and standing up strong against the party that would take us back. . . ñw when it comes time for the questions, think about how he will look on the national news is what you say cited to be newsworthy. everything is a is on the record -- everything i say is on the record. when we get to the question and answers, i will try to give as many of you an opportunity to make a comment as we wish to. if someone says something you agree with, you can applaud, tell them that they are great. this is not a public debate society. hey few care not to speak in public, that is what these cards are for. you just need to write it where we can read it and you need to give as a way to give effect to you. i will take as many questions as i can. if you decide to place template congressman, if i have to say i don't know, i have a record for that and i can research the answer for that. that is basically it. the first and no one to comment on, america speaking out, that is a website that the republicans are using in the house of representatives to try to get your ideas. you have to give out your name. we try to use those on the floor of the hhouse of representatives. foif we win the vote, your idea might be brought up for a vote. there is no web tracking or anything like that. we just want to be a part of the process. we are getting ... a lot of good feedback. -- we are getting a lot of good feedback. the first one is about to the budget situation. you can have two years of the balanced budget deficit. president obama took office, for you can see that his budget which does include the stimulus funding for, the budget deficits have just exploded. last year was 1.5 trillion dollars. we cannot sustain our way of life indefinitely with these budget deficits. we cannot tax our way out of it, we must cut spending. i have a bill and this says the current. >> programs, you get your social security benefits. if this is not been earned entitlement, we cut this across the board until we get the budget balanced. we treat everyone the same. i treat his program the same as i treat her program or his program. we can get a 60% vote to exclude your program from that budget reduction. there is a fail-safe mechanism. we simply must start making those types of choices. under the current budget situation, every program has increased. every now and then we will try to cut one program. i think that i can count on one hand the number of federal programs we have cut unless 546 years. the pressure is to increase spending more you would have an automatic way to reduce spending unless there was some special taact. the next thing is the new health care law. you really cannot see this from where you are but that is ok. the main thing that you need to know is that hot the changes health care as we know it today. this is to the government mandated system, a government controlled system, i think this is unsustainable. there is an employer mandate him that every employer has to make. there is a low-cost option and the high cost option. that is good in principle. within that, the government puts minimum benefit levels for each of these options and they also can regulate if not dictate and oversee the prices that are paid. but the alternative is a health government benefit exchange. some of these options will be privately run. if the employer provisions, since it mandates about what to the employer must pay, in most cases that will be like a lot bronze plan that is like 10,000. thiswe already have data for sof the big corporations that are looking at this. they have said that it makes sense to drop the employer sponsored plans and go with the public option because we saved a lot of money. if you are a family that has your health-insurance through a private employer sponsored plan, when this kicks in, your employer will drop that and put you in these public health benefit changes. you will not get a subsidy here unless you are a low income americans. the health choices the minister is dictating what we put into these plans. there also depicted in with the plan's cost. you're going from a situation that is a private based plan. how many of you think you will like that? you will not. there things that we need to do in health care. we do need to make sure that if you have a pre-existing condition, you have the option to be in some plan that we get coverage. if you are 18 and it just came off of the parent's plan, if you may fear that -- feel that you would like to spend your money on college education rather than a health care plan. one of the good things is that it says that you can stay on your parents' plan until you are 25 or 26. we are against this. the energy and commerce committee that i am on, we will toughly to oversight on this. the tax cut. all the tax cuts put into place under president bush go away. you might think that is a good idea but if you are paying taxes, this is probably not a good idea. the 15% bracket for low income americans, this goes away. all of the intermediate and brackets go up. the capital gains minimum, this is currently 15%. the marriage tax penalty exclusion which i believe this $70,000, this is cut back to 46,000. the alternative minimum tax exclusion is cut almost in half. most of you have these taxes deducted through the payroll deductions. you could see this as a couple of reductions. we are going to have a tax increase if we don't have some kind of breakthrough for. the last thing before take questions, i would like to talk about afghanistan. they put me in the obama suite. i expected there to be read phone and have the president call and talk to me but that did not happen. the good news is that we are in pretty good shape in afghanistan. this is not something that you see in the press. we have a good leader, general petraeus, he is using the troops that the president has sent. they are putting the troops out where the trouble spots are. we are training and getting the army ready and the police force. the command-and-control situation is excellent. the ability to put people where they need them. militarily, you love scene al qaeda retreat to the balance of the mounds. this to pence on the ability of the afghan government to work with the people. we take that for granted here in the everyone. afghanistan is not have a history of the people telling the government what to do in afghanistan. they have a travel system based on brute power. it -- they have a tribal system based on brute power. we are working as we implement a military strategy. there is a civilian counterpart to every general, colonel, capt., lieutenant, master sgt. we have a lot of effort not just on the battlefield but in helping the afghan people put in schools, put in roads, put in water projects, new agriculture projects. they are focusing on agriculture so that when they send out a combat patrol, as soon as the area is secure, they will set out their civilian groups. they're teaching them to do poultry farms, irrigate, things like this. they are trying to bring afghanistan into the 21st century in terms of economic issues. i do not think that we will have a military situation that we can pull the troops out next july. we are sending out the combat groups and they are not getting their -- they are just now getting there. the situation may improve significantly. if we can improve the civilian side of things, i think the future is hopeful. i am optimistic about a positive outcome in afghanistan. we will record the questions. the only reason it is if i have to get an answer from you that i don't know right now. first, will start off with mr. harris. he came to mudflows the last night and he had thought she came to midlothian -- he came from midlothian and he did not get to ask his question last night. he gets to go first. >> i would like to give a little bit of background. the first is the subject of the mosque proposal of ground zero. most are ignoring the main issue. as written in the koran that once a site is controlled by 80 islthe islam religion, they will hang onto it until the bitter end. this is concerning. also about iran building nuclear weapons. this has an impact on america. if this is built near grand 0, it is a toehold and the perceived victory concept of 9/11. further, the source of the money is in question. no one knows where the money's coming from, is it possible that the u.s. is finding some of the smallesmosque. we have made comments to israel as though they are a friend. this ship has beehoulsd have be. we need to support israel with 100% against the threat of iran. we need to allow them to construct the housing that was put on hold by president obama. the president's proposal of dividing jerusalem is impossible. the defense program from lockheed martin is to be deployed. the u.s. is facing serious economic problems using the term "political correctness" instead of the concept of reality. we should reduce government salaries, live within the income, and stop grants and overseas. history has shown that trying to buy friendship does not work. in closing, i want to say thank you for the signing of the -- for self-defense. >> i did not know what he was going to say. he did give me just as he walked in what he was going to say. let me comment on the situation of the moscoque. our founding fathers, we believed in separation of church and state, freedom of expression, freedom of religion which includes freedom to not have a religion if you choose to do that. there's no question that the people of the muslim faith have the right to practice their religion and to build mosques. they don't necessarily have to be right where we had a huge tragedy. people of all faiths and nationalities were killed. i know that the zoning board had a tough vote on this and i think it passed by one vote. i would hope that the leaders of new york city and new york state would go to the islamic community and ask them to relocate that mosque. i don't think that they should build this where they are planning to build it and i think that this is an affront. that was an attack on the united states of america. we would hope that the imam would use judgment that is tolerant of the feelings of some of the people that have lost their loved ones. i oppose that must not being built anywhere but being built where they're trying to build it. what can you do to help me is to as much as he can to help yourself and your family so you need less help from the federal government. i would encourage anyone, if you take the time to come to the town hall meetings, you are already registered to vote. you can help those candidates, bring your friends and neighbors to vote for those candidates. if you choose to vote for joe barton, i will not be disappointed. just participate in the democratic process. >> i has been to a couple of your things before. why has a couple loews short questions asked you. -- i have a couple of short questions to ask you. if you come back to congress and say the republicans have a majority or say they have maybe a one-vote majority and if they could not repeal delonthew law,d they vote for non funding? the second question deals with the border. everyone in the news, all of these so-called experts, generals, colonels, whatever, one thing they don't seem to catch, they want to say it is a national guardsman down there to watch people come across the border. i am a vietnam veteran. you cannot -- it is never possible to set up a barrier to keep people from coming into a country unless you have flyer covering it. you must have a response of force that will come in with force and knock them out. you cannot do this. a fixed defense, this will only challenge an enemy, it will not stop them. why isn't someone saying something like that in the congress? what i am saying is basic defense tactics in the military. thank you. >> ok. on the health care olaw, the moe votes you have, the easier it is to change or repeal it. i don't think that this is required. hopefully, you have a republican majority. there will be a lot of democrats that want to vote to change things. they will have just come out as a close election. 