My profession luckily one of tonights guests does so its my great pleasure to introduce barbara and kate White Barbara butcher is the former chief of staff, director of the Forensic SciencesTraining Program at the new York City Office of chief medical examiner. Only the second woman hired as death investigator in manhattan and the first to last more than three months during her three years there, she investigated more. Than 5500 death scenes. She also created and directed the federally funded Forensic Sciences training at o. C. M. E. Taught at the New York University of medicine and new york medical college, consulted for governmental agencies around the world, and spoken at planning conferences across the united states. She joins us tonight with what the dead now learning about life as a new york city investigator and it she into the journey that led to her unlikely career revealing some surprising surprisingly life lessons and stories about some of new yorks most notorious crime scenes referred to by and this is for tonights second guest referred to by Entertainment Weekly as impos to outwit kate white is the New York Times bestselling author of the psychological thrillers the second husband, the fiance and the secrets you keep. Her other works include the bailey mystery series and numerous career advice books for. Women she formerly served as editor in chief of five major magazines, including a 14 year stint at cosmopolitan. Tonight she joins us with. Between two strangers. Its novel of a woman who receives a large inherited sense from a man shed only met once before. And what ties these authors together . I was told that anytime kate is a book and has to have a blood gore guts factor, that she is a reference that barbara is a reference for her. So im sure they have some Great Stories in that regard. So in that spirit philadelphia, please join me in. Welcoming tonights guests to the free library. Good evening. Wow, what a lovely introduction. Well, well, its such an honor for me to be here interviewing barbara. First of all, her book is just amazing, as said in the blurb. Its great. True crime. Its like a forensics manual, but its also this wonderful all powerful memoir that is just so inspiring. But as you just heard barbaras been so helpful to me, my career. When i wrote my first mystery 18 books ago, i asked, is cop wow, i need somebody to talk to about forensics. Have got any ideas . And he goes, oh, yeah theres a woman named barbara butcher. We love. And i thought, butcher god, hes poem leg. And when i met barbara and shes been so helpful to me. Barbara i thought, what we would do tonight is start with you. Just a bit. What a death investigator is. Because if of you are like me and you watch law and order or some of those crimes shows on television that the dramas, what they tend to do is mushed together someone for the medical office with someone from the Police Crime Scene unit. So youre not well represented. Law and order. So what we do. Well, nows your chance to tell it like it is. What did a death scene investigator . What did you do as a death scene investigator . You know its true, kate is. I dont think theres single medicolegal death investigator on television today. Of course, i dont watch all shows because i dont like to get aggravated. You know, i yell at the screen. What the hell do you mean, dna . Theres no dna theres mitochondrial damage. But heres what we do when most think about the medical Examiners Office or a coroner. They think in terms of autopsy, those are done by forensic pathologists. And those doctors in the middle of autopsy. And it takes long time. And theyve got paperwork, microscopy, work to do. Can you imagine if they had to be called out in the middle of an autopsy, run to a murder scene, what would they do. Just leave the knife like, oh, ill be back in a few minutes, you know, just keep this guy cool. It doesnt work that way. But when you do an autopsy, what youre getting is the cause of death homicide. I mean the sorry. Gunshot wound, knife wound, heart attack poisoning. Blunt trauma. But it doesnt tell you the manner of death. Is it a homicide . Suicide or a natural or an accident . A gunshot can be an accident or homicide. So what they is the context of the death. What happened at the scene. And so we have seen investigators. Most of us are either a physician or a physician assistants. I was. And some forensic anthropologists and folks like that. We go out to the scene, we examine in the body, we take photographs, we examine the scene, we do measurements, we we interview witnesses. We work with the police. And in way we form the context for how that wound occurred. Is there a suicide note there in the gun still in the guys hand or is there just a gunshot wound in, no weapon left . Or is it an accident. We write reports take our photographs and we give them to the medical examiner so that when they do with the they have the contact to the death. They know how it occurred. And now they can make an informed decision as to cause and manner. Thats the long. This is a long. The short version is i get to go around and poke into peoples lives to see how they died and. Theres nothing more fascinating to me about how did you decide to do this . I mean, you didnt wake up one day and go, you know, i think id like to be a death scene investor again. Well as a kid, that would have been my dream. I really understood it as a child i was quite curious, even nosey, really. And parents bought me a dissecting kit and a frog, a dead frog in formaldehyde and i dissected it. I saw, oh, wow, this is how this and this is where the muscles go. And then little kids in the neighborhood bringing me roadkill. So i could look at a possum and say, oh, you see those wavy lines across his back . Those are tire marks. You run over and his little chest cavity was crushed and they were look at that. So i always had i it was always somewhere. So but how did i get the job . Years later, i had been as a physician assistant in surgery, as a hospital administrator, and then things didnt go so good. I started as kind of a party, but then i became a drunk. Okay. I wasnt just having fun anymore. And i was a downhill slide, a bad one. So on the last night of, my drinking career, i was in a total blackout, a terrible one. And when i woke up this morning