Wimps andfor wallflowers. People that are going to get run over. In order to be successful, conventional wisdom says you have to be assertive, bold, even putting yourself out there, selfpromoting. I think humility countermand that. It councils a different disposition and attitude. Define it. Utility is an honest examination of oneself. Imperfect,it you are your imperfections, and think about how one might put others first in thought, word and deed. It is the opposite of self aggrandizement. What if you examine yourself and conclude you are terrific . Muhamed ali said it is hard to be humble when you are his rate as i am. As great as i am. I think there is a lot of that kind of mentality. It cant be a real self examination. If anybody is honest with themselves, they know they make mistakes. They are imperfect. The tendency is to gloss over those things, to think that one , that ones by mistakes dont have to be admitted. That you dont have to change your ways. I think the really honest person will admit also that they are not their own creator. That everything about their own lives is not of their own making. In politics, i want to show you some video of senator Jeff Sessions on the floor of the senate. It will be fairly obvious why i played this. When i first came to washington considering running at ahe senate, i met republican munchen and happened to say a thing or two. I said i could think of no greater honor than to represent the people of alabama in the greatest deliberative body in the history of the world. This is a great liberator body. That is our heritage and it is being eroded. It is not disputable that it is being eroded. The greatest deliberative body in the history of the world. What are you hearing there . I just finished a course for Hillsdale College in politics on the liberation. That has often been made. The question is, what does deliberation constitute . I think it requires that willingness to really listen. Even to compromise. That kind of thing is not seen as much today. In democracy, our elected officials have a very difficult the lemma. They have to put themselves out there as the best, the one that is worthy of winning an election. Worthy of choosing, making decisions on behalf of other people. It is an immense responsibility. I think that the senator is repeating something that has often been repeated but i know that he and many have is many of his colleagues would lament what has been happening with the filibuster and say the possibility of deliberation is much more limited. The greatest part there out of that use of the word greatest is interesting. The senator is saying something that typifies the challenge that americans have had. Regiment franklin early on rustled with the temptation of pride. I think he mirrored early america. In his own life, he saw that he would be quick to cut people off. He cut short elaboration. He would want to win the argument and not necessarily when the person over. He saw that with the help of a buddy, a friend who said ben, you are kind of arrogant. Franklin recognized that he needed to become less prone to cut people off, more ready to really engage. To have that meeting of two people and more that constitutes deliberation. Franklin for the course of his career, set himself on the path and in part helped america be on the path, in which we could be more humble. Thaten also recognized there was a challenge in this. If you want to be humble and you strive to be humble, as soon as you think you are humble you are probably going to be proud of that fact. That was franklins dilemma. What got you interested in writing a book that is named humility . The political use of humility has been of interest to me for some time. ,hen you look to elections after an election, the victory, you find the winner say, i am humbled by the results of the peoples vote today. Then there is nothing thereafter that is humble. Humility haseen been a thing that we have pay a lot of lip service to but there has not been a lot of reflection. When you look to the founding generation, it reflected a lot on the virtues that were going to be vital for republican self government. Digging into the topic more, it occurred to me that there were a lot of different mirrors. The most famous is machiavelli. He doesnt pay any heed to humility. Is, you dont need virtue so much as the willingness to do whatever it takes. Go back 1000 years before that to augustin. He puts in his mirror for princes, humility. Front and center. You have to be humble to be a good leader. You write about a lot of people from years ago and augustin is one of those. Electric mindn for language, augustin became what he described as a salesman of words in the market of rhetoric. Explain who augustin is and why did you want to use him in the book . Augustin was a fascinating figure. An early church father. He came to christianity through a hard won journey. One of the point i make in the book is that pride comes to people naturally. Humility does not. Nobody is born naturally humble. Augustins confessions which is a book that resonates very much journeypeaks of his through what he called the school of pride. A brilliant wordsmith. He was a speechwriter for the top people of his age. Somebody that didnt have fortime early in his life things of faith. He had a very dramatic conversion. It was a moral conversion, a spiritual conversion. He realized that the only way he was going to live with true success in life was to live for god. He changed everything about his life. Glory, forquest for fame, for honor, he took it in a different direction. He was called to the ministry. He came to become a bishop in north africa, what is now algeria. Living at a time when the Roman Republic had degenerated into an empire. He saw this empire further crumbling because the invading barbarians had really sacked rome. The blame was cast on christianity. By this point, augustin was a christian. He resented that. He said, it is not fair. You are blaming christianity