60% of the people disapprove of that particular law. i don't think that we will repeal everything but we will be able to repeal a lot of it and change it and try to fix the stuff that needs to be filled. -- needs to be fixed. an alternative is to not fund implementation. the decision would be made by the speaker and our majority leader. don't count your elections before they happen but if we were in the majority and we did not have the votes for a straight repeal, that would be something that we could look at. this is in the rules. this has been done before. we're not trying to build a berlin wall. some of the people coming into this country are really bad people. i cannot consider this to be a military job. i don't see reason to have an armed military that automatically decides that they can shoot. i do support the military to assist in the border patrol and the local law enforcement. i have ni am not ready to say ti want an armed and aggressive military presence. we should be able to control the borders without having to resort to this type of thing. we have the responsibility to tell the officials to enforce law. we are trying to enforce the law. that is a little bit unusual in american history. >> if you don't have armed forces the police, military, whatever. if you don't have this to cover the approaches, it will be like every night on television, you see 100 people coming across the border and no one is there. >> i have been to the border several times. i've not visited in the last year were a key. we are doing a lot better about retaining things of this sort. if we could ever get the economic situation balance, i think the legal immigration issue is an issue that can be solved. the much more difficult issue is the drug war. there is a real war. there were 100 deaths and the rate of last month. -- in laredo last month. there's so much going on down there that is not in the news or in newspapers. i commend the president of mexico really trying to stop the cartels. if there's one thing we should probably be doing more this would be assisting the mexican officials in combating the drug trade. >> -- they will not be stopped by a virtual wall. they will be stopped because someone steps up and stops them. i don't say that you have to shoot them but you should have the common sense to go out and catch them if you see them on camera. >> we need more personnel on the camera. we need to stop people. we need to remove them back to their own country. i have no argument about that. >> [inaudible] passed a budget for the va. you all were heading home and i was catching a flight, i was catching the 1 after you. the medal of honor association took a bunch of us from the hospital and they threw a big banquet for us. there are veterans out here now that are waiting for their disabilities that cannot work. i think that there va is taking their time and people are taken out of their houses because they cannot work and their houses are being foreclosed on. the biggest force that we have no overseas our reserves. we need to see about changing a bill for the compensation that the reserves get because we're working from the korean war era instead of updating now so that we can be compensated. i have 25 years in the service. all i am compensated is with what i get to the g8. i get nothing to compensate me on my service to this country until after i turn 60. >> we have changed the disability rolls 10 or 15 years ago because there was a lot of fraud and a lot of people were on disability that did not deserve it. we made it much more restrictive and we went too far. now when you are eligible and qualified, this -- >> [inaudible] disability and he was stationed in thailand at one of the basis where they were restoring agent orange. this is not recognized by the government and he does not get any help. >> i think you have a good point. the current evaluation system for disability is too long and too complicated and it is almost an automatic rejection the first time, the second time, rejected, finally the third time, you get qualified. that is something that really needs to be looked at. that would be an issue that the republicans and democrats in the next congress can work together on. i don't think that would be a difficult solution. if you have served your country and have been disabled because of your service, you are fully entitled to disability. it should not take an act of congress to get it for you. >> my note last recollection is that they don't eat pork over in afghanistan so why are we teaching them to raise pigs? >> that is what the colonel from the national guard said that the afghans were interested in. that is what he told us. that was something that they wanted help with. a lot of the country is muslim but there is a christian group there as well. we thank you for your service and we thank you for coming. let's go to the young man in the time. >> my question is very close with this gentleman, what are the differences which for the techniques we are using in iraq and afghanistan to guard the borders that we are unable to get close to on our southern border? >> i am not sure -- >> we are guarding borders all of the world today. i'm sure they have the borders secure so we know who is coming in and out. >> i hate to use the words "i don't know," but i would think in iraq, for example, that the iraqi government is guarding the border and we are assisting them as needed. >> we have to be protecting these borders for the safety of our military. these must be rather harsh tactics to keep people that would cut all of our throats in this room if they could to keep them out. if we're able to use those tactics, what are -- what is stopping us from doing this? how come we are not using these technologies here? >> we are not in a military confrontation with the government of mexico and canada. >> we are being invaded by mexico. >> they are allies and friends. >> there making cartoons showing their own citizens how to sneak into and of the country illegally. >> new mexico and canada are our allies. you have an economic disparity between mexico and the united states. we have people wanting to come in illegally or for economic reasons. those people, while in large numbers, there's pressure on social welfare, they are not a threat momentarily. the drug cartel is a threat and a matter how you cut it and the terrorists are a threat no matter how you look at this. the two of the groups are military threats. we can use economic cooperation over time. >> i would have to disagree because they are taking jobs and driving down wages. they have bankrupted some many hospitals and schools systems are forced to educate children of illegal immigrants. this is shaking the foundations of our country. >> you will not use a military tactic on that border. you can use barriers or the armed forces in a secondary -- >> how does the military assist civilian law enforcement unless they have a gun in their hand with bullets and the gun? force and the fear of force or the application of force is the ultimate end to disobedience of someone coming across the country. are you saying that the military could help the civilian law enforcement to keep illegal aliens -- >> i don't have a problem supporting the governor of texas if he asks the governor to send federal troops to make it emission of the national guard to assist the border patrol and the sheriff's department and local police forces and homeland security on the u.s. and mexican border. what i don't want to do is to put the second armored division of fort hood taxes on full combat alert on the u.s.-mexico border. >> how many sexual assaults and murders happen daily because of illegal immigrants from mexico? >> i don't have that at the top of my head. >> the have an idea? >> i would not hazard to guess. larger than zero, less than a million. >> this is something that you can look up for us? you might want to put the second armored division down there. >> how many of you want to take one of our armored divisions at fort hood texas and have them on full combat alert t? i see two people. >> all you would have to do is set up a few swat teams down in the major areas where the big things come through and you can have a swat team ready the will have cameras and the virtual wall catches them coming across the border. >> that is a different deal. we have military equipment, helicopters, surveillance drones. there is all kinds of technology that the military has that the local sheriff's departments probably don't have. i don't have any problem using that. some of our radar surveillance airport -- airplanes. >> are you opposed to using military soldiers to going in and working with the police? >> i believe in civilian control and i do not want to militarize the border between the u.s. and mexico or the u.s. and canada. >> which civilians will you send down there? >> whatever force is necessary to protect our citizens and our children. >> i have stated my position three different ways and three different times. >> you have to do what is in the best interests of the united states of america and it is in the best interest to control our borders. we are a nation of law and roll and we to have friendly relations with both mexico and canada. this is not a situation like iraq and iran or north korea, south korea. we should be able -- i'm not saying that the current situation is susceptible but i'm also not saying that we should go totally the other way. >> when congress passes bills like your health plan and a social security and other plans like this that are supposedly for the good of the people, why does congress always exempt themselves out? >> we do not. >> you don't? >> no, sir. in this case, you cannot see it but there is something up here for us. we are in the middle of this if this is implemented. when i hire someone to work on my congressional staff, they are my rep. if i'm not here. i have the right to ask them political questions because i am elected politically. that is a normal employment situation. you would not normally ask this kind of thing in a normal job situation. i do get to asses and the questions because they will represent me. if i hire someone who is a radical leftist liberal, that will be kind of tough. all of my constituents are saying one thing and they're arguing with them. there are some things that when i speak on the floor of the house, i am protected by the constitution. my speech is protected. there are some things that it makes sense to exempt the congress but generically, you are right. we passed a lot on you, we should be subject to the same law. >> when i go home tonight, i have one tree that i need to wash. if my wife is calling to the beach this weekend, i have to go to the grocery store and buy it. i need a haircut. i feel your pain just like you feel your pain every day. >> in 2010, there was no -- for social security members. >> we did not get a pay raise. >> we did not get one, no. the reason that the others did not was because inflation was down. >> [inaudible] did congress tried to get one? >> i am not aware of this. >> i have two girls that i'm trying to raise, i am trying to teach them to be self reliable. what i'm freshet with is a think a lot of what you have it is that there is a lot of a lack of common sense right now in government and in our country. sir, i don't need any more taxes. q i have seen people spending like crazy. i have cut back on spending. i like what you were saying earlier about self-reliance. that is what i would like to see the republican party push. we want less government. the way that we can encourage that is that we want to encourage you to be self- reliant, get your education. take care of yourself financially independent yourself and your family and that can help bring the cost of government down. >> there's no argument with me. >> let's let this be the last one because i have to go. >> this is one of those questions that you won't know. we are going to build a community center here. we didn't $8 million bond issue for that. now we know how much it will cost us eventually. if we would have been given that money by the federal government, how much would that really cost? how much would that cost you don't know that off the top of your head. >> i can give you a quick approximation. >> i don't get single issue people getting up and, in the floor for 10-15 minutes. >> i tried to call as many people as i can. you made a big effort to get here. you are entitled in your communications with me. sometimes i get a little argumentative and i probably should not. i think that everyone has behaved pretty well. your basic point that is if we got a federal grant for your community center, that would be money that would be borrowed. under the current situation, it would never be repaid. the cost would be insanity because we would always pay interest on the money that is borrowed. -- the cost would be in affinity -- infinity. it is tough to be in a representative democracy because to get elected money to help people just like the gentle man who was the veteran. he has an issue with a veteran's disability. he needs to get help. he need to gs to get help for hs friends as well. they should get compensated for what they have done. 95% of the meetings i have had are with people in groups, both government troops and private- sector, that want the government to do something that costs money. you very rarely have someone come out and say cut this program. we don't need the funds for the highway or the water project or whatever discusit is. if you have a growing economy and a federal resource base that is there, it is easy to say yes because the money is there. . . >> may have to commence to address and immigration? >> i will give you two minutes, because the c-span cameras are here today and they were not here yesterday. >> on the immigration issue, whenever you are trying to do -- >> remember, you are trying to talk to me now. >> the federal government is trying to undermine local law, and not enforced the law. this issue has been going on for so long. we cannot solve the problem for them, corruption and this and that. that is their problem. the only way and saw that is too big the wall higher. while it are you trying to do this? 30 years, 40 years, and still ongoing? what for? we have a federal government to undermines the u.s. constitution. sorry, it this may offer -- it piss me off, you know? >> we have gone this whole meeting. that is your two minutes. let me say, i am happy everybody is here. i am an optimist by nature. we have big problems, and they are not going to be solved easily. you folks have done a great job of highlighting a lot of the big problems, but we are different than any other nation on earth, in that we try to work together to resolve these problems and a consensus fashion. that is messy. when you watch the floor of the house and you see us yelling and screaming at each other, and all of that, that is diversity. now, we have got an election coming up in november. there are real choices. there are real differences between the two political parties. on some of these issues the you have raised, and immigration is one of them, it is not going to be solved just by the republicans or just by the democrats. we have got to decide where that middle ground is. to get balance of. on the tax issue, i think that is another one where we have to come together. that one thing that i think the republicans have an advantage on, is that we are more willing to cut spending. i cannot conceive of an effort that you're going to be better off by raising taxes. i just cannot conceive of it when spending has gone up as much as it has gone up in the last two to three years. there are programs the we have doubled in the last two-three years. we do not have a better program because of that. i wanted bank the city for letting us come out, -- thank the city for letting us come out, thank c-span for deciding this is one of the town halls that they would cover. if you have a great idea, americaspeakingout.com, send it to us. we will take a look data. you might sit on the floor of the house. god bless you and god bless the united states of america. