i was astounded to find i have never heard of this man. i have done a lot of writing for the new york times. i worked for smithsonian magazine and read about the civil war for them and i had never heard of him. it was a little article that encapsulated his life and i wanted to know more. i wanted to know how this man, who have been told from the time he was a young child that he was not worth anything could have had the courage and determination to find a way out of slavery. i was intrigued and could not reading about him. 1839.born in where was he born and into what situation? guest: he was born in piu forte, south carolina, 75 miles from charleston. it is a very small town at the time, but a very wealthy town. he it was founded with -- the wealth of the town had was from flames that had been imported from west africa. indigo, crops were cotton, and rice. it was mostly rice. he at the time -- host: as you are talking, i was thinking about who was his mother and father? guest: we do not know who his father was. many people believe he was the owner of smalls. his mother was a slave born on the plantation of the mckie family. she was nine or 10 and taken from the plantation with the mckee family-- the to help raise their children. it does not look like he ever knew. the name smalls comes from -- it was chosen by a robert himself. guest: they were a wealthy family in beaufort, beaufort royalty. they were a prominent family that had the respect of a lot of people. robert was fortunate in the fact mckee was a very kind owner. he was still in flames, which made it a difficult life. he was fortunate in the fact that he was raised as a house serving with his mother. obviously, no one who was life theys having a deligh the would like. it was much more -- they had access to information and they food andlar frui hand-me-down clothes. host: how many brothers and sisters? son p lydia had one by the time she had robert, she was in her 40's. but he pretty much grew up as an only child living in the house, the slave house behind the mckee house, which still exists today in beaufort on the historic registry. what is beaufort, south carolina like? i know people make a mistake all the time that there is a beauford, north carolina. how far is it from houston? guest: 75 miles, also on the coast. beaufort is a beautiful town. very small compared to charleston. at the time, they did have a lot of slaves living in town and robert would have gone out to the plantations with mckee to help him with some of his duties. he was seeing a lot of different ways of life. host: let me interrupt to point out this map. if you were straining to find out where beaufort is an charleston, it is right down there on the southern, southeastern point there. guest: it was a very strategic place for the union army in 1851.er, that is where they decided they were going to have a port. for oil is just south -- port royal is just south of beaufort, the first naval victory of the war. and by doing so, by this point, smalls was already in general thin. he had been relocated there by his owner. the861, the union captured area and buford became this union stronghold. charleston citizens very worried because they were so close. host: why did the civil war start interest in? guest: south carolina was the first state to secede. austin was known as the spiritual capital of the confederacy. it was not as strategical place to capture as it would be a moral victory for the union. it quickly became a place where the union wanted to capture it and they wanted to prove to the south that they were the victor. host: the war actually started on what date? do you remember? guest: april 12, 1861. that's right. [laughter] host: how many people lived in that part of the united states? compared to the north, there were a lot fewer people living in the south, but charleston was a place where a lot of -- during the international slave trade, about 60% of slaves who came into the country came through charleston. it was a major port in the country. and it was, like i said before, a very important spiritual capital of the confederacy. a lot of good then services came out of charleston, and compared to beaufort, there was a major city for smalls. he was relocated there by his owner when he was just 12 years old. mckee decided he was going to move houses and we think that lydia, robert's mother, encouraged mckee to allow robert to go to charleston with the hopes of having more options. of course, he was hired out as a slave, which was a common practice at the time. so he was on his own to find work, but everything he earned went back to mckee. host: what was a slave worse than? guest: it depended on several factors. one was your age, how muscular you were, lots of factors went into this. i know that when robert eventually married a woman named hannah, and when hannah was sold to her owner, kingman, in 1847, she and her three children were worth about $2000. host: hannah was how much older than robert? guest: about 13 years older, considerably older. host: you say you legally could not marry if you were a slave? guest: that is right. it was a law in south carolina, but they were able to get the permission of their owners. robert smalls had to get the permission of henry mckee and he also had to go to hannah's owner and ask permission for her. it was only something that was allowed for trusted slaves. it was something that would help their morale and it was something that they can easily do. i mean, of course, any slave children that were born would become the property of the female slave owner, so it would encourage relationships and marriage when possible. host: how did you get interested in the civil war? guest: ever since i was young. i have two ancestors -- i grew up knowing that both ancestors fought on gettysburg, either side of the war. that was very intriguing to me. one was 28 years all the he was one of the pennsylvania buck. another was a 19-year-old kid from north carolina. they were both injured at gettysburg and the confederate was actually sent to a pow camp. that was intriguing to me. the more i read about it as i got older and root pieces for the new york times blog, i became intrigued. it is such a fascinating time in our history area i think the reverberations of the war are clearly still being felt today. so i think it is an important period for us to understand. smalls'obert story that intrigues me, but he is a video call for the racial relationships at the time, what i thought was very interesting. i thought i was fairly knowledgeable about the subject, but i learned there was a much more i did not know. host: what was one of the first things you learned that you did not know? guest: i did not realize when is enslaved person -- that the preferred term by a people because it gives the power back to the person -- they were enslaved rather than defining them as a slave -- but for those that were enslaved and got to their freedom, i did not realize they were considered contraband, so robert smalls, when he actually became -- got to the union ships in his great escape, he was not actually free. now, most slaves did not recognize that necessarily, but it was an important point. the u.s. government was not ready to say whether we were going to free all the slaves, whether that was a point of the war. it was a major factor. i did not realize how much lincoln had also, you know, he was trying to placate the border states so much, that for so long, he was not sure what he was going to do about the slaves either. host: where did you grow up? guest: i grew up in raleigh, north carolina. unc chapel hill. host: to study the civil war, how did you go about it? how often did he go where there is a battle? guest: i read a lot of books. my research, for these writing projects come i did that. i also certainly have been to gettysburg and other major civil war attractions. i think going to anyplace is so important to get a feel when you are doing your research, which is why i spent time in austin and beaufort. when you start seeing the places where these people walked, it becomes more real to you. the more wethink, can learn about the civil war, the better off we will all be. it is still impacting us today. host: robert smalls footer graph is on the screen. tell us some things about him. how long did he live? ved until 1915. he ended up becoming a u.s. congressman. he served five terms in the house of representatives. -- it was difficult after he had been accused -- there was a bribery charge against him at one point in his career. he never fully recovered from that. my opinion, that is one of the reasons he is not better known today. he ended up ending his career as , customs collector in beaufort but when i look at this man, i see someone who had incredible courage and perseverance. he had ended up -- well, several children. one young boy died during the war. his other three children that he had throughout his life, he valued education and he made sure they had the best education they could. and when i look at him, i see a father who was very concerned that his children have a better life. it is ultimately the reason that he decided to take the chance that he did in escaping on the planter. he risks everything to -- he risked everything. he had a four-year-old and young son at the time along with his wife out of slavery. host: what is the plantar? that: a side wheel steamer roberts was working on. it was built right before the war happened. war -- it was used as a cause and transport ship. once the were broke out, the owner of it, john ferguson, started leasing it to the confederates. , a considerable amount. when robert decided he was going to escape on board the ship, it was may 1862. he had been working on board -- he started as a deckhand but worked as a wheelman or a pilot. they would not give the title of time,to a slave at the but that essentially is what he was doing. he escaped in may 1862. into if he was a slave olson, and you are walking around, how does someone know you are enslaved? guest: charleston has a unique custom in that they had slave badges that they required all slaves to wear. they are usually diamond shaped metal badges. it was like a license. every year, they would have to get a badge that said what occupation they were doing and what year it was. and so, any flavor that was walking around, including smalls, would have had to wear a badge at all times, in part to differentiate them from the free black population, which i did not realize was fairly substantial in charleston. about 3000 free blacks at the time. host: how did the free black and enslaved blacks get along? guest: i think a lot of people -- a lot of free blacks often times tried to help their sisters byothers and a actually purchasing -- by actually purchasing them. it was the legal unless the legislature approved it to you your slaves by this point. by this point, a lot of free blacks are just family members as a way to get them out of the control of their owner. very debated is a topic and there are lots of interesting story, but there certainly were some free blacks who owned slaves as well. but i think robert was part of several secret societies. we do not know a lot of their dealings, but mutual aid societies. some of them were with