Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words 20160110

[inaudible conversations] james rosen examines the political career of dick cheny. Interviewed by dana per reena. Perino. James, ive been waiting for this moment where i could interrogate you. Its a pleasure, ive known you for a long time. When i was at the white house and then being at fox and were colleagues and also reareds and authors. This is a joy for me because ive loved your writing, and what you put together in cheny oneonone. What you helped provide is peeling bat the kurt curtain of what you call americas most controversial statesman. Do you think that dick cheney, hi role of Vice President and even after the administration, do you think he is the most controversial statesman. Guest its great to be with a you. Thank you for doing this. I think that certainly a fair case could be made for that. At as i write in the book no one on the right has attracted more vitriol from the left, more intense visit treeol from the lift, beside george w. Bush rifled nixon. Theres logical reasons this. Man stood at or near the pinnacle of power for four decades, from watergate up to 9 11 and iraq and beyond, and you dont stick around at those levels unless youre really good and really effective, and i think thats why the left has had such an obsession with dick cheney, you see this even in Barack Obamas comments today. Called him the worst president of his lifetime and theres a joke there but it speaks to, a. , dick cheneys extraordinary influence on our time, and, b. , the central role that he occupies in the intellectual universal of barack obama. Host dick cheney is in the left head. Guest and under their skin for sure. Host tell me about getting the interview, because having been the press secretary in the bush administration, at the end there, dick cheney was a reluctant interviewer. So, how did this come about, you had a chance to spend several hours with him, longer than even he had agreed forks he opens up about everything. Guest well, theres a back story here, as you know. From our dealings way back when. I covered the bushcheney white house for fox news in realtime. I traveled the world with dick cheney, on air force one. We went to europe together, the middle east. These are situations where youre hitting ten countries in eight days, and we also went to iraq, afghanistan, and pakistan. On the last of those trips i did with him in 2005, in pakistan, as is the custom, fox news, meaning me, was supposed to get an interview with the principle, the Vice President on the grind, where on the track. Dana bash of cnn got her interview. Took place on the side of a Snowy Mountain in pakistan. She was very upset because she felt the setting wasnt right. And then steve smidt, Running Press for Vice President dick cheney, announced they were cutting the trip short because it was believed the Vice President in his role as president of the senate needed to cast a tiebreaking vote in what was then a 5050 senate. And they assured me when we get back to washington, youll get this interview with the Vice President. We wont forget. Wont let anyone bigfoot you youre going to do this. As soon as the wheels of airs for two touched down, everybody not named james rosen forth about about james rosens interview with dick cheney. Host i with would not have forgotten. Guest the next time the vicepresident sad down with fox news was in february of 06, with britt hume, for the purpose of explaining how and why the Vice President had come to shoot his friend in face in a hunting trip in texas, and is a watched the interview i thought it would be a long time before you get to sit down with this man, if ever. Fast forward to nine years, and i ran into the cheneys in to washington and every ribbing from the Vice President over the fbi investigation. I said i have a bone to pick with you. The interview 2005. Ail city waiting. Remembered. I said if i he said talk to lou, lets do michigan. That was lunch, just the two of us for two hours hours and we stretched out what an extended oral history would look like. We agreed to do six hours two hours day for three straight days. No subject as offlimits, suit no reward for the enterprise and we went close to ten hours. Host let go back to the beginning. One thing i always admired about dick cheney people think because i was borne in wyoming i knew the chenys growing up. But i didnt meet him until i worked at the white house. But ive always appreciated what i consider his western sensibility. He talks about growing up out west, and i wonder if you could talk about of all the people you have interviewed there have been many do you see a difference in somebody that grew up in the settling he did, compared toes who may have grown up with on the coast . Guest this is a really important point you brought up, which is that to the extent that dick cheney has been depicted as withholding elusive, enigmatic, menacing, a lot of that has to do with who does the writing about deck cheney, which tend to be easterners, and to eastern ear, the way that westerns like dick cheney talk and come off alien or come up short somehow, as if theyre being withholing. In fact what has been my experience is that dick cheney tells you what he think but he hides in plain sight. But as a congressman he aplaced one of the most conservative voting records in the house and proudly notes that today in the book and says that even today it would be thusly regarded. But he had a lowkey style. Not a bomb thrower. This enabled dick cheney to talk not only to the opposite side of the aisle and also to various factions within his own party. And part of that has to do with the western style of his, which is low key, not attentionseeking, not bombthrowing, but direct and clear. Host one of my favorite things about being in meetings with the Vice President , how he would be very quiet, and he that can be a little intimidating when somebody is quiet you think, well, dont know what he is thinking or doing, and i saw an interview with him where he said he learned when he worked for forked. He learned its better for the principle not to weigh in in the middle of a discussion