this may be a slight exaggeration, but once the current school system, schools are run by women for rules. again, an early statement. and a lot of boys feel that way. one of the saddest, ever read, a group of educators, researchers, why did you leave school, what did you drop out. there was one little boy who said, but no one wanted me there. a lot of boys feel that way. its operating. someone made it clear them. but there is so much going on in our school, even at the level of what is assigned, friendly and not so friendly toward boys. >> you can once this and other programs online at booktv.org. examining the political ideology of anarchism from its history and early proponents of the author's thoughts on its current usage and practicality. this hour and ten minute program begins now here on book tv. [applause] >> it is hardly a secret -- secret that the terms of political discourse are not exactly models of precision. .. for reasons that are pointed out. it has been not only said it, but varied use, but also quite extreme abuse sometimes a bitter enemy, sometimes unfortunately by pete who who pulled this mannerheim. so much so -- so much of the variation in abuse that it risks a simple characterization. in fact, humiliate the to address the question posed this evening, what is anarchism is to identify leading ideas that animate at least major currents of the rich and complex and often contradict her traditions of anarchist thought and anarchist action. i think this is the book purge can start with remarks by the perceptive important anarchist intellectual and to this, rudolf rocker. he saw anarchism not as a self enclosed osha says timothy six answer to all the multifarious question and problems of him in life, but rather is a definite trend in historic development of mankind, which drives for the free unhindered unfolding above the individual and social forces in life. from the 1930s. these can't are not really original. he derives from the unlike men's and the early romantic. and rather similar word one of the founders of classical liberalism among many other cheap describes the leading principle of his at the absolute essential importance of human development at its richest diversity. at the phrase on stuart mill took a epigraph to his own liberty. it follows to nat and institutions can stream section and development are illegitimate unless of course they can somehow justify themselves. you find a similar conception widely. so for example, adam smith, everyone has read the opening paragraphs of wealth of nations where he extols the wonders of the division of labor. but not many people have gotten further inside to read his bitter condemnation of the division of labor in his insistence that in any civilized society the government will have to intervene to prevent it because it will destroy personal integrity and essential human right will turn people into creatures as ignorant as a human can be. it is not too easy to find that passage. whatever the reason may be, if you look at the scholarly center scholarly edition of the bicentennial edition, it not even listed in the index. but it's one of the most important passages in the book. in these terms, anarchism is a tenant in human development this seeks to identify structures of hierarchy, domination, authority and others that constrain human development. and then it seeks to subject them to a reasonable challenge to justify yourself, demonstrate your legitimate and maybe in in some special circumstances or conceivably in principle. if you can't meet that challenge, which is the usual case, the structure should be dismantled and if anything brightly at, not just dismantled but reconstructed from below. the ideals that found expression during the enlightenment anorectic era foundered on the shoals of rising industrial capitalism, which is completely antithetical to them. rocker argues quite possibly that they remain alive in the libertarian socialist traditions. these range pretty widely. they range from anti-bolshevik marxism that people like paul monica and others, including it in our case symbolism that reached at peak at achievement in the revolutionary. spain in 1936 and is well to remember that despite its substantial achievements and successes, it was crashed by a combined force of fascism, communism amid western aid. they had differences, but they agreed this had to be crashed with the effort of free people to control the rail lines had to be crushed before they turn to their petty differences, which recalled its bitter civil war. the same tendencies reach further to worker controlled enterprises. they're springing up in large part in the old rust belt and united state and northern mexico. they reach their greatest development in the vast country and gain. mondragon is partly a reflection of the achievements of the long complex perched -- tradition of anarchism and partly comes out of christian anarchists versus. there is also included in this general tend the are quite substantial and cooperative movements that exist in many parts of the world. and i think it also comes with a sacred part of feminist and human rights activism. entire, all of this sounds a truism. why should anyone defend illegitimate structures? no reason of course. that perception is correct. it really is truism. anarchism ought to be called truism. truisms have some merit. one of them is the merit of being true, unlike most political discourse. this particular truism belongs to an interesting category of principles. the principles are not only universal, but doubly universal. they are universal in that they're almost universally accepted and universal in that they almost universally rejected and practice. there are many of these good for example, the general principle that we should apply to ourselves the same standards we do to others, if not harsher ones, a few at a checked. if you would practice or more specific policy proposals like democracy, promotion or the humanitarian intervention professed generally reject the contract is almost universally. this truism is the same. the truism i should challenge and coerced institutions of all kinds demand they justify them