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> we have plenty of people in government that all of us can talk to inside d.c. what we have to do is get out there into america and hear from our constituents. >> while congress is on break, some members are holding town hall meetings and their constituents. we have been covering those. online, you can see what your congressperson has said. it is all free on your computer any time. >> now, an event with generals who covered hurricane katrina. this is one of the many events marking the fifth anniversary of the storm. president obama travels to the region on sunday. this is one hour. >> good evening and welcome. chairman andverby ceo of the newseum. most of you know the newseum and have been here many times. our object is to try to help you experience the first draft of history. we are about news, but we are about history and the first draft of history that is journalism. tonight, we are here to commemorate the five-year anniversary of katrina, the worst disaster, i believe, to hit this country in our lifetimes, but maybe in the history of the country. it is such a dramatic of and. it was almost beyond belief, and our exhibit upstairs shows the drama, the danger and despair that company-as told through the es of reporters from newspapers and television journalists. before i introduce them, i want to take you back. i know that the memory of katrina is seared in your mind from five years ago, but let's set up with a clip. >> just unbelievable. >> people are dying. >> as it was said there, just unbelievable. we are accustomed here at the newseum to having very good journalists come here. tonight, i would add the adjective brave. i'm not accustomed to using the word brave with journalists who do their jobs here in thenited states. maybe abroad or in a war setting, but the journalists who covered katrina were brave in a personal sense and in a larger sense of what they did in covering that tragedy. we have with us the editor of the "new orleans times picayune ." he has been editor since 1980 and is a hometown boy from new orleans. he knows that city like the back of his hands and under his peggyship at ofhe "* in" they won four pulitzer prizes. next to him is stan tiner, the editor of the "son harold" at biloxi and gulfport. i've known him for a long time. he was the editor at shreveport, mobile and oklahoma city. his city was completely devastated and you will hear how he reacted to that. and we have shepard smith. all of us remember your reporting from five years ago. he was the main man at fox news and is the anchor of the signature news program each day. plus, he does "shepherd smith from a studio b." our good fortune, "studio b." was that the fed newseum -- was at a newseum museum today. before i asked your question, i would like to set this up with a video that we did with you. >> the key venture for us was to reporters and they both had bicycles at the newsroom that day. so they took their bicycles together and decided to explore the area to the north of the city near the lake. they looked down from the railroad bridge and what used to be a quiet residential street is now a river that is rushing pass them under this bridge toward downtown new orleans. in that flash of a moment, they both realize they were doomed. the water has broken through the flood walls and the oceans are rushing into the city. >> five years later, it is chilling to me to hear you say we are doomed. how on earth do you begin to think about covering something when you say we are dimmed? how did you go about getting it done? >> one of the things that's most admirable about a journalist from new orleans and the gulf coast that covered this storm, is the way in which they were all personally affected by the various stories that were covering and to these bicycle riders we are just hearing about, o of them had at the moment he is jotting things down in his notebook, he is realizing that his hse is completely under water. he pauses for maybe a minute to absorber that fact and takes up his notebook again and continued writing because he is a journalist. it is a mission. i think all of these reporters realize that that mission came before everything. >> that is amazing. those bicycles are upstairs as part of the exhibit. when you realize that's what it took and they were the first to discover the levees have broken -- >> they were and they had the great advantage of being hometown boys. they knew the city like the palm of their hands and they knew what they arlooking at. they knew what it meant to see water coming from that direction, namely that the lake was about to inundate 80% of new orleans. with that kind of authority, they were able to write a story that made this clear to millions of people on the internet before anyby else could put the pieces together. that kind of combination of firsthand observation and deep knowledge of the community is what distinguishes newspapers. >> before you heard that news, did you think new orleans had dodged a bullet? >> that's a good question. even after i heard that news, i knew intellectually that we are doomed, but emotionally, you cannot grasp it and you think i'm going to wake up tomorrow and everything will be routine again. it takes awhile for anybody to absorber that kind of -- for anybody to absorb that kind of drama. >> you had a harrowing experience as far as how long to stay and when to leave the offices. tell us about that. >> the storm hitonday morning , landfall at the mouth of the mississippi about 6:00 on august 29th. the winds did not begin to die down until about 2:00. it was very difficult to be outside and all. about 200 of , including women and children who were relatives of our journalists were in this fortress-like building that is our newspaper, thinking that is where we would report about the storm. we had generators. we had a computer power and the ability to write on the internet. the first thing that what was the presses. butn the end, that did not matter because there were no households to deliver to. we were, in a way, thinking this was going to be our two week at most fortress from which we report the storm. that night, after our reporters came in from having seen where the breeches had occurred, we started seeing the water rise in front of our building. we should have known what we were observing, but we thought how could the water rise? the storm is gone and theind has died down. gradually, overnight, it rose at a rate of about 1 inch every seven minutes. by the time i woke up, it was clear that our reporters were not going to be able to come and go. the prism across the street was being evacuated. there were about a dozen inmate escapes right in front of our building. we realized if we did not leave then in there, we would not have the ability to get through the water, so we loaded into these trucks that could for about 4 feet of water. >> there is a picture upstairs of your staff in the back of this truck. it is so dramatic. he never covered a lot of hurricanes and you figured you had this down pat about how to cover hurricanes. >> hurricanes, you never know how they're going to come out you peer -- how they're going to come at you. there may never be another katrina, but coming from a different direction, i don't think you can ever have a hurricane down pat. you always have to be flexible in reacting to whatever the quirks of this particular disaster are. i don't think anybody in new orleans expected the federal built canal walls would collapse and that would be our demise. >> stand, the devastation in biloxi and along the mississippi gulf coast was unbelievable. we have a clip from our interview. let's go to that clip. >> it ce out of a sense of outrage that will not getting help quick enough. we had to speak with a louder voice a in the first week, we had a headline that said "help us now." we did need help tomorrow, we need it right now. for many of us, one way reflect on those days, one of the most righteous jobs we did was to deliver the paper. people would be their getting ice and water and we came up with the paper and people would leave the line looking for sustenance to get a newspaper and gas because they cannot believe the paper had gotten there. in the midst of all this, if you can get a newspaper, were probably going to be ok. >> was it difficult to move opinion to the front page? >> no. you are aware of any need to do it. journalists spend a lifetime absorbing generations of tradition and understanding about what our role was. you don't think you are going to be put in a moment like we found ourselves after katrina. , as it became clear, the enormity of what we were dealing with, and as jim's newsroom dealt with it, we'll understood we had to speak for the people of south mississippi. that was an important role that we add and while we did not always know what was happening on the networks and other places, we quickly became somewhat media-savvy in understanding that if a little paper in biloxi and gulfport could say something with that kind of authority, that we had not done, that it was important that the peoplof america respond to what was going on there, i think they did in many ways. >> you think your headlines and editorials had impact? >> i do. our case was much different. what happened on the mississippi gulf coast was dramatically different from what happened in new orleans. jim has described what occurred there dallas so devastating to the population -- what happened there that was so devastating to the population was a man-made failure of engineering. hurricane katrina, the savagery of this storm and the power of water to get our coast the way on that horrible moment -- of that horrible morning. many of you will understand that the storm surge in aces like where jim's family lost three homes -- like the people in mississippi, they keep rebuilding and nature keeps knocking it down. but there was a storm surge of about 34 feet. on top of the storm surge was a wave action have again that high. so waves as high as 50 feet battered much of the coast of mississippi and very little could stand against that. the only thing that would be a celebration would be elevation and there's just not that much elevation in our -- would be elevation. when you talk about the ability to know where you are going -- there are no street signs or landmarks in many cases to even see. so you had -- to try to grasp given your knowledge of the place where you were and what happened in that place because there would be literally block after block after block of nothing where homes and communities had stood before. as our people began to go back to their homes, it was very much like the situation jim described. abt one-fourth of our newspaper lost their homes that morning. the journalist would go out and discover where their homes had stood and come back. i think of one man who was a naval officer and a very strong human being came and sat in my office and wept as he told the story. he dried his tears and went back and did what the rest of the staff did. one of the things i think was so important to us in this days was we had something to do. we quickly came to grasp that it was important, what we had to do, to tell the story both to the population that survived and put a newspaper in the hands of the people try crawling over piles of debris, to put it in the hands of somebody surveying what had been their home and telling to the world both on the internet and through the pap we see through the eyes of other media of what was happening in those precincts. >> you called the delivery of those newspapers a righteous act. what do you mean by that? >> jonalist mostly think of ourselves as someone gathers information and tells stories. it goes through a process we all know very well. but everybody at a newspaper company has their jobs delineated. somebody's in the business office, somebody is selling ads, somebody is making a press run and putting it on paper. after katrina, everybody did whatever was necessary to get done. every person literall became a delivery woman or delivery man. whenever we went on our rounds, and we are trying to get a story or go to city hall or to the emergency center to get information, everybody had a stack of papers were filled the trunk of their car with papers. where you would see people gaered, you would put the paper in their hands. as you did that, the organic feeling of the importance of news, most of us got into the business thinking journalism major difference. there is a particular nature to those who choose to do it. you don't do it because you expect to get rich or anything like that, but there's a sense that journalism would make the world better place if there's something you can do that is important. in all truthfulness, and last 10 or 15 years, this sense has been lost a lot in our business as we have been drawn down by the hard facts of what has happened. as we go through the transition from one way of telling stories to another, most people in this room and someone know that has impacted our business in a dreadful way. we have gotten, as editors and the journalists have had to deal with that as well. those who work in newsrooms, the fact we have lost some of this sense of what the true mission was. katrina brought that back in a very graphic way and allowed us to understand what we did was important and it gave something to do. the fact is, most of the people who remained and who survived did not