that point i think already that he was going to run. So where did he go . First, he went to his sisters house, which is significant because his sister would play a role for much of his time in hiding. And then he took his brotherinlaws sports car and high tailed it across europe, driving from germany to spain. And then from spain, its not entirely clear how we got there but he appears to have flown to tangier and rocco which was the first place that he went into hiding for a longer period. He was there for about he was there for even less than a year. One major risk isolation that he made was he appeared to have settled in the jewish quarter of tangier, did not realize that as souad can elaborate, that morocco had a very Good Relationship<\/a> with the jews, still have the Jewish Population<\/a> of today, and he quickly realized that he probably should find someplace a little safer. We know he actually told some people that he didnt feel secure in morocco because they figured out he was too nice to the jews and he was afraid the and nazi hunters would come after him and find him there. He makes his way to egypt or why egypt . Why did he pick egypt and why did he think he would be safe there . Because actually its known that egypt also welcomes a lot of former nazis and should help to build up the rocket system there. They even used some of the former propaganda, nazi propaganda or people to help them set up their propaganda machinery. But what is so interesting about heim, from what we know and all the witnesses accounts, he did not really makes up with the germans. He tried to stay away from them as much as he could, and was actually afraid by mixing up with them, you know, they would find him. His only problem was, i mean, he was actually more or less as tall as nick. For somebody looking for being as tall absolutely. Thats what he also was selling for places where he was sure that there wouldnt be many german people or europeans. He also sort of a ride to the party a little too late, if you will. There have been many german scientist theyre building a Rocket Program<\/a> for not serve as big as any of the time was israel. And by the time a heim had gotten there, most odd had begun a campaign to kill or intimidate nazi and german scientists were working in egypt. Its possible, its not certain that its possible the reason he went to egypt was that a colleague of his who worked with him at the same time, also famous for terrible experiments during the holocaust, he had fled egypt as well and was discovered there. And egyptian second im sorry, we dont have an extradition treaty with west germany and was allowed to live there openly. Well, when he received a letter bomb in the mail that did not hurt him but did nearly killed the letter carrier. So for heim he arrived in egypt a sort of the safe it was beginning to fall apart and he needed to exercise a great deal of caution. But basically he could go to egypt, you were asked to me questions, and you can kind of feel like you would be okay more or less . Well, he did have some help. We do know that there were certain people who are trying to help him with paperwork. And he apparently had to pay for the. We werent really able to figure out who these people were, but for sure he had some help. We do know about one of his partners. He actually didnt invested also together with an egyptian in buying a hotel. And basically more or less stalled the hotel from them. But yet he had the money and he had to have some help for the. I want to go more in depth about his life in egypt by one to sort of pivot for a moment because theres a story within the story, which is your story about reporting this story. Let me ask you about this man, albertine. I had never heard them before i saw your story in the new your times in 2009, an incredible story, learned at the time he was the most wanted nazi war criminal. When did you first hear about this guy . Well, the whole story started in 2008 basically when i received a phone call from an old source of mine, who ive known from actually working also long time for the Washington Post<\/a> with peter covering terrorism. And the person said, well, i need to see you. I cant talk to you about this on the phone, but ill fly, can we meet . We set up a meeting at his coffee shop. You knew it was important because this person was flying to frankfort from where ever they were flying . And it was a very reliable source, someone ive known for many years. The person basically said to me, i know you know, it was jihad these that help nazis. I said what are you talking about . And this source said to you, ie heard that hes in cairo. There was an idea, there was a tip, basically, that he had been in cairo in a certain, area, but you know how large and big cairo is. That means were talking about one million people. So that was all we had. And i took the copy of this photograph and, basically, flew to cairo. And what and then all started, we were searching for, like, three days going from small hotel to small hotel finish. He told you, the source told you that he lived in a hotel. There was the tip that he had been living in