Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On A History Of Violence 20160716

[inaudible conversations] good afternoon, everyone. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming to this event. My name is i am the managing director of the hemispheric institute. And my colleague, hemi and bristol books are very proud to organize this book launch event for owes scar martinezs newly released and second book called the history of violence living and dieing in Central America. This work is hugely important for us at the institute but i think for public, englishspeaking public in United States, the circumstances of Central American refugee and migrants in their countries and in mexico and the United States are absolutely humanitarian crisis, with many, many dimensions. Oscars work and writing and Investigative Journalism is one of the key voices that is bringing the circumstances to light, and we are, again, honored and delighted to be able to host the launch of his book and have him here with us with some distinguished guests guest. Before continuing id like to hand it over to sofia so she can say a few words about herself. Thank you for coming. I just want to say a little bit our book store. We published in english, and it was one of the most critically acclaimed books ever. Huge, huge feat of journalism and were so proud to publish the second book. Were based in brooklyn and london, the largest independent radical public press in English Speaking world, and we see this book as critically politically important, and central to the conversation around justice for refugees in Central America and at large. Thank you. Thank you, sofia, and everybody who has helped make this happen. Our moderator today will be diana taylor, diana is a University Professor and professor of performance studies in spanish at new york university. The author of numerous books, including performance and the archive and the repertoire. The recipient of many awards and. Diana is the founder and director of the hemispheric performance and politics and i ask diana to come up to the stage and introduce our speakers and participants. Thank you so much for being here. Were very excited about the conversation tonight and very happy to welcome our guests. So, if you would come up here. Well be speaking spanglish. If you have trouble with that raise your hand and well try to work it out. It is an honor to be dues Oscar Martinez. He works for the first online newspaper in latin america. The original edition of his book was published in 2010 and it is titled with the second edition by in 2012. Martinez is currently working on chronicles and writing articles, investigating Gang Violence in latin america. In 20 2008, martinez won the fernando benetiz National Journalism prize in mexico, and in 2009, he was awarded the human rights prize at the jose leon Central American university in el salvador. He is most recently the author of a history of violence, living and dieing in Central America. That were here to discuss and of course the books are on sale here. And Francisco Goldman to my left has published four novels. The most recent won the his books have been published in many languages and is currently back to work on a novel, the writing of the circuit. So, he is currently back to work on the novel that writing the interior circuit interrupted. Francisco goldman has been a guggenheim fellow, and a fellow at the american academy. He has written for the no,er. The New York Times, the believer, and many other publications. He directs the prize. Every year teaches one semester at Trinity College in hartford, connecticut, and then back to mexico city. And anderson to my left is a journalist, Investigative Reporter and a war correspondent and is presently a staff writer for the the new yorker. He is renowned for this numerous profiles on political leaders, including hugo chavez, and pinochet. And recognized for teaching georgeism and working to safeguard the rights of journalists and is chairman of the foundation for journalism and teaches workshops for latin american reporters. Anderson has written several books, including the lions grave, i dispatches frost afghanistan and chronicles from iraq. Killing grounds. The next project is a biography of fidel castro. Thank you very much for joinings us. I think frank Francisco Goldman is going to start by making a few preliminary remarks. Thank you all for coming. Great honor to be here to be able to say a few words about my friend, colleague, Oscar Martinez. I really consider him the greatest artist of our time, not just in spanish. So much i could say but just to briefly say a few words. His new book comes after the beast. Which is sort of interesting because the beast narrates the journaly of migrants through mexico, up into the United States, primarily, and the new book more or less takes us back to the world that theyre fleeing from. So its kind of like if you think of the two books as providing a journalistic narrative going backwards. Have to say a few words about the things two books have. One is probably the part of oscar that some ways are great artists both books are unbelievable portraits of human spirit. More so than Joseph Conrad and heart of darkness or any book you can think of. This really makes us confront the abyss of human viciousness. When youre reading and the beast, when the migrants only route in which they can avoid the migration checkpoints on the highway and have to divert. And oscar chronicles has this great line you see so many skeletons along the path, and at one point seeing human skeletons along the path, prophecy of the future of people traveling. As he tells it were so used to saying its the authority, the police. You begin to realize these are local people who are preying on the migrants. Farmers and ranchers who realize these incredibly Vulnerable People were traveling there are their area and if anything was done to them, they were unlikely to good to the police because they didnt want to be deported. So they realized, way can do whatever we want. We can rob them, rape them, murder them, and so they did. Its horrifying. Horrifying to say, well, were that, too. Were all humans and anything any human does in the sense is part of who we all are, and of course there are great examples of moral bravery and resistance along the migrant trail, shelters to food to the migrants but this is a huge central fact of ohio his writing, very dark truth. And it filled me we joy to read it because i just love encountering the truth. Why we admire the very rare writer who can bring us the truth. That mix of bravery and artistry that oscar has to just make us see. Also reminds us, too when you read anyone who reads the beast. Sees that terrible journaly they untake and understands that every single time a Central American migrant manages to cross the border and get into the United States, thats a great victory. Thats something we should all stand up and cheer for. Every single last one of them. Because every single one of them has to be so brave himself, so resilient, and have endured so much, so makes you feel so proud of the human spirit, what human beings are capable of, and also understand why theyre doing it, the great love that drives them to do better by their families. Thirdly, another aspect we cant overlook is trauma. They go through so much. Im