Democracy. That is a shame. It is a disgrace. It is really an open scandal. And we need to do something about that. I would totally embrace the comment that we need you as much as we can, first of all to change our policies we dont incarcerate so many people. And secondly for those people have been incarcerated i think we do over stigmatize them. We do hurt their ability to come out of prison and get on with the gainful, productive life. I wholeheartedly embrace the sentiment of that collect. Host gelled in florida. Caller good morning. I have a question for professor kennedy. Some of us look towards affirmative action us to blacks entering university circuit. I happened to be one who graduated from a Major University, white Major University in the state of ohio. This was before affirmative action. Far too many times there is nothing said about those of us who were participants in the collegiate atmosphere, collegiate i guess academia, that existed before affirmative action. What is his position . What is his position on some of us . Host joe, tell us your experience. What youre did you graduate . Where did you go to school . What was it like for you . Caller i graduated in 1959 from kent state university, and the makeup of the school at that time, i guess it was probably around 7000 students which there was no more than a maximum at best 100 minority afroamerican students from ohio and the surrounding area. State rather. But the experience was one of high, a highly competitive environment, that there was no assistance provided to us with respect to Holding Hands and what you might call a mentor. But we were there just to survive, of which we did. So i was wondering what his take would be on that kind of situation that prevailed before affirmative action and in a totally white environment . Guest its a wonderful comment. Of course, its true that africanamericans and other racial minorities attended predominantly white institutions before the onset of affirmative action. They did a much smaller numbers, however, as the caller indicated. One of the things affirmativeaction did in the late 60s, the early 70s, was too great larger cadres of racial minorities at these predominantly white institutions. And with the idea of being in mind, again that the desegregation of American Life was simply proceeding too slowly under the old rules, the old regime. As for these circumstances of racial minorities before the advent of affirmative action, i would agree. That history does need to be more known. I think there are good aspects and bad aspects to it. There are plenty of instances, plenty of stories of africanamericans and other racial minorities who are predominantly white institutions who did not have the benefit of affirmative action and created wonderful careers for themselves, and what they were able to achieve needs to be saluted. I dont think i think one can say that and also say at the same time, however, that what has occurred over the past several decades has been good. That larger numbers of racial minorities at these institutions has been good, but only for themselves but for the country as a whole. Host the nword, ma the persistence of the color line, other books written by professor Randall Kennedy. Is the cover of for discrimination race, affirmative action, and the law. Tonia, san diego, good morning to you. You were on with professor Randall Kennedy. Caller good morning. Its an honor to speak to you. I was wondering what you think the president and gym has ignored the fact that the main beneficiary of affirmative action franklin has been white women . Or its always a very interesting experience when my coworkers realize they are the main beneficiaries of affirmative action. Host tonya, do you favor affirmative action laws . Caller idea but i just wish people were more educated on the fact that a lot of people who are getting the benefits of it do not say that theyre getting the benefits of it, and many of them dont even know that because, in my job environment i would say that publicly seven of the 40 people definitely were helped because they were white women, because theyre not as even qualified as some of the black men who try to get the same job. Host thank you, maam trend to i think the caller makes an excellent point. The fact of the matter is that in american lives there and many groups who get all sorts of benefits, sometimes informally, sometimes formally. Clearly women. What about all these people who get benefits because their parents happen to go to a particular university, legacies for instance . What about the benefits that athletes get as far as im concerned there are probably good reasons for aiding all of these there is a groups. Shouldnt be, nobody should be under the delusion that its only racial minorities that get there is benefits. Farmers get benefits. People increased benefits regions get benefits. What about the fact that Public Institutions theres a tremendous benefit given to same state students as those out of state students . Thats a preference but theres all sorts of preferences, so long as preferences have a good, sensible basis, as far as im concerned they should be allowed. After all, racial affirmative action is nowhere except as a remedy for judicial impose remedy, outside of that. Affirmative action is something that politicians permit. Racial affirmative action is permissive. Its not required. And so if people commit it, and its usually the majority that is committing it in any event, it seems to me it should be a loud. If the majority of people in a particular state dont want to have a, for instance, the people of california got rid of racial affirmative action. The people in michigan got rid of racial affirmative action but if they want to get rid of it they can. But if people want to have it seems they they should be able to have it. There is good reason to have it as i argue in my book. Host diego, colorado. Diego, im going will have to let that go. I apologize. That connection is not working so we will move on to lynn in parkersburg pennsylvania. Randall kennedy is our guest on booktv. Caller hello, doctor kennedy. As one involved with discrimination and education, are you aware of anyone looking into the fact that all higher, from what i experienced, Higher Education, when you are accepted as astute it is not a contractual agreement . You can complete all requirements for a degree. The entire syllabus with a 4. 