>> she was very capable. she did not like that. she called herself a prisoner of state. >> by the same token that every step washington took to find the office, so can it be said that everything martha washington did, likewise. >> it was a businesslike relationship. but not without affection. they had a deep respect for each other. >> she owned most of this whole block, going back a couple of acres. she owned a huge chunk of what williamsburg was. >> there was a lot of tragedy in martha washington's life. she lost her first husband. >> she was raised a rich woman. what that means in the 18th century, that is not necessarily what it means today. >> she brings with her to mount vernon 12 house slaves. that is almost an unimaginable luxury. >> it'd take for 10 days to travel here to valley forge from mount vernon in her carriage with her slaves and servants with her. this was a difficult journey. >> her experience had prepared her to become the first lady. >> martha washington was 57 years old in 1789 when she and george washington left their beloved virginia home in service to the country. this time, their destination was new york city, where they began he or the first of their two terms, setting an important precedent for all their successors in the white house. good evening and welcome to c- span's brand-new series, "first ladies: influence and image." for the next year, we will spend time on personal biographies of each of the women who served in the role in the white house. our first installment, martha washington. for the next 90 minutes, we will try to serve up the essential martha washington with two people who have come to know her well. presidential historian richard norton smith, whose biography of george washington is called "patriach," and patricia brady, who has done a biography of martha washington. why does martha washington matter?he is he and a >> she was the first. she was one of the best. those things always count.we are in an and only she was able to help george washington make it through the american revolution and then two awful terms as president. >> this concept for this series was something you championed early, and you were a guiding light into how c-span might do it. what was your thought about why studying first ladies should matter in this society we are living in today? >> we do not know enough about them as individuals. we do not know as much about them for the window they hold in -- know enough about them for the windows they opened up in their particular periods. individually, they are fascinating. collectively, they provide a way of tracing not only women's history but the history of the country, and any number of political and other institutions, as well. ultimately, i suspect our viewers will be surprised by a lot of the information they hear over the next year. these are surprising stories. >> we went on location to a number of sites important to her biography. we will show you some of the video. as we always do on c-span, this will be interactive and we will take phone calls in a little while and we will tell you how you can be part of that conversation. you can join us immediately on twitter. you can send us a question or comment, #firstladies. and on facebook, we have a question posted for you of anything you would like to talk about about martha's time and her life and we will mix those questions in. we welcome your participation. i want to spend the first 15 minutes on the years in the white house, the two terms there. >> not the white house. >> sorry, the presidential mansion in new york city. 1789, she comes to new york city a few months behind george washington. start by telling us what kind of opinion the american public had of these two people. >> it began with the revolution. at that point, when martha would ride to join her husband as she did every year, people would line up behind every tree, on every fence post to look at her. she said, i felt as though i were a very great somebody. she was somebody for the first time as his wife. the newspapers reported on how important it was for him to have her. they started then -- when they came back as president and his lady, they already had -- the public had an opinion of them. they were singular characters. other politicians were not in the same ballpark at all. >> give people a sense of how hard it was to make the basic decisions about how the new government would function, including this role. >> the decisions about what a republic was, what a president was, were inseparable from many of those we would, perhaps, almost condescendingly today attribute to the east wing of the white house. for instance, would the president and the first lady accept private dinner invitations? would they go to private funerals? what do you call the president? the reason why these questions, which wouldstuestions, seem trivial to us today, matter is because each one of them, in their own way, define the nature of the new government, which was to some degree a spin off from its royal antecedents. the country was split right down the middle between those who feared it was in any way aping george iii. 200 years later, we still have this dichotomy about what a president is. how close do the president and his wife get to us? the fact that mrs. washington every week had a friday-night reception that anyone could walk into as long as they were decently dressed, you would not find that in london. it helped to define not only her role, but in a larger sense, the access the americans were to have with their president. >> that is the only model the washingtons and the rest of the founding government had, the very european monarchies they fought to distance themselves. -- themsevlelves from. where do the washingtons draw their example from? >> they talked it out. people see washington always as a strong, marble leader. he was more than a statue. he liked to talk to his associates. he was criticized as a general because he liked to talk to his staff before making a decision. in government, he thought all the best minds in the country would get together and make the right decision. we were the first modern republic. it is hard for us to understand there was nobody like us. whatever they did mattered. it was important. >> let's take a snapshot of that modern republic. this was from the first census ever done by the new country. the census maker was thomas jefferson. here are some of the facts they gathered about the united states. the 13 states had a population of just under 4 million. 757 of those were blacks. about 19%. only 9% were free. the per capita income, $437. if you look back before the war, it was almost double that. years of war had reduced the per capita income. the largest cities in the country -- new york, philadelphia, and boston. what should we learn about those three large cities? >> two of those 13 states were not yet members of the union. both north carolina and rhode island held back when the rest of the union adopted the constitution. america was overwhelmingly a rural, rustic, agrarian, farm- based society. there were three roads in 1800 that crossed. the united states was a nation in name only. it was 3 state nations. it was new england, the middle states, and the south. each of them had one major city. philadelphia, the largest city in the nation, with all of 40,000 people. one of the things martha washington found not altogether to her liking was the fact she was uprooted from the agricultural, rural life that she knew and had been born into. it is only the latest chapter of her sacrifice which, in its own way, you could argue matches anything her husband sacrificed. >> that is true. she did not want to go to a city. she wanted to be home at mount vernon. but, she had to be there with her husband to do what her husband wanted to do. she gave it up. the thing that made her so very unhappy