sure well talk more about this later but in oscars book he is so eloquent of portraying the damage left behind, the fact that 80 of the women who make this journey or sexually violated along the way. These are our brothers and sisters all around us. Who at this moment are being defamed every day in our political discourse. Its incredibly brave people who have been through so much and have to live and go on and endure it. If you know them and worked with them, you know they dont complain, who have been through so much. And are really heroes of our society. Lastly, the thing in the new book especially you confront that so eloquently describes this is all our problem. This is the United States, every citizen of the United States, so complicit in this situation and the roots of this situation. We all we see how these deep, deep cultural violence was has so many of it roots in the Central American wars of the 1980s. The destruction of those incredible destruction that was never addressed in any kind of positive way. Of course, the drug war at the heart of socalled drug war at the heart of so much of this. Not just the greet consumers, not just the people who our money not only drives this drug war but we also provide the arms, and im sure well talk a lot about how complex that issue is and how inter2009ed Central American problems in the Central American the problems in the Central American triangle are also our problem. [applause] thank you all, and thank its a real pleasure. I echo frank in my sentiments about oscar hello . Can you hear me . Now you can. Just like to echo frank can you hear me now . In his sentiments expressed about oscars great talent and skill as a really, i think, safe to say, foremost interlocutor for Central America. He is a person who is braving the situations and has the extraordinary not just reporter skills, reporting skills, but the writing talent, to bring us testimony and chronicles from an extraordinarily harsh and usually overlooked, ignored, neglected, reality. Its been there for a long time. Its getting worse. This isnt the kind of i dont mean this is the kind of chicken little statement, but the Central Americas always been overlooked, even when it was said to be the Number One National security priority for the United States 30 odd years ago. When i read oscar i feel wellrepresented. In knowing that heres someone who is who is an oldfashioned term, we dontite much in this country but he is a patriarch in his country in the very best sense, that oldfashioned sense that nobody uses anymore. He feels the righteous indignation of seeing theer ente destiny taken away and being chewed up and still being chewed up. Still not the country any of wuss want to live in. When i go back to el salvador and i go see them at their annual event, and i talk with them whenever i can. They just as reporters 30 years ago in el salvador they live under death threats. There are assassins, the same people that oscar meets and chronicles are people who can be turned on a dime to kill others. Some including people who write about them. So its a great act of valor, moral courage as well, what oscar and his friends are doing. They deserve a much wider audience. As frank was saying, deserves to be part of our pit political debate in the country in greater way. There are salvadorans, mexicans, guatemalans, hondurans, everywhere, and theyre not given the visibility and the place in our society that they deserve. We have placed them here. We have placed them here and that is a and that comes with a lot of baggage. Its baggage we should finally open up to and thats the underpicking of oscar it could be called a mission, oscars mission to help make us see what is going on and get some debate going. Get the conversation going in this country. So, thank you. Sorry for going on, but thank you. [applause] i cannot speak in english. I can speak in spanish. If thats case im going to try to speak in my bad english, going to do my best, so i can explain my ideas. I have some problems with the vocabulary to find the exact word i want to say. Ill do my best. First of all, thank you, particularly, dyana, thank you to the people of the book store and sofia who have to say thank you to consider you friends and the first book the beast the latest book about violence. It consider you not just friends but to a journalist and writer that i saw a lot of years ago. The process of the two books was a long process. Why i say that, because 2007, when i lived in mexico, i started to understand to understood i have several problems with time. I started to understood how the people across mexico, 2007 was a particular year on the Central American migration across mexico for one reason. One group of i dont know how to describe any better cave mans, one of the most brutal organization of organized crime i saw in my career, started to kidnap a lot of migrants, to sell womens in the south, in the north, mexico, and to extortion migrants. So in 2007, i know that im starting with the beast but ill going to arrive to our history of violence. In 2007 it changed, the situation about migration. Yeah, it wasnt just a cold or the trip from the top of the train. It start to be a problem of organized crime, and everybody its like if everybody opened their eyes in august 2010 when 72 migrants that happens in 2007, it just anybody went there saw what happened on the fields. I dont know why but thats the behavior of some colleagues. I did confer with a lot of good young journalists, but a lot of journalists used to make coverage of migration on press conference and never saw our migrants at a press conference. I dont know its important to understand what government think but its more important go to the fields. So, i say that the two books seems like a long way because i started for three years to understood all the things that migrant suffered to come here, to try to get in the United States without permission of nobody. But i remember that, like, in 2008, a priest from United States asked me in the south of mexico in the state of oaxaca, he asked me if they going to pass through all these things, what happened behind . What happened in Central America . I start to figure that i cant answer that question at that moment. I could not an that question. Journalists in Central America, i think that was part of the problem. We are unable is that correct . Incapable to explain, for example, young. We dont know where they come from, how they started, when they arrived and why they arrived to our society. We could not explain we was unuseful to our society. That happened when i realize that in 2010 during the Central American bottom of journalism in el salvador. I ask that question and i start to understand that the migrant was not to immigrate. Was to flee because situation of that seems january of 2011 i started to try to answer that kind of question. What happened . How its possible that a country one person, how its possible that you cannot live anymore in one country. Some people ask me what happened after the 92 in el salvador, after the peace agreements, what happened. Why we are not a peaceful society, and when i say el salvador, processing the guatemala eave similar come poem inepts but my components but my answer is not how we become so Violent Society or how can be so violent. For example, last year have to say that in spanish. Going