when you have a policy meeting where different staffers are offering their penguin because as soon as the principle says something, then that will shut down conversation and people wont offer their opinions. That gave me a different viewpoint why he kept violent. It wasnt that he was being secretive. I think he was listening. Guest he is a good listener but he also understands that the actions sometimes doesnt take place in the big interagency debate session but, rather in at the oval office afterwards, and he is also, as we noted, an avid hunter and i think dick cheney knows would e when to save his gun powered. Host i talked to somebody in preparation for the interview, and saying how much i enjoyed the book. He was saying back in the day on capitol hill when the wyoming delegation of cheney, wallop and simpson was there they were the most powerful delegation in the congress at the time, and i dont think that a small state like wyoming has had Something Like that ever since. Guest they were probably pretty well knitted up, better than most delegations. For ten years, dick cheney was the sole congressman, member of congress, from wyoming. Host can you talk to me about his career is remarkable before the age of 40, when in his late 30s he has his first heart attack. From the age of 19, where he was kind of a screwup, admitted screwup, not really knuckled down like his wife was where she was advancing. How does the get from the age of 19 to 34. That trajectory is amazing. Guest very few american stories like that. Youre reference to lynne cheney brings up a fung thing. I interviewed in the year 2000 for an oral history project i did for the talk magazine, then jetted by tina brown where they asked me to appropriate an oral history of dick cheneys life, culp minimum nateing with this reaching the vicepresidency. So lin cheney, gerald ford, and i asked mrs. Cheney and i said, its been suggested, maam, that of the two of you, youre the brains of the operation. Is that true . She said, well, i am the more aside reduce academic, which was a linking reference to the Vice President s undistinguished beginnings in terms of his schooling. He actually secured a full scholarship to Yale University host remarkable. Guest for a kid from wyoming. Host right, well, nbc nebraska originally. Guest he had never been further east than chicago. He had a brief sort of stay at northwestern in high school, and one of the things that disappointed yale was there was no big sky over his head. He felt ill at ease with the physical surround examination fell in with a highspirited group of people as the dean said. He tells in the cheny win ounce one how he and his College Roommates has situation where all four of the bedroom doors opened up on a common area but a the used one bedroom as a bar, and the drank too much beer and his studied collapsed and he racked up two duis by the time he was 19. The second of which found the future Vice President over the United States waking up in jail in wyoming, and he tells in in the book this was the wakeup call. Didnt have to completely give up drinking but had to set his path right. Plunked out of yale, went balance to wyoming, builds power lines for the county and paying his own way through the university ofom. Host my dads alma mater. Guest 96 bucks a semester at the time and founds, guess when, when im paying my own way orange im good student and got straight as, succession of internships and other visits to the capital. The found himself working for a congressman who later went to work in the Nixon Administration named don rumsfeld and they the beginning of his path. By the time he is 34, this guy who at at 19 was waning up in a james in wyoming was the chief of staff to the president of the United Statesful it is a remarkable story. Host did he form his political ideology before yale or after when comes back . Guest as of his time at yale he hadnt really devoted too much thought to politics at all. I think he probably shared some of the engrained conservatism of westerners, and his father as a matter of fact worked for the Soil Conservation service, which is a federal agency, so he didnt start out with hostility to the state or the government. Host his sister spent a career working for the federal government. Guest thats right. But i think his interest in politics started to accelerate once he met lynne cheney, and he majored in Political Science and only even quasiregret i heard him iter in ten hours had nothing to do with 9 11 or iraq or afghanistan or interrogation or detention or campaigns and elections. He said that he wished instead of Political Science when he was in college, he had studied history because he is a deep lover of history, and to spend time in his studies to observe this great communion and the discipline of hoyt, all the books he has read. Military history, diplomatic history. Host trying to catch up to lynn . Guest he will not assuredly. He said he wished he had studied history because in his experience this is someone who has been at or near the center of power for 40 years he said, government really is its not a science, its art, and it is the application of lessons from history, from past case studies to contemporary problems. So the only real regret i herd him expression he hadnt study history iworked with Charles Krauthammer when he did his books and when he was asked if i wanted to by a political pundit or columnist, what should i study, he said, dont to go journalism school. Study history. In the book the Vice President even to this day, its sounds like, is reading hoyt history books and seeing the parallel. Talks about marshal. Guest george children marshal. The interesting thing is i sensed a touch of despair in dick cheney by virtue of the fact its getting a bit harder, given the peculiar circumstances of the 21st century, to find useful lessons from the passive to be applied today because oof the unique consolation of problems, the nuclear age and stateless actors, asymmetric warfare and so on. Host that caught me because we are talking a lot about how to deal with lone wolf terroris who might be radicalized by the internet and using encryption devices