By cornel west. This is a real treasure of some of the most important features and letters and publish documents of dr. King. What inspired you to do this project . Guest i just want to begin by saluting you in a minute you mainly that you were to do at the schaumburg. You do with such alec and spend such a vision and such sensitivity and your scholarship actually from a expulsion terms of this discourse im hyper incarceration among poor people is chocolate, is crucial. Such a thing to spend this time with you my brother, is a pitiful thing. Will think about martin king were thing about the same tradition to produce you, that produced me. Is one of the great moments in the tradition of a grand people who in the face of terror and instead was able to generate levels of love and vision an unbelievable High Quality Service to the least of these. He is a christian minister first and foremost and it is his calling. What i thought is important you and i know brother martin gets sanitized and sterilized every january. Host what do you mean by that . Guest and dignity of scum ever has a smile on their face and dicing hes the most dangerous man in america. And other black leaders are saying trying to organize poor people and critique vietnam before it was such power. Is now betraying the movement, he is unamerican. Is a traitor to the country and so forth. So what does martin dick what he says he never knew me. You never knew me. I am called to love babies in vietnam, babies in appalachia, babies on the southside of chicago, in harlem, in ethiopia. Im a christian minister and for me justice is what love looks like in public just like what love feels like a private. Thats martin king. But theres no martin without ella baker, without stokely carmichael, without to many of the freedom, so on and so on. Host talk about the santa claus education with respect to africanamericans. I think part of what youre describing is a kind of historical amnesia for the fact that dr. King was not always well loved within the black community. You cite a remarkable poll from late in his life that says that 55 about can americans do not support dr. King on vietnam and popular i think it was the poverty for the comic opera guard. Its true. Its very sent. The of 72 of americans across the board all colored and 55 of black people disapprove of martin. Whitney young said, youre sitting back the black freedom movement. Martin said what you say it will not teach too difficult in the kingdom of truth. Interest trouble against come within black leadership over where to go. Martin was saying corporations are going to dictate what my conscious action is. Host i know the difference between right and wrong. Guest absolutely. Big money and all the thrills and assets of power is not going to determine what i say. Martin was like john coltrane. He could couldve been doing my favorite thing for the rest of his career, been a multimultimillionaire. Young brothers were going to go free just. What is coltrane doing . Being true to himself. This to me the real standard of what we need in this present moment. Weve got a lot of black people for example, who say they love Martin Luther king, jr. And i talk about speaking truth to power but they dont want to speak truth to the present power. See what i mean . They want to be in accommodation but thats not brother martin. Theres nothing wrong with being accommodationist if youre honest about and acknowledge what our limitations of but dont lie to yourself and act as if youre so progressive and prophetic when you really are just a cheerleader and a bootlicker. I mean youve got to be honest and candid about these things. Host we are going to get to that crucial but if you want to ask you more about the book itself. So first of all youve defined the radical king, but in terms of the text itself, was the radical king hidden in plain sight in terms of the actual textual record of his word and his wisdom . Or did you have to pull out after passengers and texts are more well known speeches dedicate . Im curious as to the compilation itself guesstimate when my dear sister Coretta Scott king to me legendary, this level of dignity and grace that is beyond description, when i matter in 1986 i gave a speech at u. S. Capitol when they brought in the statute of brother martin and others, 1986 before the king holiday. This is tenures into the annual fight, fbi was informed members of congress that he was the most dangerous negro, thats exactly right. She said to me on my first date martin said, i bet you never met a black socialist, have you . She said no. Musical conservatory music. He said yes. Because his hero was, and i just want to share this, the great sociologist, professor indian university. But also Norman Thomas. And, of course the essay in the book, the bravest men i from the. Who was Norman Thomas . Phi beta kappa from princeton class 1905. Union seminary 1911. Turned down the big church on the side of new york. Lost his christian faith, became a socialist ran on the socialist party for many, many times. But, of course spoke at the march on washington. Minello brother in history of john brown myles horton. We can go on and on. Brothers and sisters fundamentally committed to the freedom of everybody including black people. Martin says, nor ms. Thomas is a fundamental part of who i am. Is not as much as benjamin will base was. He is legendary, iconic for good reason but hes a part of who i am. Host and i share a story that you you allude to the story but i found it fascinating. In 1952 dr. King and karen are dating. Not get married and decided a passage from this letter at the top of the book but my sources gave me a little more detail. The passage here indicates an exchange of ideas and romance between dr. King and karen at the time. Was interesting they talked about having both red edward bellamys 1887 utopian social looking backwards. For some reason i forgot that the full name but in this letter he writes and im going to read what he said. He said im not a conventional baptist minister. I believe in the social gospel. Its not enough to say seoul. We need to change society so the sole will have a chance. My father was a capitalist but i dont want to