a small hotel, yeah. And you just knew the rough zone of cairo. That was all we had. So could have been 500 hotels, could have been a thousand hotels. Me. We had to knock on the door of many hotels, yes. So you fly to cairo yes. And what do you do . I literally took this copy of the photograph and went from small hotel to small hotel and asked people, do you know this person . And people would say, no, or why are you asking or yes, exactly. Some people, you know, they were looking, they were curious, egyptians are very curious, so they were asking why are you looking for him . I dont know him, is he your father . No, no, hes not my father. At some stage somebody said, well, you know, there is a place that used to be a hotel. It no longer is, but they used to have some formers, why dont you go and is there. And this is where we found, basically, the first witness, someone who describe the place. This is a, there was sort of a broken sign that said [speaking in native tongue] but it was of no longer a hotel. It was, basically, they were renting out these rooms that used to be hotel rooms, and i basically went and asked if the owners were there, and the person i spoke to said, no, theyre not, but i can give you the number. He gave us the number, then i basically asked the person do you know this place, yeah, i used to be a waiter here. And i showed him this copy of the photograph, and he started getting tears in his eyes, and he said this is the foreigner who used to live here in the hotel and who died here. And im like, what . But he used a different name. He had no idea. He said his name was farid and that he was he described him, and it was clear that he was talking about him. So this is about three days of work. Yes. You find, you potentially find the guy, find where the guy lived. So you call the family up. Called the family up, the hotel owner, yes. And you said, can i see you . Correct. Yes. So what happened . So we met. I met the sons of the hotel owner, and they were all recognizing him from the photograph and described him as, basically, their uncle. He kind of, like, adopted this egyptian family. And they described how he was teaching them or trying to teach them english and other things, how he was reading a lot about medicine, how he was buying chocolate cake. And at some stage one of them actually mentioned, and you know what . Actually, he left behind this briefcase. And i was actually constantly in touch with nick, and we had decided that i should go alone so that we dont draw too much because you were also in cairo at the time. You came there together no. We were in cairo at other times together. Yeah. For the first, for the initial research we decided that it would be better that i would go alone because he would, i mean, hes like, you know, almost two meters tall. So then they spoke about the briefcase, and i was thinking, well, can i see this briefcase . And they were like, yeah, sure. Did they ask you why you were interested in him . Yes, of course. And what did you tell them . I, of course, didnt tell them who he was. I told them i didnt lie to them, i said i was a journalist, i said i was interested in the family. They knew they were talking to a journalist, and we also filmed some of the search. But since they had no idea that he was the most wanted nazi and we needed also some hard evidence, i did leave that part of the story out. But what happened was then we met, and they brought this briefcase, and it was one of the weirdest moments i had in my journalistic careers. And, you know, i had many weird moments. But when you open this leather briefcase and you find all these sealed envelopes with his handwriting on it, and i unsealed them for the first time. I was not wearing gloves, which was a big mistake. Later on we figured out that we all got sick because of that, but there he had a lot of documents, handwritten documents, testimonies, letters that we found, and we went through all this together later on piece by piece. So what talk a little bit about what was inside this briefcase. Well, you know, heim was a person who liked to keep order, so there were medical records, and there was this envelope where he wrote personal letters, bank account information. So it was all he had, there were personal letters from his family. We found letters from his, especially the one son who later also, later on basically we interviewed him, who sent letters to his father basically describing how he he played and is asking him when he would come back and visit them. But at the same time, medical records, bank account records. So all kinds of different, various proof that we needed to basically prove this man was actually really in cairo. In that briefcase also his own, in his own handwriting a defense of his actions, a denial of the accusations against him, an obsession with israel and with jewish conspiracies as well. You find those documents and clippings in his briefcase. Right. His expression in german is propaganda which means, basically, atrocity propaganda. And he sees Simon Wiesenthal<\/a> as the authority of architect of a campaign against him, and he delves deeply