in order to communicate, and so if youre looking to history to try to guide you, theres very little except for being sure to act and being stalwart all of those things. I thought that was very astute thinking. Guest and the fact is that even with when we set aside domestic atooks like in San Bernardino, when we become embroiled in overseas conflicts likes, for example, the iraq war, again, were have eight symmetric warfare practiced against our forces, and i think the Vice President would agree but i shouldnt speak for him the United States has yet to demonstrat we can decisively win an asymmetric war. Perhaps they didnt be decisively won. I dont know. Host one reason he is controversial is because, after 9 11, the country asked our Intelligence Community to do some very difficult things in order to help protect us. I i know he doesnt have regrets. Does he know how controversial he is and does it bother him . Guest yes and no. He knows. And the very last question i asked him at the end of the ten hours we had spent three days together in his study i finally allowed the words, darth avoider to escape my lips, and i asked him if he believes that kerrick to cure of them will prevail snail historical memory so that he is widely misunderstood. He said in essence he feels very grateful and privileged to have taken part in so many Historic Events and that he doesnt feel sorry for himself about the way people view him but that in general he doesnt spent e spend a lot of time dwelling on how people view hill. Host there was part in the book where he talks about on page 2349 your introduction the question you ask is, is it fair to say that your influence on bushs decisionmaking, wayneed in the second time . I really appreciate evidence his answer because i thought appreciatedded his answer because it showed such humility. By the time theres a second term a president i more surefooted and his experience he brought to the table was maybe even more necessary in the first term than the second term. Is that how you took that. Yes, but raises a subsequent question which i posed to him. If we accept your version of thing wes have a president who in his second term has greater confidence in Foreign Policy and National Security decisionmaking, why should that greater confidence on the part of the president led him to reject your counsel more frequently rather than accept it more frequently. He said in essence, nobody ever gave me any guarantees he would do what i wanted him to do but the string between them can be overstated. That is most distinctly evidenced in their dispute over scooter liby. As very president points out in the book, he and the president were on the same payment through the serge in iraq was concerned, even though quite strikingly, dick checkey and don rumsfeld and dick cheney and the joint teach chiefs of staff were not on the same book. Host the white house was a lonely place and the president had to convince many people. He is open about his differences of opinion with secretary Condoleezza Rice, i dont see it as personal, and thats what i took away from oneonone. Guest yes. In all administrations, as you know, there will be conflicts of personality, conflicts of ideology, interagency disputes and is a healthy part of the process. Theres no question but that dick cheney crashed with Condoleezza Rice and also with colin powell. The difference is that with Condoleezza Rice he never felt it became personal and i think they still have a cordial relationship today. With powell it did become personal and there is no relationship today, and i sense some regret on chenys part it turned another that way. This irony is a decade earlier when cheney was defense secretary and paul was the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff they served well together. In the runup to the iraq war that relationship did not survive. Host does he express any regret about the first gulf war and how that ended . Guest no. Absolutely not. I think he rightly regards it as a perhaps one of the last very clearcut victories for the United States military and wasnt foreordained it would be so. One thing he talks about in the book is that there was a culture within the top echelon of the pentagon in the 1990s where so many of the officers cut their teeth during vietnam when the civilian leadership didnt quite back up the military the way it should have, and so there was great hesitation to act on the part of the military amongst the senior ranks of officers in the early 90s. One thing that dick cheney and george h. W. Bush worked on doing was assuring the military officers, their men in need, would have the support they needed from the civilian leadership. Host what about on the personal side of things with his family . Because some politics go some politicians go through their entire career and keep their families a little bit at a distance. I think that is true for somebody like a speaker paul ryan. People dont know that his wife is their kids well, lynn liz and mary were very active and not only the campaign but also liz in the administration. Ive always admired how close he is to his daughters, and does he talk about that in the book . Guest someone while i was writing this book said to me, theres only three people that dick cheney is tight with and theyre auld name cheney. But that may be a function of their western roots, liz cheney surfed in the Bushcheney Administration in the state department in an important rome in the Near East Bureau which happens the middle east and she has been a coauthor on two of his books, his memoir and most recent one, Foreign Policy book. I think he derives comfort from having his family around him. I think it is a source of anguish for him, quite understandably, that occasionally differences of opinion about Different Things between his daughters has seeped out into the public view. And one of the most personal subjects we touch on in the book is his daughter marys decision to come out to him in an airport, and this was really struck me as fascinating because i knew it would be sensitive to ask him about hit. He had been asked about it before. Quite improperly a Campaign Issue that