was to discover washington had consulted with james madison and john adams and they decided that presidents could not have a personal life. any entertainment, any going to visit people, any having people in, was a public act. they could not just go hang out with their friends or ask their friends over. that was for one year. the first year, it was terrible for her. at the same time, it was pretty good for him. jefferson had not come back from paris yet. that was probably his honeymoon with the presidency. >> let me put a quote in here just to get martha's state of mind about the restrictions put upon her."i never go to the public. i . i am like a state prisoner." >> there is a line that goes to the heart of who this woman was and why she was the ideal first first lady. she said, she talked about an-- the experience of her life had taught her our happiness or misery depends upon our disposition and not our circumstances. >> very true. >> that is a remarkably wise observation. it is an observation distilled from a life full of tragedy. she lost a husband. she lost all four of her children. she lost countless nieces, nephews. >> all of her siblings. >> absolutely. she found herself repeatedly uprooted from the life she expected to follow george on the battlefield or a different kind of battlefield. together, with very little precedent, they devised this new government. >> she chose to follow him. this is a mark of their partnership. >> he was so miserable until he could get her to join him wherever he was. i was going to say the quote about the prisoner of state, that was a bad year for her when she still had to follow the rules of the men. when they went home, she worked with her husband so when they went to philadelphia the next year, the rules changed. she was not a prisoner. it was also after a month-long tour of the northern colonies, the northern states, attempting to unite the country. she was depressed and by herself. she was much less happy at that time than any other time. >> when she moved to philadelphia and became happier because the restrictions were lifted, she knew people in the philadelphia society. we will show you a video and get a sense of their life there in the second capital of the united states. >> it is here martha washington carved out the role of what the wife of the president of united states should do. some of the social events martha would have been responsible for overseeing were state dinners held weekly on thursdays, as well as the drawing room receptions martha washington personally organized every friday evening. the state dinners would have been events she would have helped coordinate. these took place thursdays every week. on the second floor, martha held her drawing room receptions. she held her drawing room receptions on friday. those events were a little more informal compared to the times -- to the state dinners down here. george washington was always in attendance. he probably preferred those social engagements friday more than the events he held in this room because they were informal in nature. the events were open to the public. anyone with social standing was welcome to attend. most people remarked george washington was more at ease with martha washington at his side. martha washington lived in a household of over 30 people. this included indentured servants and enslaved people from mount vernon. one of the most well known was a personal maid to martha washington, oney judge. because of the nature of her duties, it is very likely she would have slept right here in the house. in the time martha washington was here in philadelphia, oney judge runs away. she escapes to claim her freedom. this was a major blow to martha washington, who felt very betrayed. she had promised oney judge to her granddaughters once married. >> her life in philadelphia. >> i need to say something there about sappy 19th century images. the 19th century liked the idea of having an almost regal republican court here. there was no place where they stood raised above the other, nor did she stand. she sat on a sofa. guests came and met her there and then walked around the room. the idea that it was somehow so regal is so wrong. it was not. >> it is so frustrating. anyone who has dealt with the primary sources are grateful for what we have but we are constantly hungry for more because we have countless, second-hand reports from events like this. they are unanimous. everyone talks about how she was always cheerful, always interested in her guests. >> her smile, her beautiful teeth. not many people had beautiful teeth then. >> it is important we talk about her interaction with the public, the slaves they brought with them. it is good to talk about their relationship with slaves. >> when they married, they felt the same. they grew up in virginia. a good part of the wealth in virginia was built on the labor of slaves.washington was strict on his slaves. as time went on, his views began to change. he was the only one of the founding fathers who freed his slaves. her opinion did not change. it was a very unfortunate -- i wanted it to be different and i looked for every word i could find. the one slave she actually owned personally, she did not free. she left the slave to her grandson. she felt it was the way society was supposed to be. oney judge had let her down because she had always been kind to her and she did not understand that oney judge wanted to be free and she wanted to learn to read and write and wanted to find christ in her own way. >> it can be said of washington, and later on of lincoln, that he outgrew the racist culture that produced him. one major reason was because during the revolution, after having initially turned thumbs down to the idea of recruiting free blacks, african-americans played a vital role in the winning of the revolution. washington saw firsthand what these people were capable of doing. he saw the courage, the sacrifice, and they were humanized in a way that on the plantation was not possible. life taught him a lesson very different from martha. >> they spent the entire second term in the philadelphia chapter. the torment of the second term. one of the things we often do not learn about was about the trials of things like epidemics. philadelphia's population was more than decimated. 12% died in the early part of that term.what was life like t here? >> yellow fever is one of those diseases one tends to think of as a southern, carribean disease. the east coast of the united states was frequently struck with yellow fever. it was killing people right and left. alexander hamilton had a very bad case but survived. that was part of the torment. but the real torment for washington was to see his friends and the men he respected, instead of all coming together to make a new form of government, were falling apart into two parties. he would never have believed that jefferson and madison and hamilton would become enemies of one another and that they would do everything they could to keep each other out of office instead of working together. >> before we leave this section, because we will begin working back through earlier parts of her life, you mentioned adams. martha washington had a relationship with abigail adams. i was tickled to find out there was almost a sisterhood of revolutionary ladies. can you tell us more about who was in that and how they interacted? >> they had a lot in common. they were wives who were partners, not who were stuck to the side and left out of everything, but they were both deeply committed to the idea of this new republic. they cared about it. >> they were very political in that sense. >> they also helped each other socially. abigail was extremely tickled by the fact that her place was to the right of martha washington on the sofa. if another lady came up and took her place before she arrived, the president himself