We interviewed the newly swornin librarian of congress, carla hayden, about her life and career. Youll hear from Ruth Bader Ginsburg reflecting on her time on the supreme court. Pulitzer prizewinning historian alan taylor examines the american revolution, and booktv visits grand rapids, michigan, to visit the citys lit air sites literary sites. Those are just a few of the programs youll see on booktv. For a complete schedule, booktv. Org is our web site. 48 hours of nonfiction books and authors every weekend, booktv is television for serious readers. And now well kick off the weekend with Kate Andersen brower. She talks about the first ladies from 1960 to the present day. [inaudible conversations] good evening, everyone. Thank you all so much for coming out on this friday night. Im a bookseller and supervisor here at politics prose bookstore, and on behalf of the owners and the staff, id like to welcome you all to tonights event. Just a couple of housekeeping items. First of all, if you could turn off or silence your cell phones, itd be greatly appreciated. For the q a, please remember to step up to the microphone we have set up here on your right. [laughter] before asking your questions, as we are being filmed. Hi, folks at home. And so we can all its being recorded, and we can all hear and partake in the conversation. Copies of tonights book are all behind the registers at the front of the store if youd like to purchase one, and i highly recommend that you do. Lastly, after the event itd be a great help if youd fold up your chairs and lean them up against the neuroest wall or book shelf nearest wall or book shelf. Kate brower covered the Obama White House for bloomberg news. Shes the author of the New York Times bestseller, the residence inside the private world of the white house. I can honestly say the residence is one of my favorite books. Anytime a customer asks me for a nonfiction be selection in paper back, you can usually find me walking to it before they finish their sentence. Kate shines a light on one of the most misunderstood and challenging of roles, that of the first lady of the united states. She shares an astonishing amount of stories from various first ladies as well as their closest associates. These stories range from shocking to tragic to heartfelt. First or women is a New York Times best seller and has gotten great reare views. Usa today wrote its a surprisingly deep look at the women who sometimes overshadow their husbands. Without further ado, help me welcome in Kate Andersen brower. [applause] thank you very much, that was the nicest intro ive ever gotten [laughter] so you made my day. So, yeah, i wrote a book called the residence about the maids and butlers at the white house that came out last year, and that inspired me to write this book about the first ladies because the white house staff would often say when a decision comes from the second floor, that means its coming from the east wing, the first lady herself. And i always thought that was really interesting. Their relationship with the first lady led me to delve into the role of first ladies and what is it like. Its one of the hardest jobs, you know, because theres no Job Description for it. They dont have any idea what theyre supposed to do, and youre kind of damned if you do and damned if you dont. I interviewed three first ladies for the residence, and i was amazed at how candid Rosalynn Carter was about how difficult it is to watch your husband and campaign for your husband and then have him lose an election. And these women work incredibly hard behind the scenes. And especially with this election that we are going through as we speak, its going to be fascinating to see who the president ial spouse be had been and will it be the first man to ever occupy the role. We dont even know what wed call him, the first gentleman, i guess, who was a former president , of course, which will change the mold forever and maybe make it easier for first ladies in the future to continue their careers and to perhaps have, you know, a bigger seat at the table. Women like Hillary Clinton and Rosalynn Carter, you know, sat in on cabinet meetings. Hillary clinton famously had an office in the west wing. And i think most people many people in this country were not happy with the extent of involvement that both of those women had in the white house. And so well see if bill clinton changes any of that. And melania trump, of course, would be the first immigrant first lady. I mean, Luis Adams Louisa adams was born in london, but her father was american, so it would be really interesting to see melania having both of her parents being slovenian. But i covered the white house for bloomberg news, and when i was there, i had a lunch with Michelle Obama and about a a dozen other reporters, mostly women, who covered the east wing. And at this lunch that was to promote the lets move campaign, she made an offhand remark about president obama finally kicking his smoking habit. And that became the huge headline from this lunch. And that also made me think, you know, the whole lunch was very staged, and she was really not very you know, it was something that was meant to promote this signature issue, and the one offhand, kind of honest comment she made totally overtook the whole point of the lunch. So that also made me think about the limitations placed on these women, the pressure put on them. They are constitutionally required to be perfect. [laughter] its really an incredible job. When i interviewed steve ford, betty fords son, he said my mother wasnt perfect. She said she was an ordinary woman in an extraordinary time. And i think its their imperfection and humanity that makes them so compelling and interesting. And without these women, their husbands wouldnt have been elected, and thats almost to a person, and i start the book with Jackie Kennedy mostly because i wanted to interview people who were still alive and talk to people who were there. I interviewed a wonderful woman who was Lady Bird Johnsons social secretary, so i wanted to start with jackie also because shes probably, next to eleanor roosevelt, the most famous first lady weve ever had. I did more than 200 interviews with white house aides, first ladies friends, and i was also for this book happy because i got to speak with a few resident staffers who wouldnt talk to he for my first book including the head butler, george haney, who he was very tough to get. For the first book he would not answer my phone call, but then finally i was able to get an interview with him, and he had some Great Stories that were really illuminating about what its like for the obamas in the white house because hes one of the butlers who worked on the second