london all abolished prior agreements made at the hague conventions and would designed to some terror amongst populations. >> good evening. i served as the pres. and ceo at the national one museum and memorial and are delighted to welcome you to what will be an energizing conversation this evening. we we are especially thankful to welcome to the museum memorial. we're glad your here. we hope that you take time to come back and spend time in the gallery and spent time with the memorial. whilst the museum was designated by congress as the national museum of world war i the memorial was only given that honor in december of last year. so we are delighted to carry the distinguished honor of being both the united states national museum and mario that carries with it no federal funding but all the prestige that comes from the congress having taken action and pass something. [laughter] so that is reason to celebrate. the most distinguishing action of 2014 a bicameral bipartisan bill. we're pleased to welcome the union and thankful for the generous support of the bacon fund. i am pleased with all the cosponsors on a 60 km bike ride. one of the students asked me if they spoke british australia. [laughter] in many many respects we live in a world of his birth 100 years ago. forever forever changed by the catastrophe of the 20th century world war i and we live in that shadow experiencing its enduring impact to this day. one of those legacies of how people die or how they are killed or perhaps more particularly those killed were in the in the summer of 1915 during the 1st year world war i we saw it differently. tonight we identified three pivotal events is for you or for poison poison gas, the targeting of a merchant ship albeit with munitions on board as evidenced by the lusitania cargo manifest currently on display in the main gallery and the bombing of london. london. the rules changed them and they are still fluid to this day. please some of the oppressed and who will deliver presentation afterwards there will be a brief q&a. also tito -- c-span will be filming this. the heather preston studied history at oxford university where she the game involving journalism. she became a freelance writer of feature and travel articles and has subsequently reviewed books for a number of publications including the "wall street journal" and the los angeles times which has been broadcasted by the bbc and featured on various television documentaries. ladies and gentlemen, join me in welcoming to my speaker diana preston. [applause] >> thank you. well thank you well, thank you for the kind words. it is a great honor and privilege to be here in this magnificent museum. in this. 1915 the stages of the 1st world war as we have been hearing three critical events happened which signaled a change in the very nature of warfare. that is what i would like to discuss. riddled with irony. to talk about this i need to go back to the start of the 1st world war. a higher form of. well before the 1st world war attempts have been made at conferences to regulate the conduct of warfare between so-called civilized nations. not everyone was sure such international conventions really ever succeed. jackie fisher one of the leaders technical developments in the british representative at the conference certainly was not convinced. he believed that all nations want piece but they want the peace that suits them. he said he might as well talk about humanizing hell. violent. moderation is a facility. responsible for the arms race. but expressed by fisher and his american counterpart this gentleman here american admiral the 2nd hague conference in 1907 outlaw the bombing of civilian areas and poisoned weapons including asphyxiating gases. but what about war at sea? despite suggestions by both jackie fisher and admiral mark the attacking merchant ships from 1512 despite the arguments that these rules were outdated and impractical to the age of the torpedo bearing submarines these were left unaltered. what was what was the effect of this? legally the technology of the submarine would have to bend to the old even archaic rules. they prohibited attacks without warning on any merchant vessels. .. >> the disregard of the then international law. the german chancellor the gentleman here, the argued that his time here -- he said that british were just being typically hypocritical in harping on what he called a scrap of paper. by this he meant a treaty on which european partsúhad guaranteed belgium neutrality. his words about a scrap of paper were quickly taken up by the british and used as here in the poster. but i think his words are important for us this evening. because what heavings doing in those comments it is highlighting and it would occur throughout the war. but balance the respect for international law, and expediency. as western we have germany armies successful by the order of 1914, they were in camps in both the east and the west on territory. however, by end of this year germany's enemies had stabilized the position. in the west, we have a line of trenches running from 450 miles from switzerland to the north sea, as we have the cabinet from both sides neither can we break the stalemate? the discussion in germ was particularly intense because the leaders needed to achieve that quick victory that has been the basis of all of our planning that needed that quick victory before the enemies