for this thing that has happened. The charge was that christianity has made, through its emphasis on another god among another king, has taken away peoples attention from this world. It has made men week. Augustin wrote a big book, his biggest of all called the city of god to counteract that. His introduction is really introducing. Interesting. He says, i am writing this book to convince the prideful, the arrogant of the power and excellence of humility. That is such an interesting task, to write a whole book and your audience are the people youre trying they are charging christianity, your religion with the downfall of rome. Did you read that 1000 pages . I did. I wrote a doctoral dissertation at Boston College and worked my way through the city of god. 1000 pages written how many years ago . This was written in the fifth century, after christ. It has what seem like a lot of different than russians different digressions. His main argument is to say there are two kingdoms, the city of god which you might think of the city as the humble and the city of man which is the world we live in. He is trying to reconcile, how memberse as christians of the city of god and yet live in this world . It is the classic tension that people of faith feel throughout the world. In your book, you talk about you have chapters on James Madison and Abigail Adams and Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass and on George Washington. Why . Why those five people . I think each of them represents a different aspect of humility. As importantly, a different aspect of healthy pride. Humility is not self abasement. It is not thinking less of oneself. It is also not think into much of oneself. For each of these figures, i think we have had the tendency think of their struggle take George Washington for example as one that probably wasnt as hard as maybe others. This is a guy that had enormous ambition. He had to struggle to tame that ambition. He had to struggle to tame his pride. Abigail adams, James Madison, each had a different set of circumstances. Abraham lincoln and Frederick Douglass too. The friendship they forged. By talking about our early period, the american founding and the critical junction in our nations history, the civil war, i wanted to bring out different aspects of the combination of humility and greatness of soul. You said something about George Washington, that he would be worth 500 million in todays dollars. That was an estimate that a couple of economists came up. He was an immensely wealthy man. He strove for that. He was not born into all of that wealth. He came into it through inheritance and marriage. He wanted that. He was a man on the make as a young guy. Great that iwas so think he really strove for greatness. Kind of thing, when you want to be famous, when you want to have notoriety, the question is are you doing it for the right reasons . Is it truly going to succeed . I think washington recognized that he had to think larger, broader than his own ego. To think about the common good. Bute chastened his pride was no less ambitious, he could be ambitious for the right things. Assume more power and not let that power go to his head. That is the remarkable example that washington gives us. Video fromo run some 2005, the late howard zed, a professor who wrote the peoples history of the United States. Here is what he said about some of the founders. We dont mean that the united unique. S simply all countries are unique. Its exceptionalism suggests more than that. It suggests superiority. That allts something of us living in the United States have encountered a lot, and that is selfcongratulation. Fond in the United States of congratulating ourselves for how wonderful we are. We are thebest, greatest, we are the strongest, we are the most prosperous. What you think of him . A historian. N was he died a few years ago. He wrote a book that since its writing more than a quarter century ago, is enjoyed every year. It sold a couple million volumes. Two words, guns and greed. You can see in that clip that he is not very fond of our founding come in a very fond of any period in American History. He thinks that we have been dedicated to a lot of the wrong things. He goes through in his narrative and challenges the prevailing one. He sees himself as responding to the traditional view of america as exceptional. I think a little different approach i have been critical of howard zinn because i think he paints with too broad a brush. American exceptionalism can sometimes be that version he describes. That is problematic. It is also problematic to not recognize, to deny that there have been great accomplishments in American History. Properly understood, i think american exceptionalism. Ecognizes that we were born we were created with the commitment to equality and liberty. More than any other country on earth, we have sought to secure that for our citizens and the citizens of the rest of the world. Is the cause of all nations. That kind of universalism that you see in George Washingtons life, in James Madisons work, n abaco Abigail Adams striving was characterized not by that chest thumping, but rather a striving to be great. You would have to earn that. The way to earn that would to be construct an edifice that could truly stand the storm. , about a monthon into the constitutional conventions when things were looking really difficult, wrote a letter. He said, we can lay the foundation, we the assembled people in philadelphia writing the constitution. Raise theople have to edifice. Remarkablecertain exceptionalism in that promise. It is not going to be the work of one indispensable founder. It is not going to be the work of a small band of people who enrich themselves. I dont see the evidence of that. Rather it is the work of the people as a whole carry on from generation to generation. Go back to howard zinn in the book he was here a number of years ago. Why has that book you said it only printed 4000 copies in the beginning and sold 2. 