elves, dismantling reconstruction. if they do not come easy to say, but not easy to ask ask on in practice. while proceeding with the miller thought of what rocker again, anarchism seeks to free labor from economic text dictation into free society from ecclesiastical or political guardianship. i do and not, opening the way to an alliance of free groups of men and women, they found cooperative labor and a planned administration of being in the interest of the community. rocker was an anarchist activist as well as political thinker. he goes on to call on the workers organizations, other popular organizations to create quoting not only the ideas, but also the facts of the features of within the current society. that's an injunction that goes back to the command. one traditional anarchist slogan is no god, no master. a phrase that is the title of his valuable collection of anarchist classics. it's fair to understand the phrase no god and the terms i just quoted from rocker opposition to ecclesiastical guardianship. individual beliefs are different matter. it's no matter of concern was for the development of thought in action. that leaves the door open to the lively and impressive tradition of religious anarchism, for example, during the days very impressed with catholic workers movement. the phrase no matter. different. it refers not to individual beliefs, but to these social relation. a relation of subordination and dominant that anarchism, if taken me, seeks to dismantle and rebuild from below unless they can somehow be a harsh burden of establishing an legitimate view. now it departed from to listen. in fact, too ample controversy. in particular, right at this point, the american brand of what's called libertarian and done departs very sharp way from the libertarian tradition accepts strongly advocate the support nation of working people to the masters of the economy and furthermore this objection of everyone to the restrict it, disciplined investor features of market. these are topics for pursuing. take them up later if you like, but i'll put aside here. also recommending to you the question about her and together some way the energies of the young libertarians left and right as indeed sometimes done. for example, if done in a quite important more of the valuable, theoretical and practical work of economist and david ellerman and the mothers. anarchism of course it seems he opposed to the state bought the same time advocating planned administration of the in the interest of the community. beyond not, broader federation of self-governing communities that are places. well, in the real world is today, the same dedicated anarchists are opposed to the state often supports the powder to protect people and society in the years of self from the ravages of pot and traded private capital. it takes a venerable anarchist journal like freedom that goes back to 1886 socialist anarchism by supporters after pocketing. if you open pages, you'll find much of it is devoted to defending rights of people, the environment, society, often by invoking state power like regulation of the environment perceived d. and health regulation in the work place. there is no contradiction here is intense. people live in a fair and door in this world and not the world that we imagine and all the means available should be used to safeguard and benefit them, even if the long-term goal is to displace these devices and construct preferable alternatives. in discussing this, i've sometimes used an image that comes from the workers movement discussed an interesting work by maybury lewis. they speak of the images that widening the floors of the cage. the cage is existing coercive dictation that can be widened by committee popular struggle to have an effect only over many years and you can extend the image beyond. think of the cage of coercive state institutions as a kind of protection from savage beast roaming outside, namely the predatory comes a supported capitalist institutions dedicated to the principle of private gain, power, domination that the interest of the community at most a footnote may be revered and rhetoric. but in part to an even anglo-american law. it's also worth remembering anarchists condemned really existing state, not vision of unrealized democratic dream such as government of, by and for the people. they bitterly oppose the rule of what the koonin hunt called the bureaucracy, which she predict good 50 years in advance and be a the most savage human creations. they also oppose parliamentary systems that are instruments of class rule. the contemporary united states, for example, which is not a the. it's a plutocracy and easy to demonstrate the majority of the population has no influence over policy. and even though the income while the scale, you get more and more influence. people get what they want established by academic political science, but familiar to everyone who looks at the way the world works. a truly democratic system would be quite different. it would have the carrot or of putting an online different groups of men and women is found cooperative labor in a planned at venice ration of things in the interest of the community. in fact, that is not too remote from one version of the main stream democratic ideal. one version stress that. i'll return to others. take for example the leading americans social philosopher of the 20th century, john dewey. his major concerns for democracy and education. pay attention to his ideas and his conception of the, illegitimate structures of coercion must be dismantled and that includes domination by business for private profit through private control thinking, land, industry, reinforced by command of the price, press agents, other means of publicity and propaganda. he recognized from his ilk quoting that power today resides in control of the means of production, exchange, publicity, transportation and communication. whoever owns them, was the life of the country, even if democratic forms remain. until these institutions are in the hands of the public, politics will remain the shadow cast by big business on society, very much what we see around us in fact. but it is important to