could fully succeed in mobilizing their greater military and economic potential. so what we see happening the debted debate in germany centering on world of free technologyies. aerial bombing poison gas and the use of the torpedo baring sub marined considered that those that were building on which we have an example here and which the product of his country's most advanced engineering he thought they had proved themselves already to be germany's most effective weapon at sea. already sunk several warships. he thought to disrupt alleys in particular to great britain lines of communication and surprise. according to one german officer a he fought for the employment of submarines and unprestricted new boat warfare arguing that it cannot spare the cruise but sending them to bolt of the ocean with their ships. he says ships can be ruined all shipping trade with england should cease. on february 1915 we have something extremely significant happening, germany announcing a campaign of so-called army restricted marine warfare whereby ally shipping sunk without warning in a war zone that germany declared british aisles but that we see on this guideline here. a statement that was in the u.k. but also by the united states president president ruddrow wilson and jennings a little later on. nevertheless, we know that by march 1915, german submarines were already lying in wait outside the british port of liverpool in the northwest of england posing to attack the q liner. this here -- as i said the largest most luxurious ship still providing a chance of atlantic service or be it it was in war wartime. but the german military that were at least at first less successful in persuading to authorize an airship to bomb london. under this gentleman here germany had a comangding lead in airship technology at the time when no airplane on either side had any significant bombing capabilities. one suggested that, quote bombing london would cause panic in the population wondering if that civil war could be continued. and another said that if what we do is frightful then make frightfulness be german salvation but frightfulness would be taken up in the british and mutual press like in america to symbolize some of germany's actions that year of 1915. however those officers failed to convince the kazi here, the second, why? partly because his feelings for his british relations, british cousin were highly. but he didn't wish to either kill them or destroy their palaces or indeed damage many of the land marks of which he was fond. as we see here, naval responsibility covered some of those airships that were doing the bombing, also between war winning expediency. he considers that to, quote, indiscriminate bombing is repulsive when it kills and names old women and children. but he went on that -- it is that in 30 places then perhaps what is in the floorway would gi way to something fine and powerful. all that flies he said, should be concentrated on that city. whatpoisonous gas? the debate here was less expensive because it was intended for use against troops and partly because it was a new option. no country developed poisonous gas as a weapon before the war began. but the military use of chlorine pioneered by this gentleman here harbor, a german who was head of the kaiser institute in berlin. harbor was working in such haste a major explosion in his lab which already killed three of his coworkers. but he argued that gas could shorten the wall producing a not only casualty but manic amongst the troops and start here of psychological warfare. by january 1915, harbor had a weapon sufficiently advanced for him to be able to demonstrate it to an enthusiastic jer is man high command. in britain meanwhile the debate of the military stalemate was seen by this gentleman here winston churchill at the time, first of the landing in the to attack germany ally turkey. churchill the head and official the professional head as the sea lord well responsible for brits tan defense those against submarines and against a bombardment because we're in the days before british air forces. although neither of those men agreed was some british admiral that is the quote submarines were underhand, unfair, and unenglish. they took very few measures to counteractç thexd new underwater threats. what about air attacks? despiteç3 churchill'su! skept çómyi]xdok abouti] airships which hexdi]qçó[ks pçççyóñ xí described as gas monstersi] orew3xdt( oiñi]xd enormousyyj7[yço+ñ(çóvçñr bladder ofñr the combustible itokwss$uxtt(ocç[ççççñrxdxdçi] bombing raids on longed. he institutedñdçw3w3 ao7(okf'iq t(ç blac-/0q5iu4ptqr as search lights andd8 guns.