Informed, untutored and unread and he flaunted it. Little had changed in his 2002 state of the union and the phrase access of evil reeked of arrogance. Once again bush has spoken without weighing the consequences. I think thats right. I think someone has the right to say that. When did you start to feel this way about him . Oh, when he was president. Why . Well, because it seemed to me that there was absolutely no reason to go into iraq. And his domestic or his response lets put it this way. His response to 9 11 seemed totally overdrawn. Where were you during 9 11, when it happened . We were in huntington, West Virginia. Do you remember the day . No i remember my wife seeing it on television and i cant it was a sunny day. I cant remember i was down at the university of marshall. When did you begin to react negatively to the way he handled 9 11 . Oh, i think when the i would say beginning with the treatment of prisoners guantanamo, which seemed totally out of the ordinary. And, of course, the domestic spying that took place. But, of course, those werent really very well known until articles came out in the New York Times and the Washington Post about two years later. His george w. Bush when he was not in office in 1991 an interview that was done in texas. Unfortunately theres a bunch of these, i would call them minor leaguers who view themselves as Major League Writers who attack george bush in a personal way. Do those kind of things hurt . Not any more. I cant tell you if hes been personal or not. The thought of being called lap dog by a person of his stature, im not sure large stature or small stature, it bothers you particularly if youre a feisty texan i am. Whats your reaction of that . Thats george bush in 1991. He ran for governor in 1994. He was head of the Texas Rangers at that time. Thats george bush. What do you see there . Spontaneity and really a lack of sustained judgment. A lack of intellectual insect. Have you ever met him . No. Dick cheney, whom i interviewed a number of times for the book, set up an interview with me with george bush. Just before i was to go out i got a telephone call from one of his aides said the president doesnt want to see you decided not to see you because you wrote a book critical of his father, which is true. In 1992 i published a book which was critical of George Herbert walkers decision to attack iraq at the time. The curious thing in some ways is that 1997 the university decided to give George Herbert walker bush an honorary degree. The president said jean youre going to introduce him because you wrote a book about him. I said, well, the book is critical. I introduced him. We had about 1500 numb,500 people protesting. The dot was giving him an award for ending the cold war. Demonstrators outside 1,500 to 2,000 1,000 to 1,500 was protesting being the head of the cia. Are you a canadian citizen . Im both. I was born in the United States. Im an american citizen. But i went to toronto in the 1960s and 1970s, the Supreme Court, in a decision, made it possible to own dual citizenship so at that point i became a can canadian citizen as well. Where do you vote . In mississippi. Why . Thats where my parents are from. We own property in mississippi. I have always voted in mississippi. Go back to your book on George Herbert walker bush. Why were you critical of his activities back in the first iraq war . Bear in mind when bush went to congress and asked for permission to attack iraq, after hussein moved into kuwait, this was a close vote. Bush only won by about ten votes in the house of representatives. Maybe even less in the senate. So this was not a popular thing at the time. The comment by george w. Bush about george will. George will has called you one of the finest biographers we have in the country. I dont think george is gonna like this book. Why not . Well, i think george is a republican. He just dropped out. I saw that. I dont know. Maybe he will. How would you describe your own politics . Democrat. Im from mississippi. At a time when people in mississippi voted democratic. How would you define your ideology or where you are on the spectrum . Oh, on the left, on the left. Always been there . Yes, i think. I went to princeton as an under graduate in 50 to 54. Paul spellings is classmate of mine. Don rumsfeld is, too. Hes a princeton graduate. Yes. The best i could find i read in the back where you say where you got your material in the notes is that you had three four, five interviews, two of them seemed to be the most important were dont rumsfeld and dick cheney. Given what you said about Herbert Walker bush, why would dick cheney see you . How did you work that up . Don rumsfeld set it up for me. Why would he set it up for you . We were classmates. We lived in the same dorm freshman year. Weve known each other since 1950. At what school . Princeton. And we lived in the same dormitory and don is a very popular member of the class of 1954. How often did you talk to him for the book . Maybe 20 times. What did you learn from him that you didnt know from i have seen a lot of sources in your book and other books that have been written about george bush. Yes. I felt that he was always frank and very honest. I mean weve known each other for a very long time. So there was no problem interviewing don. I know his wife. He knows my wife. Were friendly. What do you think his role was in the whole iraq war . And did you tell him what you thought about him . Oh yes. Oh yes. I believe that he thought owe and the military thought they were going in as liberators. They were going to get rid of hussein and leave within 90 day. Thats what they planned for. They didnt plan to occupy iraq. Franks journal, franks plan for that fell on rumsfelds instructions. The military and the state department believed they were going in to remove hussein, find weapons of pass destruction and get out very quickly. Jay garner the general in charge of dealing with the iraqis, had a Council Ready to take charge. And then on may 1st when bush spoke on the flight deck of the Abraham Lincoln and said mission accomplished, bush changed the ground rules. Bush said we