would ask her to leave so abigail could sit there. she almost had a crush on martha washington. she said she was a wonderful person. she was. >> abigail has left us some delightful accounts, including the friday night receptions. but the one person who escapes her occasionally harsh tongue is martha.she said she did not of auteur."urecture this woman who could have been queen, george washington could have been king, she could have been queen. not the least of their accomplishments is that each refused the crown. >> last question. you paint the portrait that george washington was a robust subscriber to newspapers of the time and read them. martha washington devoured the papers, as well. >> she did and she loved to read. she read a lot. when she did not read the papers herself, washington would frequently spend an evening reading aloud to her and whoever else was there. she was not a person who was out of what was going on in politics. >> that does not mean she liked what she read. >> how did the press treat her? >> she came into some criticism. one of the fissures from a very early day even in new york was a "democratic" with a small "d" kind of jeffersonian element, who were always on the lookout for anything that seemed monarchical. there were those who thought a president's weekly levy on tuesday afternoons and her dinner every thursday and friday night receptions and the fact he rode in a carriage, somehow they lumped all this together and suspected aristocratic if not royalistic. they were always on the lookout for that, not so much directed at the first lady, per say, as -- the first lady per se, as the administration she represented. >> the difference from martha and every other first lady is that these were private comments. others made private, unpleasant comments about her. but it did not appear in the papers. nobody said, she is so uppity or full of herself. wives were off limits. once the adams came in, from then on, wives were fair game. >> i want to give you the phone lines.you can join in this way. do not forget, you can tweet us, #firstladies. or post on facebook. williamsburg, virginia was the place george and martha first met. we will learn a little bit more about martha washington's life in williamsburg next. >> williamsburg is as close to a hometown as martha washington would ever get, connected well before she was born. her great-grandfather was the first director of the parish church from about 1664 to 1688. you cannot get more embedded in the life of this town than that. her grandfather, orlando jones, we have his house reconstructed here. they owned a plantation outside of town. their daughter, frances, married john dandridge, who was an up and coming planter. they moved to new kent county, no more than 30 miles away. that is where martha was born. chestnut grove. her growing up there, williamsburg was then the center of political, social, and cultural life in all of-- not in all of vigirginia, but certainly this part of virginia. her father was engaged in all political and economic activity. this is the place she would have come to more often than any other place. >> this was the area where she was born to. if you were anyone in society, you came to williamsburg. her mother was in williamsburg society. when she came of age where she was being brought into society, she was being brought to the assemblies and balls here. she was at the balls at the royal governor's palace. she was at the assemblies at places like the raleigh tavern. when it was time to be brought out into polite society, williamsburg was the place to be because her mother knew williamsburg was where her daughter needed to be. martha falls in love with her first husband, daniel custis. she knows he is a farmer, a plantation owner, but what she does not know is daniel is the son of john custis, who owned several properties here in williamsburg, all the northern, -- the northern neck, most of the eastern shore, and she falls in love with his son, daniel, thinking it is just a man from new kent. when daniel says to his father, i want to marry martha, john says her family is not fortunate enough to marry into us. he said no. her family was well known. her father was a clerk. martha was well known for her amiable personality. people fell in love with her. they go to john on martha's behalf and say, if you could meet this girl, you will change your mind. i would love to go back in history and find out what the meeting between john and martha was like. whatever she said to this man, he said she was the most amiable young girl and he could not see his son marrying anything better than the young dandridge girl. >> she owned a property, a house, where her first husband and children are buried right outside of town. all of her family, her closest members of family -- she can easily reconnect with them. >> the parish church, in many ways, was martha washington's home church. her great-grandfather was the first minister of the parish church. roland jones. he is buried on the inside. grandparents are both now buried in the church. probably more closely connected to miss martha washington than anybody else, other than george washington, is her first husband and their first two children. this is the final resting place of martha washington's first husband. this stone was ordered from london. although he and both of their first two children, their first son and their first daughter, who lie here, were first interred now outside the plantation outside of williamsonburg, they remained at the church in the early part of the century. this is a tenement. she owned who is hold lot going back a couple of acres, and which means she owned a huge chunk of one williamsburg was. she stayed here on and off for most of her life. williamsburg was the center of her world. she was here when her husband, daniel custis, was a prominent member of this community and she was here very often when george washington was a political leader in the colony. and, of course, in order to be able to protect and promote her own business interests in the area. >> some beautiful scenes of colonial williamsburg. what about her williamsburg years were important when she became first lady? >> you have to realize she was a teenager when she became a fiancee, and he was 20 years older, and he was a bachelor because his dad never let him marry. nobody was good enough. not only did she overcome prejudice on the part of the father, but she helped bring him into a real-life with the children and everyone else, but he was so rich. he was so much richer than most people around. she came from a lower gentry family. they were not so rich. she learned how to manage property and to manage money and to take care of things but -- that would serve her really well for the rest of her life. she was smart as far as money went. >> 25 when she became a widow? >> just one statistic to put this in perspective. mount vernon at its peak was about 8,000 acres. daniel custis, when they were married, and martha was 19 years old,bought 18,000 acres into this marriage, and the video, which was wonderful -- if anything, it understated how thoroughly curmudgeonly daniel's father was. his tombstone holds an inscription he wrote which announces he had never been happy except one living apart -- except when living apart from his wife. they had a tempestuous relationship. whatever it was that this 18, 19-year-old young woman was able to say made an amazing impression. >> about the force of her character. >> and her personality. >> she became wealthy at age 25. a wealthy, wealthy widow. she was quite a catch. what was it about george washington she saw that attracted her? >> it was mostly that he was such a hunk. he was 6'2" at a time when most men were 5'8", 5'9". a wonderful horseman, wonderful athlete, fabulous dancer, very charming. and he really liked women. he