ñóhk?jçvrji]çót(ço[w3w3v]çbçñrw3ó[iz1vó0@&c$@sq i svávlew3 that he cafçt(wo#ivç do sow3 the primitive aircraft atçó the]i time could reach altitude arpgd 10,000 feet at which airplane flew. the world's first poison gas occur came on the morning of 22nd of april 1915 at halfs past five when the wind was favorable german engineered opened up 6,000 cylinders with gas releasing 168 tons of it on french and canadian trenches nearok ypres. damages eyes nose, lungs and causes death asphyxiation. release of#g the thickly greenish yellow cloud supervised and wrote that during wartime a scientist belongs to hist- but inv3 peacetime belongs to the world. although the french troopsu! abandoned theirñrw3 positions, here at yes ypres kpgd i cans did hold firm and german so fearing to advance into the gas to take advantage of the british. they have an idea of the effects of this gas. a german sorry a french general describes here what he wrote as some hundred poor fellows lying out in the church to get them a lot of air they could get that slowly drying water in their lungs. it was he said a most horrible sight and doctors quite. over next few day german troops launching several gas attacks this time on the british as well as on the frenching and the canadians. of course, allied soldiers simply had to improvise lean anyone clothes and soaked in their own urine as rudimentary mosques to combat the gas. but one death of a soldier described how he felt. he wrote of gasping gasping for breath and he said that all those my body recovered, i was wounded in my mind and that psychological effect was exactly what it did intend. meanwhile britains to picture them in this poster here he rei replied from comangder in field for means to retaliate saying that before we fall to the level of the greater germans, i have to submit this matter to government. little time to initiate production of gas. harbor meanwhile was regretting that the german high demand hasn't given him enough time and large ire supplies of chlorine he complained if they had followed my advice and made a large stale attack, instead of the experiment, he called it at yes, ypres germany which had won the war. but meanwhile beyond 30 eight days after the gas attack, they have german submarine 20 commanded by 30-year-old here. leaving her north to the base. welfare the german sea in washington sending a message to be published in new york paper for the following morning on the first of may people sitting in their apartments opening up their newspaper for something rather strange. german statement warning american passengers and others not to take passage on the allied ships at the bottom there. for that afternoon, and take a look at the that german notice to see specifically at the bottom that anybody intending to sail on ship of great britain or britain allies into the war zone do so at their own risk. but very few passengers changed their plans. motion of them like the two eloquent speaker of alfred here next to charles, the trusted -- in the statement by charles, that is ten years vastest of the atlantic that protect her from threatened attacks by german boats and as well as passengers, was carrying perfectly legally i should say many cases of remington rifle ammunition. and it was that ship began near the war zone on evening of the sixth of may that captured turner here. received vaguely a warning from the british admirability by the stage of war were breaking the german naval code and told him that german submarines that acted in the area that his ship was about to enter. to the passengers please not take on cabins to draw curren curtain not to show a light. but not to go below dc they slipped in public room and it was next day on 7th of may 1915 almost up to that this week. our ship released a tyranny just for violent. that green smudge of land on horizon reassured many of the passengers however, 2:10 that afternoon in the u20 had in his sights and ordered his torpedo officer to fire. a lookout on liner saw what he later called white streaks running across the surface of the waiter. water he was ic( was in the hand with a piece of chalk. two white license streaming out behind it. torpedo, of course a passenger boat he called a slight shock through the deck and then a terrific explosion. we know that the warfare was high in the air came raining down on deck followed up by secondary and tertiary explosion deep within the ship. this was a drawing done by a survivor but later published in illustration of london news. just 18 minutes later after immediately taking a lift that 30000 ton ship slipped beneath the waves. all of the private lifeboats fairly torn from their positions had dropped into the water. men and women leapt into the sea. and we have one american passenger who described his valiant rescue teat. he managed to pull deep into lifeboat but he heard from drifting debris arranged a him açç woman's voice saying in just a natural a tone as he had asked for bread and butter, please would you help me, you know, i can't swim. he said looking around he saw that woman. and she had half a smile on her face and she was chewing gum. i salute that woman. he pulled her in and brought her to safety. but that night as another survivor wrote, a procession of rescue ships drew along side. in queens town, in country court or cove as we call it today. says we're stuck amongok the paint peg and coils of rope on shadowy old war. of the 1959 people who had been onboardçóqw3qnbw3 thatç shipokq 1198 diedçów3okzvw3w q including 128t( citizens/÷y2dá of the thenw3 neutral united states.okt( the german government hailed to sinking as from the german courage and superior technology among those delighted was the grand who telegraphed to tell him about the great joy among troops at the news and to say that the single mindedly that the new campaign could be for faster the war would end. sitting on the eighth of may the very day after theing sinking here to sail just up rhe coast from the cove. we have the irish coroner reporting verdict of willful murder by the german authorities on the death of the victims. too late -- received an urgent message from the british admiralty halting that request