into the subject. He repeatedly, over and over again, writes out a chronology of his life, writes letters describing exactly what happened, you know, at the camp, defends himself. But he also becomes fascinated with what he sees as war crimes committed in the israeli war for independence, war crimes committed by americans in vietnam all in search of a sort of fragile architecture of apology or innocence for himself that he spent literally decades crafting. What did it feel like to hold those documents . What did it feel like to actually read this stuff . Was it weird . Absolutely. I mean, its an actual, you know, connection to these events that, i mean, neither of us was alive during the war, obviously, and here, you know, here the hand that most likely operated on living, Healthy People<\/a> and killed them in the process is writing out this, these explanations and these apologies. In english, german and french, right . As well as some arabic. Some arabic he tried. You discover that during this time in egypt he formally converts to islam . Later on, yes. Not immediately. And there are, you know, some different accounts about this conversion because some people say that he also felt threatened after anwar sadat had the treaty with israel and thought that maybe now he could actually because he was living also under his name harry betheim after the camp david accords, he decided that he Better Change<\/a> his name formally. Thats what his son, for example, mentioned in one of the interviews he did, it might have played a role that he thought it better for him to change the name. And after he converted to islam, of course he was able to take on a different name. Some other people in egypt actually believe that he really was interested in islam, that he read a lot about islam and converted because of that. But its not clear. Its not really clear. But its for sure he had an interest to change his name. Whats definitely clear is that he has a certain he cant hide himself physically. Hes a fairhaired, 63inch westerner, but he has a certain chameleonlike quality where again and again whether, you know, before the war he fits in one way, in the ss he fits in another way. He is the perfect upper middle class doctor, and then somehow he also becomes sort of the perfect muslim as well. Everyone says, you know, he was always very his greetings were very careful. He was formal, he was polite, and they admired the way that he lived. So i think one of the reasons he lose capture where eichmann doesnt is because of this sort of intrinsic ability to sort of slide into what scenario he finds himself in. Yeah. We also have, you know, this neighborhood where he lived in. You mentioned it was like a middle class neighborhood in egypt. It was not one of the, like, really chic european places where you would find a lot of westerners, but we know that, like, we went back there and interviewed all these neighbors and the shop owners, and they were all saying he was so kind, very nice, was greeting them, had always time for a chat. So he really tried to fit in and, basically, also be open to the egyptians, towards the egyptians but not too much towards, like, westerners. You discover a briefcase that is going to also potentially be embarrassing to the Egyptian Government<\/a> or past Egyptian Government<\/a>s. Something tells me they didnt want you to have that briefcase, but you managed to smuggle that briefcase out. Can you talk about that process . I dont know how much you can talk about, but what happened . How did that happen . Well, you know, first you have to convince an egyptian family that was kind of like where the brothers were fighting each other because they were from different mothers and, like, giving you the briefcase which took quite some time. They didnt give it to me immediately, so i had to go back to germany and, yes, of course, then i was thinking we were talking, and i was thinking how do we get this stuff out of egypt . And it was clear that, yes, if we would have if they would have caught us with this stuff, then probably we would have ended up in jail. We eventually ended up in jail but not because of the briefcase. Yeah. So it took a lot of fantasy and let me put it this way also, the experience of an investive female reporter to investigative female reporter to find a way getting it out. All i can say is every woman has her secrets. [laughter] and, yes. But it worked. So you convinced this family to give you the briefcase, and they parted with it. Correct. And you bring it back to germany, and really you start to go through those documents. Curiously, wheres the briefcase now . Well, the briefcase actually found its way to the police because there was, obviously, an open investigation into the crimes that he committed, and i believe then ultimately went back the family to the family as property. So the family basically decided after the briefcase reached germany that they didnt want it. They asked lawyers to obtain it and give it to, hand it over to the police. And so theres another very interesting side story about this briefcase because literally every, any person who touched