Entitled to look upon parents as having given hostages to our cause and i think the last two years have really given families across the country a frontrow seat into how many ways their children really have been held hostage to a system that for too many of them is simply not working. And so this is a book about what we do to fix American Education and and that is thats the reason for the title and the subtitle about American Education freedom, which im sure were going to talk about. Absolutely. We definitely going to talk about it, but before that, you talk about your childhood in holland, michigan. Tell us about growing up in holland. About your family. Were you inspired by a mentor or teachers that got you on your on your lifes journey . Sure, so i was born and raised in holland, michigan both my parents are, you know children of immigrant families from the netherlands and started out with virtually nothing my parents mortgaged everything when i was just a young child who for my dad to start a business. He was an engineer and he had a better way of doing things and so they mortgaged everything and raise some money from family and friends and started a business when i was eight years. Seven years old. I remember helping my dad paint the first building and then working throughout the years on the factory line. He one of the products that he developed and created was the lighted sun visor for cars and i was involved as a school or on that first production line a packing inspecting and shipping those sun visors and then later working third shift in the factory. It was a great experience. They were very hardworking and and very entrepreneurial and always gave my siblings and me the the messages that we could do and be anything that we wanted to become and and they really really provided amazing role models for me as did a number of teachers. I had growing up. My mom. First of all was a teacher a first grade teacher and then i recall my second grade teacher mrs. Walcott who regularly held up my cursive penmanship papers because i was i am a lefthanded individual and and it was tough for me to learn cursive, but she always she always encouraged me. So i remember that about her. And i also remember my High School Government teacher mr. Pothoven who really helped instill in me a love for politics and policy and and really american government. You know, youre in the book you mentioned that your dad passed away suddenly and the business was sold in your mom. Tell the story that your mom decided to make sure that all the employees were taken care of. I thought that was uniquely american exceptional kind of act and its probably worth knowing. Well, my mom and dad really were examples throughout their my mom still living. Shes just about 90 and and both of them were really committed to giving back and they instilled in all of my siblings and me a love of and for philanthropy of giving and they gave in many different ways, but what youve referenced after the sale of the company my mom took a significant portion of the proceeds and had it given out to all of the all of the employees of the company in the form of a unexpected and unanticipated bonus. Its really been interesting to see the results of all of the opportunities that you know, many of the individuals who were in leadership positions there. They actually went out and started businesses of their own in west michigan, and its really been exciting to see how some of the seeds that they received in the form of bonuses have really seeded additional opportunities and all kinds of new businesses and Growth Opportunities for others in west, michigan. Thats fantastic. So lets you dedicate the book to your your husband whos a phenomenal guy. Can we dig a little deeper . And can you give us a rundown on the rest of your family and grandchildren, which at least in my particular life is kind of the most important part of family these days exactly. Well, we have four children all grown and with families of their own. We now have 10 grandchildren and three step grandchildren. So its life is very full. The newest ones are two months and six months and its its just a blessing to have the voices of youth and the energy of youth around very regularly. Im looking forward to seeing almost all of them this weekend oh fantastic. Yeah, so you and i share a common passion for education reform education Freedom School choice Parental Choice. Weve weve had this shared passion for gosh at least 30 years. What what drove you to make this your lifes calling as an adult youve clearly one of the leaders in the country and youve stuck with this through thick and thin over many many years well, it really originated when our oldest son rick whos now 40 was starting kindergarten and and i knew we were going to be able to have our children go to school wherever we thought was best for them. So i really researched around the area to find the best setting for him and in the process of doing that i discovered this amazing little Christian School in the heart of grand. Kids really serving the Community Around it and began to get involved there as a volunteer and the more i volunteered the more i realized that for every child and family that was represented at the school. There were probably 10 or 20 others in the community. That would have loved to have that opportunity for their kids, but couldnt because they couldnt afford the tuition the families in the school couldnt afford the tuition and the school has to regularly still raise 90 of the operating funds outside of outside of the you know, those who attend the school from benefactors in the community and the more i got involved the more i realized that the way we the way we fund or the way we provide for education in in michigan at the time was not fair. It was not right that i could make those decisions and choices to have my child in a faithbased school. But those in the that community if they couldnt get into that little Potters House school have that option, so began working in a 501c3 nonprofit type efforts to make changes and and job youll recall early on as well. We thought that through either