of revealing naval secret. why? because churchill here and admirable fisher side by side coming to krit such in parliament about why they hadn't done more to protect. but there was somethings at work. fisher and churchill filled american rifle ammunition being imported might have exploded at the moment that torpedo hit with the ship's end. had this been true, it would have lasted britain propaganda and it was thinking her daughter. she had the world's sympathy churchill and fisher didn't want anything to be said but was undermine that. an it began orchestrating coverup to receive inevitable public inquiry that they knew would beheld into the last. but meanwhile in germany, we have lady here -- with her husband who had just returned about the morality of police. and on 15th of may only a few weeks after that first attack we knew she was so distress is she took her husband service revolver. witnessed to their balloon and shot herself. that same day harbor really promoted what was planned for eastern front to continue and refine chlorine gas to be used now as a weapon against the russians. but he soon returned to berlin to oversee work on the yet more lethal gas, this was. but it is now that we move on to the bombing campaign. on 30th of may 1915 kaiser finally permitted the bombing of london and it was told when the 30 days after the first attack 24th of that -- and on the 303rd day of the first world war -- 500 feet long, 60 foot in diameter and over a million cubic feet of gas took off to attack london. one of them has to turn back, but this session in 38 commanded by eric, toured alone at the top speed just over 6 feet mph. around 11 p.m., the air ship was over the london residential district on which he dropped the first bomb ever before on the city. no one was seriously injured but from there the air ship looped south over the city. dropping bombs as it went among the buildings hit where the dispillery and we have a picture of the devastation of that first raid on london. 7 people were killed. including an 8-year-old boy samuel ruben on his way home from the cinema, and 35 people were injured. deceptions describe how he released one of the most damaging bonds. his words here. he said, my finger hovered on the button but operated bombing, and then i pressed it. and we waited. minutes into past, four above the humming sound of the engine there rose a shattering law. a cascade of orange sparks showed upward and billow of smoke drift slowly away to reveal a red gash of raging fire on the face of the wounded city. in the aftermath a london coroner's inquest heard how a middle aged mashed couple had been trapped by their bedroom. they discovered dead kneeling by their bed as if in prayer. husband arm arranged his wife. the coroner's verdict on those killed were willful murder by germany. exactly as it had been on the three weeks earlier. in the united states arguing now about how far to press their process to germany about the loss and the demands that german ceased the campaign of our warfare. most u.s. public opinion had been massively holtile to sinking by secretary of state was wilson's approach to allies was becoming far too biased. it even b been worried about this before the loss of the lis listania he said to his colleagues you're not being fair. you people are simply not being true, you're taking sides. because a very gusty response to the president he went home that weekend to fix things over, and then on the weekend ended he resigned knowing it would be the end of his political career that he would be reviled. and he was correct. this is very typical of a thought of cartoon -- in the american press. what we're seeing at kaiser applauding the reason for resigning. but just this time in london admiralty officials were preparing their evidence to put before official inquiry into the sinking. sinking selecting and shaping the evidence. for a while they even considered the caps here. but they have the idea here to suggest that what happens caused to sink so fast was that she was sunk by two torpedo, not the single one that they knew perfectly well from code of german messages had been actually fired. accordingly they selected witnesses to back up stories and wouldn't allow those with other stories to tell to appear. and the inquiry itself placed the blame une gively on germany whose submarine concluded had fired the two or more tore torpedoes that hit the ship and in this museum of the inquires conclusionings. meanwhile while that had been sitting, public in london had been speculating about the possibility another raid. and this proved correct from the night 17th on august dropped bombs random before returning on stage to base. the san francisco heart of the city which some of you may know. this raid on londoners even further, in what we called zeppelin weather, dark finite london reporting much smaller audiences. and the american reporter who was in london described one zeppelin raid. he said among stars along gold ashes. it is stale yellow the color of the harvest moon. reaching from the city are touching autosides of the death messengers with their white tips. great shakes the city. this is the sownsd of zeppelin bombs killing burning and another onlooker recalled seeing a streak of fire shooting down straight at me. he said i stared at it hardly sprengding. but one struck the restaurant just a few yards away. then burning in