have anything to do. their jobs had been swept away by the storm surge. but for us, we had something to do that kept us busy. i see one of my colleagues here who is now living in virginia. cat knows about as much as the heart and soul of our community as anyone. the business of tling the stories of people, not just then but over the five years has been an important role, i think. >> we were preparing behind the scenes video for our web site on this exhibit. carry christophersen, the director of o collections department talked about putting up a map that was in your newsroom. as you will see, if you haven't already seen it, it is a death map. i want to go to this clip and ask a question about that. >> one of the most resonant objects or people i met -- the newsroom map. it was a map nude -- that journalists' use to find things there are looking for and they began to track stories of people had died. it is a newsroom tool, it is an artifact. at first, it was a daunting job. then, at on point, as i'm putting items into the bag and riding my notes, i realize that i've made a note about the red pens, john, and marjorie -- all the sudden i put four pins into a bag and i realize i put a whole family into a bag. >> how did you come up with the idea of a map and what affect it at in the coverage and understaffed? >>-- what affect did it have on your coverage and on your staff? >> if you look, you see the entirety of our coast was swept away. so, there was a real understanding of where the most deadly part of the storm surge was as you placed -- you could find a great relationship between elevation and death in the coast. one of the things folks in south mississippi, as you indicated, we have endured a lot of storms over the years. camille was always thought to be the worst. the mayor of biloxi's said camille killed more people today than it did in 1969 becaus every believe if you survived camille that where your home was, you would be safe from anything that would come in the future. and many died thinking that. but the map gave us an understanding. there was a real correlation between where you live and who died. you will see the clusters of those who died and i appreciate the respect thomas tt was given their when she understood that those were people that we lost that day. >> newseum has tried to tell the story of katrina in three ways, the eyes of the editors and reporters in -- reporters and editors in new orleans, the eyes and editors in biloxi and gulfport and then the national media. nobody embodies that better than shepard smith. i remember just like yesterday your reporting from new orlean let's get a glimpse of that in a clip. >> the government said it you go here and you will get help. you go in the superdome and you'll get help, and didn't. >> there is a motion in the story and you try not to be emotionally yourselves. and normally in stories, i'm not one who goes there. but when you come to the very stark reality that you are the information stream between the people who are dying and the people who can do this saving, it takes on a w level of importance. >> over there, there is food and water, but you cannot go -- >> the government will not allow you to do it. >> i want to get som perspective here. >> that is all the perspective you need. >> the government is here to save those people and should have. it's not a republican thing or democratic thing, it's not right thing or laughing, it is about success and failure. hurricane petraeus is a story of great american failure. -- hurricane katrina is a story of great american failure. have we documented it better as individuals, the government that failed would have been forced to act and we did not succeed in the same way. that is a powerful thing. >> rarely do you see that kind of emotion on television. five years later, how do you feel about that? >> it's tough to look at and tough to remember. i don't get like this. this was an unusual -- i'm a son of the region but it did not have as much to do with that as it did, yourepare yourself mentally before you go to cover something without thinking about. i'm going to a war, here's how it's going to be. i'm going to a hurricane, here is how it's going to be. you cannot anticipate the collapse of society around you. you don't think of fires and shots -- you just don't -- you're not ready f that. you are also not ready for the times when theyay this is happening and you hear them say it, but you can see that it is not. it was very jarring. we would easily collect ourselves in the middle of the night -- i don't have the perspective these men do. they were covering the entire city and entire region. i only had one little thing that could move. so we were covering along the superdome and they would come out of the water and sit there. some of them needed insulin. some of the needed formula. some of them needed drugs, some of them -- they needed what they needed. and there they were all together. and there was nothing we could do except tell people here they are. and they didn't come for a long time. it was very frustrating and frightening. frightening after a few days. >> in the beginning, you think help will be here quickly and it will all be ok? >> hurricane hugo was a story of when the entries. all of the pine trees snapped as far as you could see. your like toothpicks. once that trees out of the way, they're the help was. in andrew, it was a win the story and no street signs, no markers and it was hard for authorities to get around, but they got there. with katrina, they told you they are on the way or they are right there, and they were not. the next day, they still were not. then you start reading help us now, save us now, that's how i felt about the tusands of people living on that road. where is the help? why isn't it here? i didn't understand it then. >> was the emotion spontaneous or did you say i've got to do something different here? >> what you do is suppress the motion in an effort to get the facts out. emotion will sometimes twist a fact if you let it. you have to deal with emotions later when you're covering tragedies. >> you said you didn't understand it then did you understand it now. what do you understand? >> i understand every level failed and every level lied to us. >> when you said you understood -- wanted to get clear. >> that's what i thought. the parish said, the city sd, the mayor said, the governor said, the president said, and i was looking and they were wrong. >> what has been the reaction of the public to the reporting you did in katrina? >> everybody sees things through his or her own experiences. sometimes through his or her own ideological prism. sometimes, when events and, those would like to quickly write history, would like to suggest you did something nefarious or what you said it cannot be proved or whatever. but, all you can really do is try very hard to report the trees and then afterward, if they want to be angry with you for the way you reported, that's them and i don't really worry about it. there were a lot of things i could have done better in my tiny little part in that tiny ttle area, but i did the best and you how to do that time and that's all you can do. >> if i understood your comment correctly, i think you said the news media failed. do you mean that? >> people watching tv don't realize i couldn't see tv. i did not have a phone. i could not read a newspaper. i did not have any communication except the isp. all knew is what i was hearing and seeing on the other end. in some ways, i wish we turned up the volume earlier. but initially, when literally bodies are floating down the streets and there are fires in the distance and gunshots are going off and drug addicts are looking for their fix and you are in the middle of all, it's hard to get it to come together. maybe if we had made a little more noise earlier, i don't know. i wish we could have made more noise earlier and affected more change earlier. i feel like a lot of people died between the time these people needed help and the te i got there and that's unfortunate. >> is thathe hardest story you have ever covered? >> 9/11 9/11 was hard because i lived there. but katrina was like the default capital. seeing others who maybe didn't know poverty before. these people do not have cars. they need buses. the buses did not come. the buses did not come. we knew what was coming on some level, and it was hard in the that you knew it was coming. you knew they knew. it had bn presented to congress, and they did not act. i am forever sad about it. >> jim, did you ever find out why they did not act sooner? >> is still a baffling and appalling to think that this storm happened on monday morning, and on friday morning, we and various other businesses had set up all kinds of convoys for getting supplies to the people, and on tuesday morning, at secretary chertoff said he was not aware of any reports that levitt had been -- that levees had been reached. this is after having been seen by 50,000 viewers of our internet report. i do not understand it. >> we are going to have questions from the audience. come up to the microphone. in the meantime, how has this affected your staff? are they stronger? does t trauma still lives? how are they now? >> if i could say something to people here tonight and those who might view this, katrina has not gone away. katrina is a continuing story in the lives many people across our region in a very, very inful ways. it was kind of interesting. i was on the ground in mississippi for the longest ti. i do not know, someone here ke remembered -- might remember, what it was like getting out of the place. i saw some of the headlines you had in the exhibit here. we had not seen the media. we were the same in the perspective as everybody else. the most asked question that i t within the first month was, "are you back to normal yet?" [laughter] we were not back to normal then, and in many ways, we're not back to normal now. the five-year span has involved many important stories within the story. the insurance the woes of people who were knocked down continue for a great number of our population. it is very hard to rebuild, so of the population cannot be rested as a consequence of that. that has been tough. the national recession has hit us like it hit everybody else, just about the time you think you might be making some progress and that makes it difficult. and then this latest unfortunate thing is the oil spill into the gulf. ose things together aggregate to have the end result of being very traumatic to a vast part of our population. i think that is one of the stories that is ongoing. we have had to become expert on some aspects of the story. we did not have an insurance reporter before katrina. now two newspapers have two of the best in the country because they have had to learn how that works and to tell the story in a professional way. we have learned to do that. we thought five years out we would be at one place, and we are not there yet. >> it is not as ra as five years ago. you can see little clumps of people in the back to ruche -- baton rouge weeping or talking on to their sons very intensely. -- their cell phones very intensely. a lot of these old, remembered fears are right at the surface. a lot of us, myself included, just a little token of this is that i would not dream of going on a weeklong vacation in the summer anymore, nor what my wife. we want to be closed by -- we want to be close by, because there is some warning that has come loose that never existed before. >> historically, we know a big hurricane will hit new orleans again. will it be different? >> if the exact trajectory of katrina happened again, i think it is fair to say that we are better protected. the water from the lake would norush up the canals because big floodgates have been lowered. i think there is some slightly better protection, but we sll in this cntry do not have the congressional will muster to make this major american city protected from the strongest storms. we just cannot bring ourselves to do that. that leaves us all feeling queasy. >> stan mentioned the oil spill, and i would be derelict if i did not ask how you're doing with that. did you say, oh no, here we go again? >> i think there are a lot of other ways we would have liked to have spent this summer. [laughter] again, we are a small newspaper. we had the fifth anniversary coming, and there are news people who know that you do not quit telling the story about crime, the schools, educational testing, health problems in the community, all of the news that you covered before. then you have t five-year anniversary coming, which for us was a great commitment of staff time to try to dig into and examined and tell where we think we are and where we thi we are goingo be in the future, looking five years forward from now. so when the oil spill came, that was one more layer of news reporting that we had to do. we had to try to get ourselves up to speed and understanding what is the science of such a thing in the gulf. it has been a very big story. those of you who have paid attention know that it has been treated as a national story, but again, it is lapping up on our shores. it is affecting the fishermen and people of our communities. it is something we have had to understand. jim did a great job of explaining the way you feel about things in the summertime. when you combine, what is it the storm going to do? it has been projected that this will be a big summer for hurricanes. we have an oil rig that is spewing millions of gallons of oil into the gulf. combine that with thisther chemical, what is that going t mean when it gets into the richest areas where this nation's fisheries are spawned and located? what is that going to do to our people? it certainly has engaged us in a new topic. it is just one more thing that we have had to learn to do. >> hour outdoors writer -- our outdoors writer has written