are going to stay, occupy iraq and bring in democracy. They hadnt planned for that. They hadnt planned for that at all. They were taken totally by surprise when bush, on may 1st, on the flight deck of the Abraham Lincoln said were going to bring democracy to iraq. The difference between liberators, which they thought they were going to be, and being occupiers, was profound. Liberators make a country free. Occupiers impose their will. And the military had a plan for that. Military planned to go, get out. So suddenly theyre caught as being occupiers and they simply were not prepared for it. Here george bush at west point june 1st, 2002 before the war started in march of it was his address at west point. For much of the in some cases those strategies still apply. But new threats also require new thinking. The war on terror will not be won on the defensive. We must take the battle to the enemy, disrupt its plans and confront the worst threats before they emerge. Bush did announce that at west point. On his own. The military were not prepared for that. He was absolutely wrong. I dont know whales you can say. At one point in your book you bring up gog and mcgog. Why . And who were they . Or what is it . Maybe bushs worst fault is the fact that he is a born again christian who brings about ideology into the presidency. He believes that he was tkpwrods agent here on earth to fight evil and aou mention gog and mcgog. Just before the iraqi invasion, bush called president chiroc of france trying to get france to join in the attack. During the course of that conversation, he told chiroc were fighting gog and mcgog before the final judgment. Gog and mcgog are creatures in the book of revelation in the new testament. Thats the center of the universe for many fundamentalist christians. And bush generally believed that. Bush generally believed that he was gods agent here on earth to fight evil. If you believe that, whether its the domestic excesses or the war against iraq, if you believe you are gods agent fighting evil, all holes are removed. Youre on a blank slate. And you can do whatever is necessary to fight evil. I might say chicor didnt know what he was talking about. His staff didnt know either. They finally got a professor to clue him in to what it was. That convinced chiroc all the more that he didnt want part of this. You got that from the book 500 days secrets and lies terror wars. Thats right. You use a lot of his quotes from his book. I dont know a lot, but some. Noticeable. But there are others you did, too. How do you decide as a historian what to quote, what to trust, what book to trust . Oh, i dont know. It seems to me that as i read it, if it seems reasonable and logical, i you it. Theres a litmus test. . Preparation for buying this particular biography, how much reading did you do before you started writing . Thats an interesting question. Writers write in different ways. I research each chap tore as i go. I do not research the entire book before i begin. Some writers do. But i research it chapter by chapter. And go from there. When im writing a book i do it seven days a week. I get up at 5 00 a. M. And work until noon. I do it seven days a week. But i do it chapter by chapter. Karo, on the other hand, researchs for two, three years before he starts to write. I would say he and i are extremes, one side and the other. I have always found it helpful to do it that way. Youve written a lot of biographies. Im going down the list and ask you to compare what you found out about these people and compare it with george w. Bush. Well start with the president s. In 2001 you wrote grant. Thats right. One of the ways that youre defined in one of the reviews i read on that is that gory lee under rated president. Is that how you feel about it . I think thats true. Grant was not gonna read it at the time. When grant died, 1. 5 Million People went to his funeral in new york. Grant was very popular at the time. But grant, as president genuinely believed in racial equality. And he kept the United States army in the south throughout his presidency to maintain equal rights for africanamericans. For the next three generations that was not popular in the south. Southern historians for the next three generations treasured grant because of his determination to enforce racial equality. And so grants reputation suffered enormously. Improperly it seemed to me. So i spent the time trying to rehabilitate him. Is there any comparison you can make between us grant and george w. Bush . I dont think theres any similarity. Grant was always very reflective. Grant spent his time at west point, most of it in the Library Reading books. And then as you know, his own autobiography sets the standard pretty much for president ial biographies, autobiographies. I think you could say that the distinction is probably light years apart. Polar opposites. Grant did not act on impulse, never. Your book was 784 pages long. This is a big book. All of your books have been pretty big. Whats your approach to this and why in this day and age when people are not reading as much did a publisher want a big book . Youll have to ask the publisher. But it seems to me if youre writing a biography you have to write a big book. I think thats why i say i dont research the entire book before i begin. I do it chapter by chapter. Because if youre writing a book thats 700, 800 pages, you cant remember all that. The next one is your book on fdr in 2007. Yes. That was 880 pages. One of the reviewers said change the relationship between the American People and their government. Yes, he did, in the sense that beginning with the new deal roosevelt caused people to look to washington for support. Which they hadnt done previously. And the government became a big supporter of the economy and of people. And i think in that sense roosevelt did change the approach. You say that george bush was the decider just like he used to say. What do you think of that . And was fdr a decider . And is there any comparison between those two . Fdr occasionally when he did that, he usually made a mistake. The Supreme Court plan in 1937 to expand the size