the wound. with the streets for better protection. but what about that? on 25th of september, 1915 the british who had at first condemned germany's use of it just five months previously made their own military use of it during the battle of outhe winds changed and the british troops, the long turning piece had been sent with many of the 5,000 cylinders of chlorine so that the contents could simply not be released. worth german exploding some of the cylinder causing mother damaging gas to escape into the british line. in fact, as 1915 drew to a close none of the three technologies had had a decisive effect. aboutthen in spring 1916 we have the kaiser giving into u.s. demands, that germany ceased on smea campaign and resign in protest but admiral jackie fisher has a concerning letter. this is what he said. one german sailor who understands war. kill your enemy, without being killed yourself. he said i don't blame you from submarine business. i took down the same, myself, yours freezes. however, during the course returned to submarine warfare against merchant shipping, later this year. president again protested this time they refused to budge and in spring 1917 the united states declared war joining the allies which were two years had passed. we can see how potent the memory it still was. this was a poster that was copy in the music here. if you look at the original you sew that single word in this -- imposed in flood red each of the drowning passenger. in "new york times," american troops advance into battle in 1917 -- 18 shouting remember, and one common dayer said they failed to deliver to 100 american citizens face in liverpool which in 1917/18 had been delivered to millions american troops to the western france. what was happening now poisoning gas they use it for remainder of the war. either released in cylinders or more often as gasoline or a till rei shells we knew that as a the war conclusion allied stock for poison gases were much larger than the german ones. continued to lead whatever more for lethal gases and that caused spin downs as well as injuring eye and lungs. scottish soldiers badly affected because they refused to wear anything other than kilt on their bodies. harbor argued the first war that took for the use of gas is a way of saving could wantless lives if it meant that war could be brought to an end sooner. indeed gaffs a high or form of killing, the title of my book. it continued eventually the zeppelin performance was overtaken by a bout of british fighter planes and germany turned to these. bombers -- their attacks led to their stretch of the two services, and panic among cities inhappen and many deaths 18 children and school in the east end took a direct hit. but what were consequences of all of this after the war ended? after world war i conference reaffirmed the been on the use of gas but also in the search of stockpiling it. this was in 1995 pressure con that also ban the bombing of the swirl i can anding this about warning of merchant shipping. but, of course, as we go through the 1930s we see these challenged i apologize this is an awful image to show you aye italian used gas. japan took the same in her invasion of china. worried that germany like italy, might, in fact, having rectified that protocol might be prepared to use gas in any future conflict. we have britain, france building up stocks of gas to retaliate if necessary. they also took precautions by 1938 the british for example had 30 million gas marks with the public including heart respirator for babies. but it worked with attacking bombers would release gas. the bombers destructed power, have again been shown a year earlier in april 1937 during the spanish civil war germany and italian planes destroyed here killing 1600 people. and leaving the british archbishop to claim ordered for today, weapons of mass destruction to describe their bomb. for the fear of mass bombing and bombing in particular that when world war ii broke out in sepght of 1939 in britain everyone was ordered always to carry a mark with them and children were evacuated out of london away from any new blitz. first few weeks of the bombing offensive. a quarter of million londons would die. three to four million would flee and about as million as a million would become psychiatric cases. of course both sides bombed extensively in world war ii. london, as you see here suffered another blitz. later the u.s. use a mass area bombing to destroy, and here and tokyo. nuclear bombs destroyed huer hiroshima jumped by capitol hillation refused by the harbor. warfare but shortsen the war and save many allied lives. what about submarine warfare? on the opening-day of the second world war winston churchhill head and a german submarine sinking without warning, the british liner asemia off island. over 100 lifers lost including 2 citizens of the neutral united states. prop propaganda accused church hill of having had a bomb detonated to create what he called a new for his own political advantage. subsequently both submitted to warfare. 