floor. And one thing i thought that he said that was really interesting was that just the security concerns that the obamas and every first family faces, but especially the obamas and he talked about how on truman balcony, that he would want to have dinner outside, sometimes the butlers would suggest they not eat outside because there were too many people crowded around the south lawn dates. And when they do can seat them, they have to make sure theyre positioned behind columns. Its a really incredibly stressful race place to live. And be i thought that really shed light on the prisonlike elements of the white house that Michelle Obama has talked about recently and how to she cant wait to leave. [laughter] which, again, i think is interesting because she and Hillary Clinton are so very different. Hillary clinton cant wait to come back into the white house, and michelle cant wait to get out. [laughter] another thing i really wanted to get into with this book was this profound sense of empathy that these women have for each other, so there are these great letters that you can find in the president ial libraries that show, you know, Lady Bird Johnson writing to Jackie Kennedy and these relationships that go on well past their years in the white house. And some of these letters were really touching and, you know, lady bird writing to caroline kennedy, for instance, after john kennedy jr. s death in the plane crash and to just think about the incredible history that the johnsons and the kennedys have had together. Lady bird was, you know, in the motorcade when jfk was killed, and i thought it was a really interesting window into this personal dynamic that these women have. I also thought it was very sweet that letters that Lady Bird Johnson would write to other first ladies, she would write do not answer in all caps in the margins because she didnt want them to feel compelled to write anything. If they were, you know, sometimes these women would learn about an illness or, you know, for instance when president reagan was diagnosed with alzheimers, there are some wonderful letters between betty in order and barbara bush writing to nancy reagan where they really feel for her, and theres an incredible kind of personal element with these letters back before everyone used email all the time. So its very nice to see that kind of personal dynamic. One thing i also thought was really interesting, i started this book out wondering if there was a letter that first ladies leave for each other in the same way that theres a letter that president s leave for each other. I found out that there isnt. They dont have a formal letter, but they do do this white house tour, and thats really the substitute where, you know, between the election in november and the inauguration in january, the outgoing first lady gives the incoming first lady or first gentleman, potentially in this case a tour of the second and third floors of the white house. And during this tour, they offer each other advice. After the 2000 election Hillary Clinton told laura bush not to let the responsibilities of her new role cloud her decision making. Hillary had always regretted turning down an invitation from Jackie Kennedy can. Jackie had invited her and chelsea to go to the ballet in new york, but hillary said she was too busy and couldnt make it, and jackie passed away a few months later. So hillary always regretted that, and she wanted to pass on this piece of advice to laura. And she also told laura she regretted having an office in the west wing. And i spoke with one clinton aide who talked about, you know, they wished that that they when they saw the public reaction to it, they wished they could have turned back time and not had that west wing office and perhaps she was too ambitious thinking she could recreate the role of first lady when the public wasnt ready for it. Another thing thats very interesting is theres this one spot where they can stand where the outgoing first lady and the incoming first lady stand, and they can point to the oval office from the second floor from a dressing room and see into the oval office, and every first lady will take the incoming first lady to the spot and say if you stand right here, you can see your husband working. [laughter] so its a way for them to feel connected, i think, in some ways to their lives. They do feel very confined. A lot of them, i was surprised to learn, worked out of the residence. Nancy reagan rarely went to the east wing. And she had one secretary, well, close aide who would deliver news to her in the residence. I think that would be incredibly klaus phobic, you know . Claustrophobic, you know . Betty ford called it a onebedroom apartment, you know, feeling like youre upstairs all the time. And when laura bush gave Michelle Obama her first tour of the white house, she was eager to assure michelle that a life could be made there for her daughters, and she wanted the tour to be special and private even though michelle had brought along a staffer, and so laura told michelles aide, this is really for michelle and i, you can meet with my staff, this is a private visit for us. Andi thought it was interesting that michelle brought an aide because she came from the corporate world x she thought this was what you do, but it was really not keeping with protocol. And there are a lot of things you dont know about until you do them, and thats one of those smaller things that michelle she also brought a gift which apparently you dont do either, so there are all these Little Things that you dont know that are faux pass that your not supposed youre not supposed to do. Another thing i thought was interesting about how Michelle Obama approached being first lady that i think speaks volumes about her is that the residence staff always leaves a folder of information for the president and the first lady to review on a console table outside their bedroom on the second floor. And Michelle Obama didnt like having to walk by this table and and see this work all the time. She wanted the second floor living space to be strictly for her daughters and to feel like home to them as a family. And so she asked for her folder to be put in an office area and for the president s folder of work to be put in the treaty room which is, essentially, an office on the second floor of the white house. And i think thats a really interesting, small change, but i think it speaks volumes about how the obamas have approached life in the white house with two young daughters. Also a white house usher told me theyre the first first family to turn off the lights themselves on the second floor, that before them an usher would turn off the lights at the end of the night. I think that also