own a lot and ignoring peoples needs is wrong. Im much more socialistic and my economic theory than capitalistic. Capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It takes the necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. I find that sitting because thats 1952. Guest thats our brother laying it out already. When he goes back to jim crow south, he has this legacy inside of them. What i love about martinsville and in some ways sets them apart from most black people, the most black leaders amount was a part of it, stokely is, too radical of. Its a radical love and the radical freedom, radical freedom in a radical love which means from the very beginning he is leading a rather know im a different kind of the negro. This is Benjamin Davis in harlem. It was not host a. Philip randolph. Guest thats right. But at the same time when it comes to mainstream black education public and to mainstream black leadership being explicitly social like that is not the best way to win the black masses. Martin is letting her know. Shes right there with them. Shes going to be pushing him on pacifism, pushing him on critiques of empire. Host this also comes back to the bigger art in which you make and what i see as your chance to make an intervention, shall we say a radical invention. Annually in the run up to the king holiday we get a lot of the riverside speech, a lot of antiwar speechmaking upon dr. King, a dr. King made but it denies the truth of his own story which is not that he began swept up in history that took him like a tidal wave into montgomery bus boycott. He fell on the other end with rustin by side and give him counsel on how to fight the good fight and that it was just about civil rights and was just about a seat at the table and just by being able to be first class citizens but in fact he already came with the kind of economic blueprint builtin. By the time you get to the vietnam war, by the time he seen the limits of legislative action and the sub Rights Movement hes already been committed to fundamental revolutionary change. The kind of change that as you estimate others have pointed out ships this country from an Oriented Society to a people Oriented Society. Guest you are at the be right. When we talk to our dear rather harry belafonte, one of the great Freedom Fighter still alive who meets martin very young. You see that wonderful picture of them in the basement the first time they meet rich dialogue, harlem at the center, but belafonte brings the legacy of the boys and martin king bring the legacy of Benjamin Mays on the one hand but also intellectually curious young negro genius or atlanta. Of course, offer dana, his brother. Its a family affair. Its a family affair. Theres no martin without his family. Just like theres no martin without the movement. Family helps making and thats very important. I think especially for young people and they think especially of the ferguson generation who i love so deeply, i think they are courageous. Host philip agnew. Guest philip agnew is a giant in so many ways, but also brother tory and william the great kinglike figure of our time. All of these folk who gain deep inspiration as well as analytical elimination for martin king. With the recognize as part of a tradition and isolating individuals on a pedestal, no that the recognize just like you untie we are who we are because somebody loved us. Somebody cared for us. The question is how much loving and caring will what we do in the short time we hear from mamas womb to tomb . Thats what martin understood. He got a whole lot in his 39 years with early on hes bringing his critique of capitalism, not a trashing of moneymaking or ugly rejection of markets it was a very subtle analysis that puts poor people and working people at the center. So its not dogmatic. Anywhere been he can get and use, it could be marxism feminist later, it might be from liberalism in terms of critique, it might be even conservatism. Doesnt have to be patriarchal family by family is still important. Church. Doesnt have to be Patriarchal Church these days, you know. Host one of the things you emphasize is that you call him a revolutionary christian antichristian bluesman. I think its obvious that hes a minister to us all, reverend dr. Martin luther king but in some ways his actions it lost in his space for. It seems to me part of what you would say here is that his spacewalk was critical to his radicalism. Talk to us about that. Guest one is because the brother would never sell out. You only sell out when youre expensing spiritual blackout period youre only willing to sign yourself when you reach a conclusion that the crowns of you hope to the longer can be sustained at a spiritual level and, therefore, life is only but the goodies available in time and space and im going to get as many as again i can or as much status as again. So the kingdom of god has become a brand. No. The black freedom struggle has become a commercial. No. The beloved community has become an advertisement. No. We live in a highly Market Driven culture cash rules everything but it doesnt have to prove doesnt have to rule me. Lo and behold, im a jazz band and blues man, im in proposition, flexible, fluid using any weapon akin to about these poor and working people beginning on that side of them. With a lot of people love martin king because he loved White Brothers and sisters. Thats a beautiful thing. That shows the spiritual maturity but he didnt go to jail because he loved White Brothers and sisters. He went to joe because he loved black folks. Hes in the patty wagon for a half hours in the dark with a German Shepherd on his way to prison and when he gets out he could hardly walk and all he could say is this is the cross we must bear for the freedom of our people. Thats spiritual. Thats deep. You know this brother aint never going to sell a. Host its a deep connection to life that jesus lead right . We can say least of these but he meant it. So his diagnosis of the world was that these people my people are truly the least of these not just here in america but globally. Guest im glad you mentioned jesus because martin was such a jesus loving free black man the way malcolm was an allah loving free