do we went beyond calling for some form of public control that could take many forms. he went beyond a free and democratic society. he wrote that workers should be the masters of their own in estoril fee, not too was rented by employers. not directed by state authorities. that goes right back to the leading ideas of classical liberalism articulated by smith, others and turning to education, to be held that it is illiberal and immoral to train children to work not freely and intelligently, but for the sake of the work earned to achieve test scores, for example in which case her dvd is not free because it's not freely participated in and quickly forgotten as all of us know from iraq's area. so he proceeded to conclude that industry must be changed from a few jealous chick to a democratic social order and educational they should be designed to encourage creativity, expiration, independent, cooperative work, exactly the opposite of what is happening today. well, these ideas lead to a vision of society based on workers control of project and institutions, the link to community control within the framework of freezes each in federal or can nation and the general style of thought that include, of course along with many anarchist others, too. gd calls, socialism england. the anti-bolshevik marxism. the current development that just for example, the participatory economics and politics of michael albert, stephen sholem and others along with important work in theory and is by the late seymour mehlman, his assist the and many others in notably pair of it is a very valuable contribution worker owned enterprise and cooperatives. not just talk, the actual taking place. going back to duty, and he was as american as apple pie to fire the old cliché, right in the mainstream american has korean culture. in fact, all of these ideas and developments are deeply rooted in the american tradition in american history, a fact which is kind of surprised, but is very obvious when you look into it. when you pursue these questions coming you enter into an important terrain of inspiring, often hitters struggle. ever since the time of the industrial revolution, which was around here in the midnight century. the first serious scholarly work study of the industrial work in those years 90 years ago, still very much worth reading reviews the hideous working conditions imposed on formerly independent craftsman and immigrants and farmers as well as the so-called factory gross, young women dropped from the farms to work in the textile mills around boston. he mentions that in reviews that, focuses attention on the manaus which he calls the degradation suffered by the industrial worker, the loss of status and independent, which could not be kids old, even where there is occasionally a material improvement and he focuses on the radical cap is social revolution in which sovereignty and economic affairs from the community as a whole into the keeping of a special class of masters often remote from production. a group alien to the producers and where she is pretty convincingly that for every protest against machine industry impregnation, there can be found 100 protest against the new power of capitalist production and its discipline. in other words, workers were struggling in striking not just for brad, but for roses in the traditionalist token of the workers communities and organizations. they were struggling for dignity and independence and for their rights as free men and women. her journals are interesting is a rich and lively labor press written by working people, artisans from bath 10. factory gross sum of farms. in these journals, they condemned what they called the lasting influence of monarchical prince goes on democratic soil, which will not be overcome until they who work in the mills will on them. it's a slogan of the massive night of labor and sovereignty will return to free and independent producers. then they will no longer be menials for the humble subjects of the absentee owner, slaves and mr. a sense of the word who toil for their mass to. rather they will regain it that is as free americans to defend. the capitalist revolution instituted a crucial change from price to wage. it's very important. when a producer so with this product for a price, he retained his person. but when he came to sell his labor, he's solid and else. i'm quoting from the press. that's a big difference. he lost his dignity as a person as he became a wage slave to use the common term at the. 160 years ago, a group is the workers repeated the common view that a daily wage was equivalent to use a very and they weren't warned% of the day might come when wage slaves full text far forget what is due to man had asked to the poor in assist enforced on them either necessity and in opposition to their feline i've independent and suffers back that they hoped would be fired if. these were very popular notions in the mid-19 century. in fact, so popular theories logan of the republican party. you can embed in editorials of "the new york times." they may come back, let out. labor activists of the time mourned bitterly often of what they call denise. at the age for making walls, forgetting all by itself. as a new spirit of the h. 150 years ago. in sharp reaction to this meaning. , there were quite enormous and active rising with the working people and radical farmers. radical farmers began in texas, spread through the midwest and much of the country. it was of course an agricultural country then. he was for the most significant democratic merits in american history. they were dedicated to solidarity, mutual aid. they were crushed by force. we have a very vital neighbor history compared to other countries. but it is a battle that is not over. far from over. setbacks from violent repression. they're all apologists are the radical revolution of wage slavery and they have an argument yet they argue the worker should indeed glory and a system of free contracts voluntarily undertaken. there was an answer to that 200 years ago by shelley in his great poem, masque of anarchy, written after the massacre in english, manchester and british calvary vertically attacked a peaceful