it fell sick. I mean, we all had the most severe two weeks of, like, flu that i never witnessed in my whole life. Do you suspect there was something deliberate pulse in there . Just a curse. It was a curse. Because we didnt really touch the papers with gloves, we had no gloves on. So later on the authorities said, guys, i mean, just for your information we found some weird old eggs of cockroaches and other stuff on these papers, so we understand why you all fell sick. Yeah. But so, obviously, presumably you had already gone through all the documents or copied them all. You had them ready to really begin going through those documents. That is a fair assumption. [laughter] so this is, i mean, this is part detective story and part, you know, sort of eluding capture because had you been caught at customs, i mean, not only could i mean, you would wouldnt have been here. Definitely not. Yes. Theres several people in the acknowledgments of the book whose assistance may have involved safe harbor for a briefcase in a wardrobe or a trunk or different places. When the story came out in the New York Times<\/a>, what was the reaction in egypt . Well, we did kind of, we feared not we feared, but we were expecting some reactions from the Egyptian Government<\/a>, and we did not expect them to be very happy about the story. But we did not, certainly, expect that they would more or less take everybody who had worked with us on that story for questioning. You mean everybody in egypt . For interrogation. Interrogation and some people even had to spend a couple of days in custody from the family, or the first person i spoke to, you know, this person who used to be, who used to work at the hotel who recognized him even though they had no idea what therapy after what you were after, just that they were being helpful and friendly. Yes. Yes, unfortunately. The story, i think, was seen i mean, first of all, you know, egypt and israel at that time have gone from enemies, sworn enemies to friends. And the briefcase and the fact that he was there and the fact that this opens up a window into the other nazis who were there and were protected is an embarrassment to the Egyptian Government<\/a>. And whether it was wittingly or unwittingly, it was seen that this family was perceived as having helped embarrass the Egyptian Government<\/a>. Before i open it up for questions, i know there are a lot of questions here, i just want to ask from a personal perspective i know that you worked on this book for several years now. Souad, you are by birth, by culture, by spirit youre muslim. Right. You grew up in germany, but, you know, this is your faith and your background and something that you dont shy away from, youre proud of, you embrace it. Obviously, youre not here in head scarf, but and you travel the world alone, but this is sensitive stuff. Right. To be working on, you know, especially when youre working in the arab world. People want to know who your father was, what your background is, where you come from. So how does that dynamic play out . I mean, what happens when you go there, what do people think about your involvement in this project . Actually, we, of course, also returned to egypt for the story, and, i mean, yes, when they swipe my passport, it does make some noise and, yes, we do know that weve been followed. I guess can, you know, look, this is people do understand im a journalist, so i took the story on as a journalist. But, yes, of course im also muslim, and i grew up in germany. Im the child of turkishmoroccan parents. At the same time, i think this book also is telling the story that there were arab countries, there was an egypt that was hiding nazis, but at the same time there are also arab countrieses, and we mention morocco, bahrain and other countries where you have a Jewish Population<\/a> and where people are playing, jewish people are playing a role. They are in the upper house of the parliament, so thats the other, thats the flip side. And so i hope actually, also, that this might be, you know, might lead to some other thinking and also in the muslim world. And so far from in doing all my traveling since we had the story in the New York Times<\/a>, people actually were much more intrigued to learn more about what happened, what role did the nazis play. So i hope this is opening, actually, also some curiosity in arab countries. Terrific. Theres so much more to this book, obviously, and im sure other questions that will come up, but it really reads like a caper. Its just an absolutely fascinating book, and congratulations to both of you for this work and to see it here in print must be immensely satisfying. I want to open up the floor for questions to souad and to nicholas. I have many more, so im happy to add questions of my own, but are there any questions . Back there, mark mezetti. Hey, guys. On the family just introduce yourself. Mark mezetti, colleague of nick and former colleague of souad with the New York Times<\/a>. The family, did they learn he was a nazi from your story, or did you tell them before your story ran about his past and what was the reaction . The family was really well