to say it slow maybe. You can understand me that way butyrase year in el salvador one of every 900 2 person was killed 972 person was killed. If that flow to the United States you have homicides last year. If that was in the states it would have been 330,000 homicides last year. Thank you. So, in el salvador, my answer is that we never live in peace. We dont know how to practice this. Never have a society with peace. I can remember, for example, theres a lot of theories that how we get to that kind of for example, 2009, when we were the most violent country in the world. I think that its a construction of society that have some strong components, for example, one in el salvador were very unequal society. A lot of people on one side and so few people on the other side but the construction of the state is made for the few people. The construction of the salvadoran of the guatemalan, the honduran is made to solve the problems of the leader group of people. In el salvador, the most i dont know how to said murderous country the most murderous country in el salvador, one of ten homicides go to trial. Just one of every ten homicide homicides have a little possibility of get result. I dont know to tell you that that few number of homicides is not the homicide of the poor people or of the working class in el salvador. The construction of the state in guatemala, el salvador and honduras, its in a purpose. A lot of people are fleeing from that situation. They have no response from the state in their country so they try to leave the country, and for reasons they try to come here because theres like an a lot of years ago. So, this second book talk about that kind of situation. I think that one of the missions of journalism is to put light on the darkest corners of our society. Being that people experiment, daybyday its happened since 20 years ago, but its a dark corner of our society. Anybody told that kind of thing, with a so thats what i tried to do with that book because i think that different if you hear that somebody theres a country so violent that people have to flee. Thats different that you can read about people with names, last names, some specific situations. So, i try to get close that situation to you. I think that francisco talk a little bit about that, but make myself the question, why this book is important to read here in the United States. What is important that you read the book i going to be honest. I know that a lot of italians read my book but thats not my main go. I want you to read my book here in the United States. Thats my main [speaking spanish] im not talking about people who dont live here. Im talking about you. Im talking about people who live around you, all day, with in contact with you all day. All week. And im talking about people like francisco said, who have huge damage, huge trauma, in they live quietly life, silent life, around you, and that theyre part of that society. In second place, because i think i think i have to elaborate too much about that. For example, in the question you can tell me to make a better answer about that than i gonna say right now, but i dont have to say to you that the construction of this Central American society, mainly in north of Central America, have a lot of a lot to see with the politics, politics of the United States. Put a lot of example about you have google and you can find on google you have to put some name of president , aid, arms, military, fine a lot of huge examples. Not going to bother bore you. I want to i dont identify that person already but i going to do it. I expect big so wrong decision. Like the end of the 80s and beginning of the 90s, 4,000 young members from the south of california, who post war that guy did not understand the process of migration. Right now you have some young members who for example, the gang was founded in el salvador, and operate around langley park in washington, for example. So, that 4,000 young members who was deported on the end of the 8s and the beginning of the 90s right now become in 60,000 young members just in el salvador, but numbers of the salvadoran government. So, the second reason to read that book, its because i think that the government of United States in the government of the United States has moral responsibility about society, el salvador and honduras. In el salvador we started one word to the killing of the bishop in the 80s. A group of military. That how they work in the 80s. United states supports 12 more years of that army, the army who it commit that. 12 more years. So i need to pass the question because i already said all the word i know english. [laughter] so please help me a little bit. Thank you for being here. [speaking spanish] gracias. [applause] thank you so much. So, before we open it up to questions and answers, which we would love, of course, to have a good conversation here today, that is mainly the point of this, i wanted to just ask a couple of questions because we have three great journalist here, and three great journalists who have covered the same area of the world in different moments. So, i would like to ask i guess i have two questions is something that picks up on something that oscar himself brings up in his hoyt of violence book history of violence book which has to do with the role of journalism in elucidating some of these issues. For example, the violence, the criminal politics, the very misguided political decisions that have led to this incredible crisis. The classism, racism, sexism, all the thing wes know that have made this so particularly violent. So, whats the role that journalism has in what we construe as the public Pay Attention to and i think that oscar has said something just right now about, you can google. The information is out there. Its not like the information isnt out there. So why dont we know it and why dont we know it in a way that we somehow feel obligated to do something about it . I guess thats the challenge that journalists face, and thats one of the things i would like to ask the three of you to reflect on. Going to be pretty short because i want to hear you. I think that journalists is an answer. Used to ask a lot of time what is the solution, and thats a very difficult question for a journalist. At least i going to i dont understand why in that that what want to ask to you, during the war, United States look lots at corner of the world, United States put great correspondents in Central America. Why they the middle of the United States leave Central America after the war . What happened . Why you dont be so interested in the process of peace . What happened in that period . So, i think i mean, theres an historical explanation and that is that the soviet union collapsed, communism collapsed, 15 countries where there had been one. It was a huge event. The guerrillas sued for peace in their regime, under the auspices of the u. N. And sometime this United States, the very same government that supported one side in the war now turned itself into a goodwill ambassador for, is a was saying earlier, kind of spanish, see no evil, hear no evil, transition in what justice was not contemplated. Things were frozen in place. Nobody got punished and everything was supposedly hunkydory. The United States has a major shift in its axis. It looked east to the former soviet union and also the gulf war. A couple of wars