gathering of tens of thousands of people here first major example of huge nonviolent protest and the reaction of the state authorities to what they were calling for parliamentary reform. so shelley wrote that we know what slavery is. just two or can have such a just keeps life and day-to-day in your lens, estimates for the tyrant is to tell, choose to be saved and sold them to hold no strong control over your own, the be all that others tv. that is slavery. that is so working people and independent farmers were struggling again. the artisans and factory gross struggle for dignity and independence and freedom might very well have known shelley's word. observers at the time noted they were highly illiterate. they were crying it is standard works of english literature. this is before mechanism and wage slavery, the wage system ended the days, at least curtailed the days of independence, high culture and security. before that, where he points out a workshop might be what he called the journeyman would hire boys to read to them. these are social businesses with many opportunities for reading this fashion of mutual improvement in along with the factory gross, the artisans utterly condemned the attack on their culture. the same is true in england, in that light conditions were much harder. there's actually a great book about this by jonathan rose called the intellectual life of the british working class. some monumental study of the reading habits of the working class of what we think of as a keynesian and good. he contrasts what he calls the passionate pursuit of knowledge by proletarian autodidact with the pervasive philistine of the british the. actually, i am old enough to remember residues remain among working people in new york in the 1990s who are deeply immersed in the high culture of the day. it is another battle that may have receded. i don't think it us. well, i mentioned that do we and american workers and farmers on one version of democracy with very strong libertarian element. at the dominant version has been all radically different. it's most instructive expression is a progressive end of the spectrum, mainstream spec. so that is among people who are good. woodrow wilson, if dr, canon eight, liberals. here's a few representative quote from icons of the liberal intellectual establishment on democratic theory. the public are not somehow with writers that have to be put in their place. decisions must be in the hands of an intelligent minority of response bollman, namely us. we have to be protected from the trampling roar of the bewildered herd out there. you heard us have a function in a democratic society. they are supposed to lend their weight every few years to a choice among the comfortable man. apart from that, their function is to be spec taters, not participants in action. all of this is for their own good that we should not come to democratic dogmatism is about men being the best judges of their own interests. they are not. they are like young children. we're the best judges of their own interests. so the attitudes and opinions have to be controlled for their own benefit. we have to regiment their mind away in army regiments bodies and we have to discipline the institutions responsible for what they called the in.nation of the young's was coming universities, churches. if we can do this, we can get back to the good old days. this is complaints about the 60s. we can get back to the good old days when truman had been able to govern the country with the cooperation of a relatively long number of wall street lawyers and bankers and then we'll have true democracy. these are quotes from icons of liberal ravishment. walter let them come tattered béarnaise, carol costello, founder of modern political science. samuel huntington, trilateral commission which saps the carter administration. well, the conflict between these conceptions of democracy go as far back, back to the earliest modern democratic revolution in the 17th century england. that time, as you know there was a war breaching between supporters of the king and supporters of the parliament. that's the civil war we read about. but there is more. the men who call themselves none of this quality, they were told that the rabble who didn't want to be ruled by either change our parliament. like the spanish workers and 1830s six, neither side. they wanted to be ruled as if they had a literature and i wanted to be ruled by countrymen like ourselves that now our wants. there will never be a good world one night and gentlemen make us was that are chosen for fear and do better process and do not know the people soars. at a 17th century england. the essential nature of this conflict, which has far from ended was captured nicely by thomas jefferson in his later years when he has serious can and about both the quality and fate of the democratic experiment. he made a distinction between what he called aristocrat and democrat. the aristocrats, quoting him come are those who fear him stress people and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher class is. the democrats in contrast to identify with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the honest and safe, although not the most wise depository of the public interest. the modern progressive intellectuals, wilson, roosevelt, kennedy, intellectual left, those whose need to put the public in their place and are free from democratic dogmatism about the capacity of the ignorant and meddlesome out titers to enter the political arena, they are jeffersons aristocrats. these use a very widely held. though there are some disputes. namely who should play the guiding role. should it be with the liberal intellectuals called the technocratic and he oriented intellectuals, the ones we celebrate as the camelot intellectuals who run the progressive knowledge society or should it be bankers are corporate executives. in other versions, should be the central committee or "the guardian" of clerks, all pretty similar ideas and are all examples of the ecclesiastical and political guardianship that the genuine libertarian traditions takes to dismantle and reconstruct from below follows a changing