free blacks, and some made up of slaves, but they tried to help each other. when one person family member died, they might contribute for a penal or all contribute to help with some -- all contribute for a funeral. there was some reciprocity and interactions within the community, but for the most part, i think slaves were so controlled that they did not have a lot of time to interact. it was illegal for more than three or so african-americans to meet together without a white person present. host: so just for this moment, if you were inflamed and all of a sudden, you were sold, do you just take the badge off? guest: if you were enslaved and sold -- host: sold to a freeman? a free black. or it did not matter. you all of a sudden -- let us say you are sold to someone else and they just read you, what would happen? guest: technically, you were not freed because it is illegal. it is a great, interesting question. i would assume you would still have to follow the rules of the day and you could not -- you were still limited because you were still a slave even though, for all intents and purposes, you were living with your family member who had purchased you. so i think that you would still probably be wearing a slave badge and walking around. host: so when the attack came at of 1861,er in april where was robert smalls on that day? guest: he was already working on board the planter. he was a deckhand. we do not know specifically what he saw that day, but i'm sure he saw a lot of the white charleston onions watching -- white charlestonians. it was something. both sides thought the war would end very quickly. we had millions of deaths. robert also would have seen a lot of the celebrations in the streets. fireworks going off. they wanted this battle at that point, the white charlestonians. host: when did it all begin that robert smalls wanted to figure out a way to get away from the confederates? guest: i think he was always looking as he was growing older, but once he married hannah, he was 17 years old when they married. they soon had children and that his look fored freedom a lot more. he did not want them to grow up in the atmosphere he had. there were some very brutal aspects of charles and particularly your there was something called the workhouse want if an owner did not to punish his plays by himself, he could send them for a fee to the workhouse, which was a former sugar warehouse. sometimes, owners would threaten their slaves by saying "i'm going to send you for a little sugar." host: was that located downtown in charleston? guest: that no longer i exists now. slaves to be punished there. there were barbaric cap takes. there was a treadmill. it was pretty orinda stuff. robert would have seen that growing up and so yeah. host: was he or any of his family members ever sent to the workhouse? guest: we don't know. he did talk about, in 1863, he was interviewed by the american freeman. he talked about the brutality he had seen on the fort plant -- on beaufort plantation trying a. his mother, lydia, who was a very important person in creating robert as the person that he was, she instilled in him determination and courage. she had taken him to see some slaves being sold and punished in beaufort when he was a child. through his own words to that commission, we know he saw some pretty brutal things on the foundation including talked about seeing his aunt with. -- aunt ahipped. he was the only member of his family in charleston, so when he was sent there at the age of 12, .e was essentially on his own he was under the supervision of henry mckee's sister-in-law. but you know, just to imagine the 12 year old walking around the streets of charleston, trying to find work, seeing people being bought and sold on the street, and that was always his fear, that his family would be ripped away from him. that was really why he was searching so hard to escape. not just for himself, but his family. it is very -- it was very difficult for a slave to run away. when you have two children into one being a very young child, it is nearly impossible. he really had to find a unique way to escape. he was looking for a long time. host: the ship, the planter, was owned by you? guest: john ferguson. he leased it to the confederacy at the time. host: how big was it? guest: 147 feet long. host: how many people served on it? guest: there was a crew of about 10. that included three white officers. they were officers in the sense that they were working on the book but not enlisted in the confederacy. there was a captain and first mate and a deckhand. unsigned, and an engineer. there was the enslaved crew. smallshen did robert begin the process of trying to do something about the planter? and where was his family? family was nearby in charleston, but a lot of slaves did not live together. they did not see each other regularly. but robert started thinking about escaping soon after a new captain came on board the planter. his name was charles. he had two things that made robert smalls plan possible. he was wearing this widebrimmed straw hat. the third thing that was critical is he often decided to leave the ship in the enslaved crews' hands while they spent time with their families. that was a direct violation of confederate orders, but he either trusted smalls and the other men or he likely did not think they were capable of taking the steamer out of trust in, which was a monumental feat for anyone, but at the time, even in the north, a lot of white did not believe african-americans were capable of such a feat. so you had the white officers and then smalls and his crew on board. host: what was the date of the escape and