speaks to their kind of middle class, you know, roots whereas the bushs, for instance, especially barbara bush and george h. W. Bush, they grew up with a lot of wealth, and i think they were much more used to some of this, and thats getting back to my first book. But the resident saf said they were really staff said they were really great to work for, because they were used to being catered to in a lot of ways. And i think Michelle Obama and president obama found it a little bit more difficult to feel like someone was always listening in to their conversations. Now, the relationships, i have a chapter in the book about the sisterhood among these women, and theres one chapter about bad blood between them that comes out, you know, during Campaign Season especially and another chapter about the sisterhood. I do think that the sisterhood is very powerful, and i think its really interesting that it doesnt have to do with party lines, you know . A lot of these friendships are between republicans and democrats. For instance, Michelle Obama and laura bush are much more similar, you know, temperament wise than Michelle Obama and Hillary Clinton. Barbara bush and nancy reagan really didnt get along at all. In fact, someone asked nancy reagan after they left the white house about barbara bush, and nancy said i really didnt get to know her that well. But they had been there for eight years together. And i interviewed one of Nancy Reagans very close aides who said that, you know, its essentially like if your husband is a law partner and my husband is a law partner, it doesnt mean that we have to get along x. I thought that was an interesting sort of illuminating thing to say about the dynamic between these women. And that really came out very clearly because Jackie Kennedy would not go back to the white house when Lady Bird Johnson asked her to come back. It was too painful for her after her husbands assassination, and lady bird really wanted her to come back for the dedication of the garden in her name. And jackie wouldnt go until pat nixon asked her to come back. Now, more time had passed, but its interesting to see this meeting between a republican fist lady and a democrat, i mean, two women who could not be more different, you know, standard bearers for their party. And its a really dramatic scene where on february 3, 1971, jackie visited the white house for the First Time Since her husbands assassination. And its a private there was a private visit. She would only go if no one knew about it. She didnt want any press there, and she went for the unveiling of the official portraits, hers and her husbands portrait. And she brought along 13yearold caroline and 10yearold john kennedy jr. , and they had a very awkward dinner with the nixons where john kennedy jr. Apparently spilled his milk and lightened the mood considerably. It was very difficult for her to go back. I mean, there were a lot of happy memories, but it was also very sad for her. And there were wonderful letters at the Kennedy Library that are just incredible that john kennedy jr. Wrote to pat nixon and president nixon saying i can never thank you more for showing us the white house, and he talks about sitting on the lincoln bedroom bed where his father had slept and making a wish he would do well in school which i think is very sweet. Its kind of a touching thing, that they went for this visit and that she went back, that jackie went back when pat nixon invited her to. These women were rivals in 1960, during the 1960 campaign. Pat nixon even wanted a recount, she was so upset at the result. So this was not an easy relationship. The most poignant letter, though, came from jackie herself written in her signature spidery stationery. Can you imagine the gift you gave us to return to the white house privately with my little ones, she wrote. The day i always dread canned turned out to be one of the most precious ones i have spent with my children. May god bless you all. And i just think that shows the humanity among these women, that they do go through so much, and they understand intimately what its like to live in the white house and to go through, you know, the sort of security concerns and the painful loss that jackie went through is something that pat nixon could understand and kind of sympathize with. During the 1976 president ial campaign, Rosalynn Carter was on her way to pay her respects to Lady Bird Johnson whose husband had been the most recent democratic president. The day before their meeting, jimmy carters embarrassing playboy interview was published where he talked about committing adultery in his heart many times and and Something Else he talked about was how nixon and johnson both lied and cheated and distorted the truth and merely mentioning johnson and nixon in the same breath at that time so close to watergate was anathema to democrats. So heres Rosalynn Carter in this awkward position very shortly after this article ran. Rosalynn turned to an aide who was close with the johnsons and said what does mrs. Johnson think about the interview, what should i say about it . The aides say you dont say anything, mrs. Carter. You a southern lady youre a southern lady, it wont be brought up. And it wasnt. [laughter] so, i mean, these women, theres a code. Lady bird johnson knew better than anyone what it was like to deal with a husband who offended and upset people at times. President johnson was not an easy man to live with at all, and so i think that that, again, shows their very close bond and their understanding. Another thing thats interesting, and i mentioned this, is the prisonlike element, and you do hear Michelle Obama talk very candidly about just wanting to roll down the windows of a car and have the freedom to do that, this very simple thing. When i interviewed the chief usher who ran the white house, essentially, he told me that michelle really wanted him to call her michelle, and she said, you know, i really want someone to call me michelle and not mrs. Obama or first lady, and he said he couldnt do it. From then on, very few people would ever call her michelle even though she desperately wanted them to. And when i interviewed aides to the obamas, they said, you know and this was two years ago or a year and a half ago, and they said theyre ready, theyre done, she cannot wait to leave the white house. And so im sure that that has only ramped up in the recent months. She misses being able to pend time with her daughters without being swarmed by photographers and reporters, close obama aide has a child around the same age as one of obamas daughters, and i talked to him, and he told me during soccer season the first lady would tease him that hed probably be tied up all weekend doing