right around then which had to do with dealing with americas frankensteins. Errant rouges. Noriega in panama and Saddam Hussein in iraq. To the United States became an interventionist power, with the exception of little grenada. The First Time Since vietnam. Central america has been fixed so america looked east, and typically in my experience i was a very young reporter then. Wasnt one of the big media. I was a nobody in Central America. That where i cut my teeth. I began going to see the rest of the world as a free lance reporter. But what i can say with certainty in the intervening years is there is a pattern of this happeningful after the soviets were pushed out of afghanistan, there was no reporters left there either. I remember in 89 i covered one of the last battles there there were four reports for tens of thousands of people fighting. Nobody was looking. The cia station apparently, we learned after 9 11, went home. We have as a nation we are mono thematic and faddish at every level. Politically, culturally and every other way. Think that what pattern im getting to ive seen over the course of my career is that the media interests, the decisions about where the media should pass its days tends to be set in washington. The editors of course, they better editors than others and contrarians and lefties and rightwingers and the mainstream, but pretty much everybody follows whatever is uttered out of the white house, and Central America ceased to be important, and you know what . Pretty early on, those of white house have been there, were hearing about the a few came back and report but it became a story that was not of any national priority, and it remains so to this day. Remains to this day for all your efforts and for all the occasional incursions into our National Agenda via the campaign, by trumps remarks, or or the undocumented kid on the border. But usual i takes a hallmark event for america to react, and americas media will not react until washington reacts. Thats the case. This is the ultimate land of free speech, and by and large thats a fairly true statement. But its incredibly oriented it axis is to an incredible degree oriented on how the agenda is set in washington. Thats the main reason why. So until a president says, on television, as Ronald Reagan did once upon a time, and naming a particular country in Central America, this is important to all of us. And says some version of what we say here tonight, most americans are going to continue to gone on with their lives because they dont have to confront it. Because they feel anywhere a big island feel theyre in a big island, beset by a confusing wild world in which they can only look at one or two crises at a time. So, syria going on, iraq going on, afghanistan imploding, you know, el salvador is not going to get a look. Just not. And so that is really the problem there. And by the way, over the years, i cant tell you the number of times i have been to editors as a journalist this isnt just me when he would say i think theres great story to be done on el salvador and im talking, 1992, 1993. Lets not talk about which publication. That wasnt the the new yorker. I wasnt anyone near the know,er in near the the new yorker those days. Nobody is interested in do you have anything on the middle east . Until rwanda that was the rote answer for anywhere in africa. Anywhere in africa. You couldnt, as a free lancer there were no blogs. There was no internet. It was handful of publications that we know of. Some have gone one gone out of business, some not what they were and survive as logos but they determine what gets out there, the handful of people that runs publications or television stations, back in the 80s and the 90s, and to a fair degree still, pretty much determine what people are going to read if its not a good story, not going to get in. If its a good story, it might. The region of the country may be completely tangential to that story. So, again, thats why i think oscar is unique. Hes not just a good reporter, he is a good writer and that comes across in english as well. We have a unique opportunity to get the story out, the real issues out in a way that just straight up reporting in any one of the newspapers we can think of across this country that might do a news brief or even a news feature about one of the issues in Central America, might report but otherwise wont have the same doesnt have the same impact. So these its this is it. Made the point i had a Conference Last Week here at nyu, and it was all about what happened in all of the countries since the cuban revolution, they all had something to do with the cuban revolution. The revolution was 57 years ago itch would argue, would bet, that in the last year and a half, since president reagan and president castro decided to normalize relations there has been president obama. Did i say president reagan . President obama sorry. Im still one foot in Central America. President obama and president castro there has been more positive coverage lets say not in the pages of the New York Times or any of the mainstream, the national in the last year and a half about cuba than there was in the previous ten years. What does that tell you . That editors take their cue from the white house pretty much. If obama said, look, the embargo was a mistake, this whole policy is a mistake, lets look at this place in a different way, everybody starts to. About before that time you couldnt. Thats the way it works. And until someone in the white house says something to us, its not going to be. Im sorry to sound so cynical but thats the answer to your question. Very briefly, hearing this a little bit back directly to something oscar writes about in his book. I can think of and quickly contrast two stories. One in which journalistic persistence trust me, journalist persistence has forced a story into the media, in a place where you see sometimes the problem is that journalists, editors and newspapers have a story and dont follow it up. They dont push it could be bad decisions are made, even when the focus is on. Okay . So, very quickly, the positive story and we wont get into details. 43 students in mexico. Two years of persistent coverage determined at the margins, not in the mainstream press, girl legal a reporting if you guerrilla regarding has broken one aspect of the story after another, after another, after another, working in concert with a group of legal experts and the journalists were incredibly important and made that story impossible to ignore and its getting on the front page of the New York Times. It was resisted for years. You can go down the story and tell this person broke that part of the case. To go to the other side and write into something oscar writes about, which i found fascinating. We just had a little while ago, months and months of coverage of el cap oand sean penn and blah blah blah. Right . Penn is there is a fantastic chapter in the book when eight policeman in a guatemalan townwiped out in a narcohit and he does a remarkable job of putting this in the whole contest and write how the problem, all the prosecutors, the enforcers, says the United States has this obsession with trophies. They come in, and its like one after the other, like the big capos get extra extradited. It creates more problems than it solves because then you get eight Endless Supply of minicapos who