how did he do it? guns: they had been moving around charleston harbor for two weeks, and smalls was already thinking that -- he joked around with one of his crew members that when the crewmember member put the hat of the captain on robert pothead, -- robert's head, he said maybe i can impersonate this white captain between the straw hat, and we leave at the right time of day, where it is stark enough, and we get out of the harbor. and so -- what was your initial question? host: how did it start? on the day that he decided he wanted to escape, what was the set up? guest: they had been moving these guns across the harbor for the last two weeks and small decided, not only -- if the white crew released tonight and goes home to be with their families, not only could we escape, but we would have guns on board, valuable guns that would be worth everything to the union. his plan was to take the ship from the harbor out to the union fleet, which was blockading the harbor as part of lincoln's blockade of also imports. -- of all southern ports. they had met earlier and all agreed to wait for his signal. he was the mastermind behind the plan. that night,ed that once he found out the white officers were leaving, that was the night they would make their escape. they had been having their families come down in preparation for this event, not knowing exactly which night it would happen, but had their families coming down to spend time with them on board the ship, so it was not unusual for them to be there. in fact, hannah, roberts wife, was the only woman -- the only family member who knew there was a plan that they were waiting to put into place. out that nightd once the slave curfew was about and they keptd saying we need to get back, we need to get back. that is one small decided to tell them what is happening. the union chips and soldiers, were they not inside of charleston? guest: they were outside the harbor. charleston harbor was incredibly fortified by that point. there were numerous confederate fortifications going out who the harbor with fort sumter being the final one with its massive guns. the union fleet was 10 miles bay from where smalls was moored. host: what time of the evening did he leave columbus -- charleston when he was trying to escape? guest: it was about 3:00 a.m. he had gone the family members that accompanied the crude that escaped. they had gotten them to another boat nearby because the plant er was right next to a confederate general's headquarters. not only did smalls have this incredible opportunity -- courage -- to take the planner, but he actually did it when it was next to a confederate general's headquarters. host: he was what it? guest: he was 23. he was not allowed to read or write, had been enslaved his whole life. host: how did the ship move? was it a sail? guest: by steam. they had to put the fires going and get the ship going. so, there was a critical time period. they had to figure out when it would make sense. the ship would be operating normally and when it would be dark enough that it would help cover them. so that is why he decided to leave about 3:00, because he wanted to hit fort sumter around 4:00, 430. it would help obscure him. they had to look like there was a white crew member on board. it would have roused suspicion immediately if anyone had known this was enslaved crew growing through the confederate harbor. when they took off that morning, the new that at any point if one of the sentires or suspected-- sentries that smalls was without a white crew member, they would have immediately attacked and likely, they would have died instantly. host: how often did something like this happen? guest: never. it never happened. there were times when there were -- as soon as the blockade of the southern port happen, there were slaves that swam -- often read both -- to get to the union fleet. was doing any reconnaissance, they would try to find them and ask for them to bring them on board, because once they were on board, they or atonsidered free, least under union control. just two weeks before smalls did his incredible feat, one of the confederate generals headquarters -- there was a small barge that was taken by a few slaves. that was a huge embarrassment to the confederacy. amazingly enough, they did not change any of their security protocols after that had happened. that event may have inspired smalls to do what he did. we don't know, but he was certainly aware of it. host: how much education did he have? guest: he had no education. he had never been allowed to read or write. that was against the law. he was completely illiterate. he would have been -- compared to a plantation slave -- he would have been pretty to a lot to a lot more information because he was listening to conversations. in terms of conversation, he had no education. host: did his mother know he was doing this? guest: that is a great question. likely not. she was in beaufort at the time. she had been in charleston. very rarely got to see her. that was quite a distance to travel. he was living his own life. and because lydia had been in beaufort at the time when the union captured port royal, she was technically under union control. she was actually freed. technically can't demand, but freed while robert was in charleston working as a slave. host: >> so she was actually free, technically a contraband but she in free while robert was charleston working still as a slave. host: so you have charleston and beaufort. where on that coast is petr royal? guest: it's just south of beaufort. host: how many union troops were there? 