carpools. And he said, yeah, probably with a shrug, and he said im sure you dont miss it, and she replied, oh, youd be surprised. Is so those Little Things like carpools they really do seem to miss. And michelles mother is lonely too. She is in a suite on the third floor. Ive been told its not that, you know, it sounds much more luxurious than it is. Its just a bedroom with a small sitting room attached to it, and the head butler who i interviewed for this book, george haney, he felt so bad for Marian Robinson one morning when he was serving her breakfast, he said, you know, do you want to get out a little bit, my wife would love to take you to the mall and go out for lunch. So his wife shirley took marian out to an up disclosed location, because apparently they go there a lot. But it was just a suburban shopping mall, and she said it was very fun. Its a sweet thing that she cant wait to get out a little bit herself too. And i talked a little bit about where they physically work from. Michelle obama works from her east wing office and really does keep more of a distinction between the private and work life. I think with a lot of the other first ladies, especially nancy reagan, there was a little bit of bleeding over. I mean, nancy reagan was one of the most involved first ladies in, you know, of all time. She was someone who had, you know, chief of staff don regan famously fired, although other people wanted him fired as well. I mean, she was someone who was influencing who her husbands chief of staff was and who was surrounding him in his cabinet which is incredibly powerful. Thats the most powerful position you could be in, is deciding whos surrounding the president. One aide called her the Human Resources department, essentially. [laughter] and i think nancy reagan is really interesting, too, because when i interviewed resident staffers about her, they said she was very particular and that that could be really upsetting. A lot of times she wasnt happy, there were stories about her being so angry if, you know, the dessert wasnt exactly what she wanted, if she asked for asparagus and she got green beans, thered be hell to pay. But the flip side of that was she was also very meticulous, and so when the gorbachevs came for this historic visit to washington, the First Time Since khrushchev had been here, the white house had never looked more beautiful. And she had the flowers changed three times in one day. And because she understood in every room. I mean, it was just, she understood the power of the white house. And the flip side of that is, of course, she was criticized for being queen nancy and spending too much money. So, and its also sad, i talked to a friend of hers who described watching nancy reagan after her husband was diagnosed with alzheimers. Nancy went to the republican convention, it was the first time she had gone without him, and she started tearing up at the podium when she was talking. And this friend called mrs. Reagan up afterwards and said, you know, i was so happy to see you be be express i and be so honest expressive and be so honest and emotional, and nancy reagan said, you know, i felt i had to build a wall up around myself in the white house, and i could never really let people see that side of me. So i think theres something to that, that she felt that she had to be kind of the strong one. And when i interviewed ron reagan, their son, he said that his mother was, you know, very brave, and she would take a lot of criticism that president reagan didnt want to take. He wanted everyone to love him. And she didnt really care if people liked her or not, she just wanted to get things done. So you could look at her legacy as first lady as one of incredible bravery in some ways. I mean, she got she did get things done. And i talked a little bit about, well, i mean, the nancy nancy did not have a great relationship with a lot of other first ladies, she didnt get along with barbara bush. There were even rumors floating that nancy reagan wanted the carters to move to blair house so that she could start redecorating before the inauguration. [laughter] which is, i mean, that would be unprecedented, to the make a family do that. And she certainly did not offer to leave the white house early when it was her turn to move out. She and barbara bush had such a bad relationship that when barbara had a little idea of what the residence looked like, and she had been married to the Vice President for eight years. Shed been rarely invited to parties in the residence. And in his private diary, president george h. W. Bush wrote very bluntly in 1988, he said nancy does not like barbara. Nancy, he said, was jealous of his wife. She feels barbara has the things that she, nancy, doesnt have, and shell never be in barbaras class. So i think its a very complicated relationship between these women, and there was no official tour of the residence until january 11th for the bushs. It was very brief and unsatisfying. [laughter] and be when a negative biography of nancy reagan was published, barbara snapped it up but slapped another cover on the book jacket so no one would know what she was reading [laughter] which is, i mean, shes really very witty and funny, and when i interviewed her, i really enjoyed talking to her. But i did absolutely see her doing Something Like that. So thats a little bit about bad blood. Theres also, you know, some bad blood between barbara bush and Hillary Clinton. Its very interesting, in 1992 there was this vanity fair argue during the campaign. Hillary article during the campaign. Hillary is quoted talking about george h. W. Bushs alleged affair, and she says in the article apparently its all well known in washington. Be and barbara bush, who is incredibly defensive and loyal to her husband, was so upset by this. She had this reporter come up to the west sitting hall, and i interviewed him, and he described how she was sitting there dressed in a very prettily lack suit, but her intentions were very clear, you know . It was the focus of her day was making sure that nobody believed these sick and ugly rumors, she called them. But it really was sinking low, and in her mind in Barbara Bushs mind it was really going against the code of what you can do as first lady. Hillary clinton, of course, was not a typical, you know, candidates wife. And she was much more involved in some of that harsher, you know, campaigning, and she was much more involved than a lot of these women are in policy, obviously. And its very interesting what public statements have been made, you know . In a 2000 interview, four months before her eldest son was elected president , barbara bush went on the record and said laura would not get into Foreign Affairs or