industry for feudalistic good democratics social order, one that is based on workers control, respects the dignity of the producer is a genuine person, not a tool in the hands of others in accordance with the libertarian tradition that has been like mark says bolthole is always during to the service and ready to spring forth. they. [applause] emacs, for the discussion, i would like to invite anybody who has a question to line up behind the microphones on either side and please try to keep it size. as he do that, i would like to start, if you don't mind. i just wonder if you could do something about the images that represent some of their first encounters with anarchism. for people who've gotten excited about these ideas to the occupied movement, it was important to see them prior to somehow. i wonder what those images have been for you. >> i grew up in the 1930s, when i was a kid in a deep depression. plenty of suffering. there were images that kind of stick in my mind as people coming -- my parents were teachers. we have the money. not rich, but got along. in fact, the whole family of unemployed working class kind of converged around our house. we had at least one thing. but there were images of people coming to the door, trying to sell rides to try to get a piece of red to survive. i remember riding with my other on trolley cars, going past textile plant. this is philadelphia. i'm watching women on strike in brutally built eaten by security forces. my own family, extended family is most unemployed working class. and as i mentioned, very high culture. as the new deal began to have an impact, they were able to enjoy shakespeare plays in the part. go to the string quartet on my unemployed stress and who remembers of the, workers union. a couple weeks in the countryside at a solidarity camp. that was life. a lot of it was communist party. were not allowed to say anything nice about the communist party. that's the rule. there were a lot of things wrong with it. i mentioned some of them good but there were some things right. one is that it overcame the amnesia talk about. it is always there. people remembered. somebody remembered how to organize demonstration. you met from the civil rights station to live or work something else. they had crazy, international ideas, but that is in the back of their minds. the distraction of the communist party was quite important, killed off the radical, continuing element that kept a lot of fluff traditions going. you know the reasons for this in the cold war. that was all there. as far as anarchists were earning him the place i learned about that was a reading. when i was a kid, i would go to visit my relatives. soon as i got old enough to get on the train about 11 or 12 years old at take the train to new york and stayed with my relatives, this then much of my time, those of you who know new york, union square used to be the place to the anarchists office work. i have lots of pamphlets, lots of interesting people who were quite eager to talk to a young kid. not hard to have discussions. down below union square on fourth avenue, not today, the then there were roses mom bookstores. a lot of them run the european and the great, and many of spanish refugees who were also quite eager to talk and have lots of pamphlets. a real original documentary material. when i wrote about this 20 years later, i use mostly documentary material in picked up as a young teenager was not available. a lot of it is available now. it wasn't then. does a pretty inspired picture of the spanish revolution was a really inspired moment, which is why they visited such a vicious response from every corner of power. it's quite important to remember. communist, fascist, liberal democracies, all combined. this is something they couldn't tolerate. then they could have a fight reader about who picks up the spoil. there were anarchist proposals that i felt were not at least mumble. there it is perished of coors in the west. fata when the civil war was anarchist thinkers like camilla burg mary who was murdered or the communists in may 1937, 1 of the leading miss anarchist thinkers. he pointed out as it turned out, quite correctly, that they would never win a conventional war for one reason because the commitment to the war on the part of the population can't seriously declined after the revolution was crashed. he had lots 54 and they didn't care who is going to pick up the spoils. he pointed out and of course the fascists ripping directly supported by hitler and mussolini. the west was not opposed to that. he may forget now, but fascism had a pretty good image in the west in the late 30s. mussolini was that admiral italian gentleman answers about called him. hitler was regarded by the state department in the late 30s as a moderate who is holding off the forces of left and right comes we shouldn't be too critical of it. the united states had a calm cool and berlin up until pearl harbor, who was sending back dispatches saying you shouldn't be too hard on the doing things we don't like, but there's some moderates. his name is george canyon. you don't believe that in the biographies. that is not untypical at that. roosevelt, though, there is the neutrality act that the united states was not opposed to allow support for either side in the civil war. roosevelt was very bitter about any attempt by somebody choose a comments amicus go to the republic. couldn't stop it by force, but bitterly condemned it. on the other hand, the state department couldn't notice that i was reading in the left-wing press at the time of his lyric needed 20 years later that the united states had authorized the texaco oil company, which was run by an out right nazi. they switched it to shipping to the fascist forces, which is the one thing hitler and mussolini couldn't provide good they couldn't find the left press could find it. going back, was that in the mid-south of the popular forces should fight a guerrilla war. that's the most beamish tradition. fight a guerrilla war being itself. in morocco, call for support the moroccan liberation forces that were trying to freedoms does from french and british imperial spanish imperial. there were