a metro atlanta native i grew up north of the city but i wanted to be at journalist since fourth grade. had really jumped into starting in high school but was editor of the school newspaper, university of georgia where he first started covering governor brian kemp. he was east candidate running against incumbent democrat back then when democrats ruled the state and he flipped the seat. maybe that was a first flip i've covered its way back in 2002 when frank kemp won that seat. since then have caused and filed the rise of center purdue is a republican governor and since reconstruction. documented nathan's two terms as a governor of georgia. and then really got into the transformation of georgia serving with john in 2017 he proved the suburbs of atlanta that were very competitive. almost flipped a u.s. house seat north of atlanta where i live actually. cover the 2018 gubernatorial race between brian kemp and stacy abrams relentlessly and of course 2020 which was the most epic election cycle i have ever covered for sure my two decades of covering georgia politics. culminate in the senate runoff sweeps. >> have quite a few more elections to go including won this year. that 2020 election could be trumped to use a popular overused term right now. we wanted to get back to history political journalism. when you are a student in june of this is be in? >> as a young student as an elementary school student i would nothing more, i grew up in the worst first era of the braves in oakville from last place the first place in the early '90s they became a dominant powerhouse and i was obsessed. atlanta journal-constitution boat reporter spoke to my fourth grade class. i became obsessed with covering the braves spread my mom told me it well, to do that mean you have to learn how to type bird at the time that seemed way too daunting i will do something easier i will be a doctor. so for a while there i had this dream of becoming a doctor even though i had bad grades in all my science classes in my ap exams produce high scope are recaptured the bug to go cover politics. the university of georgia the head of the school paper and working for the school paper got very involved in covering campus movements, political groups and the rise of at the time the rise of republican politician in georgia politics. twenty-one for better or worse politics and very much feel like sports and you are seeing some figures from the sports world enter politics that you probably would not have predicted while you were in athens people like herschel walker it's that race right there been a surprise to you at all? >> that's a great subway. it herschel walker someone like me who grew up in atlanta, grew up in georgia. i was not born with lead that you jake the first national championship in a decade by gripping stories about it for that is why he has such high name recognition for even folks like me i never got to see him play at your ga grew up hearing stories about his athletic feats and all of that. that helps put him in the position he is in right now is both donald trump and voiceprint and mitch mcconnell's endorsement he is at 60 -- 80% in the polls are using commanding lead over the rivals but of course your general election it's in the solid position to when the nomination and it is partly because he probably does not need met mitch mcconnell or donald trump endorsement depriving the same general area without their support because that high name recognition. he is still blank slate in some ways as a candidate for b do not know how he stands on a number of issues but we still have not had a sitdown interview with him. many other mainstream media outlets you have to talk to him because he is reserved his interviews mostly with friendly audiences. there's a lot there remains to be seen. certainly how he navigates a troubled past including allegations of domestic household abuse, erratic behavior and questions about its business and background still loom very large in that race. what i went to the 2020 and your book but i want to stay on this 2022 race for a while. how much of herschel walker selection by the gop do you believe is a response to how the republicans did in 2020 in the senate race? >> a lot of it is the response of wanting to have a new face, an outsider. georgia republican really republicans throughout the country partly in georgia are obsessed with the idea of an outsider per david produced no coat candidate for governor he ran for u.s. senate in 2014 with the outsider label front and center everything he talked about he was the outsider politician. and there no outsider quite like a walker pretty has lived in the same for three years he's been in texas and has come back to run for office. he wasn't involved in conventional politics bears a big trumped surrogate but was not involved in day-to-day politics in georgia. so he is running as an outsider's also running with the trump brand. it might not matter he might have been in this position even without trump's endorsement. certainly he has looked of his approach trumped slate that is coming to georgia and part of the former president image. his attempt to remake republican party georgia and his own mind and his own image. he wants to oust a lot of incumbents. who either in line with governor kemp feels a lien against him but a lot of this 2022 election is already hinging on the republican side of fascination you mention republicans with an outsider or at least an outsider label. quite frankly or talk about that in your book about when it comes to purdue and that also applies to walker. these are people who are not actually outsiders. they are very familiar to republicans in the state who have been paying attention for a while. is that fair? >> their first time candidates. they are a name brand figures but herschel walker has almost universal recognition. even though he himself is not very well known when he ran for u.s. senate 2014 he comes from of the most famous political families in georgia. study purdue's cousin was first republican since reconstruction produce some of produced network and his political operation at his side as he ran for this campaign. even brian kemp ran as an outsider for governor against the lieutenant governor at the time. but brian kemp evenly called himself an outsider, his office was directly across from the rotunda. his secretary of state. so you see that in politics everywhere. in georgia you see people who elected statewide officials say there outsider to the political journey even though they have been in state office for years. quicksort is the value of that? who does that appeal