want to announce themselves through slaughter, and what he should talk about, he talked about the challenges that presented justice workers in countries like guatemala and how incredibly counterproductive with the why didnt the New York Times or the the new yorker the the new yorker loves to do stuff on el chapo. Why didnt someone do a story like, how is this actually affecting the narcowar . No. Try to compliment that explanation with two with experience. I remember with three years ago i was writing an article, an oped article for a National Newspaper from here, from the United States. Do not say names. In that moment, the editor i was did not born in Central America. Born in the south of california. I remember that the editor told me thats a headline. And i said, yeah, thats a headline. A century ago. No, no. In that moment i thought it is incredible that an editor did not know so basic information about guns, who in the 50s and another one in the 70s in the south of california. The second one is just about the chronicles of just talking about i remember that when guatemala how might say extradited. When guatemala extradited the narcos in guatemala. I asked the former minister of security, who now is hiding somewhere, i asked him if he if they really gonna extradite and he told me, no way. He is like the referee in our problem. He put rules in that world and he kill a lot of people. He is not our priority. He is the priority of another government. So, they give me helicopters and they give me a lot of weapons to got him. I ask him that moment, you can use that resources to do something about security in guatemala where you use that resources. His answer was, on the fight against guns inch neighborhoods like with very tough neighborhoods in get mall guatemala. Yes so i say in spanish, somebody maybe can help me. I remember an investigator of the National University of mexico, said one thing about the politics of drugs and crime in Central America. He said. [speaking spanish]. Thats [inaudible] but the super, yeah, exist. In 2003 the embassy of United States in el salvador agreed with that kind of politics. More than a decade before they know that doesnt work. So some moment, we feel like a kind of experiment in the issue of security. And that, i think that that happened during five years in terms of issues involve gang members or organized crime. But i think in Central America we, the journalists, dont do our work [speaking spanish] we didnt do our work for, like, a lot of years. We didnt say nothing about that. We didnt understand gangs in 2003. Because we dont used to go to went to the neighborhood where they do what they do. So i think that journalists in el salvador, in guatemala, in honduras are a huge part of the problem. But i think in fairness i dont know if this is working. Try this. Thanks. I think in fairness is truth is a lot of people have been killed during this. We were working with a filmmaker, i dont know, i cant remember what year it was, where he did [speaking spanish] [inaudible] yeah. And he goes back, and he got killed two weeks after he saw him, right . I mean, so its never been an easy task even if you decide that youre going to talk to those people. I just have to say that in my particular case, im privileged because [inaudible] i need two more months, theyre going to answer me, take three months. But in a lot of countries like mexico or honduras, for example, the media dont kill the journalists, but [inaudible] because if youre a journalist and your newspaper sended you to make a coverage of a concert of Britney Spears and the next morning you have to go to make a coverage of a game of football, and in the afternoon you have to go to a place controlled by the organized crime, thats irresponsible but not by you for your newspaper to do that. I mean, theres a lot of journalists who go to places without understand anything. Because in Central America a lot of owners of newspaper and news radios or tv channels think that journalist is like work in a pizza shop, and you have to deliver the product in half an hour. And i think that thats the reason, because a lot of journalists sent to honduras, for example, die because they have no support. In mexico too, for example. Mexico some journalists, i talked with a journalist in tobasco who, his salary is 30 pesoses per day. Thats we sews pesos per day. And they have to use part of that salary to put gasoline in his car. So how you can do electoral work under that condition is impossible. One of the journalists was killed in vera cruz. Taxi driver. [speaking spanish] [inaudible conversations] and yet if you think about, i just cant help but mention it, because i find it so remarkable. You think of the breakthroughs in the [inaudible] and they each have come from a journalist on the margins. John gibbler is the first to discover the fifth bus. Hes an american freelancer who has been wearing the same set of clothes for a year, for five years, it seems. [laughter] its like a freelance reporter is the one who discovers that there was no fire at that dump, basically, talking to the dump workers. A bunch of Ann Bella Nunez at uc berkeley was run out of the country for her blog [inaudible] the participation of federal police in the case. And now freelance, it turns out freelance photographers who positioned themselves on a rooftop discover, film the evidence of what is apparently the head prosecutor of the case planting evidence. Yeah. Bueno. Should we open up now for questions from you all . Yes. I think its micd, right . Theres a mic over here. Do you want to go over to the mic and thatd be great. Otherwise we cant hear. Hi. Thank you all for being here. Deeply admire the work that youve done. I just want to touch on an issue. John, you alluded to this initially in your introduction, a very brief comment about i think you were alluding to the fact that the if you look even in our own country, you can see some of the same things happen. I want to draw a parallel and ask your opinion about that. So theres a book that called ghettocide which is very much like reading the work youve done, oscar. Its about murders in los angeles on the south side by jill lorenzi. And her points that she same to were completely the opposite of the current understanding of what is the problem in the ghettos. So this woman wrote a book which came out about a year ago and completely destroyed all the operating principles about what, how the police and how the Justice System should work in reducing criminal behavior in the ghettos. Complete opposite. So weve been operating and its a very, very substantial, important argument. But she basically argues that theres no Justice System in these, in these areas, that the homicide rate has dropped throughout the United States in the ghettos, but it stayed the same in the black communities. So nobody, the killers are not brought to justice. Theres simply no operating Justice System. So extrapolate from that. So here we have a reporter who has turned the entire discussion of the politics and the method of reducing homicides in the United States which is very substantial in these communities, and if we look at that and we just take it where you guys are and we look at the operating principles of the drug war and all the discussions, is there potentially some parallels or some similarities that can be drawn, and