emotional arguments stories of people whose lives were impacted or logical arguments legal arguments. We could make the case and and compel policy change, but it became clear very quickly that the policies were very often controlled by politics. And so that led me into more efforts around the political piece of it that has has then i then started working, you know, nationwide in targeted states that we really tried to make the policy help help the policy changes come about through getting involved in the politics. So thats really an important point, which is that your motivation was. And by your family and the lack of and the just the moral implications of some children being able to have parents that could choose a school and others not but you melded civic and political. Involvement into this policy. Advocacy. Tell us a little bit about that because it i dont know. I dont know if people know how active you have been historically. In both the policy realm as well as the political room you talk about a lot in the book. Sure. Well, some people would think that my very first foray into anything regarding education was when i went to washington to be secretary, but that actually started as i said it started, you know, 35 years ago when rick was going to enter kindergarten and and i established a very soon after that a Scholarship Organization that helps help students help families in first and west michigan and then we spread it to all of michigan to help families access the education they wanted for their children and and then we in 2000 tried to change we were involved with an effort leading an effort to change michigans constitution, which has a very very high Blaine Amendment which by the way the Supreme Court case yesterday has a Significant Impact on but we we i had to change michigans constitution to allow for kids in failing schools and Family School districts to access other choices that did not that was not successful in 2000. We may have been a little premature but the energy of those who supported it was was very, you know distinct and i said we we cant let this energy go away. We have to help harness it and do something good with it and help, you know, do make some changes that we need and so, michigan had a a cap on the number of Charter Schools that you could have established in michigan. That was the only way to get that legislation passed a few years earlier and when that cap was quickly met there was little political will to change that cap at the time so we started focusing on legislators who either were supportive of or not supportive of lift. That cap and began political efforts to ensure that enough legislators were elected to office that would actually support expanding the opportunities for Charter Schools. So that was really sort of the first effort of bringing the the political piece into the policy piece and because of the success we had we then moved on and and i was at the time serving on a couple of Different National boards around advocating for school choice, but we didnt have that political piece in in the in the mix or in the effort and so that began a move toward that and and since organizations have started doing that political. Advocacy work. Weve had a lot more success in helping families have that power to find their right fit for their kids education. You know a lot of people probably that are watching our conversation here. Probably think look good ideas policy. That makes sense. You know, it just it just happens, but what youve learned firsthand over many years. Similar to my experiences that governmentrun politicized unionized bureaucracies. Just dont go quietly in the night no matter how logical your arguments are you have to win politically. And i think thats an important lesson. To to people that are, you know want to make sure that their child gets at the highest quality education. They have to be engaged civically and politically correct, right . Absolutely and i think its particularly important today as more families have have had a frontrow seat to their childrens education the last couple of years and for a whole host of reasons many of them are very disappointed with what they have experienced and rightfully so and so we see, you know parents at School Board Meetings asking questions and and we see, you know School Board Membership changing as a result and i would urge and expand that you know that that requests to get involved to making sure youre paying attention to who youre voting for for state legislators and for members of congress because these are individuals who will ultimately decide policy around education now and in the future and where we want more opportunities, we need to be supporting those individuals who are going to actually support that themselves. Yeah, so lets talk about your the not your nomination to be secretary of education in the confirmation process as a friend watching not not near the area code 202, but down here in miami was painful to watch it because of the vitriol and the ugliness what was what was your expense . And i know youre tough. I know youre really tough, but it was it was hard to watch to be honest with you and can you can you share some experiences in that during that time . And were there any Lessons Learned . Well, i obviously went into the whole process not knowing exactly what to expect because i had never studied the process before having never anticipated the opportunity to serve in a role like that so i didnt have anything to really compare it to but upon reflection and and in you know in having lived through the the whole experience i think in hindsight i would have been a lot more assertive about speaking up during the time in which i was waiting for the confirmation hearing and i had very little support in pushing back against the vitriol and and i also had a lot of folks a lot of great folks around me that were trying to help me prepare but many of them that really didnt know and understand the department of education or you know what i might anticipate in terms of subject areas to be addressed in the in the process. So, you know in hindsight. I have a lot of great