0 average, have paid all your tuition, perhaps with government grants. And they can choose whether they feel like giving you your diploma or not. You may not get your diploma. You have no legal recourse. It was not a contractual agreement. So that students have no antidiscrimination protection for graduation and getting a diploma. Therefore, they cant host why do you ask that question . Caller because it happened to me. I could not go out and get a job in my field. And pay back my government loans. So that all these popup i would deliver a Prominent University in philadelphia for a masters to become a teacher for a second career. And, you know, old white women are not host all right. Thank you. Randall kennedy . Guest im really sorry to hear about your unfortunate situation. I must say though that i dont think that youre correct in saying that a student who goes to an institution is without recourse if that institution arbitrarily with holds a diploma. In fact, i think that any student who goes to a public or a private institution, in fact, does have a contractual relationship with the institution. And if this institution acts arbitrarily, i think that they are in breach of contract and are also probably in breach of a whole set of state and federal laws. So if you have been treated arbitrarily by that institution, i would suggest that you consult with a lawyer because i think he would, in fact, have recourse. Host professor kennedy, because of the nature of your books do you get a lot of people get a lot of people the daily news, contacting you, this happened to me type cases . Guest i do. With all of my books, ive gotten lots of emails. And, frankly, one of the things thats most gratifying about writing my books is that it does trigger telephone calls. It triggers emails. It triggers letters. Obviously, im in no position to help out everyone, but i would say a couple times a year that or people who get in touch with me, or their lawyers get in touch with me, and ive been able to assist people. And im very happy about that. Host were you surprised by what happened to your colleague, Henry Louis Gates . Guest do you mean the instance where Henry Louis Gates was restless Police Officer . Yes, i was surprised by that. Frankly, here you have this very esteemed, very famous law, excuse me, University Professor at harvard who was arrested in his own house after proving that it is his own house. This was an instance of reality outdoing anybodys imagination. I mean, i wouldnt have thought that up for law school hypothetical. So i was a bit surprised by it but, of course, what happened, you know, a little bit of an insight about the problems and that africanamericans at every level. He is at the very elite level. He went to the station house in handcuffs. You know, nothing ultimately have happened to them. The charges were dropped, but what about a younger person, lets say, who did not have the resources that he had, a younger person who did not have the resources maybe to become a person who might have gotten angry and might of lashed out at the Police Officer . That sort of case turns out not to be a case where the person is just at the station house for a matter of hours. That is the sort of case that ends up with somebody badly hurt or killed. So the Henry Louis Gates episode was a very sobering episode. Caller yes, you did. My comment is simply this. And here it and not having had the opportunity to read the book, i thought how wonderful it is in this country because it solidifies the heart and soul of what we like to think america is, integrity. That is what i wanted to say. This book calls to mind the patcher itself is about integrity. Guest well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Host professor, if someone were to pick up one of your books, which one would you recommend today . Guest the book that i had the most fun writing, the one i had the most time right he was a book called interracial intimacies. Sex, marriage, adoption and identity. It was a book about the way in which the legal system has regulated interracial intimacy over the course of American History. That was my favorite book. The trouble with the book is it is long. It is 600 page is. If i was redoing the book now, i would split it into two books. You have to be a rather committed reader to read that entire volume. But for me, that was the book that i think is the best everett. Host is a little off your beaten path as law professor, is the net . Guest no, no it is full of law. The first racial laws in america were laws that regulated interracial sex in interracial marriage. And the last of the jim crow laws was the law that prohibited across the baseline, start anonymous at the title case in all of american constitutional law, loving versus the commonwecommonwe alth of virginia. Not another reason i like that book if it goes to an earlier question is whether people get in touch with me because a big portion had to do with interracial adoption. Theres lots of people who read the book and now they were being frustrated by their ability to a drop across the race line and that book made the argument that nobody in the states ought not get in the way of people who want to adopt across the baseline and that book has been used very widely and legislation. It has been used in litigation. It has been used to in courage people to adopt interracially and i am very happy about that. Host Randall Kennedy occurred on a tv in depth program. He discussed his entire body of work and we