loved to talk to women always, his whole life long. he had begun to show the type of leadership he would show more of, but he was the lucky one. she was the catch, rather than he. >> a colonel at the time and distinguished in his military career. >> he would also be a real catch in the sense that -- remember, she had four children by daniel custis, two of whom died young, and two of them survived for now. and, of course, she had all that property. george washington would also fulfill vital roles even as a partner. >> she could trust him because he was clearly a person of such integrity. >> on that note so people get a sense of what life was like for women in early america, women had what kind of property rights? >> as a widow she was in a fine shape, because her husband did not leave any kind of trust tee. she could do what she wanted to. >> is that common? >> fairly common. it was much more common for a male trusty. he just did not get around to writing his will in time. once they got married it meant that they were covered women and all of their financial and any other kind of dealings were carried out by their husbands. >> she had a do you remember portion of the custis estate -- dour portion of the custis estate, which she had an interest in, and that included 35 slaves. >> our twitter community is enjoying your comment of george washington as a hunk. [laughter] >> he was. >> we o see pictures of martha washington, such as the portrait we have on the screen right now. in your biography you have a very different, very attractive martha washington. how accurate is this portrayal? >> very accurate. people criticized it and said, why do you have to show her young? we all start young. you are not born at 65 years old. it was important to show what she looked like as a beautiful young woman, so we took a picture to a fro rensic anthropologyist and they did an age regression to show what she actually looked like at 25. i wanted to say, what did george see when the door was open and he walked into the drawing room? what kind of woman did he set eyes on? it was not the gilbert stuart old lady. it was a beautiful young woman. >> about the children, martha washington had four. she yao lived all of them. by the time she met george there were two living children. what was his attitude toward these children? did he take them on as his own? >> he really did. later on he famously adopted the grandchildren. washington loved children. i think washington was rather sensitive to the fact that he had no children of his own, and that would be a subject of pure speculation, which hasn't prevented historians from speculating. the fact is he treated her children very much as if they were his own. by one estimate, she brought 20,000 pounds to their marriage, and he spent a good deal of that immediately send i away for orders for toys, for wax dolls, for patsy, the daughter, and he spent quality time with them and, of course, lost both of them. it was a shattering experience. patsy, who died of epilepsy, one day at dinner in the dining room, and jackie, who had not participated in the revolution, until the very end and joined his stepfather's staff, came down with most people think typhus or some type of fever and died a few days later. >> this is very common in the period. the average life expectancy would have been 50's or 60's. >> except you need to think of the fact that a large part of those in the mortality figures are young children who died before they're 5 or 6. the death rate is young children or women giving birth who died in childbirth. those figures are skewed. if you lived beyond 6 and if you survived childbirth, the chances of you living into your 70's were fine. >> washington men lived beyond the 50's. he had a sense that he was living on borrowed time at 57. >> time for some questions from around the country. the first one is jennifer in south dakota. what's your question? >> i was wondering what martha's relationship was to general washington's staff, people like alexander hamilton and maybe some of the younger politicians like monroe and maybe even madison, especially considering that she did lose her children. >> well, that's a great question, because from the time she first gave birth at 18, 19, she was a really wonderful mother. she doted on the children, grandchildren, nieces and nephews. during the war with the young officers, she was more or less like a house mother at a fraternity. she looked after these young men and she saw that they ate enough and that they had dry socks. they did all the important things and concerned herself with them in that way. and forever afterward the young men of those days remembered her as their mother, as their foster mother. >> she also had a sense of humor. alexander hamilton loved the ladies, and they returned his interest. at one point in the war -- this is before hamilton married betsy skyler. martha had an amorous tomkat. >> i'm going to move on to another question from tom, of all things, from bethesda, maryland. >> there was a special relationship between george washington and the marquis de lafayette. how did martha get along with him? >> he was another of the young men that she became a mother to. when he came although the richest man in france, he was one of the most unhappy. he was escaping persecution by his in-laws and by the court, and he came as a young man. he was 18 years old when she met him, and she thought of him as another son. she treated him that way. he loved it. he saw a part of that as what america was like, where people could be made over and he could be made over. >> he was one of the better observers who gives us a window on the relationship between the washingtons. he writes a letter. people ask why did martha spend every winter of the revolution with washington in lafayette? she loved her husband fondly. >> our next call comes from montpelier, virginia. good evening. you are on. >> i read in washington a few months ago, and at that time he mentioned that the judge woman left because martha told her she was going to pass her on down to her daughter and that she trusted and liked martha, but she didn't want to work for the daughter. >> that's actually her granddaughter. the daughter was many years dead by then. martha had three granddaughters, and the oldest one was a fairly bad tempered and very capricious, and i do not think anyone would have wanted to work for her, much less belong to her. and certainly when she was told that eliza had requested her and that she was going to -- when they went home that she would be going to live with eliza when she got married, she decided enough was enough and took off. >> the montpelier folks are going to be yelling at me. shame on me. monticello was thomas jefferson's home, so we have to correct that. >> folks who smuggled her to portsmouth, new hampshire, and mrs. washington wanted to advertise for her return. and it put washington in a very awkward situation. >> in michigan, what is your question? >> i wondered what you thought about how historic sites deal with first ladies, in particular, martha washington. do you think she is well represented? are there things we can do to talk about what she did? >> i certainly think in philadelphia it would be good to see even more done about martha washington as the first lady, but at mount vernon they have done an incredible job. mount vernon is the leader among these historical houses. they have an actress who portrays martha washington, and they really make clear how important she was, that she was not just a hostess. >> next up is shirley watching us in tuesdayson. hi, shirley, you're on. >> i'd like to ask a question about the custis-lee house in arlington. >> have you been to visit it? >> oh, yes, several times. i grew up in the washington area, and i was just there, and i saw it was being renovated, and i was curious. i