the Kerry Campaign used in 2004, quite improperly in his own enemy more, which he in in my time, he is writing a personal memoir so i felt free to ask about personal things. Said there were only two sentences in the whole book about this moment when your daughter commutes out to you. In essence she tells you and you responsible to the effect you love her and whatever makes her happy makes you happy and thats fine. I said, now, that steamed me to be a place of great i read between the lines this wasnt exactly a surprise to you when mary said this to you. And that somehow you had in thinking about it before that moment, made your way to this place where you could respond as you do, and a lot of parents cob fronted with such news might not be in that place and what advise would you have for them to get to that place so they can respond as you did. Hi made it clear he had not intended to write a book of advice for parents of guy children, but he did then tell me, actually it was a surprise when she came out to him. It wasnt something that we all kind of knew about and didnt talk about. I found that striking because even in the 80s, when discussion of gay and lesbian issues wasnt as prominent in everyday life as it is today, chances if your daughter is a lesbian you would have some inc. Long of that. The fact he didnt strikes me as someone who is deeply, deeply immersed in his career and elsewhere in the book, apropos of something else, he says something that bears on this. He said there was a time in my life where i thought that how well you did at something was a direct function of how many hours you put into or how many cups of coffee you drank while you already doing it. I had a feeling he was putting a lot of hours into his work and drinking a lot of coffee so such that he was surprised. Host if we can touch on his health. This is a person who runs a an amazing career in politics, then another in the private sector, gets recruited back into politics, and he really, as far as i know, never intended to be the Vice President of the United States. So he tells jokes about the best way to be the Vice President is to run the Search Committee. Guest because dick cheney led the Search Committee for Vice President and wound up as the nominee, a lot of people have seen fit to ascribe some sort of macveilan purposefulness dmachiavellian purpose to this, and the fact is he twice said no before acceding on the third try. But to go back to your question, which wasnt about the host the health. Digs to have thing truly singular political career over four decades now, and this man has exercised tremendous impact on the way we live our lives as americans today. Particularly after 9 11. Also the fact that dick cheney is a singular creature in the annals of human medicine. Doctors can point to other people Walking Around planet earth today who have had five heart attacks and a heart transplant. Doctors cannot point to anyone us besides cheney who had his first cardage event in the 1970s and cities around. So every advance made in cardiac medicine over the years somehow oater of in a kind of cardiac forrest gump way, cheney was there, needing that badly and benefiting. Everything you can do to a heart patient he has had done. Host speaking of the heart and not the physical heart. One thing that as a press secretary youre always frustrated with political figure or boss that is reluctant to talk about themselves is that i always knew that the cheneys were very generous people. But they dont talk about it. One thing i knew they did was provide the heart defibril raters to all the places of worship in washington, dc. No one ever knew about that. And so ive always thought he was a lot more generous than he was anyone gives him credit for being. Guest you mentioned his business career. He was ceo very well remunerated at halliburton, and that has given rise to just decades now of completely baseless speculation about the Vice President having been a profiteer off the does go to war. Its worth pointing out that the most prosecutorial book about dick cheney that exists one called angleer. The kind of book that takes every sequence of events and draws the most kind of darkest conclusion about cheneys role in each matter as it proceeds. Its a wellreported book but very and even barton goalman in angler came to the conclusion after vast review of the mans career and document, theres no reason ever to think no evidence to support the idea that dick cheney ever, ever did anything in his political career to profit, and matter of fact took a substantial loss to leave hall burt tan and go back into government. Host you talked to him and maybe you can explain his decision thats been quite different from president george w. Bush in the postpresidency to be vocal and to be a critic of the successor. Why does he do that . Guest i think he is a fighter by nature, but also he is in a setting where the man he served, who is at the top of the ticket and the top of the hierarchy in the white house, has followed his own fathers admirable practice of abstaining from criticism of their setsors in the oval office. So that leaves dick cheney to venture into the arena to serve as the chief defender of the bush cheney legacy. Its not the case that barack obama has in some indications deviated sharply from the policies of the Bushcheney Administrationful he has continually asserted. That the problems he faces as commander in chief are byproducts of bush and cheneys decisions, and so that call out for a defense from someone in that administration. Cheney knows he carries unique gravitas. The word ban died about in township when he was brought on the ticket. So he feels comfortable in that role. Host in talking with him, what do you think he wants his legacy to be or does he not worry about it. Guest the other day i had the privilege of taping the unveiling of his official marble bust at the capitol, ceremony tapedded be the Vice President biden, former president george w. Bush, the speaker of the house, and the Senate Majority leader and others, and cheney spoke last after the bust, which is a pretty good likeness, had been unveiled. And at the end of his