about the louisiana wetlands and the coast for decades. the way he puts it is that the oil spill is a temporary disaster on top of a permanent tragedy. the permanent tragedy, for louisiana at least, is the gradual banishing of our coastline -- a vanishing of our coastline in a way thadestroys the wetlands, in a way that destroys the buffer zone that used to protect new orleans from hurricanes. since 1956, we have lost 25% of the wetlands that used to protect new orleans from the hurricane's. one of the main reasons we he is that the oil industry, up with the connivance of louisiana politics, has dug canals all through the coastal louisiana and occasioned the destruction of t wetlands by bringing salt water into them. that is something that this nation has to do something about. >> let's go to the audience. >> you are coming right to my question. you have painted a rather pathetic picture of congress, the government, and louisiana government. what can people like us do to try to get them -- inspire them to get on the ball and do what needs to be done when this next emergency comes our way? do you have any recommendations? it is kind of a hopeless picture that you have described? . >> that is so easy, i think even jim can answer that. [laughter] >> the picture, overall, in 2010, is of a nation that is tired of caring about katrina. katrina fatigue is a symptom almost. it is something i think we perhaps do not want to think about because it exposes a united states we do not want to be in. we think of ourselves as a kennedy nation, a nation that sees our problems and addresses them. this flies in the face of that. politicians think that their own constituents do not even really care about it. that is not helpful. however one can make noise as an ordinary citizen. >> one element of that story that i want to make sure is hard -- is heard is that the people of america have done a lot to help us. our gratefulness for that can never properly be expressed. we have had 1 million volunteers, and gunmen, help us dig out, put their arms around a -- volunteers, come in, help us dig out, but their arms around us, feand clothed us. amidst all of the-that happened, there was an enormous amount of good -- amidst all the bad that happened, there was an enormous amount of good that happened. people of every relious and ethnic group put their shoulder into it. some people ask how to be better organized. i say, asked the homage people who do this over and over again with -- the ami people to do this over and over again with eat competency. within the american people is something that we saw in new orleans a that was inspiring. we will never forget that, and we thank all of you who have come and done so much. >> even today, you can see the writing groups of, usually young people, of all religions -- you can see the arriving troops of, usually, young people, of all religions. many of them stay and make a permanent home phere. >> well before katrina hit it was acknowledged that new orleans would not bable to withstand a direct hit from hurricane a serious mnitude. from in vantage point -- from my vantage point, most of what we have heard is a story of great poverty, sadness, and the failure of the government to respond after the fact. what about the failure to prepare? that story -- how do you think the media did in handling that story before the event and after the event? >> of the thing that you have to understand about new orleans is that topographic way it is vulnerable. not because of c levels. sea levels, at which they talked about a lot, have very little to do that. we have the mississippi river on one side and lake pontchartrain on the other. the golf is lapping at our backyard. -- the gulf of mexico is lapping at our backyard. if a storm surge drives the water from the gulf of mexico into the lake, the city is automatically vulnerable to water pouring into a double -- into the bowl. that is a big problem, but it is not an insurmountable problem. i think, regardless of the poverty or wealth of new orleans, the united states ought to have the ability -- and only federal government can do this -- to build the kind of infrastructure that would protect a great city. >> one terrible aspect of this story was race. is it any better now than it was during katrina, the whole issue of race relations and caring, concerned over the poverty- stricken situation there? >> i think in many ways at the storm and the aftermath of the storm brought people together of different ethnic groups, black people and white people, who made common cause in rebuilding the city. you see examples of that all over, whether it be church groups or social gatherings. it also changed the demographic s of the city somewhat. it is still a majority african- american city, but it went roughly from 67% african- american to about 60%. it changed racial politics. it would have been hard to imagine 20 years ago that new orleans would have a white mayor, a white police chief, a white district attorney in the year 2010. and yet, that does not seem to have become a big issue. what people want right now, black or white, is competence, energy, almost regardless of race. >> so some good has come out of katrina? >> i think some good has come out of katrina. >> what would be the one thing that you have lost that is irretrievable from the storm? what has been the most remarkable thing that you have recovered? >> two sides of the question. i think we have irretrievably lost a fair amount of our culture. a city cannot suffer the loss of00,000 inhabitants and not have that just make it a slightly lesser version of itself. i think, ironically, the thing we gained, is a deep, visceral feing that all of the things we took for granted we cannot take for granted. when we got them back, ed they became so, so precious. as a new orleans resident, when things came back, you just celebrated them. celebrated them. >> this kind of hobby for americans to hate the press. it is part of their god-given freedom. do you think that the coverage of katrina helped people have a better regard for the press? >> i did not see theoverage of katrina as it happened. [laughter] i have since seen it. i thought that we came -- we felt the gravity of the moment, realized how important it was to what we were doing, especially when the response was n happening. really, there were very few live within it, because of logistical reasons. some people got flooded out. thempeople's editors made leave. they said, you will take $5 million worth of equipment out of there instantly. we do not care about the people. we got a message to go to mississippi, realized it was going to flood, turned around and apologized later. i think many people realized that this was a big deal. this is why we got into this business in the first place. it is a very heady thing when you realize that the government is getting information from you. the government does not have its act together enough to realize what is happening here. when that happened on tuesday, our jaws dropped. what are we doing wrong? why are they not watching? i thought we did a pretty good job as a group. i thought we did a good job with hurricane andrew. i thought we did a good job with katrina. i thought we did a good job with 9/11. when think we have sn with journalists overtime in this country is that it may become a money show at times, but when tragedy arises or when the need is greatest, journalists seem to rise to the occasn. i hope america is a better place for it. >> the local newspaper situation was probably a little different. did youind that the citizens of your community are now more supportive of your newspapers than they were before katrina? >> five years ago, a lot has happened to take people off again since then. [laughter] there was a period, i think it lasted about three months or so, when we could do no wrong. honestly, i think that the reader's -- and i am sure you have had the same experience -- felt like they had gone through it the most dramatic lives -- dramatic moments of their lives together with the newspaper, and that created a bond. >> i think readers are real smart. they pay attention. it is like everything else in life, how well did we perform today? they are constantly evaluating and reevaluating, but i think maybe the more important connection came in how close we got to them. there was something that will never be taken away. it is not to say that we were not involved in the community or did not know the community. we felt like we knew it. but there is a respect and admiration that we have for the people of our region that almost transcends anything that i have evereen. i swear that i am not going to use the word. we have tried to use the word -- we have tried to keep the word "resilience" out of our five- year coverage. it has been overused. it is a good word that describes people from our region very well, but what they came through and what they did is something i will never forget. the question was asked, what did we lose and what did we gain? we lost, in the case of the 65,000 homes and businesses that were wiped away, a person can write eloquently about the little things that meant so much to her, the things that make up our memories of life. all of that is gone. you can say it is still in your head and you can still tell your children and grandchildren. but what we gained is an understanding that we are pretty tough people. we can endure and survive something as tough as katrina. we can do just about anything. i think that is one of the driving forces, the reason that i feel that the mississippi delta is going to recover well. it may take longer than we thought, but it is the man capital that is there. for those who have state, by gosh, they are tough people. they're going to make it. that theearlier said deb only access to the outside world you had was wt came in from your ifb i am curious, when something like this happens, what communication happens between networks or newspapers? you thought the communication failed, but if the idea is that the coverage was not as adequate as it could haveeen, what could have been done? what happened between different networks in order to more accurately portrayed the story to the people who were watching? >> i remember a few times when collaborations' have happened. they happened after 9/11. there was a local collaboration in florida after the events there. there may have been some collaboration after katrina. it is not the normal thing. print people see us for what we are, and we wish we were print people. [laughter] sometimes, if you realize what the story is off the batyou might be able to act in one way, but with this, even as the weather was rising, you really could not grasp it. it was not what we thought it was going to be. i remember explaining to someone that if he wanted to cover this past today, tuesday, we were going to have to have water, food, shelter across the coast for months. certainly, two thousand miles away there was no way to wrap itself around it. we could barely collaborate ourselves. [laughter] >> we have a lot of volunteers that came to be a part of our newsroom, primarily colleagues. they were wonderful. they slept on the floor and eight spam and did all of the things that we did together. but there were other journalists, people i have known acss the years, retired folks -- they saw something in this moment, that thing that they always wanted to do, and they were able to come and be a part of it. they said, you have done something for us. he reminded me why i did it the first time and why it may still be worth doing. >> i am sure we all had the same experience which was having a lifeline for information. when the parish president walked up to the levees and they were collapsing, that is where we heard it. that voice giving people a way to vent and a place to go, i thought that they were spectacular. >> both of your papers won the pulitzer prize for distinguished public service. i do not believe there has ever been a time when they awarded two newspapers in one year. have you done all you could possibly hope to achieve now, and has a pulitzer prize changed your life? >> i think that the story changes one's life. in this case, it has changed everybody in my newsroom who lived through it, but i think made them better journalist, better reporters and photographers, copyeditors, editors, graphic artists. it has been astonishingo see the energy that we felt in those early days never seem to fly. you would think that people would get exhausted and say, i am out ohere. it stayed. i saw it again during the oil spill days. this week, when we are writing nonstops stories about t anniversary, it is still there. >> i think the pulitzer is bigger than all of us. when we were kids, you know, you knew about it. the thought, there is a worthy goal to work for. it is in some ways like a hoosiers' game. there were people who tried to talk about the newspapers as it got close to the pulitzer time. we never talked about it. i did not want to jinx anything because there really was not something that you thought about, because that was not what you did it. it was almost like a hoosiers' game played out, and a big team is playing, and at the end of regulation is tied and somebody gives them both a medal. [laughter] it felt good to me to be recognized, and for our newsroom to be recognized in the same way that the great times picayune d jim's leadership and all that they had done, and we were very aware of what they had done, but our little guys were working hard every day and doing everything they could do to tell their stor they really were two different stories, and when you put them together, they really represented katrina. we read somewhere that somebody had a pulitzer stolen. ours has been in the estate because we did not want to have something bad happen to it -- then in a safe because we did not want to have something