don't really remember why it was in the custis family. >> thanks very much. >> well, because martha's grandson, washington custis, who was adopted along with his sister, nelly, by the washingtons and lived with them throughout their lives, when he -- after the washingtons died and he was on his own, he decided to build a beautiful mansion, which he did, and it was arlington. so this was the custis mansion. it in fact never belonged to robert lee. robert married mary custis, his daughter, and cared for it and lived there when he wasn't out on the frontier someplace building buildings and all. but it passed from washington custis to his daughter, marry, to the lees' son. lee was more of the caretaker, but he was the most famous of them all, so his name is included. >> if you want to humanize the washingtons, it's a wonderful or universal story about how george and martha agreed to disagree about george washington parke custis, known as young wash or tub, who was, i think most people agree, spoiled royally by his grandmother. and he was in and out of school, and these wonderful letters in which washington was pouring out the benefits of his life experience about how he would work all day long, it's amazing how much you could get done, etc., etc., etc. totally wasted on tub, who would go on to become famous for his connection to george washington. >> when the couple married, george washington was in the process of building mount vernon. >> well, mount vernon existed as a four-room farmhouse, but it was in the process of adding a second story. so then it was an eight-room house with an attic area at the top. >> doing that to bring his new wife there for -- >> he paid for it himself. it was partly his pride he did not want to be marrying a rich woman and using her money to make his house. i think it was to show that he, too, had a lot to offer. >> both of you have spent hundreds of hours at mount vernon. is it fair to call it the centerpiece of the washingtons' existence? >> absolutely. >> definitely, of course. >> yeah, it was the north star, the place they always wanted to return to, the place they were happiest. and yet, it's remarkable -- not to jump ahead, but after the president died, maybe the greatest sacrifice of all that martha was asked to make, and yet the last ultimate she was willing to have his remains removed from mount vernon and moved to the new capitol building in washington, d.c.. fortunately, that never happened. bureaucracy took over. >> it just shows how that -- how bad politics works out sometimes. they got to arguing so they did not take him away. >> let's show you some of the views of mount vernon when we visited. >> it's clear that after martha arrives at mount vernon in april of 1759, there's a lot of management that she has to do. when she married george washington she brings with her 12 house slaves, and that is really almost an unimaginable luxury. these are slaves who, for the most part, are not field labor or not producing crops, which is where your income is coming from. they are doing things like cooking, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, sewing. this is not productive labor, in the sense that it's not producing income. so she brings those slaves with her. she brings financial resources to the marriage as well as managerial skills. makes mount vernon a successful operation and make it possible for washington to be away for eight years fighting a war. so the fact that washington has this support system that enabled him to volunteer his time and talents to run the revolution is clearly critical. there is a manager who during most of the revolution is a distant cousin of george washington. later the farm manager is george augustin washington, who is washington's nephew. and he ends up marrying fannie bassett, who is martha washington's niece. so that tells you something about the closeness of some of the family relationships. it is clear while they are at mount vernon with martha washington, she was a take charge woman. in terms of her interaction with the slaves, she's interacting with the cooks in the kitchen, the maids who are serving in the house. there are also slave women who are spinning on a continual basis to brow yarn. she's supervising what the gardeners are doing. martha was a great lover of gardens and having cut flowers. she loved having a kitchen garden that she could go out and bring in vegetables for what they're going to be able to serve at mount vernon. she's the one who's really planning the menus. there are just a lot of levels that she is working with. it's a big operation. really the center of her whole life. >> if you visit mount vernon today and with years of documentary research, how close is it to re-creating the life that george and martha washington experienced? >> nothing today could re-create the life at that time, because for one thing, they would have to take all the motorized vehicles away. they would have to have haystacks, manure piles, outdoor toilets. there was so much about the life that was so much more primitive than it is. but as close as you can today, it's very good. as i said, it's the leader in the historical houses. >> george washington, what kind of a businessman was he? >> that is an aspect of his life that is least understood. they think of him as a complex conservative. they should think of him more in agriculture. he had a great passion for it. he was a real experimental farmer. he realized this was not fertile soil to begin with. it was being exploited by tobacco. tobacco really should be a crop of the past. he experimented with over 60 different crops to see what would work best. a very quick point i wanted to make was "the apprentice"ship that running mount vernon offered, if there was an ad for first lady in 1789, martha washington's prior experience really qualified her uniquely. and one of the things that she did -- if you go to mount vernon today, you'll notice there are two, in effect, wings, that were added during the revolution, which, by the way, she oversaw the construction. there's the dining room, which is a very public space, and then there's a very private wing that contains their bedroom and his study. one of the jobs she had -- they had 600 people a year, strangers, who showed up, just because they wanted to see the most famous man on earth. they were all welcome. they were all greeted. most of them were fed, given a bed overnight. but even washington, he'd disappear in the evening, go to his study, leaving martha to converse with the visitors. >> their bedroom was one of the other videos we chose. let's watch that now. >> ok. >> the room that we refer to and show off in the mansion at the washingtons bed chamber is a room that was part of the south wing of the mansion here at mount vernon that was started in 1775, right before george washington left to participate in the continental congress, and then the revolutionary war. george washington does always refer to it as mrs. washington's chamber. and it's clear that it was kind of the center -- her nerve center for mount vernon. so the sort of daily routine was that when mrs. washington got out, she typically spent time in that chamber doing her hour of spiritual meditation. perhaps later in the day writing letters, talking with her cooks to plan menus for the day, giving assignments for what was to be done that day. when her grandchildren were young, we know she also used that room for teaching them, reading them stories, sewing in the afternoons. so you can really imagine how wonderful it would have been in that room. one the most notable pieces is the bed that is in that bed chamber. that is the bed on which george washington died. but we also know from martha washington's will that she had a personal role in acquiring that bed, which is a bit larger than the typical dimensions for an 18th century bed. so