14,000 landed uring that attack in november, 1861. it was a navy attack and led by admiral samuel du pont. host: what was the atmosphere in the united states in 1862. it that he as escaped? guest: people were realizing the war would end quickly. been several large battles. port.needed a they need a supply there to ships. their i think it was a time where anything was possible. the south could have won at that point. was going to at happen and certainly in charleston people were just waiting, bracing themselves for attack. just 70 miles away, you have . ,000 union soldiers now host: how many other families were allowed to get on-board the planter? there were 16 people total on-board the ship. there were a few changes at the minute. a few men decided they couldn't go through with it. assuming now y. i'm there was fear of reprisal, what could happen to their family members even if they made it. of course, they could have been concerned with their own lives out safely. but the first mate had his family on-board. his wife and two children and then there were two other women. we don't quite know their relationship. they were likely friends or family members of other crew members. know that years later smalls hosted a wedding for one young women, and said, considered her an adopted 16 people t it was on-board that ship that night. ost: how did they get to the union ships out there? guest: so they had the family hidden atd a few crew a wharf that was behind them so wharf, rted at southern backtrack, which would have created suspicion. docouple of noticed.te guards who he just thought they were going about their business. luck with s a lot of them on this whole journey, but hey backtracked to pick up their family members and then they took their time. they had to go slowly. hurry or n't be in a t would arouse suspicion, and they passed all the different forts. hey waited to see if there was any commotion or anybody sensing anything. they were relieved when there wasn't. finally got to sumter. they had to know the right codes ut smalls had done enough reconnaissance trips out, outside of the harbor that he knew the proper code and did it waited patiently to see if they were going to attack or not. aware federates were not of what was going on until smalls turned towards the union the way tead of going he normally would have. wents when the alarm bells off and they sent word to another close by fort to fire smalls and his family and other crew members that point away at to be hit. on. : they were never fired guest: they were. sure.'t know for they were too far away to be hit. i don't know if the confederates attemptedhem but they to. host: so he's on-board the planter. there.ot 16 people on they have come past fort sumter. when do they -- when are they union side and how o they tell the union side that -- they see a confederate ship coming. why did they not fire on them? guest: right. smalls was more worried about this stage of the journey than through the getting confederate harbor. he was a confederate ship going union fleet rds a and they would have assumed they were attacking them in some way. so he devised to have a light bed sheet on-board and as soon sumter they d fort lowered the confederate flag and he south carolina flag, and hoisted a bed sheet. host: was it light yet? guest: it was just getting light of his plan.t he wanted to be seen but there was fog that night. hindering them. so they weren't sure. it was a huge risk. union , we know from the records that the captain of the onward, which was the ship that was closest to them, had the ready and was preparing to fire, and at the last second, he white sheet and said stop. and s a very close call there was another close call. once they actually got towards the ship, i think smalls and the crew were so rattled, they weren't listening to what the union members were telling them they were telling them to go a different way than they were in approaching the ship. the captain said, stop, or i'll blow you out of the water. them to attention and got them reacting appropriately. just been an ve incredible few moments, at any second they could have lost everything. host: so what happened to smalls and the family once they were in union hands? to the planter? guest: well, as soon as smalls to the union ship, he was immediately taken to samuel du charge of the n blockading atlantic squad, and he said, i need this guy. he's valuable. great pilot. we need him. ad so he actually made smalls civilian boat pilot for the union and he did that because if he had enlisted smalls, african-americans, particularly allowedlaves, were only at that point in the war to be classified as a boy, which was lowest classification. so we think that the other crew members were enlisted as boys, was not enlisted. he became a civilian boat pilot working iately started for the union. but word got out in the north mmediately, and he was considered a hero almost overnight. and all harper's weekly these publications were touting him as the hero, and because he behind the er mind the he was really given major kudos, and, above the other men. they were included in the story, smalls whodefinitely was elevated to hero stature. host: where did they live then? well, they ended up staying in the area. working for the union from port royal. but smalls was given an that he e opportunity embraced as he embraced all the given, to ies he was speak on behalf of the port royal experiment, which was that was going on after beaufort and port royal as captured, the whites fled which is not something the union had anticipated. behind, laves were left and were now in the care of the government. he union army, which was already running low on food. they