remarks, cheney said, if anyone walking through statuary hall and the Capitol Grounds should ever pause to linger in front of this bust of me for more than five seconds, i would hope they would come away knowing at least this much, that here was a believer in the United States of america. And so that i think is our surest indication of how he wishes to be viewed. Guest but does he worry about his legacy . Host snow. One recent why he has been so effective over the years is because he never had his index tippinger to the wind. He is never a politician who will change his views just because suddenly Public Opinion has shifted and its politically convenient for. This do so. Host loyalty was an important part of any administration and the bushcheney white house it was prized. One thing i always think about politicians is if you see people who have worked for them for decades, you know that theyre theres a strong amount of loyalty and loyalty goes both ways. Did you talk to anybody that had worked for him over the years before you talked to him. Guest i just signed a whole butch of books for someone who bought 32 of them so that is a model for you all to follow. This is a former staffer of cheneys. One of four people who were called to the old staff, which is to say they worked for dick cheney in the house of representatives, in the department of defense and the office of the Vice President. I think theres four of those people left today. And he does inspire great lifestyle amongst his staff, but in terms of the relationship between him and george w. Bush, whenow talk about how much loyalty is prized by the president of the United States, in cheney one union one, cheney tells me that quote this is the wofford he used central in this relationship with george w. Bush was the fact that chipey has for sworn any attempt at running for the presidency himself, such that the president , when he received advise from dick cheney, always understood it was being photographerred proffererred with not one eye how it would affect him in the caucus. Host had cheney seen that in previous administrations. Guest sure. He said most of the reason peoples take the jo can of Vice President because it will give them a leg um on the nomination so it was central that bush never had to worry about whether there was a plate tall tinge to the advice that he was giving. Host how much did watergate affect his thinking. Guest more than he understood. One aspect of our very view interview where he came away funding himself a little better was how profoundly watergate shaped his thinking and his future career. Dick cheney made it his personal project when he was Vice President to do everything he could to restore the powers of the presidency, of the executive, that he saw having been improperly eroded during vietnam and watergate. This took concrete form, such as the war powers act, the budgeting and empowerment act verious other incent. By congress on the powers of the executive. Whether it was his legal posture in the fight of the notes from his energy committee, or war powers after 9 11, or other areas of policy, dick cheney always approached it from the point of view that the executive has to be strengthened, has to be restored, for the kinds of crisises and challenge he and george w. Bush were facing. Host what about the day of 9 11. Im always interested to hear the viewpoint of people who were there. I met a lot of people who were there that day. A friend owned a bar at that time and stayed open continuously for several days to make sure everybody had what they needed. Back the white house hoe president of the United States is traveling and cheney is there in the situation room. What did he tell you about that. Guest he narrates the day of 9 11 also manipulate by minute. You have to understand that all of us as americans shared in 9 11 in some way or other. My parents were bombed out of their Apartment Building here in manhattan. We all felt a sense of grief, shock, anxiety, we felt terrified. Right . But only one american that day had it on his shoulders to run the federal government in these hours of crisis while president burn was hopscotching about the country on air force one, looking for a secure place to land, and that was dick cheney, and he tells in the book how he is sitting in his office, Vice President of the United States, a sunny tuesday, his secret Service Agents bust into this office, drag him out of his office, down to the president ial operations center, this bunker below the white house, cheney was stunned help said the entire senior staff was stunned and he used a very interesting phrase in describing this to me. He said we all felt a sense of shock and awe. Which is a phrase ordinarily associated with the iraq war. He saw weapons be passed around. The Communications Facilities in the bunker, which were established in world war ii, are not up to 21st century scratch. Theyve got a ton of things on their handers like trying to ground all flights in the air and get their arms around the this thing and operating under terrible thought of war conditions, told there were six plain app planes north flour planes. Cheney what kicked in to help him assume the burden if you look at the photographs taken the bunker theres important peoplely, like Condoleezza Rices, the National Security adviser, others, karen hughes, but the body language in the photograph is unmistakable, that the lead person in the room, the undisputed authority, is cheney, what kicked in for him was classified training that he had received as a congressman in the member of the house g. O. P. Leadership in the 80s when it was contemplated the United States might face a Nuclear Exchange with the soviet union. He took the classified training sessions in something called continuity of government. The first precept of which, when you want to keep the continuity of the government, you want to keep the government operating in a crisis atmosphere like that, is to preserve the line of succession. The president to the Vice President to the speaker of the house. He very first piece of advice that dick cheney gives george w. Bush on 9 11, and he tells me in the book the