it seems perhaps that she's getting kind of a custom-made bed for her quite tall husband. another piece in the room that has a very close connection with martha washington is her desk. although very little of the correspondence between george and martha washington has survived, because martha washington destroyed their private correspondence. it was in that desk that two of their letters were found that had slipped behind one of the drawers. that is very special to us as kind of the preserver of that little bit of very personal correspondence. it's not just a place where she slept. i can just picture her really sitting in her easy chair by the fire with her grandchildren around, and so we can really imagine how comfortable it must have been for martha washington. >> george and martha washington's bedroom at mount vernon. one of the things that's mentioned is her morning meditations, which seemed to be a sacred time for her throughout her life. what do we know of what she did during that time? >> she was an episcopalian. she was a member of the church of england and after the revolution she became a member of the american episcopal church. she had several bibles. she read the bible and also the book of common prayer. she spent a lot of time also reading other books about the he -- episcopal point of view and she was a very, very deeply religious, but not judgmental woman. >> what about that video is important to tell people more of their room together and the life that they had? >> well, the fact that she burned all their correspondence in some ways is a metaphor. that's where they could be themselves. that's where they could say to each other what they didn't say anywhere else. and i think one reason why she burned those letters is because that was the unvarnished george washington. it wasn't simply the uniquely intimate relationship that existed between them. she was the only person on earth to whom washington could confess his doubts, his fears, his opinions of his colleagues, you name it. >> but here's the interesting thing about that -- they both had a sense that they were creating an image larger than his lifetime that they didn't want to be spoiled by -- >> but she was very careful of his papers. they were always kept in a big thrunk. when they seemed they might be in danger, the trunk would be removed. building his image, but a truthful image, sending the letters, showing him as a military man and as a political man were important. but as far as she was concerned, their private life was just that, that ladies did not promenade about letting their husband's love letters be read, or when they complained or whatever else they did, those were private. and she had not had enough privacy in her life. >> what was the content of the two letters hidden in that desk? >> they were fabulous. they were both from him to her, and they were in 1775 in philadelphia, when he has just accepted command of the continental army, which doesn't exist yet, of a nation, which doesn't exist yet. it's 1775 my honor required it, but please do not be angry with me, and he goes on and on about why it is important and why she needs to support him, and before he goes off to become the leader of the war, he makes time and now to buy some of the nicest muslin in town so she can make dresses. >> i do not think anyone reading those letters would subscribe to the widely held view their relationship was a business like one. >> they were not young at this point at all. >> let's go back to our viewer calls. gayle, you are on. >> high. am i talking to somebody? >> you are live on tv right now. >> my name is gail and i have a couple questions. i am reading a very nice easy book by mary higgins clark. she said no one ever called martha washington martha. she was always called patsy. lady bird johnson was never called claudia. i was just wondering. i just heard you mentioned in his letters that it was just mentioned on the television he did call her patsy. i also wanted to mention that in the story about martha and george washington that the house mount vernon was originally the home of his half brother, that he lived in a smaller farm. i wondered if you were going to talk about his years as a surveyor. or is this really about the years with martha as an adult. >> thank you. this is martha washington's time in the sun. how about the nickname patsy? >> it was a nickname for martha in those days. nobody was named patricia back then. it was a common name. it was the farm has his brother lived in that was the farmhouse. i was mentioning he had been added a second story to. >> arlington, texas. >> hello. thank you for taking my call. i have a question regarding salary. i wonder if you could clarify that relationship, which continued until after the revolutionary war. was he aware of the relationship and how did he honestly deal with that or was that something that was not discussed? >> do you want to start? [laughter] >> here is a classic example where mrs. washington did her cause no good by burning those letters. in the late 1950's, two letters were discovered which james flexner made a great deal out of. some would say exaggerated their significance. sally was the wife of george william fairfax, who was a neighbor and close friend. some people describe him as washington's best friend. just downriver from mount vernon. i think, clearly, there was, i would use the word infatuation. sally was slightly older, very sophisticated to someone like george, who wanted, as a young man, very much too long. who wanted to be part of the colonial aristocracy, who wanted to advance in the british military. someone like sally, who was even then unattainable, nevertheless held a special allure. exactly what the nature of that relationship was is still being debated. you talked about george washington's integrity. i think it was something even then. i do not think the relationship went beyond a lovesick young man. >> we will not disagree. when those two letters service, you cannot read them any other way but that he was a love sick puppy. they hardly make sense when you read them sentenced by some -- by sentence and tried to punctuate them, he has gone crazy because she has said something mean to him. you see how much she cares -- he cares about her. i do not think it went any further than that kind of infatuation. he did care about his friend. once he met martha and once they started to settle down, i think she had to have known. she was a smart woman. when he started talking about the elegant neighbors -- sally fairfax and her husband was there when they drop in after getting up from the dining room table and were at her funeral because it was in the midsummer and she had to be very. it is becoming clear a revolution as been coming about. the fairfaxes go back to england, never to return. there is no continuing relationship beyond friendship. >> an ancestor of martha washington, her younger brother, bartholomew, was a great uncle of mine. i was also born in virginia. i had a couple questions pertaining to life. i always heard her to met george washington carat it was a plantation property next door to the white house. he had been the guest of the chamberlains there for dinner. not knowing martha was invited, also. that was where they met. the other question i have is, i understood she attended somewhat st. peter's fit rigid episcopal church. a very short distance from the white house. >> when we roughens the white house, it is not the white house we know. >> the white house is the plantation on the monkey river where daniel costas is the lord and master there. yes, st. peter's was the church. there are different stories about how they met. some people have said he and george have known each other for a long time. i do not think there is really much belief in that because when you run the numbers it did not amount to very