Rev enough agents checking expense accounts. Want government to go back to he tell bills to fine out who was with you . These are real quotes. Now, if the kens were prepared to do this to stop a steel price hike, what they do to keep the presidency in their hands . Some of you know i worked for Robert Kennedy. No public figure i admired more. But this this dark side. They get away with it but people know that something is up. One of those underground things that know. Its all kind of underground. Last, 1968. What happens . So here are two notions. If theres no war in vietnam, then Richard Nixons most powerful argument for the presidency i know the world, i know the soviet union, i can bring peace to vietnam is irrelevant, and the republicans can find somebody who could actually win elections, say the governorship of california by a million votes. Reagan made a very lame last minute bid for the nomination. Take away the vietnam war, nixons strong point, and i realize the idea of a firstterm person president is absurd. But its been known to happen. And on the democratic side, absent the vietnam war, who is the most ardent peace candidate . Within the Democratic Party . Its hubert humphrey, who before vietnam and before his imprisonment by Lyndon Johnson, was a with disarmament advocate and was behind the peace corps. So i set up a humphrey and reagan election and i dont tell you who wins because i didnt want to figure that out. And theres an Interesting Exchange between john and Jacqueline Kennedy at the end of the book. Some stuff that is to come. And ill again if you dont buy the book youll never find out. , so, to conclude, this exercise, which as i say some people find foot winging, toyed a old farced word, is useful. One, i ought to convince people not just this example but countless others how much life is contingent. How much fate plays a role, and how much a sense of humility, therefore, is useful, particularly in leader, in the knowledge they cant anticipate every event. They dont know when the black swan is going to show up and they have to at least calculate the possibility their assumptions may be undone, and second thing is, character matters in a leader, and by character, i dont mean private personal morale. I mean what is the temperment. Are they personalizing issues . Are they looking for other as many different sources of information as possible . Are they willing to say i have to rethink my assumptions . And i think its if nothing else, the work ive done over the last few convinced me the way we cover our Political Choice process is completely irsvelte irrelevant because we dont know how to deal with that, and dealing with it in history, you say it really does matter. What kind of person is in leadership because the wrong kind of person can lead to profoundly different results. And with that im going to stop and let you ask your questions. Thank you for listening. [applause] because we want to honor cspan, please use the mic. And we need a common understanding of the meaning of a question. A question. So not a proposed to after the spanish armada loss. So i respect this. The more questions we get the better. In your imagine, would you imagine a little more of the future of lbj had kennedy lived . I gather you assume he would have had a political death if he lived. Yes. But what would he would have lowes his base in the next five years . Actually, are Doris Goodwin was my adviser, who has knowledge about johnson. Dont make him just the bad guy. There was this other side. So actually in this bike, Lyndon Johnson goes back to texas, becomes president of his alma mater and plays a critical roll role in passing the Voting Rights act so theres a redemption for him in this. Whether i theres a limit even to my wonkiness, so i didnt decide, well, i wonder if he could have run for the senate. But i didnt do that. He has a place of honor. You think kennedy would have won the 64 election . Assuming the ran against goldwater or member else . Thats what i you may have come in late. I covered that. Im sorry. Inflames i didnt hear myself, im pretty sure i covered that. I if goldwater is the nominee itch George Romney got the nomination it would have been tough because he the whole southern base of the Democratic Party is gone and romney could have been competitive, but the way he did run for president , said he could have selfdestructed every bit as much in 64 and 68. Thank you. First off, its been a pleasure being here and watching ive been watching you sense i was a kid thank you for that. Really. They had television back then, did they . Yes, they did. But ive also been enjoying your alternate historiness recent years. Do youve do you have any plans in the future . No. Im done. The reason is i would become the georgie jessle of alternate history. What do you think would have happened if the interviews for that one would be fairly tough. No. I enjoy this process, but because my standard is one plausibility, two, a very tiny twist of fate, and, three, consequentiality. So if somebody said if dukakis beat bush in 88. I would say, yeah, thats really interesting. So thats why. Maybe some day i will return to this, but there are a lot of good stories about them. A lot of twists and turns. But other people have mined them. Certainly phillip roth is a real novelist, andll you know phillip k. Dick . Wrote a book called man in a high castle which premises a nazi victory in world war ii. Roosevelt, he says, was killed, john nance gardner was the president and he just failed so badly the country couldnt fight a war. Im done. The next book is a genuine novel, im making it all up. And perhaps well gather here in a couple of years if i pull this awesome but i appreciate the question. Thank you. I think you mentioned you thought oswald was the lone gunman. I did. I guess its a weird question because its instead of why, i should say why not what do you think that . Seems leak the