needed help so the port were already asking for donations in the north, but the idea french got that smalls would make a great example as a speaker. he could go around the north and to people and help raise awareness and money and that's what he did. doing, and few months in the course of that he was sent to washington where he met with abraham lincoln and several of his cabinet. and actually brought back the blackorders authorizing a regiment from the secretary of beaufort. host: how many blacks in both in he union and confederacy were actually fighting during the civil war? guest: i believe there were 180,000. at this point they had not been allowed. navy had always allowed blacks to enlist. the army had not. host: in the north only? guest: yes. yes. now, that's something i've i certainly there is some debate on whether there were blacks fighting for the but in general, it was mostly northern blacks. and so, yeah. smalls, by bringing this uthorization, you know, it started an enormous swell of frederick sting, douglas was out there encouraging people to enlist. enlisted.s who it was critical. the royal that african-americans nded up playing in the war was critical to the union. host: what tripped it for the blacks to come into the service? guest: i think it was part necessity. enough people e out there, you know, people kirk to a long time for this happen. but the union also started an ng that the south had advantage because they had slave labor, and so when the war first slaves were had building fortifications. they were doing lots of work. the south an ng advantage, and, and one of the things that smalls did through heroic act was he convinced a lot of people in the north that african-americans were their to fight for freedom. it's hard to imagine, but at that point, a lot of people whether they would. and that's one of the major smalls is that he became this focal point for people to see that african-americans were willing o do whatever for their freedom, to take any chance, and they would fight for the union. a i think it was -- it was combination of a lot of things but i think certainly smalls' ine was definitely important changing that. host: so when you began to esearch for this book, where did you go? guest: national archives. great resource. for years fought for his pension, because he was not enlisted, of course -- he was not enlisted because he would not have been allowed to be a at the time but he certainly served as a member of union, and should have been given a pension for that. for years.t so his pension records were very helpful at the archives. course, going to charleston and beaufort, going to some of their archives, state archives in columbia. talking to loot of experts. you know, it's always good to cast a wide net and see what you can find. there is a man named michael moore who is the great, grandson of robert smalls, and here he is doing a tet talk in 2015. >> this is a picture of his money.ith the one of the main things he did with his award money is he house that ght the his master had, so he bought the house, and so i always, former great poetry in big going and buying the house, but what also was particular lib special after the former master had died. master's wife who at the time was mentally and physically ill, came back to the house thinking that it was still her house and that she was the woman of w, the house, and robert embraced her and brought her in and cared remaining ough her days. he even allowed her to sort of master bedroom where she had always lived thinking of she was still the woman the house. host: do you have any idea why mrs. smalls did that for mcgee? uest: robert smalls was an incredibly forgiving man and he wouldbrilliant man and he always surprise people and so, you know, this is one of these know, michael you and his mother, helen, have been my ncredibly supportive of project with this book, but it's interesting, when you hear stories from the family and then try to verify, of course, whenever you possibly can. this is a story i had heard smalls, imes about bringing the family to his home. could t documentation i find for it was one of the missionnaries who had come from missionaries who came to the north to help the former slaves in port royal wrote about she said robert had in paid for the family's charleston and allowed them to stay in the home. the story you will hear on the arriage rides is she lived there for the rest of her life. my understanding from laura's iary was for a short amount of time the family came. it's still extraordinary that robert smalls would allow the amily to come back to the home where he had once been enslaved. he helped pay for -- he paid for their trip to the house. and he ended up, when the family him, he to eat with ended up serving them separately their own table. he was just a remarkable man. i don't know too many people who that. have done now, some people say, well, was member?gee family robert's father is not known. not d to think smalls was mcgee's child only because, lid was raising her, henry mcgee for so long. smuls ardless of that, was an incredibly warm, caring person, who wanted to help not let what did he had been through during the war stop him from helping the mcgee family. he ended up helping one of the sons get into college and, he did only extraordinary things. >> the michael moore runs the international african-american charleston. what is it like? guest: well, it's being built now. so they are raising funds for it but it sound phenomenal and he's the perfect person to lead it. i recently met whim and asked is it like to -- met him and asked him what it was like to walk