Takes us back when things were really getting rough during the campaign in 92, and she was with her when jennifer flours came out Gennifer Flowers came out on its, and what she wrote about hillary in terms of how she handled that, it was just focus, focus, focus not so much on that problem, but the republicans. So it was a real window how shes very political even as first lady. Host are there parallels to how shes approached this election . Guest i think so. As a communicator, i think you can read parts of that chapter and figure out who she is as a politician. Shes not the politician her husband is in terms of public speaking, but i think the first part of the chapter David Maraniss says this is the most well known woman in the world. And so shes capitalizing on that. Host Melania Trump has been a reluctant candidate. We havent seen her that that often. She did deliver a speech at her husbands nominating convention in cleveland, ohio. If donald trump is elected, are there parallels or lessons that she can take from previous first ladies . Guest well, shes sort of a mix, its interesting. Shes 46, Hillary Clinton was 46 when she was first lady. They have a small son, a child whos going to be 10 or 11 years old when they get in the white house, so theres parallels to other first ladies who may not have been as into the role or as active a first lady. Even jack by lin jacqueline kennedy, they had two small children, but behind the scenes she was wielding power. Bess truman didnt want mig to do with the role of first lady. I dont get the sense that Melania Trump is going to be the same thing as bess truman did. Its a different time, and the medias different. Host were seeing Michelle Obama on the campaign trail a lot this fall. Has she involved in the role of first lady . Guest i think so. I think shes, well, she just did an event that we covered with laura bush and Michelle Obama, and its almost a window into she started out with her First Priority being the kids. She was front and center about that. But then you can see all the things that that shes taken on since then, and it comes back to what a lot of first ladies do. These are causes its ease is city to get behind. Easy to get behind. So there are commonalities between, i think, a lot of first ladies, but i think shes grown in the role. Its hard also to have two kids growing up in the white house. Host the book part of a series looking at the first ladies, its available on our web site at cspan. Org. Whats your takeaway . What do you think people will learn about these women who served in this Important Role . Guest whether theyre really involved in policy like Rosalyn Carter or its behind the scenes maybe like a laura bush or a Michelle Obama, they have the ear of the president. And its going to be interesting this time around if its bill clinton who has the ear of the president or Melania Trump. You learn that they really, theyve got an impact. Some of them very political. Sarah polk was very political. Some of them didnt want to do it, but all of them play a role with the most powerful person in the world. Host and finally the platform first ladies have had. Eleanor roosevelt really tried to define that position. Weve seen that change in the modern presidencies. Guest well, its fascinating to watch them in the era of film and television because it has evolved from Eleanor Roosevelt who was out there and before Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, they didnt have that public platform. Michelle obama will be a tough one to follow, but when you think about the two people who may follow Michelle Obama, theyve had a lot of practice in the public spotlight, and it is, its a role of a lifetime for a lot of them. Host the book now out in paperback, first ladies president ial historians on the lives of 45 iconic american women, and the series, as we said, on our web site at cspan. Org. Mark farkas, thank you. Guest thank you. Every sunday at 3 p. M. Eastern from now until the election booktv will bring you authors who provide different perspectives on campaign issues. This week our focus is on foreign policy, particularly terrorism and how to combat it. For the next four hours, youll hear from fawaz ger geese, karen greenberg, Michael Hayden and job by warric. First up, heres fawaz gerges, the author of isis a history. Host so, fawaz gerges, welcome to booktv, and were so honored to have you today and particularly, unfortunately given the tragic events in orlando, your book, isis a history, is particularly relevant today. And so we want to have the conversation in the context of whats happened but also as your book very eloquently lays out the history of isis. And thats what we want to try to understand because many people focus so much on the brutality. But your book goes much further and much deeper than just talking about the violence. You talk about the ideology, you talk about religion, the religious dimensions which are so important for englishspeaking audiences to understand. But just as a starting point, i wanted to just talk about the first chapter as a beginning. And you mention many factors for the rise of isis and, of course, we both know as middle easterners that there have been many radical groups that have evolved over the last 30 to 40 years, and isis is just the most violent that has evolved. And you mention some of the causes; the u. S. Invasion of iraq, for example. You mention the failure of arab states, particularly after the arab uprisings, the fraying of state institutions, the economic collapse of arab states. And so and you also mention something that i think is very interesting is, is how isis is able to provide services for sunni populations in the same way that the Muslim Brotherhood did in egypt. And so i was wondering just if we can delve into the first chapter so you can explain to the audience how would you prioritize these factors. So what would you say is the most compelling factor as opposed to other ones that ive just sort