much. he liked to write everything as a grand, old fashioned romance. >> time to move on. george washington pushed into service as the leader of the army. martha washington spends time with him and leaves how many times? how frequently was she in the battlefield with him. >> she goes every winter to join him in the cans and make a home not just for m -- for him. they would make it a social time. of the actual eight years of the revolution, she spends, overall, five years. >> we have a video from one of those encampments in the pennsylvania, philadelphia suburbs. let's watch that now. >> martha washington came to valley forge in the fifth of february 1778. she arrived here in the evening. we know the weather while she was traveling here not always pleasant because it started out selling. -- snowing. she left, then the wind picked up and it started to rain and it became very muddy. when she finally arrived here on february 5, it was quite pleasant and the weather was 35. for a lot of the time, she was traveling through mud. this was a difficult journey. >> it is very interesting to look at the primary documentation, the letters, journals, and diaries, to see what martha did do. i think it is a little surprising and it really puts a different complexion on the entire encampment. i think, number one, general washington. they -- was to be with general washington. they had a nice relationship. we know some is used to duty. we also know she entertained. we know elisabeth came to valley forge. we know, and this is when it starts to get interesting, she served elegant dinners here. most people would never put the word elegant together with the word valley forge. this is probably where martha washington shot -- died until the log hut made our conditions much more tolerable than they were at first. right back near the kitchen. you can imagine martha washington here. some of the officers. general washington. perhaps some of the people from the area who might have been passing through. eating dinner here. it was served in the afternoon. maybe 2:00. the food they ate here was different from what eight soldiers were eating. we know there were 2000 eggs brought into valley forge. they ate that during the encampment. we know they brought in 750 pounds of butter. we know at least 16 these are some of the things martha washington would be eating here. conversation is interesting to think about. what would march up washington and other people be talking about? when elizabeth drinker came from philadelphia, it is very likely to general washington would have been interested to think of conditions at the time. martha was part of that conversation, listening to what was happening, talking in philadelphia. >> we know martha washington went to several warships services here at camp. we know there was a wonderful celebration celebrating the french alliance. martha washington is there at the center of a large tent. thousands of them are entertained and serve refreshments. those are some of the things martha is doing here. >> we are back talking about martha washington. i have a tweet hear from a viewer named jennifer who writes, amazing how much time martha washington spent with her husband on the front lines. that is what i want to start with. it sounds like we're just hearing about in valley forge, but 2500 soldiers died in that encampment in that winter. >> it was not viewed as genteel by her contemporaries. one of the things that frosted an emotional bond between mrs. washington and what would be the american people, was the perception. she had sacrificed every bit as much as her husband during the war. this was another chapter in her training for being first lady. he was in effect for eight years an executive, the close of think the country had -- the closest thing a country had, and it is very touching. they had one room on the second-floor at valley forge. they had an hour every morning sacred. an hour where they were not to be disturbed. would you not love to be a fly on the wall of those conversations? undoubtedly again, washington unloaded a lot. >> he had so many words. with a possibly when? it was not just entertaining the americans. she was entertaining officers from france, from britain, from germany -- germany. one french officer said, it was so wonderful to be there with her, drinking tea, singing, can and chatting. at the end of the evening, one would go home feeling better. can you imagines feeling better at valley forge? she had charm beyond belief. >> she had an official role acting as assistant to private secretary. it gave her a lens of the job. what else from those years were important in the development of the first lady? >> the change in her sewing habits, people sewed in tapestry and fancywork. when she was there and the local ladies came to call, she was not doing fancywork. she had the knitting needles out. she was knitting socks for the soldiers. they marched and they got bigger holes on the sauce. she must have knitted thousands of socks and encourage others to, as well as raising the money to make women's shirts, which served as uniform shirts. she physically, in terms of her work, and emotionally in terms of her leadership, helped inform the trips. >> there was a wonderful story where a group of women were going to call upon the general lady and expected a very grand figure. to their astonishment, they found her knitting and wearing a speckled apron. she clearly was not someone to stem on the stand on her position. >> thank you all for being here. this serious great and the panel is fantastic. my question is about washington's grandchildren. could you talk a little bit about martha's cousin, peter. could you talk a little bit about her relationship with her grandmother? >> when the adoption happened, when the washington adopted two of the grandchildren, they took the two youngest. the two elder girls lived with their mother and stepfather. eventually, lots of half brothers and sisters. the two elder girls spent a lot of time with washington and were very friendly with him. they were not very loving with them. they were not the same as the adopted children. patty got married very young, apparently for love. her husband, peter was a well- to-do man in georgetown and they built a beautiful house. it is open to the public. it is an incredibly gorgeous place. she bought this task and when she took it home, she found those wonderful letters. >> a reminder, martha washington outlived her four children. pretty on the goal for many to book today. not so on common during this time. the next phone call, edward. virginia. >> a fascinating program. i am originally from new york. at the cantonment, the last thing -- the loss and kamen when they offered him the kingship, could you expand on that? >> she spent a lot of time at neuberger. the warhead worn down. -- the war had worn down. >> the defining moment in american history, i do not think she was there for that. >> we have about 12 more minutes left. 90 minutes went by so quickly. we started about talking about the important white house years. our last will be the life after presidency. what is this president scenting -- setting? >> he became the first president and the first ex- president. >> did they think about that a lot? >> they were just glad to be home. >> was there any consideration of a third term? >> no. washington had wanted very much to leave after the first term. it is safe to say martha was not happy. she was not happy he took the first term. she recognized it was unavoidable and her life had become caught up in the life of the country. the third term -- >> he twice had elements that almost killed him during the time he was president. she was terrified the presidency would literally kill him. you think about every president we know. you look at the pictures of when they start. eight years later, they are more