to? certain people know these are individuals who are not literally outsiders. but when they defined themselves as outsiders who do they have hoping to reach? >> the conservative basin states like georgia. you hear it over and over again talking to voters they want someone who can shake up atlanta. they dealt with the status quo. there is the sense there is corruption or there is gridlock they want someone who could help fight for them. republican officials in georgia. the same sentiment was how republican voters flocked with donald trump there tried to arm the same power that it's been hard for the candidates. who was defeated by brian kemp he had a real challenge with that because he had been a three term lieutenant government he was been a fixture of the state x-uppercase-letter who he was. to see those forces be turned against him the same sense that got him to be the front runner on the republican side in 2018 was turned against him just a few years later. >> at that appeal to the conservative base because of dissatisfaction with the base but the status quo and the gop? >> it is a feeling folks are being left behind. they are being forgotten. their values are not being embraced. it is a lot like donald trump's line in 2016 fighting for the forgotten man. there's a lot of voters especially in rural georgia feel like they are being forgotten. even though the people in power often times rural white georgians just like them. it mentioned the desire to turn out the base. the focus on quite a bit democrats are little more conservative about winning people from outside of their base. may be independence and even republicans. do you see that it all with the republican party? it seems like these candidates may not be able to be as successful in turning out people who are not true believers, is that fair? >> they believe in keep the coalition together. they keep the same coalition its power the office for years in georgia. the change we've seen it's on the democratic side. long time in georgia especially in the early to thousands the late to thousands we saw democrats really try to win back suburban voters who'd gone to the gop moderate middle-of-the-road voters who felt alienated by national democratic policies but that's what we had statewide candidates who embraced issues stayed away we saw that change was stacy abrams. not only did she support gun restrictions she boasted of her rating with the nra. statewide candidate called themselves in an irate democrat party saw this change with democrats playing to their base really for the first time aggressively rather than going. >> i saw what happened necessary with the democratic party at the national level. and even now the desire for the white house to appeal to people beyond a base is something that makes bite and the object quite a bit of criticism. he seen that in georgia as well? >> is a feeling among democrats that magic that happened in 2020 where you had a huge surge and turn out voters. am sorry and suburban voters. a huge surge in suburban voters in the base showing up in the urban parts of georgia. to re-create that won't be easy. especially without donald trump on the ballot. special topics or new circumstances we had during the pandemic with the surgeon mail in voting. that is why stacy abrams is running for governor right now. she is already kind of lucked down the image among liberals being this progressive icon. right now her campaign is revolving it can be kind of summed up in two words expanded medicaid pray that it's an issue she feels has a broader base of support. once she ties back to every question she gets. whether it be about infrastructure development, about the lights of rural georgia paid whatever it is she finds a way to tie that back to expanding medicaid. : : can you explain some of that to people? >> this wasn't some sort of overnight success. it took years of work from organizers who had this plan to start building the party back up and engage with bookers who are alienated from the process, if she was that matter to them rather than try to stick to the middle on every issue they started embracing their core authentic values whether that be gun-control or criminal justice reforms that included decriminalizing marijuana. whether that meant different taxing policies that involved more income tax credits for the middle class and lower income families. others played into this entire pitch that also included expanding medicaid which was issue 14, 18 and 22 and georgia. we don't have to necessarily alienate the entire time so they started pushing for democratic leaning voters particularly the younger voters of color who didn't vote often in midterm elections and skipped a lot of midterm presidential elections. >> but that's not the approach they took in terms of expanding the coalition. i think you talked about that a bit earlier. can you explain to people who may not know what the coalition looks like in georgia and how it may look similar? >> the coalition of 20 years ago was in tatters urban and mostly black democrats and republicans picked up the voters to the point now the counties that went 80% donald trump and 90% two years later so republicans are basically trying to bring out every vote they can in the parts of georgia knowing there's no guarantee of these are places where the populations are lingering and struggling in the long-term to keep relying on these counties but in the short term it feels like it's enough to keep them in power and that's going to be a strategy for whoever ends up the republican nominee that will be part of their strategy in november as well. in the suburbs it's gone not just but decisively undemocratic. the very populist counties in the northeast and northwest where more than a million people live combined, those are counties that used to be republican. they've grown more diverse as they've gotten more out of state residents who moved there and does the state has become more politically competitive they've flipped. grant county particularly was pushing 60% democratic support right now and those have become the cornerstones of democratic success while at the same time it's worth it in those counties and they've become much more important republican based keeping the counties so that's how we've seen the republican strategy sort of evolved and they are not necessarily aiming their messages they are trying to wring out as much support as they can and we are seeing that right now as the session continues with a number of cultural war issues meant to energize. >> so it's been a steady identity politics in every way possible when you