aware starting in 1979 of what had happened. It was an interesting side story which was that he became a sort of prominent case of a holocaust perpetrator shortly after the holocaust miniseries that made huge waves in the late 70s appeared. And he was featured and profiled in People Magazine<\/a> which led to death threats, bomb threats, Television Crews<\/a> camped outside the familys house. The family believes that that was actually the reason that the grandmother had a stroke. So they really were in the limelight as the family of a fugitive nazi for quite some time. Im sorry, actually, i meant the egyptians [inaudible] thats interesting too. [laughter] [inaudible] well, they had no idea that he was actually a most wanted nazi war criminal. All they knew was that he was coming from germany, and he had told them, actually, the story that he came to egypt because of some back problems and that that was me, sorry. Some back problems and because he needed to be in a country with Better Weather<\/a> conditions than in germany. There is, he had he was friends with a dentist, actually, and the son of the dentist we interviewed, we interviewed them. He told us that he understood, basically, from the stories that heim was telling that he wasnt much of a friend with jewish people. But they had no idea that he was on the most wanted list of the the [inaudible] back there. Thank you. Its paul [inaudible] i study here at sais. First, how well known is dr. Heims story in germany, and how does reporting on it come to terms with nazi crimes . And secondly, ive read that holocaust indifference is more widespread in the muslim world in light of the arabisraeli conflict. Could you speak to that and also link that to the fact that he chose the arab world as a place of refuge as well. Thank you. Well, i think that, one, its very interesting, you know, he had a large body of pseudoacademic research that he did about a group that he called the kazars which is an empire in what today would be with, you know, ukraine roughly and areas around that. Basically saying that most European Jews<\/a> are actually converts and not semitic peoples from israel. And he goes through this long, convoluted, i mean, its a 100page Research Report<\/a> in which he basically says it is impossible to have antisemitism because European Jews<\/a> are not semites. So he fit very much into the popular egyptian attitude toward israel and toward jews. Actually, one of nass orers propaganda nassers Propaganda Ministry<\/a> employees or managers, omar amin was actually a prop grandist for hitler. So it was a neat fit for someone like him. The dynamics became more uncomfortable as they changed over time. And if i might add something to your second question, the denial of the holocaust, i think you mentioned that in the arab world. Yes, that was indeed, i mean, when we spoke about egypt, it was indeed something that was back then very popular. But i think now because there are many books available or more books available also in arabic about the holocaust and because there are certain people in prominent positions, i mentioned morocco, bahrain in parliament who speak up and who also are helping to translate these kind of books that talk about the holocaust, it is, you can find actually more and more among young people, arab people an interest in that subject. And the interesting thing is when i speak to people in arab countries about that time, when you go to some of the concentration camps and you read, you know, the stone plates like where the soldiers came or where the people, the inmates came from that were killed in some of these concentration camps, you will very often find also arab countries. And there were many soldiers or people who because back then we had colonial, you know, colonialism in morocco, algeria and other places that used to fight with the french, the british and so on and that died there. So thats another interesting dynamic that is going on right now. And the problem was for a long time there werent enough books translated into arabic, and thats changing now. Sir, in the back. Hello, my name is [inaudible] im also a student here at sais. Thank you so much for your talk. Its been a really fascinating story. I wanted to know from you whether you got the impression that heim lived a happy life once he found refuge in egypt or not to. And how, and how did he, did he die . I mean, not physically, but in what mental state do you think his life ended . We know a couple of stories, for example, he was in alexandria for some time, and then some biker started talking to him. We had, we think there might have been some attraction from the biker towards heim, but heim actually really feared this might have been some mossad agent or nazi hunter who was after him, so he left immediately and went somewhere else. So he was still very cautious. Did he live a happy life . He definitely, i mean, look, he had his older son didnt want to have anything to do with him, he did not visit his father in egypt. We know that the younger son went to egypt a couple of times and was there. Was he happy that he was away from his family . I