bad happened to it. the editor at the clarion ledger won it r his exemplary reporting about the educational problems in the state of mississippi. he tells a story that he used to carry his around in his pocket and pull it out and show it to people. [laughter] >> most people have never seen a pulitzer prize gold medal, so both of them are in this exhibit. it is here for the next year at the museum -- newseum. you have s with bill looking at the aftermath of hurricane katrina all "washington journal. we talk to local louisiana officials about the recovery over the last five years. while still alive sunday morning at 7:00. -- watch it live sunday morning at 7:00. going back and his supporters will hold a rally in washington d.c. this weekend. you can see workers setting up for the event. it takes place next to the lincoln memorial. sarah palin is among the scheduled speakers. live coverage begins saturday at 10:00 on c-span. >> this weekend, on book tv, saturday, we look at the aftermath of hurricane katrina and argues that businesses and faith based organizations are better equipped to handle disasters than the federal government. the free-lance journalist offers a critical view of talk-show host glenn beck. for a complete list of this weekend's programs and times, visits booktv.org. >> kent wells is questioned by federal investigators about his company's safety record in the gulf of mexico. the government is investigating the deepwater rise in oil rig explosion that killed 11 workers. it is being held in houston this week. >> witness, would you please stand and say your name. >> mr. wells, as i've advised diaz all late swear that the testimony will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but? thanks for being here, and counsel, would you state your name. >> scott lassar. >> thank you. >> questions from the board. >> mr. wells, for the record, could you please state your full name and spell your last, sir. >> it's james kent wells. last name, wells, and i go by kent. >> thanks a lot, sir. >> by whom are you employed. >> bp. >> and what position do you currently hold with bp? >> i'm one of our senior vice-presidents for exploration and production, and my current role is i lead our north america onshore gas business. >> thank you. and how long have you held this position, sir? >> since june 2007. i've been in that role or similar role to it, the organization has evolved a little bit, but i've been leading our onshore gas business, lower 48 states, since about -- june 2007. >> thank you. and can you please briefly describe your job responsibilities currently with bp, sir? >> yes. as the leader for our onshore gas business, i work on our strategic plan, what do we want to do with our business in the lower 48, we look for ways to expand the business, develop more, bring more natural gas to market. i'm involved in our resource allocation, which plays do we decide to allocate capital to. where do we send drilling rigs to drill additional wells. i'm involved in organizational designs and where we allocate people to, and i also set the overall expectations and ensure that our organization is adhering to our code of conduct. >> and from my understanding, when you say organizational design, does that include organizational design of the people that work in houston? for offshore facilities? >> gentleman no, i'm only responsible for our onshore gas business. >> okay. what other oil and gas experience have you had prior to this job, sir? >> from january 2005 until john of spend, i was the general manager for atco, which is abu dahbi onshore oil company. bp has a 10% interest in this company and historically the shareholders have voted in a general manager to run that company, and i was fortunate enough to do that during that period of time. from september 2002 until january of 2005, i was the leader for our gulf of mexico shelf shallow water business. and then prior to that, i was the business unit leader for our rocky mountains onshore gas business from june of 2000 to september of 2002. from august 1997 up until the time i took over the rockies, i was the general manager for crescendo resources, which was a joint venture company, once again in the onshore gas business. and then prior to that, i've held various engineering and management positions, usually in the gas business, some in the oil, but always in the onshore in either canada or the u.s. >> and mr. wells, the primary purpose that we have you before the board today is to discuss some correspondence that you had back with m.m.s. in 2003. do you recall that letter, sir? >> why yes i do. >> the response letter and the presentation that you gave? >> yes, i do. >> have you reviewed that letter since then, since -- in the last week or so? >> yes. when i heard that's what you wanted to talk about, i did ask to see a copy of it and i've looked at it. >> can you please tell the board what the letter dated september 24, 2003, that was addressed to you, what it was about? >> in august 2002, and this was just before i took over the role leading our shallow water, there had been an incidents where -- we were drilling the surface casing, so this is in the very shallow part of the well, before we actually have a blowout preventer put on, when they were tripping the drill pipe out, they swapped gas in, and they subsequently had a fire. on that rig. and then in november 2002, a few months later, in the same field, in a similar situation, it was once again a very shallow zone before we put a blowout preventer on, but at the time we were setting the surface casing and we had cemented the well in place, there was pressure buildup so it appeared like there might have been some gas flow and they shut in the diverter, we didn't have a fire or anything, but we did have pressure on the diverter, and we had out of an abundance of caution, just moved everybody off the rig because there was nothing more we could do until the cement set up and as a result of those two incidents, i received this letter. >> do you recall the results of the grand isle 1993c track 4 well, do you recall, as a result did you lose the rig? >> no. >> did it have significant damage? >> yes, i -- like i say, that happened before, but i believe there was something like maybe a couple million dollars worth of damage to the equipment on the rig. >> and just so we're clear, that this second incident just a few months later was the same sand? >> i don't know if it was exactly the same sand, but i know it was clearly a -- what we call a shallow gas hazard. >> within the same block? >> yes. >> i wanted you to refer to the last centers of the first paragraph and if you could read that out loud, please. >> the circumstances surrounding these incidents have raised questions about the ability of bp to safely conduct drilling operations in the gulf of mexico. >> okay. and then i'd like you to go to the second page, and the last sentence of the third paragraph. >> this appears to indicate that bp does not regard its required oversight of contractor operations to the level of accountability mms desires. >> and with those two statements, what do you think the deepwater horizon shows about that, the deepwater horizon incidents, how do you feel that this letter addresses the incident that we had on april 20th? >> i don't think i can metropolitan on that. as you're aware, i never worked in the deep water. i wasn't involved with the deepwater horizon at all. i've only become involved two days after the incident happened, i was asked to come and help with our response. i think we did try to -- when we were sent this letter, we did meet with the m.m.s. and we explained to them all the changes we had already made before we received this letter, in response to those two incidents and i think we -- i thought we successfully demonstrated that we were trying to be quite proactive to learning from events and making changes. >> okay. and in that meeting with the m.m.s., you gave a presentation and i believe we asked you to address personal competency, hazard analysis an contingency plan, is that correct? >> the -- in the meeting, what we did is we read the letter an we laid out a series of what we thought the issues were in the letter and went through and talked about what we had top for each of those. >> i want you to refer to the letter again. specifically, there was a sentence where we would like you to address the personal competency, it's the last sentence of the letter, outside of please contact. can you have read of particular importance on. >> of particular importance, is the system of supervision, expertise and control that bp employees in its gulf of mexico drilling operations. >> and that was our concern back then, was the expertise, the control, and the supervision that bp had in place. and that's what i want to talk to you about today. >> okay. >> let's start with supervision concerning the incident that occurred on april 20th. who was supervising the operations on board the deepwater horizon? >> i do not know. >> how do you not know that, sir, i'm just trying to figure out how someone if bp, that's been as involved in this process as you, does not know that? >> well, i've been very involved with the response, and one of the philosophies that i have and i think bp shares, is when you're involved with a response, particularly one as significant as this, if you start wandering into all the root causes and the investigation, you'll lose your focus on the response. and it's not a good thing to do. so i have tried very hard, not to get engaged. i won't tell you i don't listen to the television from time to time, that i read the newspaper, clearly i do, because i'm involved a lot in responding to the media, but who exactly was -- i've really haven't tried to pave attention to that. >> let me clarify the question. who does bp have in a position to supervise operations on the deepwater horizon? >> we have a well site leader on all of our drilling operations, who sets the expectations and makes sure that the objectives that are set out for the operation are properly communicated. >> as a supervisor, a well site leader, would you expect that person to share information to all rig personnel on any gas flow potential. >> i think it -- what we try to do, very carefully, you know, with the drilling operation where you have so many people involved operating the rig, we friday to make sure that the lines of communication are clear, and we try not to direct the employees of another company, so we have safety management systems that clearly define that, and so we expect our well site leaders to properly communicate the objectives of the well, what the plans are, but not absolutely direct the employees on the rig on what to do. >> okay. while they do have morning meetings with the personnel site leaders, swaco, weatherford, dril-quip, all these companies that are out there participate in the morning site meetings. would you expect a supervisor would share information about the risk associated with the potential gas flow on a cement job? >> i would expect that if one of our well site leaders had information about a risk that he would share it, yes. >> would you think a supervisor, a well site leader, on the deepwater horizon would have final say in the utilization of how many centralizers go on a well? >> that i don't know. i don't know how the process works on how many centralizers to use. >> were you aware of the bp drilling and well operations policy, sir, when you were working in the gulf of mexico? >> i'm certainly aware of it now. i'm trying to recall whether it was the same one in place then, but i'm familiar with our -- well, familiar, i'm aware of our duap policy. >> i'll use the acronym because you're familiar with it. who actually supervises that this is implemented what's in this dwap? >> that's a good question. i don't think we have sort of one individual. we try to make sure all of our people in dwelling are aware it. it's meant to be as a guide. we do audits, we have technical authorities for different aspects of our business that try to help bring all the expertise we have inside the company to give us the best result we're looking -- in hour drilling efforts. >> because we've gone through some exercises and had some conversation with other bp employees concerning a lot of the stuff that's referenced in this document and one of the things is management change and that's one of the bp golden rules, we yesterday had the discussion with mr. thierens about not only management change in procedures or designs, we also had personnel discussions come up. is there an individual that goes and that is solely responsible to ensure that the bp gold epiphany rules are actually followed, or whether they even exist? >> well, -- so our belief around safety is that we need everyone feeling responsible for not only their own personal safety, but the safety of the people around them, so our policies and our procedures and our approach are sort of geared towards trying to create that safety culture, so it's not where one person is trying to do it, we try to have everybody thinking about what are the hazards, what activity are we going on, we have a policy of stopping the job, we hopefully make sure that every single employee out there knows at any point, they can stop the job when at the believe there's a hazard that we haven't addressed or there's a risk that needs to be dealt with. >> another thing that we talked about, you mentioned audits. there's been communityless audits that we've referenced in these hearings and there's been items that weren't addressed in the timely fashion that bp had requested transocean to get them in. the first one that comes to mind, we beat it to data yesterday, was the certification of the bop stack and the audit that bp performed on the deepwater horizon. i think they requested transocean to have the bop stack certified, part of the oim and ami