majority of americans think there was some conspiracy. Now because they saw jfk and oliver stone i do blame hem because he have a one country, that must have happened. Let me make a different point. I dont choose to relet gait relitigate it. I duck the question in the book because it would eave overwhelmed the book. Its based on a fair amount of reading. Let me ask you a different question. Whoa do most americans believe it was a conspiracy and why did Robert Kennedy raise that question . This is the conclusion, because the minute kennedy was souths the first thing bobby did was call the head of the cia and say, did one of your guys do that . And he sent an investigator, organized crime, teamsters, never found anything. This is what i think. If people look, if some day some guy walks in with evidence and says, it was the teamsters, organized crime, the exiles, it was castro, who certainly had a motive. Kennedy tried to kill him several times. Rogue agents in the intelligence. Roger stone, the political black arts guy. The republican, going to dallas on november 22nd to, quote, prove Lyndon Johnson killed him. What i think is this. It doesnt seem right that so consequential an act could have come at the hands of so insignificant a twerp as as polled. A loser, wifebeater, couldnt keep a job. Went to the soviet union, came back, was thinking about going again, delusions of grandure, did try to kill Major General walker with the save rifle he killed john kennedy later. Jackie kennedy said, how could that have been . An insignificant guy like this guy, a nothing. Its much more satisfying, if thats the right word, that kennedy was killed for a reason. Wanted to end the cold war. Castro wanted to get even with him for trying to kill him. Organized crime, which was furious at his at bobbys efforts to crush them. And heres the point. Bobby knew better than anybody. Fro the rackets commitey and organized crime and attorney general, there were tons of people who would have revelleed at John Kennedys death. So it makes sense to say, yeah, a lot of people had motives to kill him. Doesnt mean they did. One other point. Oswald fits the model of almost every other assistant and wouldbev assist sin. The same personality. Richard pavlec, blew up kennedy. The guy that almost killed roosevelt. The killer of president garfield, leon mckinleys assassin. A great scrabble name. All of them, loners, mentally unstable, delusions of grandeur, crazy people. I guess i could add Arthur Bremner and mark david chapman, john hinkley. Thats the model. The only exception in American Life was lincoln. That was a conspiracy. But you know, doesnt mean thats where i come from. Very interesting. Since you announced youre ending your alternate history, we cant let you off that easy. Your become is about about ticks and the 6s 0s, what do you see if with a kennedy for example, Martin Luther king, charles manson, whatever. Theres a seen here where kennedy meets the beatles, by the way. Ahead to do that. Which was his favorite beat until. There you are. John, i hope. I hope john but he had very conventional musical tastes so probably was paul. But by the way, in real life, the beatles play a significant role in this story because many people and im one of them believe that the beatles appearance in america in january of 1964 was the first time we let ourselves have some fun. I remember being in front of a tv set in a dorm and they came on and it was like, okay, we can play a little bit. Look, if im right, its a less violent time, i dont know how to do what you want to do. Clearly there would have been somebody who wanted to kill Martin Luther king. Somebody tried before he was killed. I think in general, its a yeah, thats what i midwest by woodstock but not altamont. And season of the witch does not come. Thats what i mean. What would you envision for Robert Kennedy . Thats a good question. Not just a good one but one id like to answer. I dont think he could have run for president in 1968, because he would have spent eight years as kennedys coo. The second term theirs is something that was speculated on. Bobby would become secretary of defense. Move macma anywhere a to state, get rid of rusk, and if historians are right that kennedy wanted to end the cold war and make deals and stay out of vietnam can he had to have a secretary of defense who clearly was speaking for him. And somebody who was tough enough to look at the generals and say, no. So thats i cant imagine how you in the scene i have a texas senator who get ease selected. George Herbert Walker bush who says we dont do dynasties in america. You can say if theres theres no nixon presidency no watergate, although sit certainly possible another president could do other things. The fact that some stuff doesnt happen, doesnt mean other bad stuff doesnt happen. So thats where i am on that. Thank you. Okay. If were done with the questions, thank you very much for coming. Buy if you want. [applause] schlessinger, jr. And ted sorenson. This is about an hour. Im so delighted youre here and looking forward to this conversation. The first question is, 50 years after his death, president kennedy has an 80 Approval Rating among the american public. Which is nothing to sneeze at in this contested age. Is the public wrong . Well, you know, first of all, its 85 . Its gone up. And the result of the recent government shutdown, i suspect if you did it today, it might be 90 . I dont think its wrong in the sense that people in this country want to feel better about government. They want to feel better about the countrys future. And i think thats what Kennedy Still gives people. You know, they compare him to other subsequent president s. Johnson, with vietnam. Nixon, with watergate. Jimmy carter, one term, the first bush, one term, the second bush, leaves under a cloud. And so they looked to two president s to give them better hope and feeling about the government. First of