look at the changing demographics of georgia and at the cities and rural communities the past decade have had that effect on state and national politics. >> they used to be the same. there is urban and rural and now there's four in the sense that there's urban, rural and each have different compositions and electorates and different issues. that's a challenge for any state, finding the sort of package of messaging that appeals to all of the various electorates because of different priorities. agriculture is by far the number one industry in georgia and voters in that industry have distinct concerns up in the metro atlanta suburbs and just a little further out who rarely come into atlanta but live in the excerpts and like it that way. >> what are some of the lessons learned that you've witnessed from the republican party since 2020 that can influence how things turn out this fall? >> and the one sentence they can learn from democrats in terms of engaging in voters who rarely vote. it became a huge roof of support for stacey abrams and joe biden in the last two election cycles to capture the votes and energize them who felt like they were not part of the process. that takes years of work and the republicans have done it. they knew this wave was on its way and they tried to build a wall to fight it back. who they feel like they are already sort of worked to energize their base in different ways. their biggest issue still continues to be trump. it continues to impact the race if they were the party's partiee so that will continue to potentially help democrats who can just kind of point across the party i'll. >> why do you think republicans were so aware or conscious about the waves coming in 2020 the gop has been incredibly successful for more than a decade in the state when it comes to some of the biggest raises. >> they control every statewide office. they control a majority of the congressional delegation so there's a good question why worry. in 2014 they won by eight points and 2165 points. republicans were aware of those efforts but we need to find those messages he's always interested in what the competition is doing so to what stacey abrams and her allies were doing to energize their voters and mobilize and connect, register, all those things you need to do to get a groundswell of new support they were paying attention to that and wondering how they could do it as well. >> how divided is the state republican party when it comes to trump? we know the former president endorsed a hand load of candidates and walked away from some that he seemed to be on good terms with back in 2020 or even before. are you seeing the party and not be completely sure where they want to go in terms of the future of the gop? >> i think georgia is the biggest test and it's not just because of the sheer number of candidates. it's because of the nature of the candidates that he endorsed. not just incumbents but a significant number of challengers with high name recognition who've been in the business for years and in some cases you've done nothing to alienate donald trump other than being supported by governor camp so georgia is the test case and we will see may 204th in the primaries if the republican mainstream voters come out behind governor kemp or if you see the sort of groundswell of pro- donald trump support crash a wave over the incumbents who were not backed by it. but certainly those issues continue to divide republicans and i know the stories been written a number of times and it's also included in my book the fact republicans now say we need to focus on 2022 on inflation and global supply chain issues in healthcare, different if she was priorities of the georgia voters and there is a faction of republicans that essay we will look at that but 2020 is the main thing right now going back to 2020 and all these conspiracy theories and falsehoods multiple election officials said there is no thero indication of any fraud and even the own attorney general but there is this obsession with 2020 and i saw firsthand at the rallies a few days ago when issues about crime, corruption still got to some of laws but when any of the speakers talked about the 2020 there was a roar from the crowd so it showed that the supporters at the rally there is still significant motivation talking about the 2020 rather than 2022. >> when we think of these officials who seem to be consumed with 2020, what is the end result that they are hoping for and if they don't get that, which is unlikely that they won't get whatever the end result is that they are desiring will they let go with this focus on 2020 and 2022 or is this just going to be the new priority? >> i was shocked in mid november of 2020 when we were still talking about contesting the election and the republican trump supporters were fixated on that. i had no idea it would still drag on but that's what's happened. there are rallies around the state still. somehow you would be reinstated. it has a number of meanings but there's a lock him up chance in reference to brian kemps or it becomes this energizing fuel to the supporters in georgia and i'm sure beyond who still think that there was a fraud. all those conspiracy theories donald trump has been talking about. >> paying attention to brian kemp for some time what's it been like covering his decreasing popularity with some people in the gop, has that come as a surprise or did you see that coming before this moment? >> six days before the runoff he sends out a tweet saying essentially he would be the best republican on the ticket and give a full support of endorsement. that changed the game. he was in a very tight race against the lieutenant governor and he went from close to a runaway around. he won all of the counties so that just shows you what the endorsement meant. you could see the ties were starting to strain a little bit during the pandemic and particularly integrated into this in detail in the book when they had an open u.s. senate seat against or not with the approval of the president at the time so that is where it started but we accelerated during the election process and afterwards where they wanted him to call a special session that could have resulted in the lawmakers trying to overturn. he didn't want him to verify to sign off on the results even though he was bound by law to do so and then there's other supporters who felt like he should be on the airwaves topping off the conspiracy theories. he used to be secretary of state and knows better than most people around the nation and georgia with a hands-on approach to all of these issues. he wasn't ready to go t