of the Supreme Court with some of his own. He consulted no one on that and his attempt to increase the size of the court from 9 to 15 justices caught everyone by surprise. It was a terrible mistake. So when president roosevelt acted that way, they werent sure it was fake. I would say the only other example i can think of when roosevelt acted on his own was when he overruled Jerome Marshall and secretary simpson in 1942 and ordered the invasion of north africa. They didnt want to do that. He ordered the invasion of north america. Those are the only two examples i can think of. With grant and fdr, where did religion play out with them compared to george w. Bush . Most people dont realize it but Dwight Eisenhower is the only president elected who did not belong to a church. Eisenhower was a cadet at west point, graduated in the class of 15. West point cadets at the time were required to go to chapel every sunday. So when eisenhower graduated he decided he wasnt going back. Someone once asked him in the 1930s when mcarthur was chief of staff and eisenhower was his assistant why he didnt go to church. Eisenhower said, because i had to go every sunday at west point and im not going back. And he didnt go back. He finally joined the presbyterian church, but not until after he was elected president. So i think that thats a fundamental distinction. Grant was not a true believer either. Roosevelt was an elder in his church at hyde park. But i think all he was quite skeptical. And your book on George Herbert walker bush, where do you think religion played a part with him . I dont think it did. I mean, the book on George Herbert walker bush is about the iraq war. So its a narrow book. Its a come hundred pages. I dont think it did. George w. Bush, bush 43, is a born again christian. He got to that position in the 1980s. And you talk about billy graham in here and his relationship to george w. Bush. But you all give credit to anothered minister. Yes. I think it was the other minister, the person who carried the cross around the world, so called, the year before, who really brought bush back, who made bush a born again christian. Bush in both of his autobiographies, george w. Bush, credits billy graham but i think thats because billy graham is known and the other fellow is not. In 2011 george bush talked about being sustained by his faith. Lets just watch a little bit of this. I was sustained by my faith during my presidency. And i did pray a lot. And i saw gods wonders in many occasion when i was president. I tell the story about the rainbow. I gave a speech, right before i got on the stage, someone pointed out this balcony that was lit. It was the place where the tyrant had given his last speech. This rain storm, a rainbow appears. Entered right behind the balcony. People can describe anything they want. I described it as a message that said freedom is beautiful and universal and everybody desires to live a free life. What are you thinking as you listen to that . I thought thats exactly right. I thought that bush received his marching instructions, he thought, from god. What if hes right . I dont think he was. Do you . My question is how do we know . The excesses domestically and the attack on iraq, i dont think it can be argued that they were correct. I want to complete the comparisons with eisenhower. That was a 976page book. That was in 2012. You said a canny politician and skilled decisive leader. How do you compare what eisenhower was to what george w. Bush is . I think of eisenhower as a president making two mistakes. And one of them was when he gave the cia permission to talk to the shaw in iran. The other was when he authorized the flight just before the paris summit in 1960. Otherwise eisenhower, one of eisenhowers great strengths was his ability to conceal his hand. Eisenhower was behind the move that ultimately defeated mcar think. Eisenhower. It was eisenhower who picked joseph welsh to be the council there. Eisenhower liked to conceal what he was doing. But i think he was incredibly efficient. Interstate highway system, the st. Lawrence freeway, ending the war in korea. Eisenhower had been elected on a platform. You thought he was going to win the war in rae. He immediately made peace. I think, i think two mistakes i think eisenhower made. He had an effectively good track record. All the books youve done so far, which of these individuals did you personally like the most . I liked grant the most. Why . Because i felt that grant had been totally underrated. Had been systematically abused by some of the historians for three generations who resented grants position on racial equality. And i might say that when i was a little boy of eight or nine years old, my father was from mississippi, as i said earlier, took us to the battlefield in shilo. My cousins over there with us were saying well the south could have done this or done that. An my father said we should hush up because its a good thing grant was in command that day because grant had saved the union. So i think from the time that i was 8 years old, i was on grants side. The reviews that have come out have been pretty popular. Peter vicar, you used peter vicars book in yours. He said in his july 4 review, as a biographer mr. Smith makes to comparisons with todays republican lead pweur cites unmistakably with those who see mr. Bushs presidency in the darkest shades. If often for radically different reasons. Mr. Smith abhors waterboarding terror suspects, for example. Mr. Trump wants it resumed. What did you think of his analysis of your book . Well, i was certainly very flattered that peter baker wrote such a favorable review. Because baker this is major work on the Bush Administration. Its not a biography. Its a book on the administration. Its extremely good. The headline on the reviews president ial biography as scathing indictment. Fair . Yes. Yes, thats fair. And i think bush deserves a scathing indictment. Do you feel as strong about george w. Bush as you have any of the president s that youve known, youve written about, youve thought about . Its different for a biographer to write about someone whom you dont