discussed that one as well. If youd like to watch a threehour program or parts of it, go to booktv. Org. In the upper lefthand function function corner is a search function. Watch it online at your leisure. Peter is then used the dough, california. Peter, did i say a right . Caller hi, yes. It is california and im honored to be speaking with dr. Randall kennedy this morning. I just had a question. Can you hear me . Host go ahead. Caller yes, i wanted to ask, do you believe that affirmative action in great measure to leveling the Playing Field and americans to begin with for africanamericans, each of those were turned affirmative action and do you think americans will ever see steep restitution . If not or if so, why . Guest in my view, affirmative action is at least in part a type of reparations. I mean, i think therere bunch of reasons and good reasons to support affirmative action. But i think reparations is one of them. Reparative justice. I think this is one way we dont color preparations, but i think it has been a type of reparations and it is entirely justifiable. Host how do you think president obama has been on the issue of race . Guest well, he has been a very tough position as the first black president. And i think that being the first black president , he has felt inhibited. I think he is keenly attuned to the feared allegation that he is showing racial favoritism to his people, so to speak. And so i think you sort of bent over backwards to avoid that sort of allegation. Hes in a very difficult position. Obviously, he has lots of opposition. Obviously, he is an historical first. I think when you are an historical first, like the great Jackie Robinson, in a way, barack obama is the Jackie Robinson of the higher echelons of american politics. And just like Jackie Robinson, just like Jackie Robinson had to take it, just like Jackie Robinson had to be twice as disciplined as anybody else, had to go for it may be saying some of the things that were on his mind, i think barack obama is in the same position. And that is what happens. So why give him i respect him. I admire him. Has he done everything perfectly . Of course not. That i think a given circumstance is, he has done in our world job. Host josh is in carbondale, illinois. Josh, go ahead. Guest good morning. Professor kennedy, i read several books and articles. Im a big fan of your work. My question is i have a concern about some of the trends in Higher Education when it comes to affirmative action, were essentially institutions of Higher Learning are really concerned about the racial cheyenne accent diversity of the freshman class. But they are not really tracking and looking at the graduation class. When you look at graduation trends, why students might graduate of 55 from a 60 , and africanamericans might graduate a 25 or 30 . There has been to discussions on things like mismatch theory, which some of them are policies that actually for students of color, African American students, hispanic students into situations they are not yet prepared for. I am interested in hearing some of your comments on not. Host host josh come host josh, are you a College Student . Guest i am a college professor. Host what you teach . Guest caller intercultural communication. Guest first of all, that is a nice point of getting into an institution. And graduating for destitution. They arent have to be a tennis to off assets and off assets of collegiate life. College is seen to be falling down and not attending to the needs of the students. We need to be attentive to that. Do i think affirmative action is going to change over time quite sure, affirmative action is going to change over time. The demographics of america change over time and with a change in demographics, we are going to see changes in affirmative action. Very intelligent people who want to tweet affirmative action in various ways. One for instance to be more attentive to the issues of class. I welcome that. I think we should be experimental. I dont think that because something has worked well in the past we should leave it alone. We should always be reexamining. So i havent favor of racial affirmativeaction. At the same time we should be reexamining our policies. One of the things we should take into account is the very issue we make. Host Martin Luther king, without regard to race or color. Did i quote him correctly . Guest you know, Martin Luther king jr. , it seems to me, is often misunderstood on this. There were certain things he said, for instance, his great i have a dream speech, in which i live in a society in which my children will be as fast on the basis of their character, not their color. That sounds like quote, color blindness. At the same time, i say the number of times in my book, martin at the king junior stated on many occasions been insofar as black people have been held down, there needs to be special efforts to assist them in elevating themselves. So Martin Luther king jr. Was in fact, in his own time, a proponent of what we now call affirmative action. Host Randall Kennedy is standing out here in the miami heat with us. We appreciate that very much. Weve got more phone calls if you would like. Guest absolutely. Host marcel in goodyear, arizona. Marcel. Caller thank you, mr. Kennedy. I have one question for you. Do you think it has benefited the africanAmerican People at all . I work for the federal government and i see the federal government is the biggest violation of racism. You know, when i am when i am there working and i see the number of africanamericans employed by the federal government, if youre in washington d. C. Or baltimore area, theres a lot more africanamericans that are promoted up in hierarchy positions. But if you go maybe to the south and the west, that is not the case. So as out here on the west kind of struggle with the fact that in city government, federal government, we are not getting promoted to the level we should be. We are very capable people with Colleg