requirements by the end of 2009. april 2010 comes around, we get another audit and it's the same response. how do you explain that you have these audits with these recommendations and they aren't fulfilled? >> >> i'm not really the best person to ask that question. i'm not involved with the deep water. i don't know the specifics about it. clearly, i've heard that there's been a lot of focus on the audits. we do use audits to try to help us identify opportunities to improve and we do look to make those improvements, but i don't know the specifics about it. >> okay. now i'm going to move on to expertise. we just went over supervision. i have want to go on now to the expertise side. who would you think by position is the expert that bp has on the deepwater horizon? >> >> well, once again, won the specifics, but what we do is try to bring all the expertise we have to bear to any operation we have. so it's not just one person. we have people that have specialty in terms of drilling operations, casing design, cement design, operation, so we actually usually try to have a number of experts involved in each operation, and we bring people from further outside, if we need them. >> would you expect an expert on the rig to have to rely on the beach for guidance in the performance and interpretation of such tests as negative tests? >> that would be up to the decision of the individual on what their expertise level was, what the results were of whatever test or activity you had going on and whether they felt they needed to consult with someone else. >> do you think from your experience the rigs or platform were relied on on the beach? >> i don't know. >> jammed how long did you work in the -- and how long did you work in the gulf of mexico, sir? >> i was there from -- for a little over two years. but that was in the shallow water business. we had a deep water business as well. >> i'm very aware of the differences between the two, but when you were in shallow water, did you have a reliance of the people operating the rigs contact your people on the beach? >> we clearly had communications. when that individual felt they needed to be. for instance, in the incident that we were talking about, the -- when we had pressure after the cementing job, there was a call made, and that was when the decision was taken -- there's no more activity that can be done, let's move everyone out of harm's way. it just seem like the prudent thing to do. >> why would bp have to have a meeting on the beach, to discuss their well site leaders and to encourage them to let their experience do their own job? >> i'm sorry. can you clarify. >> there was a meeting between multiple people on the beach to address the well spite leaders and mr. john guide, mr. simms, mr. o'brien, all these gentlemen were involved in it, and it was to let the experience of the rig do their job, because there was reliance on its beach, so if you have the experts on the beach an you have the gentlemen on the rig relying on their expertise, i mean, you've got all these communications and the people that know the best are not in a position to do the best for the rig. >> i guess i'm still a little confused. i don't know what meeting it is or -- were they talking about all of our well site leaders, or -- >> yes, sir. there was a general meeting to discuss the well spite leaders, an we're going to discuss that with mr. o'brien later today and it was to encourage the people on the rig to rely on their own experience to do their own job, instead of relying on the beach. >> okay. i'm not aware of that. i mean, i'm not sure why they would do it. i do know we do have meetings, trying to look at what is the capability of our work force and what can we do to improve things, and perhaps that was something they felt would be an improvement. >> >> testimony before the board indicated that the people bp had on the rig to set the lockdown sleeve had never set one before. who was the actual person that you would consider the expert if they had never done one before to be the lockdown sleeve setting expert? >> i don't know. >> >> would you expect pan expert overseeing the cement job to understand what gas flow potential? >> yes. yevment. >> would you expect an expert to stop work or interrupt it if he saw a hazard? >> i would expect any person that saw a hazard, whether they're an expert or not, to stop the job. >> to your knowledge, was work ever stopped on april 20th on board the deepwater horizon? >> i don't know. but i do foe that we've had many, many jobs stopped. >> so we've gone over supervision and expertise and now i want to move on to control. what types of systems does bp have in place, control systems to ensure that the plans and procedures that they wants to have followed through are actually being done to bp's approval? >> we have a number of systems. dwop for one, gives us guidance. we have a system that we've been working on for the last several years, called oms, which is our operations management system. and that's -- the purpose of that system is to sort of bring together, so we're very systemic and consistent across the whole company, the way we expect things to be done, and it sets out, we have some standards in there, and what we do is we use that to set the guidelines for activity we might do, and then also, to work with our contractors that probably already have their own safety management systems to make sure that we believe their systems are adequate. >> okay. >> and we touched on this earlier and i just want to ask you again, how did bp have control over the maintenance of the deepwater horizon? >> i don't know that specifically. >> >> how did bp have control over the alarm systems on the deepwater horizon? >> i don't know. >> you did respond to a letter, the letter that we sent you, correct? concerning the plans that bp would have to implement to address our concerns of addressing expertise, control, and supervision. >> you're talking about the 2002 ins depths? >> yes, sir. >> yes. and i attended the meeting with the mms as well and went through the changes that we made at that time. >> so what systems did you put in place to control such things? >> so in the situation, the two incidents that we had, they were both associated with shallow gas hazards. which i want to distinguish that from, you know, there's reservoirs that we try to produce oil and gas for, we're looking to find those. the shallow gas hazards, we're actually look to go avoid those. >> i understand. >> so the first thing we did, because we realized that while we had geophysical people that were very good at finding the bigger reservoirs, they weren't as good at finding these very, very small shallow gas hazards, so we put in place a very sophisticated team that was very good at finding those. and after those two incidents, we never had another shallow gas event again. as -- the whole time i was involved in the shelf business. so that was the first thing we did to try to eliminate that. the second thing we did was we added some additional supervision, at the time we called them dwelling superintendents, -- drilling superintendents, today they're called wells team leaders, and the purpose of the drilling superintendent, they didn't sit on the rigs, but they often went out to of the rigs and they tried to bring some additional support, expertise, guidance to what was going on out at the rig, so it made it easier for the well site leaders to have someone to communicate to. they also spent more time with our contractors, and back then, we had quarterly meetings with them discussing expectations, discussing what had happened f there had been safety incidents, what were we going to do to change that, so those were some of the things that we did. we also made some specific changes to the operations, the first incident, which was really involved with drilling, we -- we put in a procedure that made sure that any time we came out of the hole, which caused the events, we would do what we call pump -- pump it out, which means we continue to pump mud, so you couldn't have the swabbing action that we believe caused the first incidents. we mrs. made sure the mud weight was never plo below 9.5. we used what was called a gas block cement, hopefully reduce the gas that might come out of the cement at these shallow intervals. we -- what else did we do? oh, we -- our surface casing was then always run with a casing hangar man drill, so it was just a different way to get a seal in place sooner. so as soon as we were done cementing, before it was set up, we had that in place. and then we had a very clear decision tree on how we'd use the diverter, that if we did get pressure, we'd shut in the diverter, we'd monitor pressure, at a certain pressure, well open up and divert if that was the case, and so we brought some clarity to that decision-making process. >> where i'm going, sir, is we're concerned about bp's supervision, their expertise and the control on the rigs. is it your testimony that just because it was -- occurred in shallow water or shallow wells, you didn't carry that controls, expertise an whatever other policies you put in place into deepwater? >> well, it's difficult for me to say for sure, but we do have a very good process, inside our drilling organization, of any incidents we have, we share across, an we look at each business looks at those, and to try to determine if that applies to their business. now, i do know that in deep water, the drilling operation is very different and when you've got floating platforms an you have b.o.p.'s on the sea floor, versus fixed platforms and bishop'b.o.p.'s on the surface,f they took everything and applied it, i can't say for sure, but we have a process of sharing our incidents of drilling across our organization worldwide. >> i asked yesterday a bp employee if he had any control over that and he told me no, so would you agree with him that the modification that is were made without bp being aware that you had no control of that? >> well, once again, i can't speak specifically. >> i'm not speaking specifically. i'm speaking generally. >> if the equipment is owned by someone else, i guess it's possible that they could make modifications that we may or may not know about. >> and who are they working for? >> who is -- >> the operator, that's making -- that's drilling, responsible for oil and gas operations on the lease. >> well, we clearly contract with people to do work for juice. >> and you have to control over the people that you have under your own contract? >> no, actually, we -- with people that work for us, we do several things. first of all, we try to choose wise my on who we contract with in the first place. we then put contracts in place that specify certain things. and then particularly, with drilling rigs or any operation where there's a lot of contract employees, we have learned over time and made this change a number of years back, where we try to use the management system of that contractor, because if their employees are used to that system and they happen to work for different people, you done want them constantly changing, so we friday to use their safety management system, but what we do do is look at it to see if that meets our expectations. absenteeism then we use it and if we need something above and beyond that, we'll make that credit. -- that request. >> i'm going to move on to something that bp in my opinion should have total control over and that's their own well design and internal policies. we're well aware that they submitted their apd, which was approved but had not been approved internally through their own management change process, so would you think that bp has control of the process that they have designed in this dwop, that they submitted their apd prior to going through the formal management change? >> please appreciate, i'm just not involved with it, so it's difficult -- >> i know you're not involved with it. i'm just asking the question, where i think, do you think they had control, if they didn't go through the formal moc process that's clearly defined in their dwop, before they have submitted their apd to the mms, which met the minimum regulations, did they have control over that porousness. >> i know -- pro yeast. >> i know bp expense a lot of time on -- >> i know bp spends a lot of time on their process. >> bp also has permit to modify. >> i'm not familiar with that particular pro yeast. >> do you know what an apd is? >> i know what an apd is. >> an apm, when you're doing a work over modifier completion. within that apm, you norm my submit what we call a procedure and there's a thing called a negative test that was in the procedure. the board, i've seen probably four different negative tests through an operations e-mail sent by mr. morell, i've seen some testimony from individual on the rig that did something totally different than what was in that ops manual and i've seen one that was referenced in an m.i. swaco procedure and there was another one that i've seen. i don't know which one they did to be honest with you. do you think there was any control over the performance of a neglect testify test on the deepwater horizon, there's four procedures being sent out to the rig. >> i don't know how i can comment on that. >> okay. >> you touched on the drilling superintendent earlier, an we were going to ask you about that, because we asked a bp employee who was a current well site leader if he knew what that was and he responded no but i think you cleared up, it is now a well site leader. >> wells team leader. >> wells team leader. >> was it once called the drilling superintendent and they did an organizational change to call it a wells team leader? >> when we moved -- if you look at the letters, we used to call them rig supervisor and we realized we're not supervising the rig, so that's what we changed to well site leader, that was when we changed drilling superintendents