of listed, if you can sort of walk us through how you would rank these different conditions and factors that led to the rise of isis. Guest thank you for hosting me, im delighted. I mean, first of all, theres nothing mysterious about the rise of isis. We know its drivers, we know the most important factors behind its spectacular surge. We know its world view, its ideology, its motivation, its recruitment techniques. We also know, i think, its apparent strengths and weaknesses. The starting point really about isis, eye us is a isis is a different name for alqaeda in iraq. Two sides of the same coin. Alqaeda in iraq was born as a direct result of the u. S. Led invasion and occupation of iraq. If you ask me of all the reasons you have mentioned what is the most significant variable in the rise of alqaeda in iraq, i would say the u. S. Led invasion. Why . It destroyed state institutions, it disbanded the army and the security forces, it was seen by sunni arabs in iraq who are a minority as the invasion and occupation as political in escalation of the Sunni Community because Saddam Hussein was a sunni arab. The dominant narrative in iraq that iraq was offered on a silver platter to iran and the new ruling elite, that they were brought by the americans. So all these factors contributed to, i mean, the u. S. Invasion of iraq opened the gates of hell. Host right. Guest its really created the rapture. If you ask me and i know youre working on sectarianism yourself, you have a book coming out, it basically owned the gates of hell in terms of deepening and widening the unrest between sunnis and shia. Here comessal zarqawi who came from afghanistan as an alqaeda lieutenant with fewer than 100 fighters in 2003 even though he was in iraq almost before the u. S. Advantages. Between 2003 invasion. Between 2002 2003 and 2006 when he was killed by the americans,al zarqawi was able to establish a social basis of support. Thousands of fighters. Because many sunni arabs in iraq welcomed zarqawi not because they believed in alqaeda ideology, but they believed that alqaeda in iraq was theirally in the fight g their ally in the fight against the americans and iran and the shia. So this is really the rise of alqaeda in iraq. And the question becomes that we know that alqaeda in iraq was defeated between 2006 and 2008 by sunni iraqis who turned against zarqawi and alqaeda in iraq because zarqawis strategy was to plunge iraq into allout war, sectarian fight between the sunnis and the shias. Most of the, i mean, attacks bizarre caw by were zarqawi were led not against the american forces, but against the sunnis. Between 2006 and 2008, what does that explain . The rise of isis. Why did alqaeda in iraq mutate into isis . And here, to come back to your important question, we have to take other factors into equation. Other variables. And here comes the deepening sectarianism in iraq after 2010, the president Nouri Almaliki as prime minister, the arab spring uprising and derailment of the arab spring uprising, the civil war in syria and, basically, here you have alqaeda in iraq was able to basically embed and blend itself within rebellious sunni communities in iraq and syria. You have a security vacuum, you have sunni rebellions against the shiadominated and the allydominated orders in iraq and syria. So the spectacular surge of isis was a direct result of the creeping sectarianism, the deepening sectarianism, the civil wars in alnusra in the arab east, the security vacuum that exists in iraq and syria and other states and the perception that somehow the arab spring, the peaceful, collective action could naturally change the existing order. That is the, albaghdadi, the leader of isis who, basically, replaced zarqawi is, basically, his motto is that change would come not by, through the electoral box, but through the barrel of a gun. And this is really the motive of isis, because it has tried to hijack agency, the agency of collective, peaceful action in the arab world with. Host yes. I want to delve into a lot of these issues in the moment, but i want to sort of push back on one of the explanations that you gave, because i think that this is often a media sort of error or misleading part of the Media Coverage of isis, and that is the economic dimension of this. I mean, you do mention this, but i think that as we both know having worked on political islamist movements for so long that the economic theory has been somewhat discredited. I mean, i know that we all know from the media that people, that isis is paying their fighters, that in the territories they control, theyre paying people, theyre providing services. But dont you think that this is much less significant of a factor than the ones youve mentioned . And i want to go into the ones youve mentioned, the next topic, ideology. Guest i think we cannot understand the rise of isis and the various alqaeda affiliates, theyre all part of what we call the salafi Jihadist Movement host yes. Before you go further, can you twine for the audience what is salafiism, jihaddism . Because thats how you explain the ideology in your book which is very important for people to understand. Because this is a new phenomenon guest absolutely. Host we had salafists, and then we had jihadists. Guest absolutely. I mean, the marriage is between salafiism which is a radical element aspect of wahhabiism. Its really a radical ideology, and this is really, it belongs to the golden days of early islam, the first Islamic State, the prophetic state of prophet muhammad. It wants to impose the past on the present. Salafiism, its the marriage between salafiism which is an ultra conservative, really utopian idea and jihaddism which is really a radical egyptian ideology. And for your own viewers, its really this particular modern ideology, because the ideology goes back to 1950s and 60s, salafi jihaddism in its current form was born in the values of afghanistan during the struggle, the u. S. Struggle against the soviet union in afghanistan. It