president didnt like it, resisted it, ultimately listened to dick cheney was stay out of washington until we know what were dealing with. Host some people thing its because chip chip wanted to assume the power of the day and what youre explaining is he was wanting to make sure we had a president who guest he kept in close contact as best as those sketchy communication facilities permitted with the president at all points. Some of the most sense stiff things you can ask dick cheney about i went into the detail with him on this is shootdown order from 9 11. This is something that i dont think anyone anybody asked him about since 9 11 with the exception of the commissioners on the 9 11 commission. He conveyed an order to the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld in early hours, authorizing, instructing the military, to shoot down the airliner that eventually crashed in pennsylvania but which was thought to be heading for the white house, the capitol. And theres a tape recording of that conversation in a fairly stunned stunned don rumsfeld saying on Whose Authority but a the Vice President does not stand in the militarys chain of command, and he tells him, from the president. The president of the United States gave me that authority in an earlier phone call. The problem nils the eight sets of official logs kept of all the principles discussion on the horrific day, none of them record in the appropriate timeline in theonology any such consideration between george w. Bush and dick cheney in an interview in 2001 cheney slightly shifted his story, so i asked him about it. And i said do you understand why even people who are supporters of yours have a probable limp with thats because it places you in what is for dick cheney a very unusual position, which is asserting something for which there is no if e evidentiary record. He said, no. Theres one timer he gave me the cheney treatment. He said, look, theres been confusion, never been able to get all the calls in the exact times but this is one reason why he said the president and i were interviewed jointly by the 9 11 commission, which was a unique arrangement. Fast forward to iraq and what does he say about the false accusation that he lied or that he was complicit in a lie about wmd intelligence . Guest one oof the harsher assessments of chen chips are roll in the runup to to iraq war and his relationship to came from Condoleezza Rice. We had staggered ode are conversations these three days such that the last day would be reserved for 9 11, iraq, and something i called cheney addresses his critics in history, and wherein i just simply read to him the harshest things written about him by journalists, intellectuals, historians and former colleagues, and he disputed what condolezza rice said about his handling of classified intelligence and wmd. He but then went on to respond in kind and talk at some great length about an instance where he felt that Condoleezza Rice mishandled classified intelligence and its all in the book. But he also wants people to be reminded of the work hoff the Silverman Robb commission, the Blue Ribbon Panel that president bush established in 2004, to investigate how the Intelligence Community had got it so wrong about wmd stockpiles in iraq, and that report concluded that there was not a single instance where senior policymakers had pressured intelligence analysts in the runup to the iraq war to come up with the quoteunquote rite conclusion on iraq. Thats a very important conclusion of this Blue Ribbon Panel. Bipartisan and respected. I think its fair to contrast the conclusions of the Robb Silverman panel with what we see going on today where we have the pentagon inspector general, investigating claims by up to 50 intelligence analysts that intelligence and reporting analysis on isis has been routinely sanitize on its way up the chain of command to the president. That a father more serious and apparently systemic problem with the manipulation of intelligence, the National Security area, than i think anything we saw in the bushcheney era. One. Host one that that bush and ken cheney were careful to do is not blame the Intelligence Community, which i think was the right thing to to do. Does he talk about how they decided to stand in front of the bus for them . Guest he didnt put it in those terms host he is not a press secretary. Guest he is a westerner. Although you are as well. Host yes. Guest one of the things did with cheney was on day two, i was very determined that we should spend some time just talking about the Intelligence Community, the intelligence product, because not only is dick cheney famously southerned with the intelligence failure surrounding iraq and wmd, as a senior policymaker, but he is probably one of the longest running consumers of american intelligence product ever. His first classified intelligence briefing began for him when he was deputy chief of staff to gerald ford in the 1970s and continued for 35 years. I scud him was there a point where you could observe that intelligence product became pollitt side because when we hear the pollitticizeation of intelligence was there is an era or episode where that came into being . He talked about the evolution of the intelins community and the product he had the opportunity to review for so long, and so it changed when the world changed. After the fall of the soviet union, the Intelligence Community found it was very good at counting missile silos but not at tracking nonstate actors using disposable cell phones, and so when we did talk about the eight mocks before the 9 11 attack, and the claims by Richard Clark and others that the warnings were overlooked by mr. S bush and cheney, one of the things he said was there was no actionable intelligence that such an attack was going to occur, and he asked at the time, how was the Intelligence Community configured . Were they how many people did they have on the problem of al qaeda, for example, and so on . So we talked at great length about his consumption of intelligence product and the reverence in which he holds the patriots who work in that field. Host and vice versa sacker i think. Switching gears, what