mean, definitely not. But he kind of, like, adopted as nick said earlier to the situation, and he adopted the family of the Egyptian Hotel<\/a> owner. And then maybe you want to Say Something<\/a> more to that. Well, before i get to his death, i mean, theres sort of a central irony here which was that he fled germany to spare his family and to avoid justice. And if he had stayed, i think its very likely having looked at other cases from the time, people who were involved in execution squads in the east who received sixyear sentences. Its very likely that he would have received a few years and then continued on with his life. His family never would have been subjected to the media spectacle. They also never would have dealt with literally decades of surveillance by the german police. So, and then theres something of a fugitive tax where when people realize that youre not fully legal in a country, they exact more and more from you until eventually he was left with he started with a great deal of money, great deal of property and ended with almost nothing and a really deep sense of betrayal and loneliness. So i think that, i think he kind of created a worse prison for himself in a way than if he had just faced justice like he should have. And he ultimately died very painfully with little medical treatment being cared for by his son of incredibly painful rectal cancer, for anyone who believes in divine retribution instead of justice on earth. Yeah. And the story after, what happened after his death, basically, there was a little fighting going on between his sons because, apparently, his father said i want that my body after i die should be given to, you know, the university for medical testing. But then mahmoud said, well, youre muslim, thats not thats a no go, you know . You have to be buried in one piece. And then, basically, from what we know is that so he passed away, and then these two men were fighting what to do. And then eventually mahmoud gave in because he knew rued ger was his son. But they were driving from hospital to hospital trying to hand over the body, and then people were saying, no, no, no, no, its not possible. And it was, you know, this is cairo, it is very hot, and at some page mahmoud is telling him, you know what . We cant go on like this because it smells already. So they handed him over to a hospital and left him there. And what we know is that according to witnesses and records that he was then buried in a common grave, more or less. And it appears that his egyptian son, if you will, outsmarted himself, because he gave the impression to the german son that the body had been donated to science. And then his plan was to return and claim the body and put heim in the family crypt where he felt that he belonged. But when he went back, they said youre not related, youre not a blood relative of this man. We dont just give bodies to anyone. Then they said the only thing we can do with an unclaimed body is put it in a common grave. Did, a question about rudyger, because this is his youngest son who kept in touch with him, who flew to see him on a few occasions, he wrote him colded letters, who is coded letters. Who is still alive. And you, of course, interviewed him, and he acknowledged this to you. Why was he never held responsible for any of that . Or would he have been held accountable for, you know, given the fact that his father was a wanted man . Well, theres this law in germany that when you you are a direct member of the family, you cannot, basically, be held accountable. Yes, yes. So there was no way of holding him accountable for that. For helping his father, because it was his father. But he always knew where he was. Well, he knew, then once yes. I mean, once he visited him the first time, he knew where he was, he helped them. He was one of the people who started, you know, to send him money especially after heims sister passed away, she was one of the main income sources for heim. But, yes, as i said, there is this law and they could not, basically, go of after him because of that. How have germans responded to rudyger . He lives in germany. Its now known he was helping his father who was a wanted nazi war criminal in germany, of course, the cub that really has the country that really has come to terms with its past and has, i mean, has he been threatened . Are there, you know, can he live a normal life . Well, he lives a very secluded life, actually. He was living with his mother in the quite spacious badden badden villa where the family has been, you know, for decades. And his mother passed away during the time when we were researching this book, and now i believe hes living there by himself in this house. And he interacts with very few people. He was raised by his grandmother and his mother to fear kidnapping, to fear attacks. So hes very mistrustful, i think its safe to say. Absolutely. And then, you know, later in life if people asked him about his father, he believed in some instances correctly that the police were trying to use friends of his as informants, and i think in other cases incorrectly he took innocent queries to be that, and so hes not