was the marriage between Osama Bin Laden who represented ultraconservative salafiism and Ayman Zawahiri who represented jihaddism. And this ideology, basically all of them, the various the alqaeda central and alqaeda in iraq and isis and other affiliates, alqaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in yemen, other place, are part of the salafi jihadi family, a part of the family pool, the gene pool of salafi jihaddism. To come back to the question about the economic theory, this is a very, very important question. Im not suggesting, i would not suggest that economic drivers are the most significant factors behind the rise of other alqaeda central or alqaeda in iraq or isis. But what i would say is that you cannot understand the spectacular surge of isis without understanding what i call the massive developmental failure. And the massive developmental failure in particular in the arab world is a state failure. Its the failure of the state to provide bread and butter. Its the failure of the state to provide hope for the young people. Its a blockage in the system. Its abject poverty. I mean, on average we estimate that there are 30 or 40 of the people in the arab world who live either in poverty or below the poverty line. Unemployment among the semieducated youth is between 3040 , so you have a blockage in the system, political vulnerabilities and economic vulnerabilities. The arab spring was about what . It was about the climax of political vulnerabilities, political tyranny and economic vulnerabilities, the lack of hope, blockage in the system, unemployment, abject poverty. These two factors, political and economic vulnerabilities, created a vacuum, institutional vacuum, security vacuum, a vacuum of ideas that have allowed what we call nonstate factors, antihegemonic groups like alqaeda and isis to try to really offer an alternative. An alternative, whats the big idea that isis offers . The socalled Islamic State or the caliphate. So, yes, economics on their own, economic theory does not explain why isis has surged, but economic vulnerabilities are a critical component of why were seeing antihe knowledge nick movements in the country. Host i want to touch on something you mentioned about the Younger Generation because, of course, a lot of isis recruits and fighters are from the Younger Generations. And as we see from the tragedy in orlando even though the u. S. Intelligence has sort of distanced this young man, the suspect, from isis, he was certainly probably influenced by isis if not other radical groups. And i want to quote what you wrote in the book which was very prophetic especially in light of today events. And todays events. And you talk about the preachers, and you talk about the Younger Generation. You wrote in the first chapter the movements, propagandists and preachers openly boast that the tide of history has shifted in their favor. And i think this is a very important point. Whether it is on the cusp of victory or not, the ideology is here to stay, and the challenge is to shine light on it and make sense of it. Then you write that baghdadi and his cohorts represent another wave, a new generation of revolutionary religious activists. And on that point about religion, as we talk about the ideology in the next few minutes, i wanted to ask you because i think you raise a very good point later in the book when you say that isis is trying to redefine how islam is practiced. And i think thats a very important point because it is not only isis, but other Islamist Groups that have made the same claim after the arab uprisings, that its time to redefine how islam is practiced. So can you elaborate a bit on that in the context of isis ideology . Guest i mean, the reason why i take isis very seriously not because isis has a mini army, between 30,000 and 100,000 fighters give or take, the reason why i take isis very seriously not because it uses savagery and bar bearism barbarism and what have you. Remember, alqaeda in iraq pioneered many of the tools, the savage tools isis uses. Zarqawi, the savage practices. The reason why i take isis very seriously, because isis presents itself as an alternative to the failed order, point one. It presents itself as a [inaudible] the Islamic State. It tries to construct a kind of a utopia, a kind of a myth. And the myth is based on the idea of sunni identity. It tells the muslim, look, the state system has failed. The religious establishment has failed you. An extension of the state system come and join the Islamic State. So it constructs an alternative. And the alternative is based on this utopia islamism. In fact, the reason why isis represents in asia, i mean, really threat to the system because it challenges the very logic of the nationstate, the logic of westphalia, the westphalian system after 1648. And thats why, to give you an idea why this is very important, the first video ever released, the first after the capture of mosul mosul is the second largest iraqi city, it was captured by isis in uni2014 it in june 2014 it released a video called demolishing borders in which isis in very direct language promised sunni muslims to destroy the borders that were basically set up by the colonial powers between 1916 and 1920s and establish a new order based on identity. And thats why isis has been in the video, it showed its fights destroying the borders fighters destroying the borders between iraq and syria. Think how powerful this propaganda. Even many muslims who do not subscribe to the ideology of of the sunni i mean, salafi jihaddism, take seriously the idea of the agreement. The failed system, the institutional from jilt, the economic fragility, the economic collapse. So in this particular be sense, isis has done as well as it has because really it connects on this particular intrinsic level, the level of state failure, of the religious establishment failure and what have you. Host and i think that your point about the failure of statesponsored religion is very import