1942 we have sinking 8 million tons of allied shipping at the time an allied shipyard could chum out a some 7 million tons. it was only improvements and underwater protection of submarines and increased air cover but fought victory to allies in the battle of the atlantic. that no country use gas except for in japan and china. if that is first example of the success of mutual return. but has churchill ever seriously considered using gas? the answer is yes. as prime minister in 1940 he planned for possible use of poison gas as a last resort against a new german invasion. and later in the war, he shot off a me random that actually came to nothing that said this, i want you to see very seriously over the question of using poison gas. he went on i wouldn't use it unless shown that a, it was life or death for us. or b if it was shorten the war by a year. he said this is absurd against the morality on the topic in the last war bombing of cities regarded as forbidden not everybody does it as a matter of cost. it is simply a question of fashion, changing as it does between long and short skirts for women. but presidents roosevelt here he resisted popular u.s. calls to use gas against japan, in headlines such as in japan and you can cook them better with gas. but that is not to say that there weren't british or american casualties for gags. allies wanted to have gas splice at hand to retaliate against any active use in december 1943, john was lying in barry harbor in italy with a cargo onboard of u.s. manufactures. the gas. 100 german bombers attacked port hitting the ship and releasing a significant at ofs gas. one hundred million people died in the rage directly because of the gays. gas. today that 1925 geneva protocol that i minced actually not ratified bit u.s. until the 1970s, prohibits remains in force but poison gas has been used sense the second world war. number of second of it in the civil war in the 1960s by iraqi in the iran/iraq war in the 1980s the most infamous iraq use of gas brought to show you the ss john harvey, i apologize when iftion talking about the gas attack. most important was against here at halupcha when 5,000 were cull cull -- killed. iraq had poison gas during 1991 guflt war that didn't use it after the war iraq agreed to give up weapons of mass destruction and many were destroyed. ally suspicion that iraq could entertain some was a key stated reason for the 2003 invasion of iraq. also the second gulf war the only wmd discovered some 500-aged elderly gas shells. in 1997 we have the u.s., usr other countries including the u.k. fleeing into first a new chemical weapon and the destruction of existing. but of course you'll see in the report in the news in the civil war, in syria the gas and chlorine gas has been used. as the submarine off to second world war it became an increasingly important part of the municipal nations where we have the british of younger debate at the moment back in the u.k. as the bomb continues to be used. the claim with lesser and greater degrees of justification to be avoiding civilian targets. something which helps come easier with more sophisticated guidance systems. nevertheless continue to be made and the collateral damage accepted as an inevitable consequence of the understandable preference that deploy air parts rather than to dispose your own ground troops to greater hazard. so to conclude i think looking back over the century six or seven weeks in 1915 where we began, the three actions that we looked at still remain with the milestone. in 1918, this gentleman here, the american for john, commented that the one phase -- sorry again the one phase likely permanently to remain is systemic utilization of the scientific expert by the military use of poison gas supervised by nobel prize winning scientist harbor, science lost its innocence a fact underlined by the manhattan bomb project in the second world war, and a the potential today for biological weapons. but i want to leave the very last word on this to albert einstein who said this, from years after thened of the first world war, that it has become a pulling of the technology succeeded our humanity and we can only hope i think if he was wrong. and there i will cease -- thank you so much. thank you. [applause] >> thank you very much. at this time i would like to invite michael preston to the coauthor of the higher form of killing to come for a time of question and answer. either side on the auditorium at the bottom of the stairs two microphones i would ask that you come down at -- to the microphone if you're unable to walk to the stairs i can come to you. that, go ahead on come on back, walk over to the other one as well. >> thank you for the wonderful presentation, that was very, very nicely done. and next month i'm going to be going to the imperial war museum, in england i understand there's five imperial branches in the one i'm thinking about going to is at ducks ford with aviation is there ones that specialize in world war i or topics that you've talked about here? >> there's a talent museum that you can go to, go to our museum, but the main museum imperial one museum has some of the best exhibits at the moment on the first world war. special, and it is magnificent place to go to particularly at the moment. >> thank you very much. [silence] >> the germans seem to have a propesty to breaking international law, what was the reaction from the rest of the world when the lead advance the three events that you talked about tonight, what was the reaction from the rest of the world that there was any? thank you. >> the reaction from let me talk about the rest of the world. best to says the neutral world because the response of the allies would be predictable. but neutral world was very shocked by sinking and