troops, and from northern africa appeared a support them for imperialist control that we thought the fascist armies, just as in spain itself, the popular forests were fading. until they were crushed. well, if you read the scholarship, up until today, that is dismissed as a romantic to have the whole anarchist feminist. that was my initial exposure. last night >> hi, this is an unimaginable honor. thank you so much for doing this. he touched briefly -- you have this wonderful show a quote in the touch under famous engagement with high culture. i was just going to ask you to refer to briefly on the contemporary state of high culture series are again how important it ain't engagement with that serious contemporary literature, music comes in a month, how important it is and explain the vanguard of political thought and whether or not temporary artisan on it as a rising to the challenge. >> i think it's very important. i'm not the only one who thinks so. i think people with our think so. at spiciness rivera mural was allowed to be put in rockefeller center. that's way to go back back to cinema, so you go back 60 years, early 50s, some of you will remember. in 1953, interesting year for cinema, there were two major films came out. two films that came out on the labor of man. one, which was a huge box office success of pr or advertising a show on teacher marlon brando was about a corrupt union later in how the heroic, you know, joe with his lunchbox finally overcame a corrupt union later and at the end of the film throws them into the water and everybody cheers. that was one. there was another film, a marvelous film called salted the earth. his low-budget film, which was about a victorious strike led by an hispanic woman. it was a really great film. if you can find it somewhere company should look at it. you can find it may be in a art theater in downtown new york somewhere. that wasn't a film that was going to get publicity. that runs through consistently. when people in power believe something firmly, it is worth paying attention to them. i think they believe firmly you should not have revolutionary popular art in which people participate. one of the reasons for destroying the graffiti in the new york subways is considered a great achievement. that's just too dangerous. part of the chart were for restore a large part of that came from the fact the harlem renaissance like artist and her are playing jazz smoking marijuana. so that became the great criminal of the h. mexicans who are doing it, too. this is pretty constant. so it's really important. >> what is preventing people, if anything, from organizing and elves into worker controlled operatives you alluded to co-ops. it's not much is preventing them from doing so, to what do you attribute their relative lack of popularity and the related question would eat, what could union controlled pensions, for example, be doing if the problem is capital, for example, why aren't more entities they putatively a worker controlled investing the capital they have control over in supporting these kinds of worker controlled alternatives? spin the first of all, pensions are not in the hands of working people. the units are not popular democracies. pensions are in the hands of bureaucrats and money managers. and they are not about to hand over power to popular organizations. actually, that not entirely true. there are some interesting initiatives. united steelworkers, which is one of the more progressive unions, has recently made some tentative arrangements with mondragon and it's a huge, banking, housing, school educational cooperative that could get somewhere. i mention paris worries discussed very well and participate in the spread of worker owned enterprises and mostly northern ohio, the old rust belt. that's an interesting history, which relates very much to this. back in 1970s event, at the beginning of a concerted effort to destroy industrial production and the united stated conservative beginning of days population we been through in the past generation. u.s. steel decided to close its main steel plants in youngstown, ohio. it was a steel town, like other working-class town, like detroit it had been built or the working classes. they didn't get the profit because their tools. they built it. they wanted to keep it. u.s. steel wanted to sell it, to close it down. the union offered to buy it. they had community support. they even have the poor does the republican governor, just let the workers by the plant and keep running it. u.s. steel didn't want that. in fact, this is pretty consistent. i mention david aliment come has written about it worked on it. very commonly around here, too, eastern massachusetts workers try to take over an enterprise, an enterprise which may be perfectly profitable, but not profitable enough for the multinational who run it. it'd be a good deal for the multinational. they sought for cost reasons. they have five centuries. they do not want to see the spread of popular democratic organization for obvious reasons. freakier in taunton, who is a small, but quite successful manufacturing plant with specialized parts for aircraft doing pretty well. the multinational didn't want to bother with it, so they are going to close down the union. they tried to buy. multinationals usually refuse to sell it. there wasn't enough popular support to push it through. if there had been an occupying movement at that time, that's something they might have pushed through. the auto in this tree him entirely, but virtually. they're a couple of options. the one option was restructure it, use taxpayer funding, hinted that the original owners for other people like them. thinkers, ceos and so on and then continue to do it as before, building cars. there wasn't another option. handed over to the workforce, have them build what is needed in the country, which is not more cars for traffic jams, but high-speed mass transportation. the united states is very backward in the world in this respect. you can take a hike be trained from beijing to kazakhstan. try to take a train from boston to new york and it's about as i was about 60 years ago. it's just a really backward