through the streets of charleston knowing your great enslaved in the city. it's surreal but it's an honor to keel smalls' memory alive. michael and his mother have done a great job of preserving legacy. his mother created a traveling exhibit. they are very concerned with name and smalls reputation and getting his story out there. host: the charity, university of history department, back was marvin delaney. here he is talking about another period right after the civil war you want you to expound on this. consensus in the the early 20th century, almost p to the 1960s, was that reconstruction was one of the worst periods in the history of this the country. reconstruction was haracterized by corrupt scaliwags and and negros. hey had made three very important contributions. they had brought about the first democratic government in the south. they had established the first free public schools. passed new social legislation. and as many of you know, robert all three of those things. host: what was reconstruction did it last? guest: a lot of people don't realize that reconstruction sort began with the port royal experiment which was the efforts abandoned se 10,000 slaves in port royal and the eaufort area because reconstruction was the country trying to rebuild itself after the war. and having to incorporate slaves world as free le people, i mean, these were people who were kept from any education, they has had never been allowed to care for themselves and suddenly they that ree and what does mean? so beaufort is really in many of the heart reconstruction, because this is where the port royal experiment happened. course, after the war, robert moved back to up fort, and really ended finding a voice in politics, and it was at a time when a lot of blacks were being voted into -- hecal power and he was took advantage of that, and ended up doing a lot. actually helped set up the compulsory education system in south carolina. so it was a time of rebuilding. a time where we were trying to figure out how we were going to move forward after the slavery, which of course, wore still trying to do today. host: did he ever get any education? yes.t: education was huge for robert smalls. o during the war, he went to philadelphia for several months while the planter was being refurbished. with going up there and seeing, watching over the refurbishment, and during of time he took advantage the extra time he had and hired a tutor. then it's thought throughout his he actually worked with other tutors, so he was doing and est to educate himself then as his children grew up he sent them to the best schools that he possibly could. in fact, when his daughter, elizabeth, who was on-board the when r when he escaped, she was 13 years old, she read the declaration of independence of july celebration in beaufort. nd to the audience, it was mostly former slaves and it was because they saw this was an opportunity, their children were now going to learn to read and write. their children were going to bed indicated. they had futures they never could have imagined before. was critical to robert smalls' life. five you said that he was terms in the u.s. house of representatives. atbe of the republican party the time. what's the bribery story? elected ll, smalls was in 1875 to his first term in the representatives. two years later he was accused while in a state legislative role. t was, i think it was a time, it was a time when people were scared, scared of blacks having more power. on and i a lot going think this was the -- the attempt to ruin his credibility. he was eventually pardoned, but t was not before he was sentenced to three years hard labor and his conviction was felon's based on a testimony. host: did he serve the hard labor for three years? > no, he served three days in jail, but was pardoned, in part south carolina governor created a deal that robert smalls wanted no part of. wanted the court case to go to the supreme court here he could have his say and prove his name, prove his innocence. but was never given that deal wasty because the made in order to, i think, free some -- i think it was some redshirts, which were the name racist e very white fanatics in the south at the time. time, there were a number of blacks elected as epublicans from the south in reconstruction. when did that all end? reconstruction fall apart? guest: that's a very good question. not my area of expertise. that we saw the height of the power in the 1870's, 1880s, and then after it started changing. one of the things that i found research is i my did not understand the length that the southern states had reinstate slavery in all but name after the war. a lot of violence going on. malls certainly faced numerous death threats throughout his political career. he had a unique position in the because his was, mother had grown up on a gullo, the and spoke local language of all the slaves from west africa had to have a that they all understood, and this game gulla, of the talk with a lot former slaves in south carolina, and he could talk to the whites were trying to regain their power, so he acted often as a white and een the black communities. but it was -- it was a tough saw, you know, with the jim crow laws and everything else, we had a lot of backsliding. ost: stephen weiss, curator at paris island museum, someone i know you interviewed for your book and also he's written about it but here he is talking about robert smalls. individuals that are associated with the sea islands around port royal, robert obviously, a native, another individual who comes center to at penn plan his strategy in the 1960s, both are very articulate. well known