controversial subjects. I think she would rather make a positive impact on the country. And then she said im not criticizing mrs. Clinton, but its like oil and and water. Were talking about two different people. I think laura thinks of others, which is very kind of catty and, you know, clearly [laughter] what shes saying there. And then i did talk to a few people who told me that when george h. W. Bush visits when bill clinton visits george h. W. Bush at their kennebunkport come come compound, theres a reason why Hillary Clinton isnt in tow, you know . Theyre just not close. And i think its hard for some of these people to bury the hatchet. These campaigns, as we see now, are very passionate and very personal. And i talked a little bit about the security issue. I did talk to some staffers for this book who really wanted to drill home the idea that theyre more concerned than ever about security in the white house, that more parttime staff is being hired and that they think that the first family is definitely more vulnerable now than theyve ever been. In an effort to cut down on costs, the white house isnt having as many permanent staffers work during state dippers, and this was something that three of dinners, and this was something that three of these resident staffers were passionate about telling me, and i felt that, you know, they really are so loyal to the white house and to just no matter who is president. And so they really wanted to make sure that that point was out there. They feel that this is not something that you should be trying to skimp, you know, or save money on security issues. So anyway, obviously, as we go forward with this election, im actually, i was saying i have to do an afterword for the paperback version of this book, and its supposed to come out in january, so i have to do one for melania and one on bill which is really interesting and challenging to do one for each. So well see. But its going to be its a fascinating time to be talking about the president ial spouse, because i think its changing completely. And no matter who wins, it will be transforming the role probably forever. I would love to take questions if you have any. Okay. [applause] thank you very much. Thank you. This is a question youve actually already answered sort of half of at least. But i think theres some other parts. The question is, has it gotten harder just in general for the first lady or the first spouse to live in the white house . And the security aspects of that have almost certainly gotten worse than they ever were. But im wondering whether the journalism has changed too. The news cycles gotten shorter, and maybe just the increasing involvement of first ladies in policy and so so forth, say starting with nancy reagan and then moving to Hillary Clinton. Whether the job is tougher, i was struck by the comment that its like a prison and just wondering whether thats something that they feel now and that they didnt feel in the past . Beyond even the security aspects of it. Thats a good question, thank you. I think that they feel it more now. I mean, the obamas have had its been kind of debated, but they initially at at least had, you know, more threats. So that does up the security. And the feeling of it being like a prison. But i think for a long time, i mean, betty ford describing her onebedroom apartment in the white house, you know, the feeling of living and not being fully in control of your life and having to give up i your career, i think thats something that will probably change if bill clinton becomes first gentleman, that maybe we will see a first lady allowed to continue a career as long as there are not conflicts of interest. I just think shes a little bit i think Michelle Obama might be more month about the feel more honest about the feeling, although barbara bush really loved living in the white house, and she told me she would move back there in a heartbeat if she didnt have to do anything, you know . [laughter] so it just really fends on the personality. I think laura bush also really enjoyed it. I think its entirely dependent on whos in that position, but i do think the security is only going to get, to be a bigger and bigger issue, which is why it is, i think, a bit concerning that theyre cutting down on the fulltime staff who know whats going on and recognize people and things like that. How about the journalism part . Is it getting tougher to deal with journalists on the part of first ladies or the family in general or not . I dont know the answer to that. I think that they control the message at the white house pretty well. I mean p i think they were i mean be, i think they were able to kind of avoid, you know, she doesnt do many interviews. She does a lot of late night television, ellen and jimmy fallon and things like that, but its very controlled. I actually think this white house is one of the i only was, i was a White House Reporter during the first term of the obama administration, so my experiences with this white house, but when i spoke with people that covered the bush white house, they said it was slightly easier. I think with each administration as technology evolves, they can tweet and facebook and instagram and just kind of control the message and not have to answer reporters questions as much. So i guess i dont just an impression i had that journalists feel more comfortable asking uncomfortable questions. There used to be respect in the past that kind of protected yeah. I dont know, yeah. When i was researching nixon, i was really interested in julie nixon during watergate doing, actually, standing in for her father at a press conference. And one of the reporters said, you know, this is absurd that youre taking questions. Your father should be here answering these questions. And i felt that was very blunt of a reporter. Right. So i dont know. I think that access is not necessarily i mean, there was a time when kennedy and johnson were friends with reporters and had, like, Real Relationships with them. So i mean from a i tend to take the reporters perspective on that. [inaudible] yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Kind of an unfair question, but by the way, the residence was an excellent book. Thank you. Who was your favorite of the modern first ladies . [laughter] you dont have to answer the opposite, but i would like to hear that one. I really think, to me, thats an easy question because i think that betty ford, who was there for the shortest amount of time, two and a half years, you know, is the first lady whos had the biggest impact long term because of the Betty Ford Center and also because she had Breast Cancer in the white house, had a mastectomy and openly talked about it and was very, very