do you think or did you talk what brings dick cheney joy . Guest his grandchildren. There were times where we were in between tape examination he would get an update from somebody, either his wife or one of his assistants, saying that the gift had been delivered to the granddaughter, liked is and he wanted to know. I would say that his very involved with his grandchildren. Host i know that one of them is involved one of the girls is involved in the rodeo scene and he is the driver. Guest he has to hitch the horse in the vehicle that carries the horse, the trailer. Did that come off as a touch new yorkerist . Host a lat stat island. Guest the vehicle that carries the horse. Host that would be a trailer. Guest a trailer, mr. Chairman. He drives with that hitched up to his truck, and sometime thirds can from washington to wyoming. He has done that drive. And i think as we talked about earlier, he is a voracious reader and he theres probably an aspect of dick cheney that still likes being in the arena from time to time, but i think he has made his peace with his legacy. Host were there some favorites behind the scenes, personal stories, he told you that you liked. Things that happened in the course of the tapings. One of my chief aims in writing this back was to rescue this man from caricature of darth vader. This man had a profound impact on the way we live as americans and to kerrick caricature him does a disservice. There were several hours during the ten hours we spent together where he had this gorgeous yellow lab named nelson, who sat in on the floor and on the recordings the animals heavy panting can occasionally be heard, and at one point this menacing figure rises from the chair in hi study and announces we have teapots the recordings because, quote, i got to get my dog off to doggy daycare. Host i love that part. Did you ed ad eddy jet that houston . That he took is to dog to doggy daycare. Guest too you the term doggy alone other. A real flesh and blood person. Dick cheney enjoys a good. Can will have a drink with you. At the initial lunk where we sketched this out, we were at a steakhouse in northern virginia, and mindful of his epic cardiac profile, said lets be classic im going to be ordering a steak on this side of the table, cooked in butter, on scene over here. He said eat what you want she had a salad with salmon on it. Host did you feel about about it . Guest i guess if theres a concession occurring here. And one stray mention by me of gerald r. Ford launch met in a discussion of the ford aircraft carriers and delved into the mechanics but i was struck by how girl louse he was and engaging he can be and does have a sense of humor but its this clipped western iconic wry writ and sometimes his eyes tell you as much as his mouth does. Host i always felt like he was looking out for me. People might not understand what i mean and maybe it is a western thing, but my grandfather i didnt grow up knowing the cheneys. They lived in jackson, my family is from the other side of the state. Near in the black hills, nearer to the mt. Rushmore in south dakota but my grandfather, was very important to me in my life, was a republican county commissioner. Growing up in wyoming, everybody is republican for the most part so when you leave for the first time if you go east of the mississippi, your eyes are awakened to a different line of thinking and thought. So when i get to the white house, and im junior birdman, deputy press secretary, and fairly intimidate but trying to put a brave face on it. Ill never forget that dick cheney in a meeting turned to me and said id love to hear more about your ranch. Its in westin county, right, in wyoming . What about highway 16, which is wrote you get a great burger in wyoming. From through felt like i had a really good personal relationship with him and i dont think he knows that. Guest well, well circulate that. Host well let him know. I think there is a reverence for dick cheney in conservative circles that only maybe now is starting to surface and people are being willing to even say, yes, i am a fan of dick cheney and not afraid to announce it. Guest and that is true also of the political classes. He is regularly doing fundraisers and headlining fundraiser for the National Republican Campaign Committee and so on, and again, the frequency with which barack obama sometimes unsolicited invokes cheney, time where in june the president went on the daily show as his sort of paying of respect to the outgoing host, jon stewart, and was trying to sell the iran deal, the nuclear deal at the time, and he said, you know, i think folks have some idea that if on cheney which had been sitting there we would have got a better deal, thats crazy. Host thats not crazy. Guest it asked josh earnest, why did he bring up dick cheney . Does he see him also the antidick cheney . And of cower josh demuired and said he doesnt think thats how the president would characterize himself. But it i do think that obama sees himself as kind of delivered by providence to the oval office to undo the work of dick cheney in large pleasure and has been dick cheney who has been his chief critic in the obama era. There was a period in very memorable occasion in may 2009 where the two men gave seemingly dueling speaks e speeches on National Security subjects and carried live with a split screen effect that served in way that president obama couldnt have been pleased by to assert a parity between them. Host i remember that very well. You gave an interview which is something im interested in, is why should millenials care about dick cheney and learning about him . Out of the caricature. Guest sure. It may mott be a save assumption theyve receiving a kind of fair and balance it portrait of people like george w. Bush and dick cheney and not a caricature. The road answer is history always matters you. Cant know where youre going unless you know where you have been, and so thats one broad stroke, but specifically, george w. Bush and dick cheney have sad such a consequential presidency, and the effects of it are still being felt. Perhaps not as profoundly as the two men would like. They feel that barack obama has