someone who interacts with the world that much, i would say. Yes. And he was also, how can i he was also trying to somehow live different lives, you could say. I mean, on one hand he knew his father was this most wanted nazi war criminal. On the other hand, he became friends with this couple with, like, a man from italy who was, with whom he became close friends, and then they opened a couple, you know, opened a restaurant, and he never told him who his father was. He actually always lied about that. And at one stage this italian who then became an artist and lived with his girlfriend in spain found himself at the Police Station<\/a> in spain questioned by the Spanish Police<\/a> because they said, well, we know youre receiving money from heim, and our suspicion is that you are, basically, hiding his father who is mr. So and so, the most wanted nazi. And so all of a sudden this man, you know, finds himself in this big mess. And so rudyger was always trying to hide this fact from also his closest friends. You had a question here, sir. Can you just wait for the microphone, please. Tim berger, im a recovering journalist. [laughter] old friend of nicks. Curious, first, two quick things. Was there any sense that the Egyptian Government<\/a> did have some notion of who he was and that there was in some way harboring him, as theres been questions about, the pakistan bin laden . Rip and secondly, did heims family know that he probably did these thing, or did they simply know that he was wanted and sort of not dig dealer than that deeper than that . I think that it appears more likely that he was paying extremely high visa renewal fees, that he had egyptian, egyptian colleagues who were basically handing out bribes at the interior ministry whenever it was time for him to get a new stamp in his passport. I think what was your second question . Whether his family knew that yes. He had committed the atrocities. I wanted this to say about his son, you know, hes not a holocaust denier. He simply believes that his father was innocent, that his father was sent to a concentration camp to work as a doctor and applied for a transfer as quickly as possible and didnt, didnt do the things that hes accused of. And that which i think, you know, he went through some weekslong sessions with his father going minute by minute through all the testimony telling him how things were impossible, how he couldnt have done them. So i think its easy to read the book and to sit back and say its obvious this man is guilt, but rudyger was subjected to intense, intense argumentation by his own father on the subject. Did you come to the conclusion in your reporting that heim was guilty . Yes. Well, we, our aim was in this book to be, you know, not to basically say he did it or he did not, but lets put it in this way, from what we learned and the witnesses, the testimonies, it looks like it, absolutely. What does rudyger think about your book, about the article that came out, about all these revelations that are now known to thousands, hundreds of thousands of people around the world who read your New York Times<\/a> article and others who will read the book . I havent seen him since the book came out, so ill let souad answer that question. I saw him, actually, for handing him one of the book copies. I saw him in germany. And he did, of course, i mean, this is were talking about the person who was obsessed, obsessed for many years with the story of his father, with anything related to mauthausen, basically pause he made because he made it his mission to prove that his father must have been innocent. Well, he realize, of course, the article that came out before the book came out. He read our article, and he understood from the very beginning that we are going to do our, we are reporters. Were making our job here, you know, we do our jobs as journalists. I think he sees the book also or this whole story as a way of, like, maybe finding a way out of his obsession. That was the, so we spoke about what his plans were, and he was actually trying he no longer really talks much ant that time. About that time. And i found that very surprising. Whenever we met him beforehand like for interviewing for the book is and other stuff, he was all the time just obsessed about the time. And this time he was talking about orr things and other plans other things and other plans he had. So as far as you know, hes not angry with you, he doesnt, he hasnt sort of lashed out at you, he hasnt said these are all lies . No, not yet. Not that were aware of. Yes. Lets see how the next coffee meeting goes. There any other questions . Sir, in the front here. Please wait for the microphone. Eric london. Three questions. One, was it simultaneously released in german . And what are the plans for that . Its being translated. Itll come out next year in germany if we answer the questions that the translators sent us that we havent answered yet. The second question is about the german laws about Family Member<\/a>s testifying against other Family Member<\/a>s in investigations. That sort of struck me as unusual. We wouldnt, i think as americans, thats unlike what