about no, it was this one to thank you, jesus that never happened again. You know, i woke up in sweaty sheets on the floor with a cut my head, no money in my pockets and no idea what had happened to me. My friends told me later they recreated as much as they could how i had fallen up the stairs, which is kind of hard to do unless. Youre really drunk. Anyway, life was not going well and. I joined aa. I walked into a meeting. I in so that no one would see me. I mean, god forbid someone would know i was an alcoholic. Oh, honey. Barbara, everyone. It was no secret. But anyway, i got to. I got sober, and one of the. The benefits you get in new york city for having a disability like alcoholism is its called epira, the Employment Program for recovering alcoholics. And they gave me all these minnesota multiphase myers briggs preferential occupation tests and those to my surprise said that i should either be a poultry veterinarian cook or a coroner. And i said, poultry. Why poultry . And the council . Well, you know, youre good with diagnosis youd be a good veterinarian, but not for puppies and kittens youd get to attached ratio or a chickens. They had beady little. Nobody cares about them. Do the chickens. I said no, i think ill take the dead people. So he said, all right, that sounds good. Corners a good you know, you can use all your little nosey ways, get in there and figure things out. And he, oh, call the one person in new york city who you think has the best job in the world. So i called dr. Charles, the chief medical examiner of city, and he said, certainly, id love to tell you about my work. But i went in and he told everything and we had a great time. And to my surprise, they offered me a job. They said, howd like to work for us as a death investigator . Who, me . Barbara. Drunk. Hmm im not barbara the drunk anymore. Im sober a year now and then i thought maybe i could do this. And by that strange, i mean you take a misfortune in, like being an alcoholic. Sometimes it leads you into something fantastic. Like the best in the world. And thats happened. Well, but it seems like in some amazing way, you found your way back to your desk. And if you think of you as that little doing the dissection. Hmm okay. This was the 70, right . I started in 92. Okay. For the with the medical exams. Right. Right still, things were i mean, women were in the workforce, but you were in a male dominated dealing with mostly guys and they were new york city cops. So you had to be on the at the scene with. How did you navigate . How did you work out so that they respected you and showed you that at the scene of the crime. It was not easy. I mean, the first couple of times like, the first time i went to a scene, i had my badge, you know, tucked into bill, very cool looking and so excited, nervous. And the officer at the door says, yeah, honey, can i help you . I said, oh, im from the medical Examiners Office. And i, you know, im here to see the body. And he goes, come on, crime scenes are already here. Theyve done. I was like, no, no, no, i need to come. And i was very hesitant and i thought, no im not going to put up with this. The next time i went out to a scene cop city. Hi, honey. How can i help you . I said, ill tell you what. Im from the medical examiners. You cant help me. But guess what . I can do. I can examine that guy for you. Can tell you what he died of, what time he died, how he died, long it took. And maybe even who it. And then you can take it to court and say barbara butcher, you told me. Hows that. Yeah. A probably dear here you tell the story that you share with me at barberie told me once that she found humor was great way to deal with cops and you know certainly in the some of those ugly like a crime scene maybe its a little bit of black humor but you use humor. There was one story you told me that made me so hard. And i think audience is. I think so. Sure. Sure. Well, you know, cops, they gave me such a hard time. At first i thought, you know, im going pay them back at some point here. And so i started doing little tricks, a little amusing things. I mean, the job was hard enough, so we needed to laugh, right . And i dont know. In philadelphia, do you have an apartment shortage like, you know, rent controlled apartments . No. Youre lucky here in new york, its very hard to get a good apartment at a reasonable price. And i go into one building and my drivers with me and theres a young cop, a rookie cop standing by the door of this apartment. And i said to my i said, hold my case in my jacket. Im going to have a little fun here. And i went up to the cop. I said, excuse me, officer, i heard that someone just died in a rent control department and its available. Could i just take a little peek . He said, what the lady. What are you talking. Come on. Thats horrible. I said, oh, no, no. You know how difficult it is. Ive been looking for a two bedroom, two bath for ever. And i would just love if i could just get first dibs on this place. And he was horrified. And i said, please, please, just let just stick my head. And i promise, i promise it only be a minute. And he goes, oh, all right, go ahead. So then i pulled out my badge and said, butcher. And he put another cop, who, again, a young guy, a rookie, giving me a hard time a couple at times, like, yeah, yeah, come on, hurry up. And i decided, well, let me be real nice to him. Im going to share with him some forensic knowledge. And the next time i saw it was on a case of a man who was dead, naked, laying on back in the middle of the apartment. I came in, i said, oh, good. Now we can tell what time he died. Cops said, huh . I said, well, heres what you do picture. A clock and this way is midnight 12. This is six three and nine. Now, which way is his point point . And he said, i guess 4 00. I said, thats right. The is pointing to 4 00. Now, how do you tell versus pm. He said, i dont know. I said, well, if the right side of the scrotal room is hanging down, thats a left side is pm. He was like, jesus son, a girl. I like that. So he goes back to the precinct later and, says, youre not going to believe what i learned the day the next time i saw him. He was so upset. I went back and told all the guys. Now they they call me clark clark. So i managed to get them back after that. You know, i think, i gained the respect of the