country that needs. the former auto industry could have been handed over to the workforce and may be given in support. comparably less than the auto industry got to do this. that wasn't an option. suppose there had been a large hail occupying movement. it was significant, but i think that could have been pushed through. it takes popular conscious is. going back to young's town, the case into court in in 1977. the union laws, workers pause, and the steel were destroyed. but they didn't give out. they didn't just say okay, we will starve to death and go somewhere else. they began to recognize small worker owned enterprises. and they've been spreading around the cleveland area in youngstown, a good bit of northern ohio into other areas. so it is taking place. it's happening elsewhere, too. in northern mexico, they are quite successful workaround plans. it is not easy because the banks don't like to give them capital in the government doesn't like them and will support them for cost reasons. if a sufficient popular support commend these things can develop. it's hard work and the people who organize tougher for you. the civil rights movement, practically any movement that has ever gotten anywhere. the people up front usually take it and it's hard. people have to be willing to endure for a longer-term gain and that's not easy. but it can happen it does. >> i'm curious if you could address the role of surveillance technologies and increasingly the militarization of police as far as moving forward and radical thought today and the future and what you see where that is now. >> there were two things to bear in mind about that. the first inning as the phenomenon is well shouldn't be at all surprising. this section is the scale at least to me as kind of surprising. hadn't really expected that tale. the phenomenon is normal. it's as american as apple pie. go back a century. take say the philippine war, early in the century, 20th century. it is a vicious lawyer. the u.s. conquered the philippines. was a major popular nationalist movement. after the military victory, it had to be suppressed, controlled in huge pacification campaign was initiated using the highest knowledge she of the day for surveillance, subversion, breaking up groups, building off hostilities, all kinds of things. very sophisticated. it was very quickly transferred home. it was used by woodrow wilson in the red scare and the worst repression in american has been developed further sense. it's had a lethal effect of the philippines. people mourn the typhoon that killed tens of thousands of people. that doesn't happen in functioning societies. it's very striking in the caribbean. when a tropical storm goes through the caribbean, td, one of the major victims of imperial violence suspicious. i asked her in cuba, three people died. some buildings are not over. same storm. depends on the society. the philippines as a society that we created has maintained. it is the one part of southeast asia that hasn't taken part in the so-called asian miracle. not one of the asian tigers. there's a reason for that. good reason. these techniques -- you can be confident that any state or commercial enterprise, any system of power is going to use whatever technology is available to try to control and dominate what amounts to its major enemy coming to the population. that's a power systems are going to do. the scale won't reveal what surprising, but it actually shouldn't be. there's more to come. those of you who read technical journals, like say the m.i.t. technology review, they should know what's coming. for example, recently there've been articles on things like, there and elsewhere on the hardware and computers being designed. they blame china but it's done 10 times as much here to put in the components in the hardware that will enable the manufacturer to record every keystroke, everything happening on your computer. the american businesses are worried because it had chinese computers, they'll be picking it up at the people's liberation army. they don't pick up the american systems are much more at aunt to doing the same thing. robotics is a field that's been worked on pretty hard for many years hereto. one of the goals is to develop five sized drones, tiny robot, which can, you know, get on the ceiling of your living room and carry out constant surveillance. drones can't go from surveillance to the full capacities quickly. we can expect that pretty soon. these are names that are in development. any system that powers going to do them and pretty strikingly, chi hotties are going to use them. one of the things we are doing right now is creating technology . by today already, it is claimed that for $300, you can purchase a small drone online. that's improving very fast. for terroristic committees just perfect. there's an article in this month in the journal. describing how we are rapidly creating the technology to permit massive terrorist attack on ourselves. that's also typical. power systems seek short-term power and domination. they are not concerned with security. it's contrary to academic dogma. you can easily show they are interested in power, domination, the welfare of their primary, domestic agencies, which are concentrated wealth and disaster in the long term, not their is. you can show it's obvious with environmental issues. same with nuclear weapons. see might withdraw to allergy. it's going to go on unless we stop it. it doesn't have to go on. >> can you offer a critique of startup culture and match premiership, which offers many of the seeming characteristics of autonomy, but is that so? >> seeming characteristics. starter culture, it's okay. people like their absence no one. it is based very heavily on state subsidy. it's kind of a narrow form of entrepreneurship. take silicon valley culture what are they using. they use electronics and so forth. almost all developed in states that are for decades before private power from commercial is nation and application. so there's an initiative they are. people having fun in doing maybe interesting things, but relying very heavily on the backgrounds a subsidy, which takes many forms. everyone miti to know it. it's