where do the journalists stand in this conversation . Yeah. Yeah, i have theres a lot of [inaudible] who are wrong, for example. But you had the [inaudible] here, like, two weeks ago. Unga. I dont know how to spell it. United nations general on what . Drugs. Yeah, the drugs but theres solid information about the war against drugs is based on nothing, on nothing. And i think that el salvador is a great example of how not to a country, of course, how you dont have, how not to construct a country. We have all the ingredients to study and say, okay, this is [inaudible] no, no, no, youre going to have a good society. [laughter] but i think that its [inaudible] but not now, years ago that we solved that problem just with guns and bullets. Its obvious that the issue of guns, its a problem of identity too and a group of things, not just a violent problem or a security problem. But they are still applying the same method. I dont know, i dont have an answer of why. I suppose that maybe the media are not enough strong in that countries and the denounce is not too strong, or maybe the society so divided that the message is not taken and anything happen. Thats something very common in Central America. That anything happen. Sometimes you can show things, and you know that a lot of people read it and anything happen. We have a very [inaudible] guatemala is not the best example in the last year, because they have all [inaudible] but in el salvador, thats a fact. For example, we had a truce between government and gang who was started in march of 2012. With the truce, the homicides reduce like they have. But the opinion of the society about the politicians come down too. People dont like, the interest is not less there. The interest is less there but with bullets, kill them all. That thats the solution. And thats very typical of the Central American society. Resolve with weapons and with bullets, not with dialogue. We dont want dialogue. We want that you kill all these guys, and thats the solution that were [inaudible] i just want to ask oscar a question. [inaudible conversations] my question is basically about the ideas [inaudible] and this plays out in terms of how our foreign aid is delivered as if they were somehow the ones who can be rescued and who are the victims of circumstances rather than making proactive decisions [inaudible] and, therefore, guilty entirely and that better . And the same with the attention, such as it was, that was given to the child my grants here. It was only the youngest ones and the attention i was in washington in those days, and people are just saying theyre younger and younger and younger as though this is the main thing that matters and forgetting about the adults, the young adults in their 20s and 30s. So how do you write stories, or what could be the role of these kind of stories to break down this distinction between younger ones who are somehow victims of circumstance, and then they turn 18 and must be treated as unrepentant criminals on both sides of the border . Si. Yes. Going to be very complicated answer. But thank you for your question. Im going to try to do my best. Okay. Yes [inaudible] the Central American child. There were child in Central America [inaudible] guide was 17 years old and sent to america, maybe hes more adult than a guy of 30 years in another part of the world. Mostly that guy is from the rural areas of el salvador, but i think it started with one thing, i think the question of the crisis about the child my grant was the migrant was the wrong question. The people ask what change, and i think the question is what thing never change . Like, a lot of people in Central America have a perception [speaking spanish] the polls about that, the perception of the violation increasing that year the violence increasing that year in el salvador because the truce went down in guatemala because this solution about the political system. In honduras thats my opinion, of course. In honduras because they have several reasons to think that in honduras. In the [inaudible] here in the United States dont going to include a lot of people. Make a lot of people think [inaudible] and, of course, the coyotes play a role in that. Some coyotes started to offer their service because it was cheap. You just have to deliver the kid to the border. You dont have to walk through the United States. But your question was what am i do with my journalist role, like that attention many that population the distinction between innocent child and [inaudible] i dont know if im doing a lot about that distinction. But because i think that its very important to explain the life of the young people in Central America, because its a very complicated age. If you have 23 years, its very probably that gang members stop to a accost [speaking spanish] to get involved with gangs. But between ten years and seventeen years old, youre going to suffer a lot of oppression if you live in a neighborhood with the control of gangs. Youre going to suffer a huge oppression, or youre going to have a terrible life as a teenager, because youre going to have to go with your mom everywhere. They have to pick you on the school and brought you you have to be in the house all the time. So it is not a good place to be a young guy. It is not a good place to dress like a young guy. It is not a good place to live like a young guy. I mean, we have since tried to understand the population. Of course, i hope that the message was not, okay, lets see just the young guys, and lets forget about the other people. No. But i think that it have a purpose, get focus on these people. I dont know if i answered your question. I try. Just a really quick question. Okay, so guatemala put president in jail, puts a lot of politicians in jail, gets a lot of military. We know this because of the International Commission, partly, the United States Nations Commission against organized crime. Now el salvador and honduras, are they asking for [inaudible] would it make any difference . I think so, yeah. I think that a kind of ccs, its like an International Commission against corruption and impunity established in got mall a la in 2005 got mall la in 2005. 2000. In 2000. Under the command of the united nations. And i dont know if honest steps, but in el salvador, no. In fact, honduras asked, for example, they ask for [inaudible] president of honduras said that honduras have a problem. How [speaking spanish] displaced people, internal refugees. El salvador do not meet that equation. They say, no, we dont have a problem with internal refugees. We dont have, we dont need the help of [speaking spanish] [inaudible] so i dont no, i understand why el salvador Political Class dont want that kind of [inaudible] but, yes, i need that, we need an external surveillance in a country like el salvador and honduras. In el salvador we have two strong parties, Political Parties since the peace agreement. They never going to be agreeing mostly anything. Right now they agreeing the security, some security loss. But because the government, the left government make a great play. They show a video where gang members was decapitating 11 farm works in el salvador. So they, who gonna say no to the reform of love if you make [speaking spanish] yeah. Became viral. So, but if we talk about corruption, if we talk about things like [inaudible] in guatemala or a thing like [speaking spanish] the former prosecutor in guatemala, we dont have anything like that. We dont have the highest politician that we have right now on a process, its [inaudible] i dont know how to say a that in english. Yeah, substitute congressman. Thats highest level. I mean, its joke. Oscar, if you could speak to the issue of sort of not so much as a journalist, but sort of in a Broader Civil Society perspective in terms of Central America, and i say this not so much in the context or only in the context of the triangle countries. Because, to me, nicaragua, for example. We had this situation in belize, the gang situation is similar to el salvador with belizens being [inaudible] you know, those antigang workers. And so the revolution in nicaragua had a pulley different experience fully different experience in terms of the state of violence. And theres been antigang, you know, work in the communities to stem the violence, and you see that in the homicide rate, right . That was the first question, sort of what is the context of the debate about, you know, the state, our culture and violence, right . The second is that, you know, i think most people here to the extent they may or may not know our peoples in Central America would tend to think of us as hispanic, latinos or [inaudible] but the fact is we also have [speaking spanish] you know, we have [speaking spanish] you know, the whole slew of other groups in the region that are also coming here. In new york itself [inaudible] there are moms living in queens fleeing the violence. I dont know if you can speak to some of that too from the point of origin of some of these groups. [speaking spanish] okay. I dont know too much to say about that. When i made coverage about migrants, i never made that difference between one and another group. I understand that thats more coverage that i have to do here. When they arrival, for example, theres a huge difference between an indigenous from the north of guatemala trying to make his life here than a young guy from the capital of el salvador. For example, theres a lot of Indigenous People who, in fact, cannot speak spanish. I mean, i suppose that its twice complicated, create a good life here. But i started last year to make some coverage here with the communities of arrival. I published two articles three articles by now, and i think that im ooh im going to be working on it the next two years without leaving Central America. So thats my answer. I never made a difference, but i know that, for example, in the caribbean communities of honduras, for example, the people from [speaking spanish] in the frontier with the ca uribe, ive been in the nicaragua caribbean making in the first year of the investigation team, we cover nicaragua. We want to understand why nicaragua have the two factors that its supposed to [inaudible] violation are not so violence are not so violent in compared well salvador, for example. You had a recently war. You were poor. But youre not violent. I have an opinion, i dont have the answer, but i have an opinion. And my opinion is that because one side won the war saying one way, that corrupt people that today cover, run the government of nicaragua. Run the war and create society in that first years after the revolution. And i think that in countries like el salvador and honduras, we dont have a network of society. You have ten gang members who control like neighborhood with 2,000 inhabitants. How you can explain that . Because we dont talk with the neighbors or anybody. We dont go into the streets with a politician [inaudible] we dont do anything. We dont react. And, for example, theres one guy from el salvador, one of the leader of ms13, they have [inaudible] and he tried to, he escaped from prison, from a judge, and he tried to hide in nicaragua. And the people start to see a weird guy and called police and say, who is he . The Police Arrest him without any helicopters or tanks. They just knew that somebody called them. El salvador [inaudible] whatever you want, in his community anybody control. [speaking spanish] [speaking spanish] allow me one answer in spanish, please. Just one. Okay. Can i translate the question paris . Ill translate the question quickly, and then okay, okay. So the question just very briefly. Two questions. The first was in the first book did Oscar Martinez make a differentiationing of ethnic be differentiation among, for example, the 72 migrants who were killed. And the second question was how has the reception of the books been in spanish. [inaudible conversations] my first answer is, no. I never used that way of seeing things when i cover migration. I never focus on indigenous population. I mean, i do not intend to [inaudible] i made my effort, but thats just a part of the coverage that is need to be done. I mean, the route in mexico, its changing all the time. So no. No, no, i never did that kind of distinction. In that book, in a history of violence, yes, i dedicate some chronicles to talk about indigenous population in guatemala. I was very shocked when [inaudible] the frontier, in the border with the state of the north of guatemala border with mexico, they, the government say in 2012 that there is living a lot of [inaudible] in natural protected area. So they went there, and they [speaking spanish] that communities. And they sold that, like a huge success of the government. One of that chronicles is when i went there to saw people, they move from that area. Indigenous without [inaudible] who leave there because they dont have land to [speaking spanish] and, of course, if you see a plane who land near of you and a guy told you i gonna give you 100 if you put down all the boxes, youre going to do it. Thats normal, that you do it. Thats fair. You have to do that if you live like these kind of people. So, yes, theres some chronicle about life. And, of course, in guatemala like in mexico, its more easy lie about migrants because they dont matter, they dont vote. In guatemala its easier lie about indigenous population for the same reason. [inaudible] [speaking spanish] a history of violence no exist in espanol. A history of violence exist in english. I suppose [inaudible] some to chronicle, but we make that [inaudible] but i dont know. Its like in United States i was, im just [speaking spanish] [laughter] i thought that anybody going to read the book not what i thought, because its a book who talk about nobody. Nobody. Nobody. [inaudible conversations] because its a book, the beast, i mean, the first one, its a book about people from another country who cross another country. And in my mind, anybody nobody gonna read about it. But what a surprise. I think that have a good acceptance here in the United States. And when the people read the books, that happened with both books. Sometimes i dont understand if the people say, hey, congratulations for write that book. I appreciate the information. Or the people say, why you do that . [laughter] its a scary book without no solution. Be i hear that i hear that from several people. And maybe theyre right. I dont know. Okay. I think we have time for these three last questions, and then were going to have to start wrapping up. Yeah. My comment is a little bit related to what you just mentioned, and do you see hope for el salvador and for the region in general, and what solutions do you think could be or what steps could