for their speeches. if nothing else, at least a lot speeches are ls' written down and are wonderful things. he has wonderful sense of humor, in the 1895 convention, and he makes comments tillman.itchfork, ben braved. smalls never went around armed after the civil war. there were threats against him. he once commented, when you have faced down a can morning these little pistols mean nothing to you. were passists. he and larry roland wrote a three volume history of beaufort. which is fascinating and has everything you could ever want to necessity about the area in steve was a great larry read the manuscript, gave insights, feedback, pointed me to the right people to talk to. incredibly helpful throughout the whole process. ost: whatever happened to the planter? the ship? guest: unfortunately in the ended up sinking long after smalls had said goodbye to her. steamers war, when weren't needed adds much, the union actually put her up for auction. and interestingly enough, ferguson, who was the original planter back.the he was determined to have it. i think it was symbolic to him in some way. host: and he was a southerner. guest: he was signer, and he, he ried to get it back the first time the boat went up for auction, but the government igured out who he was and that he had leased the ship to the confederates and they turned him down. he actually that had someone else broker the deal for him when the ship went up a few tion in baltimore months later. had the 56, ferguson ship back. then about 10 years later, the ship was trying till another ship and she sank. parts of the planter were obviously t she was no longer in operation. and smalls was said to have said, when he learned that it was like losing a member of his family. host: speaking of family, what to his wife, han, in a how long did she live and she was 13 years older than he? guest: unfortunately, hannah died fairly young. and they had, of course, two lived.n that hey had a third, a young son who died during the war. several years later smalls married another woman, a school from charleston, annie wig, and he had a son with her as well. wives.had two i think hannah often is overlooked as the hero in this story. a ortunately, we don't have lot of records on hannah. could only find one newspaper source that actually recorded anything from hannah, and she about how they agreed, they agreed, if they attacked, when they were escaping, that they would all hold hands and jump overboard be drown rather than recaptured and taken back to slavery. host: you say mr. smalls died when he was 75. of his life rest like after being in the united tates congress, and what was the impact of the bribery accusation? guest: yeah. i don't think he ever fully from that accusation. re-elected, eing but it was never quite the same. customs up becoming a collector in beaufort and spent many years doing that. but i think he really wanted to back in d.c. making change, making people's lives better. that was not ely, the case. but he had a nice life. he, of course, as we saw from earlier, he ended up being able to buy the home this he had once been enslaved in and that was so important to him and one of my favorite quotes of his is something about how he was so happy to be able to give that, leave that house for his children and his family. he die of?did guest: complications from diabetes. host: where is he buried? he's buried in beaufort at the tabernacle church which he was a member of in the last life.of his they have a nice statue there and he's buried beside his two wise and one of his daughters. in your opinion, has the united states paid enough honor did?m for what he guest: i don't think so. i think there is a recognition happen about g to his contributions, in charleston. there are two markers now, markers, in downtown harleston that talk about the planter and marks robert small's contributions, but i think with this renewed interest in reconstruction, you know, there are several places in beaufort, that are part of the monument now. here is more of, i think charleston in general and the whole country is embracing more african-american history and in robert at, i think smalls will get the recognition that he deserves. book is be of the amazing story e of robert smalls, escape from hero and our on guest, cate lineberry. thank you for joining us. guest: thank you so much. announcer: chinese president xi [captions copyright national cable satellite corp 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> here are some other like.ams you might talking about the black history of the white house. history professor on the life career of abraham lincoln. ronald white biography.is you can watch these at any time or search our entire video at c-span.org. c-span's washington journal live every day with news an policy you.s that impact coming up monday morning, see more of the heritage foundation heidi of the economic policy institute discuss the u.s. economy. and government accountability office, managing director charles johnson talks about the of combating isis. be sure to watch c-span's 7:00 gton journal live at a.m. eastern monday morning. discussion. >> next -- chinese president xijinping spoke at a career money in beijing. p.m., another chance to see author cate lineberry. the british parliament is in recess until september so the will minister's questions not be seen tonight. jinping resident xi delivered a speech at a ceremony in beijing. is one-hour program china global television network. comrades, i declare the opening of the celebration of anniversary of the people's f the liberation army.

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