2 million since then area why is it so popular among academics . It is not as popular among academics. Many of them even on the left are distancing themselves from the book. Zinn was a social historian. It has been very popular with secondary schools. I think its popularity owes to its Widespread Adoption by teachers and readership in general. It tells a good tale. It is a narrative, a story. It is a story that i find fault with and disagree with but too many of our history textbooks written by committee are boring. They bore our kids to tears. That has been a real problem. We have to recognize that American History is full of amazing tales. Of devices as well. It is a story we have to relate all of. Zinn focuses on the warts. I dont think that is the best way to write history. Who wrote a book in your opinion about American History that is not on the left but maybe on the right that you think is good . I think that larry on a patriotsook history of the United States does a good job. Bill bennett has a twovolume history of the United States. It is tough to find textbooks by major publishers they are often written by committee but those two books in general, they are of the right. You said you got a phd at Boston College and howard zinn was a Boston University at the same time. Where did it start for you . Where were you born . In fairfax, virginia and moved to minnesota when i was three years old. I grew up in the midwest in the twin cities area. I very much consider myself a midwesterner at heart. Your parents . My father is a cpa, retired now. My mother, a dietitian was mainly at home with her children. What impact how many kids were in the family . Two of us. I have a younger brother. What impact did your parents have on the way you think today . Very much. Butvision was not allowed sparingly. Dinnertable conversations were about the days headlines, what was happening in the world. A challenge to engage that way and become interested in things religioncs and civics, and the intersection of those things. Sometimes we hear that the things we ought not to talk about our religion and politics. Those are the main things we talked about. How religious were your parents . Very much so. Religion has been very much a and mine asr lives well. How did you get to Hillsdale College . I visited a lot of different places. What drew me to hillsdale was the fact that it is a small liberal arts college, it is dedicated to having full professors teaching the students , it has been fiercely independent. It was started in 1844 by abolitionists. They had a remarkable commitment to equality. They wrote one of the first charters, best as we can tell, in the world that said there can be no discrimination on the basis of sex or race. Even though they were free will baptists at the time, the school has disassociated from that, they did not discriminate on the basis of religion. You have a school in 1844 accepting everybody regardless of race or sex and graduating women and americans of african descent long before most other institutions. Frederick douglass spoke on our campus twice. It was full of this abolitionist fervor. One word you use in your book. Lot is mag amenity what does it mean . Greatness of soul. It is the latin word that captures the idea that aristotle talked about. Aristotle was a greek philosopher. He wrote a book that really laid the wayview of ethics, you should be in order to align your soul with that which is virtuous. Aristotle characterized as one of the twin peaks of virtue, this idea of greatness of soul. Virtuetelling, it is a that you might think of this way you are great and you know you are great. You are not going to stoop, youre not going to bend, but you are not going to lord your superiority over those lesser than yourself. It was a virtue that was seen on the battlefield and also within politics. For aristotle, it was one of those things that really from theshed a person masses. Again, when did you start thinking about writing a book about humility . What was can you go back to the very beginning . I would have to say that in that seminar i mentioned in graduate school, it really struck me that there is a tension between the ancient world, aristotle, and augustin. Magnanimity,of think of it as fixed nature. Some people are better than others even by birth, that is a very problematic thing from the perspective of modernity. For aristotle, that was the way things were. Humility didnt much factor in his view of that greatness of soul. It is hard to imagine a magnanimous man stooping to wash the feet of those who were anything. Yet that is the message that jesus gave in his early ministry. Humility is the thing you need. There is a way in which that inverted everything. It through the whole order on its head. Following a religious and it sparked even a kind of political philosophy. It was that tension that i wanted to explore. In the book chapter on jesus and socrates, for jesus unlike aristotle the only sure remedy was external to oneself. You say there were many in those days the puppet was the impediment of arrogance. That thought that was the enemy of arrogance. Why was it not . Believe that jesus was the christ or not. Is a is god, then that true claim. If not, then it is an arrogant pretension. That is what is at stake. And franklin when he was trying to think through humility, he wrote out a little phrase imitate jesus and socrates. What franklin admired is that while there is that claim, that allimportant claim that jesus made, there was also a moral example and a moral exemplar that jesus made. Whether you are like Thomas Jefferson and ben franklin who did not believe that jesus was the christ, or you are George Washington and many of the other Founding Fathers who seems to affirm that, there was a recognition that there was something really amazing about the moral example that jesus set. , speaking about politicians on any given sunday, you can see jimmy carter in church in georgia talking about the b