honest in interviews, the famous 60 minutes interview where she talked about how when she was a teenager, she would smoke pot. I mean, she was just incredibly honest to a fault in a lot of faces. And i think shes the one. But, i mean, the Betty Ford Center, to actually admit that you have an a addiction problem and then to help other people, i think thats pretty powerful. And eleanor roosevelt, of course, but i dont talk about her that much. How about the ones that youve met that you talked to for this book. Oh, i think Rosalynn Carter is the most honest and blunt of the first ladies, and she talks about still being upset that her husband lost in 1980, and its the biggest regret of her life. I think thats incredible, that this many many years later shes so passionate about it. And i like the honesty of Rosalynn Carter. I was surprised to learn that barbara bush and Marilyn Quayle didnt get along. Oh, yeah. I mean, they really didnt get along at all. I think that some of marilyns friend told me that it was sort of barbara bush had been, you know, her model of first lady was nancy reagan who didnt treat her terribly well, and so she kind of repeated that and doesnt treat Marilyn Quayle that well. Apparently, she was very cold, and it was very hard for the quayles to get invitations to state dinners and very hard for them to get into the residence and things like that. And so, and youll notice the quayles really dont do interviews. Theres not much theyve been really very quiet. And she wouldnt talk to me for this book. But theres a lot of just bad feelings there. Theyre also different generations. Marilyn will was a lot younger and had a young family too. Thank you. Thank you. I think something of great interest to me and Michelle Obamas a prime example is the first lady usually has some Major National initiative. In the case of Michelle Obama, it was getting schools to have gardens, vegetable gardens, and i actually got to plant such a garden with Michelle Obama in 2009. Oh, wow. Just was in the right place at the right time, and it all came together for our organization. Natural partners. But it would be interesting for you if you could comment a little on, you know, say Michelle Obamas National Initiative and how that compares with others and how that tradition got started. I think that i mean, i think of her lets move and her military Family Campaign as the signature issues, but that also an important one, and that ties in with the Healthy Eating because of the planting and the vegetables and the organic and all of that that shes done. I think its a much more Ambitious Campaign than people think. It is. Very senate. It is. And very significant. It is, and shes going up against this huge industry, the food industry. I mean, walmart, mcdonalds, these companies that have lowered their sodium in their foods that are offered because of the lets move campaign and that kind of pressure that shes brought to bear. So i think that it is an ambitious idea. Its interesting because when i interviewed some clinton aides, they thought Michelle Obama hadnt done enough in the white house, they felt she gave up a lot of gains that Hillary Clinton had made. So there is a seasons as one who went to princeton and harvard, maybe she should have done more. That goes to the point youre kind of damned if you do and damned if you dont. Shes done a lot of very good work. But i they are all expected to pick some apolitical issue, and i think hers is surprisingly not controversial, but am establish. Ambitious. I thought it such, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What would be a runnerup . For like the signature campaigns that theyre doing . I actually think, i mean, laura bush came into it with literacy and following in Barbara Bushs footsteps, but then after 9 11 she became the first first lady to do the president ial radio address, she became very outspoke been on supporting women outspoke been on supporting women in afghanistan. So i think she ended up being really consequential in that way, just being an advocate for women in the middle east. And i guess the just say no campaign, but i think of to those campaigns as kind of stilted, like youre expected to do it. I wasnt as interested in the campaigns as in, like, the personalities of these women. Right. But its actually, i think Michelle Obama deserves a lot of credit for lets move and the military Family Campaign, i i agree. Thank you. Okay, this is a little high. You can just say it loudly. Okay. So if Hillary Clinton wins, this will be the First Time Since george h. W. Bush that there wont be Young Children in the white house. And i was kind of wondering if you could speak to how culture, the culture of the white house or particularly in, like, the residence is different when there is younger children. Thats a great question because they all love it when theres younger children. I mean, the butlers especially, and they would and the chefs. I mean, when i talked to the head pastry chef, he talked about how fun it was, you know, to help chelsea and her friends cook, and they gave them cooking lessons. But especially when theres really young kids, they love that. I mean, they describe watching caroline and john kennedy jr. With pitter patter of feet in the hallway, and you read these great oral histories from tish bald ridge and other kennedy aides talking about the dynamic there. Its much lighter. I think Hillary Clinton, shell probably bring her two grandchildren there to visit, so there will be that dynamic to it. When i talked to some social secretaries, they said they think hillary will probably be on the white house tour, you know, that it would want to make sense for her to see where could she put the cribs for the grandchildren. I just dont know if there would be time for her to think about things like that, but its interesting that the expectation is that she would be both president and first lady at the same time, you know, because theres no one to be first lady which is kind of i think theyll hire a really experienced social secretary to do a lot of that stuff yeah. Because bill i read your article about, actually, about oh, you did . Bill clinton. Yeah. Ive been saying for years if Hillary Clinton becomes the president , i really want the inaugural ball tux that bill wears to be in the smithsonian with all of the first ladies dresses. [laughter] yes, absolutely. And we should be be critiquing what hes wearing every day and his hair. [laughter] its only fair. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. The wives of governors who go on to become president , theyve had experience being the wife of a chief executive. I know in the state where i lived before i moved down here, the wife of the incumbent governor was in the public eye always at events, ribbon cuttings, picture in the newspaper every other day, the spouses of the two senators, i couldnt even tell you their names. Is there any difference in the way that wives of governors laura bush, nancy reagan, Hillary Clinton is there any difference in the way they approached the role having somewhat an equivalent experience . When i talked to barbara bush about Hillary Clinton, and i said the clintons, you know, i heard they werent as comfortable in the white house, and maybe its because they werent used to being, you know, surrounded by help and everything, and barbara bush said, are you kidding me . Shes the wife of a governor. She was not, you know, she was used to being, you know, in the public eye. So like you are saying, she was used to a degree of help. And Rosalynn Carter talked about how amy was 3 years old running around in the governors mansion, and tourists were taking photos, so for amy, it wasnt a big deal. The press went crazy when amy went to public school, and they took photos of her. And rosalynn said, you know, to us, it wasnt amy had always grown up in the public eye, and people forget about what its like being in the state, you know, the press in the state is very consumed with the golf and his eye the governor and his wife. And youre right, not the senator and spouses at all, which is interesting. I think theyre definitely better prepared, and i think thats why the obamas as we all know had such an incredibly quick rise to the top. They didnt have any of that sort of experience, and so its, i think its much more difficult for people who havent gone through real campaigns and the fords too. I mean, they described the kids putting their feet up on the coffee table, betty ford saying, you know, thats jeffersons coffee table, get your feet off that. [laughter] so he had only run in one campaign in michigan, and then suddenly hes president , you know . His rise was very swift. So i think it says the women who have been married to a governor have kind of a leg up in that way, yeah. Thanks. Hi. I came in late, so i apologize if you covered this already, but im curious about the staff of the first lady. Whats the size of the staff like . Does it change depending on who it is . Is it 5 or 20 . Is the chief of staff for the first lady a powerful job in the way it is for the president . Well, you know this better than i do. I do not. [laughter] hes a reporter. [laughter] i think that, i mean, tina chen, Michelle Obamas chief of staff, is very powerful, and everything gets routed through her. The east wing right now with the obamas is very controlled. Because Michelle Obama doesnt go into the west wing very often, tina chen is the conduit for her. The staff size has changed a lot. Rosalynn carter was the first lady to work out of the east wing, and i really dont remember the numbers off the top of my head, but i think it was in the 20s, i mean, expanding the staff. I mean, back when it was Jackie Kennedy, the social secretary, the chief of staff, the press secretary thats a relatively new thing too, and theres also a deputy press secretary. So its, you know, its certainly more than 20, i think, and then you also have calligraphers wrote work out of the east wing office. But as the role of the first lady has become bigger and bigger, the staff has gotten bigger. Hillary clintons staff works in the west wing, also the Old Executive Office building. I mean, the staff has kind of it really depends on who the first lady is how they want to structure it. This white house is more traditional in that, you know, its very much east wing. Michelle obama rarely goes into the west wing, im told. And so i think the if bill clinton if the clintons move in, you know, theres going to be a whole revamping of the east wing staff, and probably it will be even more sidelined, you know . Because the east wing is always kind of looked down upon by west wing. I think theres a little bit of a battle of the sexes going on still, you know, mostly male, mostly female. So i think if bill clinton is in this position be, he will not really be involved in flowers and guest lists which will make the east wing even less of a force, you know . But i dont know if that really since we are in a bookstore and we are on cspan and even though im a democrat, i would like to give a shout out to laura bush for her promotion of the National Book festival here in washington, d. C. Which i think has been tremendous and has really carried on after her. No, absolutely. Yeah, shes done a lot of good. I was surprised to learn that shes very, shes tougher than a lot of people might think. I mean, shes been through a lot. And another thing that i think bill clinton would be particularly good at and people dont think about is how the first lady is really the consoler in chief, you know . These are the women who after 9 11, for instance, go to Memorial Services is and really have to be kind of emotional supports for the country sort of the rock for their husbands too. And you just think of all the horrific things that they have to do, and i think people dont necessarily give someone like laura bush enough credit for that, for what she went through as first lady. That was a really traumatic time to be first lady. I think thisll be the last question. Oh, the pressures on. [laughter] i wanted to ask a question about washington, d. C. And the first ladys relationship or the first familys relationship to washington d. C. I mean, weve seen various, you know, news stories about outings that some of the president s have had and other havent really related to d. C. At all. So id like to have your take on that. Yeah. I mean, if you talk to the clinton supporters, theyll say, you know, if the clintons come back, itll be great because bill clinton used to on quiet weekends go to the smithsonian, you know, gallery of art and relax, you know, that hes very much a fan of washington and the culture and the restaurants and all of that. And they know it very well. And that donald trump would be much less kind of wanting to stay i mean, people even talk about him not living in the white house which i cant imagine [laughter] i dont think that would go over very well, most people wont like that. But i think there is, yeah, its a very complicated relationship. There are Great Stories about pat nixon and Hillary Clinton both putting on baseball caps at different decades, obviously, but walking through the streets, you know, around the white house or in georgetown just trying to go out for a walk and escape the sort of klaus phobic life claustrophobic life in the white house. The obamas do go out to dinner. Michelle obama, every time she goes to some hot spot be, i think there has been some sense that theyve, you know, done some good for the food scene in the city, especially her outings. But its a really complicated relationship that they have with the town, and i think that the clintons probably because they are so experienced and know washington so well, i think they would probably be going out a fair amount, but i dont know. I dont know. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] booktv brings you 48 hours of nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Here are some of our programs this weekend. Tonight at 8 p. M. Eastern, booktv talks with the new librarian of congress, carla a hayden carla hayden. Shes the first woman and africanamerican to hold the position. Then at ten, after words. New york times president and Ceo Mark Thompson looks at what he calls the erosion of public language in his booker enough said whats gone wrong with the language of politics, which examines the change in language from fdr and churchill to donald trump. Hes interviewed by arianna huffington, founder of the huffington post. Politics, firstly, has changed in very substantial ways. And the kind of natural shape of politics based on class and very clear ideology has become more disrupted. And all over the western world you can feel the big, traditional Political Parties, the mainstream parties under pressure. Sunday at 10 a. M. Eastern, booktv is live from the brooklyn book festival. The festival is the largest free literary event in new york city featuring national and International Literary stars and emerging authors. Featured authors and topics include a discussion on economics with marc lamont hill, politics with sarah jaffe, fred kaplan on digital privacy, ralph nader looks at Political Parties and elections, military and war with molly crabapple, and ed young takes a look at viruses. Go to booktv. Org for the complete weekend schedule. On february 3rd, 1971, jackie visited the white house for the First Time Since her husbands assassination. And there was a private visit. She would only go if no one knew about it. She didnt want any press there. And she went for the unveiling of the official portraits, her portrait and her husbands portrait, and she brought a along 13yearold caroline and 10yearold john kennedy jr. And they had a very awkward dinner with the nixons where john kennedy jr. Spilled his milk and, apparently, lightened the mood considerably because it was very difficult for her to go back. I mean, there were a lot of happy memories, but it was also very sad for her. And there are wonderful letters at the Kennedy Library that are just incredible that john kennedy jr. Wrote to pat nixon and president nixon saying i can never thank you more for showing us the white house, i really liked everything about it. And he talks about sitting on his the lincoln bedroom bed where his father had slept and making a wish that he would do well in school, which i think is very sweet. And so its kind of a touching thing that they went for this visit and that she went back, that jackie went back when pat nixon invited her to. These women were rivals in 1960, during the 1960 campaign, and pat nixon even wanted a recount, she was so upset at the results. So this was not an easy relationship. The most poignant letter though came from jackie herself, written in her signature spidery handwriting on her sky blue stationery can you imagine the gift you gave us to return to the white house privately with my little ones while they are still young enough to rediscover their childhood, he wrote. The day i always dreaded turned out to be one of the most precious be ones i have spent with my children, may god bless you all. I think that shows the humanity among these women, that they do go through so much and they do understand intimately what its like to live in the white house and to go through, you know, the sort of security concerns and painful loss that jackie went through. Its something that pat nixon could understand and kind of sympathize with. During the 1976 president ial campaign, roz run carter was on the Rosalynn Carter was on her way to pay her respects to Lady Bird Johnson. The day before their meeting, jimmy carters embarrassing playboy interview was published where he talked about committing adultery in his heart many times and Something Else he said many that very embarrassing interview was where he talks about how nixon and johnson both lied and cheated and distorted the truth. And merely mentioning johnson and nixon in the same breath at that time so close to watergate was agnat ma to democrats anathema to democrats. So heres Rosalynn Carter in this awkward position of paying her respects to Lady Bird Johnson, you know, very shortly after this article ran. And rosalynn turned to an aide who was very close with the johnsons and said what does mrs. Johnson think about the interview, what should i say about it . And the aide said, you dont say anything, mrs. Carter. Youre a southern lady just like mrs. Johnson, it wont be brought up. Just be yourself. And it wasnt. So, i mean, these women, theres a code that, you know, Lady Bird Johnson knew better than anyone what it was like to deal with a husband who fended and upset people at times. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. Heres a look at the finalists for this years National Book award for nonfiction. Retired army colonel Andy Bacevich identifies the events he believes led to americas increased presence in the middle east in americas war for the greater middle east. In the firebrand and first lady, Patricia Bell scott recalls the friendshipbetween pauli scott and eleanor roosevelt. And time magazines southeastern writer adam Senior Writer adam cohen in imbeciles. Other final its for this years National Book award in nonfiction include arli russell for her report on the alienation felt in strangers in their own land. In nothing ever dies, the vietnam war. Or and kathy oneills weapons of math destruction argues that big data and computer models can be used to criminate against people. Our to discriminate against people. Our look at this years finalists continues with a look at the enslavement of native americans in the other slavery. American history professor [inaudible] documents the influence of the haitian revolution on abolition in the slaves cause. And finally, Heather Ann Thompson reports on the 1971 uprising at new yorks attica correctional facility in blood in the water. Watch the announcement of the National Book awards lye on cspan2 live on cspan2 on november 16th. Many of these authors have appeared or will be appearing on booktv. You can watch them on our web site, booktv. Org. [inaudible conversations]