ideas about how to do it differently, but i i did my best getting through and thankfully we had Vice President pence who could cast that tie breaking vote which you know was a historic moment. I dont think there has not been another cabinet member having to be confirmed by a thai breaking vote of the Vice President prior to that. There havent been many cabinet secretaries that were so unfairly. Treated as well and you handled it with a lot of grace and then the first day that you show up to work was an amazing in the book. Its an amazing story, please share that with us. Well, i think were referring to the second day when i went to visit a school in washington dc. No, well, we can talk about that too. Im talking about the the department of education has three buildings are reading. Yes, and you shook hands with every person in the building. I watched through every floor of every building and shook hands with everyone whos there now to be fair. These are very large buildings with lots and lots of work stations and many of them were populated and there were a pretty hefty number that werent but i shook hands with every every single staff member that was there every single employee and introduce myself and then went to the auditorium and and did some brief remarks to the whole group and that was that was great. It was fun. Although i did as i mentioned in the book. I did wear heels in that particular case and it was not a good idea. So so the the second day on the job you go to the school. Is that right the second day on the job i went to the to a middle school in in the district and we were we were very intent on not making it a big deal. We did not inform anyone of the visit. I just wanted to go quietly and meet the students and the teachers and some of the parents unfortunately someone on the other end on the school end apparently released the fact that i was going to be there more broadly and there were many protesters lots of media and it really the encounter was was very unpleasant in that. I was literally barred from entering the school and you know, it was was pushed on the stairs and you know, really sort of physically a front confronted and and so we had to leave the school. I had to leave with the the security person from the department of education drive away, and i you know, he said maam, i dont think we should go back and i said no we we have to go back and we need to find a way and so we did we got into the school and i had a great visit. It was a wonderful visit with the teachers and meeting a lot of the students and many of the parents who had come it was a great visit, but the result of that was because of the you know, the way i had been confronted and really physically barred from doing my job. I ended up having two days later. This was on a friday and on monday when i returned to work i was now protected by a full 24 7 marshall us marshal detail. They had done a threat assessment and found many many viable and alarming threats against me and so as regrettable as that was im very thankful that i had the action of those wonderful men and women and they really ensured that i could visit and go see places and do things that i needed to do as secretary. Yeah, this is a these are examples of just the really ugly political culture and culture in general that we we now have where people that you may have a disagreement with or the enemy and theres very little effort to try to understand the other side because why would you want to understand the enemy . You know, its just in its its personal and its ugly and its include increasingly violent. Its so sad to watch. So the another part of Washington Life is the entrance nature of the bureaucracy and you tell two stories in the book that i thought were. Great examples of this institutionalized entrenchment that exists much more i think in dc than other like local and state government. I dont think has the same degree of of just craziness about protecting people that that arent serving theyre there to you know, make a paycheck and not necessarily. Do their job so one one story was the story that you talked about about books in the basement and a claude large closet that you wanted to donate and the other story if you could share with us is the the receptionists that werent tell a receptionist. Im not sure thats thats only a term in the department of education apparently but to share those two stories because i think it does give you a sense of how frustrating it must have been as someone coming with a passionate desire to empower parents was confronted by not just a hyperpoliticized environment, but also this bureaucracy sure. Yes, the the books story is was a very frustrating one because we we learned early on that there were literally thousands of books being stored down in a some store room in the basement of the Main Building of the department. And so we said about to try to get them out of that store room so we could actually bring them to schools when i was visiting and anybody else on the team that was was visiting schools. Well, we found out that there was only one key to that store room and there was only one individual who had control of that key and he only was in the building very occasionally so we had to figure out actually when he was going to be there got that figured out and then when he went to open the door, he said but you cant take these books out yourself. You have to get someone from the union staff to come and move them for you. And and so im not going to allow you to take the books out today. So that said about a whole nother process of coordinating the one man with the key with the union staff that also had their own unique schedule to go and unlock and unload books out of that particular store room. Just an example of inefficiency bureaucratic processes that make no sense at all. And before i tell the receptionist story, theres one other one that it to me. Its just appalling that we can and do allow this to happen because im sure its not unique to the department of education. There was one individual, but i became aware of whose job required her to be on a computer all day long. And it