all, Kennedy Reagan in this poll, which kennedy had 85 approval, reagan had 74 . So, people remember the kennedy he put a man on the moon, that he called his administration the new frontier. He is frozen in our minds at the aim age of 46, and nobody could quite imagine if he walked into this room tonight, he would be 96 years old. Its 50 years later. But he is still young, vital, energetic, an exciting personality. And people are attached to that, and i think my teacher was richard hoff steader, a great historian, and he once said to me that america is the only country in the world that believes it was born perfect and strives for improvement. And his is what innocence kennedy gives people to this day. Id say one other thing. Which is that the kennedys are americans dynasty. Not the roosevelts or the bushes. And what people find so appealing about them is on the one hand they represent the fulfillment of the american dream. The irish catholic, who became fabulously rich and famous, you see, and on the other hand, so stark horse, that the oldest brother killed in world war ii, the oldest sister killed in a plane crash in france in 1948. The president assassinated. Bobby kennedy assassinated. The president s son killed in a senseless plane crash in off cape cod. Jacqueline kennedy died in her early 60s of cancer. Ted kennedy, the horror at chappaquiddick where the young woman died in the accident. So they identify also with the suffering that the family has gone through, because everybody worked through some kind of difficult any their lives. So its the combination on the one hand of their fame and fortune and on the other hand their suffering, their tragedy. But they are really the dynastic family. Explain the publics fascination. You tell us the truth and we have had a range of kennedy biographies, and then there was the tearing him down and the exposure of his womanizing and the concealment of his Health Problems. But i left this book feeling this was pretty positive portrait and my tickaway is you paint the picture of a president would came in with a lot of faith in his advisers and was willing to devery did he ever to them and that led to the bay of pigs, but by the time of the cuban missile crisis he was responsible for his own decisions and resisted irrational action and saved the world from nuclear annihilation. He brought in what the david hallber symptom called the best and the brightest. He wanted intelligent and accomplished people to come in and be around him. He didnt know them. The only one he knew was, of course, his brother, bobby, who he made attorney general, and somebody said to him, you know, its not a great idea to appoint your brother attorney general. He really doesnt have significant legal experience that would qualify him for the job. And kennedy said, i need someone i can put my feet up with and talk to candidly, because he did not know dean rusk. He didnt know bob mcnamara. He didnt know stu douglas, who was eisenhowers secretary of the treasury, and bundy, who became his National Security adviser, he knew him, but not very well from their associations, and the harvard board of whatever its called. And Harvard University faculty . Right. Youre hearing from a longserving academic. Anyway, he was comfortable with Robert Kennedy. And i must say the thing you never have are the many conversations, i think, he and bobby had behind the scenes. Theyre not tape recorded, theyre not on paper. But people can detect that theyd come into the room and theyd meet with the cabinet or theyd meet with the many advisers, and bobby would drop the hammer or the dime on somebody, and jack would sit there with a slight smile on his face because bobby was doing his bidding, and my guess is they work out what bobby was going to say before hand. So he was very comfortable with bobby. I call bobby the advisor in chief. He didnt have a chief of staff but Bobby Kennedy did it. Just become more directly to your point, he grew in office. He learned that you cant just take at face value what advisers were telling him. He was badly burned by the bay of pigs experience. Walked around afterwards saying how could i have been so stupid . And he saw Charles Degaulle at the end of may, shortly after that, and degaulle said to him, get the best advice you can, the smartest people you can possibly bring into your administration. But at the end of the day you must make the decision. Youre the one who has to decide what is appropriate and wise, and Kennedy Remembered what hari truman says, the buck stops here. So he grew and he was skeptical and he had greatest tension with the joint chiefs of staff. He battled with them over the issue of nuclear weapons. They as you say, both president kennedy and Bobby Kennedy come off much better than the joint chiefs and many of the advisers. They were pragmatic, cared about politics and argued for military restraint, and both the joint chiefs and people like bundy and macin marry mcna mara tarnished their reputation biz their performance in vietnam. Why was kennedy better than his advisers . Well,. Kennedy was deeply troubled by the fact i still teachm in washington, and these young people 20 years old, they dont have a clue as to hugh frightened and concerned people were in the 50s and 60s about the possibility, indeed even the likelihood, that there could be a nuclear war. Kennedy at one point said to somebody, in private, id rather my kids be red than dead. He never could have said that in public. But what worried him so much was the fact that the chiefs, when he came into office, that local commanders in the field, if there were an incident with the soviets, that they could unleash a nuclear weapon, and bundy said to him, we need to get the Nuclear War Plan and we need to increase the controls over whether and when these weapons will be used. Bundy called up the generals, the pentagon, in charge of the Nuclear War Plan, and said, we want to see it.