black man. The way Toni Morrison is a free black woman rooted in her own particular brand of catholicism and literary genius that she manifest. Theres a connection between having your spiritual rich rich and deep and being free being in the world but not of the world. And for martin it had everything to do with the palestinian named jesus, like myself. Host lets come back to the connection between christianity and the blues tradition. That may not be obvious to every reader or every listener. What do you mean a christian bluesman . To talk about improvisation but i think you mean something more than improvisation. To talk about catastrophe. You named for catastrophes that Martin Luther king anticipated and recognize. How does the blues help one get with catastrophe . Guest would have to begin with Ralph Waldo Emerson who said the blues is a personal chronicle of an individual catastrophe lyrically expressed, lyrically expressed. So b. B. King said nobody loves me but my mama. She might be gyrating, too. Thats a catastrophe. Every force in the world and the cause will against you pick the one person you thought you could depend on. How did b. B. King sing that song . Thats the b. Side of thriller. How did he sing that song . Style, smile a little help from lucille but in lucille is muddy waters the whole tradition is there in his playing and in his voice, meaning the black people, we are blues people. Weve got the world something about love even though weve been hated and despised like approaches. Without the world something that just as even though we been treated so unjustly and unfairly up until this for a moment. The blues tradition is a tradition of the people who look catastrophe in the face lyrically come expresses it critically examines it candidly speaks about it, courageously lives and is willing to die for that love. The love the islip brothers sang about. Curtis naseo people do you ready. Thats the love train. When i say the christian bluesman, in the face of american terrorism jim crow. In the face of being hated by so many people. He responds like b. B. King with a smile with style, landmarks in the past that constitute wind at his back to engage, truth telling, witness bearing, living and dying for the people. For the least, for the poor and for the working people in the hes not against ritual, he just recognizes that its very difficult for rich folk not to fall into what we have how did the johnson brothers put it . Falling in love with the intoxicated with kind of the bourgeois. I forget. You know the line i talk about. You get intoxicated with the world. Power and wealth and so forth rather than telling the truth and the bearing witness. Host when you use this term radical of i think is the last definition of broader definition of christian bluesman, but you say that its the radical love that king thought and that of his life by with the radical love that daily made itself die. That the ego had to be killed which is the ego which is our brand, which is our attachment to the world and the immediacy of the things that make us feel good. In order for a sacrificial self to emerge. So this radical love so how did he teach it . Wasnt in the sermons . Once again how he governs himself . Was it is your capacity to be courageous in the midst of chaos . Guest thats the profound question because its hard to know exactly how anybody is able to muster the love of courage, vision and service that a martin king or baker or dorothy day does. Dorothy day wrote one of the great eulogies of martin king in the catholic worker when she said he was someone who really did die every day. And there is no rebirth without death so he is reborn every day. By taking a shower, like a baptism, fresh and vital vibrant. Host you cant get stuck on holy saturday. Guest holy saturday, killing got. Holy saturday god is dead but theres evidence even to radical love flowing from the blood of the cross that easter is on the way. Most christian in america subset with easter, dont want to talk about good friday. Dont want to talk about jesus killed as a criminal. Like we have Political Prisoners right now. All of them are bearing witness and the empire comes down on them. Martin understood that are not just christians but for any human being wants to reach a level of integrity, honesty and decency as a Long Distance runner. Youve got to kill something in yourself fear. Youve got to kill something in yourself. Your obsession with position and status and wealth. Youve got to kill something in yourself this is the sum of its all about you rather than you being a product of a larger tradition of oak loving you care so you affirm and getting a sense of selfconfidence and selfrespect, and our young people especially the ferguson generation are so hungry and thirsty for this process in learning how to die killing that fear, standing in the face of the police, police look like theyre in baghdad rather than in ferguson. They stand there with courage and, of course, the fundamental question always is how do we channel that legitimate righteous indignation through love and justice rather than hatred and thats martins question. Post that you spent some time, 20 years ago writing about nihilism amongst young people. Guest thats exactly right. Host do you find that this journey into kings radicalism helps you better understand young people from 20 years ago where you were writing race matters today tragedy i think so. Thats why for me this is my most important text out of 20 some books and 13 edited books. Because this is more of the core of what him and what im all about than any of the text. Im dedicating get to my blood brother west who was the most christlike, the most coltrane like. The most kinglike person that i know. That is true for so many of us. Theres so many folks on the ground who were kinglike. When you look up on television, not too many teams like coltrane like im not too many christlike. You look on the ground, these folk out here doing magnificent work in local activists and grassroots again they have. They die and learn how to live. In the new testament christians must die daily. Kill the egoism kill the fear kill that in the in order to somehow be liberated