so many women an children onboard, and very shocked by the aerial bombardment of london. after all of this was a direct attack on civilians. i think people very conscience that they were seeing in the type of warfare. but civilians overcoming regarding as the target. also i think surprised and shocked at the use of poison gas. all of the rest of them that we've talked about this evening that is i think still pertains today as it did at the time and the particular revulsion in people's minds it seems to insidious something that you couldn't necessarily see at the time. something that you might feel the effects very long after from. but at the same time it is inconscience but at war. they saw that weapon of gas and used on the battle field but we have to have the fame. >> i've always thought of the zeppelin as isly. maybe because they seem so dangerous to me. from what i've heard did americans or british make any effort to development a zeppelin program of their own? >> british did make some attempts to build airships but were conspicuously unsuccessful. [laughter] and taken seriously -- and sort of touched on talk and tried to put their efforts into developing better fighter planes to deal with the menace but say at first it seems to people something quite not real if you read letters of people who witnessed these things great guy they said drifting across the sky above london. that something fantastic they used the beauty of the objects until bombs began to falling and the reality began to hit. and again you see from -- what a psychological impact it had that people no longer felt safe anywhere, any time of day or night, whatever they were dong. but from the reality of the strange bloody things floating about, up in the skies very quickly they're developed in this remmation. if you read headlines in british newspapers you fly the cruise of those depp is lins called and announced as baby kill ergs. >> i have a couple of things in today's star there was a very interesting article about the air attack by the japanese towards the end of world war ii where they best ran in put -- in the air, and balloons landed or came across on the jet stream and landed. mostly on the west coast and it was quite a good story about some of the innocent victims of that. but the other thing i wanted to ask who was related to you already spoke about -- about the response of the neutral world, religious leaders what was their respond and especially the pope's response since this was a touchy subject maybe europeans killing europeans. >> i don't know that the pope's response to be honest. i know from church leaders in the united kingdom who preached about a just war. and i know that in germany amongst various religious groups there but a rabbi in berlin talked about german victory at war but i'm afraid i don't know what the pope's position was on this. >> in the hague peace treaty i think 1904, i thought there was also the size of poisonous and the submarines, there was an explosive ammunition part of that. of course, all of the kills that took place with the artillery i wonder if you e elaborate on that. version what was in the first convention was the use of dumb dumb bullets. >> basically banned in the first hague in 1989 that was dumb dumb bullets exploding in the body with a bigger mess within it. rather than shot with an a ordinary bullet they continue to be banned. they were used among others by british i know in conflict before the first world war and used in the war in that i don't know. ordinary exemployeding shells in terms of artillery shells following work of noble and people were not banned in that sense. i read a little bit about fred and his role and you really have some excellent photographs of him. those were really fantastic. where did you source on those? >> we did quite a little work in archives in berlin. there's a collection of prince harbor papers there brought together in the area that they call dunham and intellectual heart at the time. and all of the different institutes which have been funded underneath egypt of the overall kaiser institute situated but a lot of photograph and memorabilia and assistance from the archive as well able to talk to us about harbor and share things and we found to talk about the within him and the story of what later happened to him because he was having to flee the country in 1933 come to england. see the country he had to devote most of his career and found himself rejected as an outcast no longer allowed him to enter the kaiser institute. doors were barred there. >> i remember reading that part. that was a real -- interesting part of his hurst the fact that he was jewish but that happened a lot, i understand. a lot of really brilliant jewish scientists that you know, left and not all of the them did leave which was unfortunate. >> it was very good that some of them left because they were the ones that helped to develop atomic weapons here rather than anywhere else. >> i say a quick on harbor comes back to somebody's question about the way that we deceived poison gas. when he did come to britain a number of scientists there had set up a trust to help their jewish colleagues find jobs in academic institutions in the united kingdom and a they were perfectly prepared to help harbor find somewhere to work, and leading member of the establishment in rutherford not prepared to shake harbor hand because he was in a