paydirt salaries for years. you know, for decades, computers and the internet, the whole i.t. culture is being developed right here similar places. finally, after decades is handed over to bill gates steve jobs to market and commercialize, make profit and make little things you carry around with you. so it's kind of -- it has entrepreneurial asked that, but it's a parasitic -- it is parasitic, much more fundamental development. the hard work, research and development creative work is quite stancil in the state sector. it is not just subsidy. there are many other devices of taxpayer support for private enterprise. one of the main ones is procurement. so for example, in the early 60s, ibm through the 50s had learned, mostly in government laboratories in places like this, had learned to switch from punch card to digital computers and they built the world's biggest computer in the early 60s, fastest computer. it was much more expensive for business, said the government audit. that is the purchaser of last resort. i think it went to los alamos. that goes on all the time. procurement is a major form of public subsidy to private enterprise. that's one of the reasons why private capital does not want markets. they want markets for other people, but not for themselves. for themselves what they want a nanny state, powerful nanny state that will support them. what the significance of the ashburn arroyo culture is you can judge not overwhelmed by the fact there's dozens of new apps coming. i think there are more important things. >> side a question about how you reconcile the tradition of anarchism to the abstract authority and power conversion. it could be argued the federal government during the civil war was coercive to the confederate case. we know that it was the civil war was a revolution of slaves against slavery in the federal government ended up intervening months later. that could be argued as an authority. so how do you actually navigate that. for example, the definition between labor and capital. do you see that as something that is may be different from our offered as a different active because i think that could account for the reason why, for example, there are things that capitalism that can be argued several different ways that this is intervening on my ability to pay my workers a low-wage or whatnot. >> i didn't understand -- >> my question his authority alphas and abstract term. >> i think there's anything abstract about authority. we live with it all the time. that is true if you're at work or, namely a wage slave as workers unders. it is true until recently for many women at obvious. nothing abstract about it. women didn't even have legal rights the united states until pretty recently. >> my question mr. workers have the authority to take over? >> if they have the authority? why not. they built the plant. they made the product so they do the work. why should they be tools rented by some bankers summerhouse quiet that is the way our institutional structure happens to be formulated. but it doesn't mean it's legitimate. when you talk about authority are asking questions about legitimate day, the people have the right to run their own lives. or do they have to be sort of tools in the hands of foreign masters? you know, that is the question of the, not authority. you mentioned the civil war. there's ample evidence by now that was very significant slave initiative in the civil war. take the american revolution. to a large extent, that was a revolution carried out in order to maintain slavery. you look back at the history. around 1770, the legal system was beginning to undertake drug combinations that i agree that one famous case. slaveowners from the united ace proctors ice with them to england. one of them escaped enough for his owner wanted him back. it's my property. they went to court in two minutes that, famous sureness, who wrote this lever is so odious come in the term he used that cannot be tolerated on english soil. that's another story. but not on english soil. the founders are almost always they. they can see the handwriting on the wall at the colonies remain under british rule, probably these laws would apply here and they would lose their property. it's running right to the present. write to this moment the civil war is being sought. simply take a look at the electoral maps of the election in 2012. red states and blue states, almost identical. the motivation behind the effort we can win this war finally. labour parties didn't amount to much. at least they were something. the u.s. never had them. it's always had sectional parties and is a reflection of the civil war, which has never ended. it also hasn't ended in the prison and elsewhere. it is a deeply rooted than in the society. >> i hope you'll all join me in thanking noam chomsky once more. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> in their book, heart i'm a dick cheney and his longtime cardiologist jonathon writer talk about mr. cheney's history with heart disease and the advances in cardiology or the past several decades. mr. cheney suffered his first of five heart attacks when he was 37. he had a heart transplant in 2012. the two discussed their book for about an hour next on booktv. >> tonight's program will consist of an interview conducted by barbara cochran, president of the national press club journalism institute and the chair in public and for journalists at the missouri school of journalism. but mr. cheney and dr. reiner, followed by a brief q&a, we invite you to purchase a book you have in our defense so. each of the books have been pre-signed -- is a pre-signed plates you get a signed copy. they won't be a book signing tonight. as long as he is served at the highest levels of business and government, vice president dick cheney -- has been on of the world's most prominent heart patients. now for the first time ever, cheney together with his longtime cardiologist, jonathan reiner and the shares the very most tory of his 35 year battle with heart disease from his first heart attack in 1972 the heart transplant he was deep in 2012. the book has been de

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