be taken to stem the violence . Okay. Thats the thing of opinions, okay . And thats my opinion. My answer is, no. I dont see hope for el salvador. My answer is, no. I dont see any particular signal of change in my country, no. I dont see politician who understand they are the problem. I dont think Solutions Real apply for the real [inaudible] no, i just see the same thing that i saw all my life. So, sorry, but my answer is, no. Hi. [speaking spanish] why is there so little mention of the failed [inaudible] and how it has affected both mexico and Central America . Okay. Is complex to explain, but yes. For example, i think [inaudible] mexico is developing right now with the contour and the south to border in the most tiny part of the country. Yes, i have the same answer. And thank you for your work. My answer is the beast dont explain all around migrant in mexico. Its an approximation to the [inaudible] problems involved with the organized crime. When i say organized crime, of course, i say mexican government. [laughter] if organized crime has no contact with governments, its not organized crime. I mean, its a joke. Mostly if youre in mexico or in el salvador if you are organized crime in mexico and you dont have contact with the government, youre not, youre not crime. [laughter] [speaking spanish] theres this fabulous activist artist that we work very closely in mexico, jesus rodriguez, who talks about [speaking spanish] organized crime which are the drug dealers, disorganized crime which is the government, and then you have, like, the transnational crime which are the big which we havent talked about today, the transnational corporations, extractive technologies, the gmos. All of this is also taking land away and displacing people and killing people and so forth. So you have crime of all these kinds going on, right . But the only organized crime are the narcos. [inaudible] yeah. I think that the word narcos is useful already. I mean, for example, in mexico the Mexican Organization of crime, of the 28 crimes that you can commit under the convention of palermo, they dont just, they dont commit just one. [speaking spanish] but because they dont have [speaking spanish] the role of mexico with the migration of Central American is more clearly now than when i was in mexico with this recently decision that they took about the train, about the deportations. [speaking spanish] i mean, when deportation from United States go down, the deportation from mexico go up. [inaudible] i suppose. I think that as a journalist i glad if i can prove that. Right now i just have an assumption, but i think that its pretty logic. I mean, when two [inaudible] i dont think anybody else is oh, or yes. One left. One more. Im going to make the translation very quickly. I am following your work [speaking spanish] [speaking spanish] [speaking spanish] very quickly, so how can we understand what is happening right now in terms of violence . Not only looking at Central America which is very important to understand what is going on, but also in terms of what is happening in the rest of latin america. So how can we understand in these globalized and these [inaudible] economy, so what is the purpose . So especially in the context of mexico or in the context of migration from Central America to mexico, to the United States, the commodification of these bodies, these migrants. Because we can see they have been some of the pie for the last 20 years. You mentioned in 2007 that when we see the migrants becoming, like, theyre selling, so selling these migrants from one coyote to another to another. None of the coyotes can take these my grants without migrants without paying the fees to the [inaudible] thank you for your question and, please, help me to add ingredients. I i gonna its a huge question, okay . If i have the answer [inaudible] i write another book just with the answer. [laughter] but in my opinion, what happened in Central America i believe in the north of Central America because Central America is very diverse. I mean, you cannot compare costa rica or panama well salvador and nicaragua. Thats not fair. That have no sense. In Central America i think our biggest problem is the construction of the state. I mean, thats why the first chapter of book called the emptiness [speaking spanish] the construction of the state in center and the north in the makeup of the states was made to protect a particular group of people. And thats a huge problem. [speaking spanish] i think that huge problem [inaudible] because the society was built with that kind of states. For example, ive got a good example. In the last seven months, i covered two Police Massacres in el salvador and published in el faro. We have to [inaudible] because the massacre of eight people in a coffee plantation, the police say that was like a crossfire. A crossfire. But, for example, zone yo who was sonya who was 6 years old when 16 years old when they kill her, had one bullet inside her mouth. Last week, for example, the department of state mentioned that massacre on their human rights reports, yeah. But we found congress swell low hernandez. She survived the massacre in [inaudible] he hear how his son beg for his life. He hear. And you know what happen when a mother hear her son begging for his life. And she never denounce. She just talk with us. Shes a mother who hear how the police kill her son, and she just talk with journalists because we found her. So what that tell you about Southern State . You have a mother who dont believe in the state even after they kill her son. What you can do with a society like that. What can happen in a society where a mother, in the best of case, go with journalists. And after we published the story, its very complex to explain all the discussion that we have with consuelo about how publish the story. She receive threats, and she have to leave his house. So i think that its a good presuming of what happened in El Salvadoran society and what we think about governments or institutions. We think nothing. Okay. I want to thank everybody. And i want to thank particularly Oscar Martinez. [applause] John Lee Anderson and francisco gold wynn. [applause] i want to thank everybody else here. Thank you so much. Everybody i see here who helped make this happen. Oscar can sign books. Theyre on sale here. And theres a student 50 off, so we can have a traffic in books. And diane, thank you too for the organization. Thank you. [applause] youre watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booktv, television for serious readers. And this weekend on booktv on our weekly Author Interview program after words, congressman darrell issa talks about his involvement in key congressional investigations including benghazi, fast and furious and the irs targeting controversy. Also the weekend the former head of the Defense Intelligence agency, retired Lieutenant General michael flynn, will talk about fighting terrorism, a look at the election of africas first female president and a report on the misuse of federal funds by states and local governments earmarked for the poor. Plus, an inside look at a homicide squad in maryland, and math professor Andrew Hacker questions if advanced mathematics should be required in schools. And those are just a few of the programs youll see on booktv this weekend. For a complete television schedule, go to booktv. Org