our legal system is like. If a Family Member<\/a> knows about a crime thats committed, theyre going to at least be pulled in as part of the investigation. And it seemed like in germany there was a handsoff attitude or culture about Family Member<\/a>s not being pressured about testifying. And the third thing was the process of the german people, at least from the book, took a good 30 years before it seemed like from reading the book that the Popular Culture<\/a> sort of rose up against former war criminals to the point where they were being vilified in the media. Is that an accurate take from the reading of the book . I mean, one person probably most important character in the book who we havent touched on in this discussion was a veteran of the german army who became a Police Officer<\/a> and then became the main point person on the heim investigation. It was very interesting that in the early years of doing these kinds of investigations against nazi war criminals they, he was insulted, he was threatened, he was bullied, his files would disappear. So the idea that germany wanted to come to terms with and make amends for the crimes of the holocaust was really something, i think, that you might say began in 1968, that very important year, and continued, gathered steam well into the 80s before it really became anchored in most levels of german society. Yes. I mean, and something that you mentioned also was syrias holocaust, basically, which then was in, like, 78, 79 . 78 in the United States<\/a>, 79 in germany. That was a catalyst. That was also a big catalyst that moved something in germany. Theres, its interesting because theres this sense that the germans have dealt with the holocaust the last 70 years, right . But the reality is its really been part of the consciousness only recently, only in the last few decades only since that series really beginning in the late 60s. Is that right . Yeah, i think thats true. And it would have been bad form in the 50s or in the early 60s to ask people about their wartime service. Very few people did, and there were people who tried to make, you know, to make prosecutions and things like that. But it was largely sort of left alone. And it was the later generations, i think, who turned back and said this, you know, these were mistakes and it probably took decades for all the scholarship to come out as well, right . I mean, it really concern you didnt have a full understanding of what had happened. Absolutely. And i, i mean, i grew up in germany, and i remember, yes, we do read lots or we, theyve been teaching us a lot in history, but i remember quite well that when schindlers list came out, for example, that was a movie when we went with our class to see it, it was really the first time where visually you saw what happened within these concentration, these camps and how they treated people. And this is something, i mean, that led to many discussions. And im coming from, you know, we are like the Younger Generation<\/a> now, and very often i had the impression growing up in germany that the Younger Generation<\/a> didnt really want to know what happened there because they always found, oh, yes, once the teachers, it means theyre also pointing the finger at us, and they also had this issue with the guilt. But i personally found it very important that we still go on learning about this and theres still so many things we have to learn. The reactions we also got with after this book was released is, basically, many people said there are so many things we didnt know. So many things about what happened in the camps, but also how difficult it was to find these people. And so this shows, actually, theres still a lot to learn. We are not done yet. Simon wiessen that would was obsessed with this guy, right . You could sort of say. The man who eventually took over as the chief nazi hunter, if you will, was convinced that he was in latin america, maybe chile, argentina. There was a 3, 400,000 reward for his capture. What did he think about, what does he think about your work, and what did he think about the article that came out in 2009 . Well, i think that, i mean, zurov, the search for heim in latin america, in chile in particular where heim, coincidentally, had an illegitimate daughter which created this notion, this connection, was a really important, you know, case that he was pursuing. And so when we more or less called him up out of the blue and said the guy was in egypt, you know, i dont think that that was the call that he expected or that he wanted. And i think that he felt a responsibility pause theres no body because theres no body, he felt a respondent to say, well, you know, without a body, without dna evidence, you know, can we really say for sure that this man is dead . Did the phantom who escaped s","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia802701.us.archive.org\/0\/items\/CSPAN2_20140413_133000_Book_Discussion_on_The_Eternal_Nazi\/CSPAN2_20140413_133000_Book_Discussion_on_The_Eternal_Nazi.thumbs\/CSPAN2_20140413_133000_Book_Discussion_on_The_Eternal_Nazi_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240619T12:35:10+00:00"}