to wells team leaders, an we changed some names to try to more accurately reflect on what we thought the people's real roles were. >> but to your knowledge, was it an organizational change that created that wells team leader? >> that occurred when i have was in the middle east and i was sorts of out, but i don't know if there was a major organizational change or it was a minor one that they changed some titles. i just don't know the specifics of it, but i know it was a conscious effort to try to improve the way we managed our drilling and completion operations. >> and my final question about control is, did bp have control of the ongoing operations on the deepwater horizon on april 20th? i don't think it's that tough of a question. i'm not trying -- >> please repeat it again. >> did bp have control over the operations that were going on board the deepwater horizon on april 20th, as a prudent operator, did you have control over the operations? >> i believe we would have set expectations, whether we actually had control, that i can't tell you. >> >> i have no further questions, sir. thank you. >> other board members. >> yes. >> mr. wells, i am like to refer back to the first page of the letter dated september 24, 2003, around i would like for you to read out of the first paragraph, or begin with the first paragraph, and read that for us, for the -- for everyone in the room. please. >> the first paragraph. >> yes, sir. >> recently, a number of incidents involving bp drilling operations have occurred in the gulf of mexico. that's incidents seem to have root causes related to incomplete planning, poor communication, insufficient knowledge or training, lack of effective supervision. the circumstances surrounding these incidents have raised questions about the ability of bp to safely conduct drilling operations in the gulf of mexico. >> thank you. now, if you would, refer over to the -- to the presentation to the slide that's titled, issues and responses, issue number 3, you touched on some of this already. but the the first bullet under the response, organizational enhancements, you talk about adding drilling superintendents and you discussed that, that those are now called wells teams leader, but i would like to go down to the second bullet where it states that y'all added senior drilling advisers to provide on-site assurance. and this is for shallow water shelf operations. was this also shared with the deep water group at that time as well, were these changes also made to the deep water group? >> i don't know if, in particular, adding the drilling advisers were. that was something where we felt we had outstanding experience in a couple people that we wanted to be panel to disseminate to all of our operations and so we created these drilling advisers that we could then send out an assist the -- at the time they were called rig supervisors, but the well site leaders, so that was something specifically we did. i don't know whether the deep water business decided to do something similar or not. >> who was your equivalents for the deep water at that time? >> kenny lang. >> that's lang. >> lang. >> panned is he still currently employed with bp? >> no. he retired a few years back. >> thank you. and then the next bullet down, bp personnel changes were made. could -- and i know it's been eight years, seven years ago, could you elaborate some on what some of those changes were? >> and i did have a discussion with our wells manager, because i was trying to -- and what we recall, so what i best -- is at the time we had an asset organization, and we had some of our drilling people reporting up through the asset and what we did was bring more clarity to the reporting so that we had our expertise line from top to bottom, which is very similar to what our organization is today, so that is what we recall that was about, was making some adjustments to reporting relationships, to have real clarity to where we had the expertise. >> okay. and i'd like to back up. you mentioned in your testimony, to mr. matthews, that the first events that though cured on the c4 sidetrack well in grand isle block 93, that that occurred in august, shortly before you came to work in that position. how long were any that current position? when you came to work or took that assignment in october -- september, october? >> september 2002? >> why yes, sir. >> how long had i been where? >> how long were you in that position once you game in to that position in september 2002? >> i was there from september 2002 to january 2005. >> and in 2005, you went -- you became what? >> i became the general manager of adco in the united arab emirates. >> and how long were you in that position? >> from january 2005 until june 2007. >> >> i have no other questions. thank you. >> good morning, mr. wells. >> just so i understand,, the superintendent is equivalent to mr. john guy's position now, for this particular incident? >> if he's a wells team leader, then the answer is yes. >> the first person they report to on land? >> yes. >> that would be what you're talking about. >> yes. >> okay. if people become depend entrepreneur on the well site leader, and the well site leader is making the decisions, is there some sort of problem there, when he's not on the rig? and where i'm going there, is people on the rig have a vested interest, a bigger vested interest in safety because they're involved immediately in any event. >> your honor, i believe he meant to say wells team leader, they're dependent on the wells team lead he were. he said if ear fendent on the wells site leader, but he's not on the rig. the well site leader is on the rig. >> sir, are you talking about john guide as being the superintendent equivalent? >> we have a well site leader that's on the rig, in fact, we typically have one per dave and one for night. and then there's a wells -- well, i need to be careful, because i -- we've made changes in the first quarterrer of the deep water organization, which i'm not completely familiar with. but i can speak pourfully to what the -- powerfully to what the dwelling superintendent, an they weren't assigned to any one rig, like a well spite leader is assigned to a particular rig. they were to go around and help at a number of different locations. >> okay. they were supposed to go offshore and vims it's the rigs on of -- visit the rigs on a regular basis? >> why yes. >> were the rigs supposed to be dependent on their decisions? >> no. the well site leader is bp's representative out on the site. but i think like in any organization, you depend upon others for expertise to supplement your own experience and knowledge. and that's what we were -- we're providing when we added the dwelling superintendent, was -- drilling superintendent, was taking advantage of people that had some real expertise and providing it to others to supplement their own. >> so do you feel like this has been carried over into the current offshore setup? >> clearly, the concept of that, yes. >> and could you explain that? >> the -- what we believe is we want to bring the best expertise of our entire organization to every operation and so we assign people, for instance, well spite leaders, who are out there as our representative, set the expectations, but they clearly have access into different people and we also make sure that we stay connected, so we understand what their expertise is, etc., and so they evaluate how those well site leaders are doing. >> just one final question. do you think it's a good circumstance when the person making the majority decision is on the beach for bp? >> well, so -- when i take that with your earlier question, to me, it doesn't matter whether you're on the beach or on the rig. we're talking about people here. that this is about -- we want everyone to go home, just like they came, so whether i was on a rig or i'm in the office, i care just as much about that operation as someone that's there. >> thank you, sir. >> good morning, mr. wells. now are you talking about your responsibilities for shallow water as parts of your duties before? >> why yes. >> now we have a lot of bp's of drilling and completions come before us, and i can't -- i don't have enough fingers to count how many of them and a lot -- and a lot of -- their answer was i don't know, i'm not responsible for this or that. now for the gulf of mexico, who has the total awareness and accountability for the safe operation of bp deep water operation? >> well, as i tried to say earlier, we friday not to make it one person. that's not a good outcome to have just one person worry about it. we try to have everybody focused operational plan safe operations panned so we friday to create a culture where everybody is worried about what the hazards are, what activity is going on, have we got the right plan in place, etc. and to from a safety perspective, it's not one person, it's clearly we want everyone's head in the game on that. >> yes, sir. so if nobody is in charge, if everybody is in charge, nobody in charge, is that correct? >> i disagree when it comes to safety. i think we want to have everybody feeling like they can stop the job. >> sure. mr. james dupree would be the one in charge of the safety of bp deep water operation in the gulf of mexico? >> james dupree has the same job that -- the job that i have for onshore, james has for the deep water business and as i described my responsibilities in terms of strategy, planning, allocating presources, etc., he has the same role. >> okay. so is there one golden rule for him and one golden rule for him, or bp just have one golden rule? >> the eight golden rules that we have apply to every employee, and also apply to all of our operations, people coming in to our operations. >> okay. how about safety code, you indicated there are safety codes here for onshore and safety codes for offshore? or is that the same procedure? >> we prief. -- we friday to have the same safety >> we friday to have of the same safety culture everywhere and there does need to be different focuses, whether you're onshore or offshore, the operations activities are different, so you try to get the same culture, but you want people to be concerned about different things. >> but is should be the same culture, which is safety first, correct? >> absolutely on safety first. >> all right. >> in fact, we talk about safe and reliable operations, we talk about that everywhere if bp. >> all right. so how about safety management system, do you have one safety management system for shore approval rating one safety management system for offshore? >> what we have is in our oms or operations management system, we have one operations management system for the entire company. then for each business, we do what we call our local oms, which is taking that overpaul system, and -- overall system and applying it to your specific business, so things that might be very important to the onshore business would not be important to the offshore business and vice versa. so you will adapt how you actually take the management system. it's consistent, if it's the same aspect, you'll look to do it the same, but it will have -- you'll have different priorities depending upon where you are. >> all right. so if you've got one incident that's a data points, if you've got two incidents, that's a line, if you got more than two, are we are trained, is that correct? so i want to see what kind of training we have here in terms of safety culture. the incident that mr. mathews raised, i guess back in 2002, some of the issues there, how about the incident back on march 23, 2005, with the fire and explosion that occurred at bp texas city refinery, are you pay wear of that incident? >> i'm very aware of it, yes, sir. >> would you likely to talk to that? >> yes, sir. well, the chemical safety board did an investigation, and one of their conclusions was that cost cutting, fail pure to invest in production pressure from bp group executive managers, impair process, safety performance at texas city. so some of those -- i read the report and it's very similar, elements similar to the one that mr. mathews, the incidents he cited. now -- so that's two data points. the third data point here is the deepwater horizon. some of the issues that mr. matthew brought up in terms of the moc process, and other items, tell me there's training there about the safety culture of bp. now if you have one safety culture an you have this training that, you know, pains a picture of a safety culture, is it a good safety -- have you learned from these lessons, to make sure that you have a proper safety culture in place, not just for onshore, not just for offshore, but for the entire companies that cover our operations, so that's -- >> so the texas city explosion and fire was a devastating event for us. while i have was in the middle east at the time, not even in the immediate bp organization, i was very aware of what happened. in fact, john mockford who led our investigation of it, i asked him to come over and he presented to my leadership team on what happened in that event and what bp learned from it, an we made some changes in atco as well. in bp, it's had a dramatic impact. we try very diligently to show there is not a conflict between safety and cost. never should cost get in the way of doing something safely. and i know it's my personal belief, that i think safe and efficient operations go and in hand. if you properly plan your work, you'll do it safely, and when you properly plan your work, you'll do it cost effectively, so they are not in conflict. they don't need to be, they shouldn't be, and if they ever do get in conflict, safety needs to be priority one. that's my personal belief and that's shared inside of bp. clearly, texas city indicated we had some issues, which we've tried to deal with. i can speak pourfully to the changes that i've made in my own

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