determinedly undone a lot of good work they did and they think that the current state of syria and iraq is attributable not to the original invasion of iraq in 2003 but to the failure of the current president to hold the line on some of the policies such as the surge, the withdrawal of american troops and so on. So, if you care about the middle east as it exists today, and how the threats from the middle east are seeping into our country as the residents of San Bernardino know so well, then you will want to read the book and learn how the mind of this very influential man really worked. Host what about his reputation overseas especially with World Leaders overseas . Guest dick cheney is still in contact with a lot of world leadsers. Still travels to the middle east from time to time. Especially in the middle east, amongst our arab gulf allies like saudi arabia, jordan, uae, egypt, qatar, dick cheney is still very wellregarded and seep as the kind of leader those allies wish were still in power. Host this interview originally ran in Playboy Magazine which most people pick up for the articles, of course. It was it packed a big punk. Were you surprised at the a big purpose. Big punch. Were you surprised. Guest a bit. When i live his house he gave me high praise. I said i hope you enjoyed this, he said it was time well spent, which for cheney is effusive. I had on my hands 80,000 words of transcript, which is this book is, the transcript of our ten hours of oral history, covering his entire life with an overview by me. I took a small fraction culled from different parts of the interview and published it also the playboy interview with dick cheney. The playboy interview host important real estate. Guest yes. Jimmy carter, fidel castro, Martin Luther king, the beatles, the founders of google, on and on and were not even talking bet the stars and comedians. And playboy was very pleased to have this. They even created a special leather bound edition of that months issue which was completely just brown with gold embowlsed lettering that said dick cheney, very rare. Playboy has a department that tabulates how frequently its content is picked up in other media. They tabulated that the playboy interview with dick cheney conducted by james rosen had occurred had picked up 650 million hits around the world. And i was in the audience at the washington hilton in april of 2015, when president obama himself commented on it. And he made the wisecrack we talked about earlier, which was i see where dick cheney says im the worth president of his lifetime, which is interesting because i see dick cheney as the worth president of my lifetime. Host what an insult to george bush. Point of personal privilege. Guest probably intended. Host right, intended to hurt president bush. Guest some respects but plays into a liberal which is that dick cheney was the power behind the throne and pulling the strings, and nobody knows the fallsty of fallsty of that as cheney with be possible exclusion of scooter libby. Host i want you to wrap up with something that dick cheney had not talked about before and that was his faith and religion. If you could tell us about that. Guest well, the one subject that dick cheney told me in advance he doesnt like to pursue in the depth with interview ever is is religion. Yet even there, we covered the subject in greater depth than he has anywhere else. And he talked to me about his sunday school experiences, in a midwestist church in kaspar, wyoming, where re crew up. His denominational migrations over the year and this innermost beliefs about his faith, and so sit in cheneys study, surrounded by all the booked and then National Soon to turn 74, having survived five heart attacks and a heart transplant to hear her same to me im a christian and believe in a hive hereafter, so if you love or hate endick cheney, you read this book, you will learn how this mans mind and his heart really worked. Host i loved the book and congratulations on a great interview and putting together, an important piece of hoyt and im glad you had a chance to do that. Guest im glad to spend this time with you. Host thank you. This is a heavy subject but crucially important for this nation as we head into the 2016 elections. That is the means by which deeppocketed business interests moved addresssively to steer the american political process there way be by and large they are succeeding. In it entireties and complexity, this is a star far, far bigger than any one book can cold. It includes such forces as the Koch Brothers and their farreaching networks that are as we speak raising enormous amounts of money to influence going to he president ial and congressional races and they have a huge network of donors. Also includes a whole form of super pac and what are known as dark money groups that are forming alongside pretty much at least half of the republican field for president , again, much like well talk about with the chamber of commerce, secret donors, deciding or would like to decide the outcomes of elections in the country. No limits at all on their fundraising on politics, and this is pretty new in american politics. But theres a reason that i chose the chamber of commerce as a subject for my book. And its because of the Single Organization really sums up at the story of how we got here to this area writs possible and by and large legal pretty much everything i talk about in this book operates within the law because the chamber has figured out how to use the resources it raises from major businesses to change the laws. Change election laws, change the landscape politically, change who is in congress, in order to create a friendlier environment to advance the agenda of its members and these large donors whose identities it keeps secret. And this story of the chamber helped explain why it is that we see congress, the courts, moving very quickly away in many cases from some very, very pressing needs that we currently have as a society. And its really making really changing the balance in washington from a climate in which the premises that you know, that congress is there to serve the public and primarily listens to big business first