guys by working hard, by working well and really about my work. So it all worked out in the end. And now i count those, those detectives and those Police Officers as my friends, my colleagues. Yeah, there were some wonderful that your book party they looked like they were right out of central but they clearly just think the world of you. Look, you had this you did this these tests that pointed you in you would be good at particular career you were then you talk to this legendary medical and he wanted you cut up come on board but what about actually dealing with a death scene and i mean i, i a lot of us would just pass out or gag or wed ask for the vicap fix up our nose. How did you with actually you know cope being at a death scene and there was a point when things were really crazy in the nineties where you might be doing several homicides a day how did you deal with just that exp and the grisly of it . And maybe we could talk a little later about how it took a toll, but just at a given moment, how did you deal with it . You know when i first started my training i was all full of vinegar. Im ready to go out there and solve everything. And then i was watching an autopsy. An eight Year Old Girl who had been raped and smothered and then thrown on a junkie and i horror stricken. Im right to the core of my heart. I was to see such evil, such horror. And i to the pathologist it was a dr. Jackie lee said how do you deal with this . How do you see this all day long every day then go home and live your life . She said, barbara, heres what youve got to do when you leave this place. I want you to surround yourself with things beauty, art and food and culture and dance and music and love and do something to make something in the face of death and destruction. I thought, thats a great lesson. Im going to learn that. And then others told me, detach when you walk a scene, you might see. A child murdered by own parent, what are you going to do . Because the horror, the emotion, the sadness washes through. And to do your job, you have to detach you, have to disengage compassionately. So i did that and i learned it and i really became good at it. I was detached but courteous, loving to the families. And then i as time went on, i realized something, bad you cant just turn off emotion. They all turn off and then started getting a little crazy, you know, id love to talk about that in a minute there was something you said. Let me ask you first did you ever get used to the smell. Mm. No you cannot get used to the smell of a decomposing body and forget that stuff you see on about putting vicks on your nose. No, no. That just makes you hate the. The smell of the decompose body is like nothing on earth. Its a warning. It says go away bad things here, bad things back off. And i never got used to that. And, you know, i used to wear natural fabrics and wool, but those absorb smell. So i learned to wear polyester the time, you know, what the hell . Wrinkle free smell. Free. But even i still cant hardly describe smell except that it might be like a strawberry milkshake made with garlic. Thats kind of to it. Like weird, you know, clashes, horror. But anyway, can i just say, you look fabulous. Natural fibers again. Thank you. One thing that i loved you said in book and you had said you touched on this with me ago and it really made a dent with me. You said that one of the secrets to your success and, i think you might say women are better at this than men and when you are examining a death and really determining what really happened here, because its not always straightforward. You said you learn to. Take your hands off ears and put them over your mouth. Thats right. Can you just explain what that means and how it you develop the gut that you had in determining what really happened . You know, i love to talk. I mean, i could go on forever. But when you talk, youre not right. So if i went into a scene and id like, hey, captain, whats going on here . Oh, looks like this guy was shot and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thats the thing arising. Its not observing. So take your hands off your ears. Put them over your mouth. Listen, dont talk. And i became very, very good at at just walking into a scene, not saying anything, just absorb or being the moment, the feel of it. How did this person live . And that tells you a lot about how they died. If this little or the white powder that says one thing, if this birkenstocks and a pbs tote with books on the shelves thats a whole life. Right. It kind of contribute to things. So i learned observe to take everything in and my boss time he said that he thought women made better death investigators than men and i asked why and he said well women are less invested in being right the time and so theyre more inclined to keep an open mind, he said. In other words, they dont get into waving contests with the police. So he felt that women were better investigate. And i dont know, maybe he was right. We had a lot of guys who were great and eventually more women were hired. And i recall one of my male colleagues the next time a woman was hired, i the first to last more than three months. We another woman, he goes, oh, great now theres more of them. We have to watch ourselves. And i said, more of what, you schmuck intelligent people and i know women now we got to talk about, you know, we cant talk around them. So it just it brought out the worst in me, you know, i just i wanted prove to them. So maybe it was the best to me. I wanted to prove to them that were going to do a much better job than of you. So i worked extra hard in that, boys club to make sure that, you know, we would shine that. We would really be the best. So it made us stronger, tougher and braver. Do you think its because women to us, studies show that more collaborative. So theyre they want to go in there, not just show how they are, but to collab beret and hear back and forth at the scene and get that input. Well. Yeah, i think so. I mean, i really enjoyed working with the cops. I come from a police family. My dad, a cop, and uncles and cousins. But what i really was the back and forth, the exchange of knowledge could walk on to a scene and and see a crime scene analyst. And hed be looking and hed say, gee, this is these blood drops on the ground. They have directionality. I