than eight years older, for sure. it is a very aging kind of job. >> we look at a political battle over the size -- what was the intensity of the political battles of this timeframe? >> remember, washington success as president depended on his persuading everyone he was not a political partisan. he did not call it a federal list of government. called it a national government. he went out of his way to include all the sections of the country. hamilton and jefferson had a cockfight. he was willing to see himself as a duke of king george and someone who the tray. all has been harder for a first lady, or a presidential child to put up with the criticism than for the president who accepted -- question had to be involved. >> she was. she took madison jefferson into hatred. she hated thomas jefferson. once he started his newspaper campaign against washington, and the reason he brought washington into it was to defeat hamilton. he said, it is a shame how much the president suffered from the source of attacks but it is necessary. she never forgave him. never. he never realized she was smart enough to see what he was doing. she thought he was horrible. the fact he was elected president was shocking. >> he made the mistake of underestimating martha washington. martha grew closer personally and politically to the atoms -- adams. she was glad it is -- it was tom adams. -- she was glad that it was john adams who won the presidency to succeed him. >> next week, we will delve in for 90 minutes for the life of abigail adams. how many years post presidency did they live at mount vernon? >> he lived two years. she lived 2.5 beyond that. >> what was the time like, their last two years -- their last years together as a couple? >> it was a great time. they were experimenting, dealing with the mill and all the things he pioneered with. she had to organize the housekeeping appeared what is so interesting is mount vernon become the symbol of the nation after they retire. there is no white house yet. washington d.c. is building up but it does not exist. it does not exist as a large place. when foreigners and important people come, what do they want to see? the building we are seeing in d.c., they want to see mount vernon and washington after washington dies, they want to see martha washington and talk to her about what it was like. they see her as the leading remnant of that history. they continue to have this -- until they die. both of them. >> he sat down and wrote a will in the course of which he identified himself as george washington, a citizen of the united states, not virginia. even more important, in which he made provisions to free the slaves that he could upon the deaf of martha. that was something he had to consult her about although i do not think we have any evidence to that effect. >> george washington does die very suddenly. it must have been a great shock. martha was very brief. -- bereaved. she does retreat. she does not use their shared a bed -- their shared bedchamber after his death. it is furnished with the actual bed we believe came to the washingtons in the 1750's from london. it is on with hanging space on a little fragment preserved in a 19th century valentine written by martha's granddaughter, nellie. that valentine says this is fabric from the turbines that hung in the room in which mrs. washington died here. that fabric exactly matches the description of the hangings that came with the dead george washington got from london in the 1750's. it points to a very romantic tale that, after george washington's death, martha washington moves upstairs but surrounds herself with things from the air -- from the very earliest days of their marriage. was a place of refuge for her. it was a place where the house continued to be busy with servants, slaves, and people visiting. those are places she could really retreat to and be quiet and contemplate and be removed from the hustle and bustle. >> when washington died, she said, it is over. my life is just waiting now. she really and truly did not want to be in that room where they had been so happy. >> did she involve herself? did she stay involved in any of the politics of the day? >> the politics of the day, she became even more secluded if anything, certainly emotionally. her emotions became even more central to her day. every day, she would walk down the path to the tomb, which you can see today. she would pray. basically, she was literally counting the days until she could be reunited with the love of her life. when you factor in her religious convictions, it is just another factor. >> they were friendly neighbors. >> we have two minutes left. a final question in virginia. >> george mason had two wives. ann -- she passed away -- and sarah. i was wondering what the relationship was between martha washington and either of george mason's wives. >> they were friendly neighbors. as far as i know, they were never intimate friends. >> that friendship was a political casualty. george mason 10 and george washington, who had been friends and collaborators and leading up to the revolution. after the constitutional convention, which washington sanctioned, it really spelled an end to their friendship. >> on twitter, someone said, quite the power couple. [laughter] what are the important things to know about the influence of martha washington? >> it is important to know how smart and powerful she was and how dependent he was on her. his achievements were his achievements. having her there with him made them much more possible. >> i think that is true. she defines influence in a way that perhaps a temporary americans -- contemporary americans might have a difficulty understanding. she was the most influential person in the face of europe -- in the face of europe. >> this is the biography of george washington, "patriarch." a striking portrait of young martha on the cover. our partners for the entire series is the white house historical association. they have been helping with documentary evidence. we get ready for the series and we say thanks as we finish up the first program. we have a group of academic advisers, and you will see many of them as the program progresses. we have a robust website with a lot of video. if we have flooded your appetite and you want to want -- learn more, c-span.org/firstladies. thank you for being with us. ♪ >> monday night, the first lady that was considered modern for a time, abigail adams. she provides a unique window into colonial america and her life with john adams. our program includes visits to quincy, massachusetts, boston, philadelphia, and washington. we will take your phone calls, tweets, and facebook comment. monday at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span and c-span.org. it chronicles life in the executive mansion during the 10 years of age are slated -- during the tenure of each first lady. we're also offering the book "first ladies of the united states of america. now available for the discounted price of well dollars $.95 plus shipping. -- 12.95

Related Keywords

New York , United States , New Hampshire , Arlington , Texas , North Carolina , Germany , Philadelphia , Pennsylvania , Raleigh , Rhode Island , Williamsburg , Virginia , Boston , Massachusetts , Michigan , Washington , District Of Columbia , London , City Of , United Kingdom , New Kent , American Episcopal Church , New Kent County , South Dakota , Episcopal Church , Monticello , Mount Vernon , Martha Falls , Maryland , King George , Paris , Rhôalpes , France , Americans , America , Britain , French , British , American , Patricia Brady , James Flexner , Parke Custis , Roland Jones , Orlando Jones , Madison Jefferson , Daniel Custis , George Mason , Mary Custis , Mary Higgins Clark , Sally Fairfax , Abigail Adams , Tom Adams , George William Fairfax , John Dandridge , Thomas Jefferson , Fannie Bassett , Robert Lee , Daniel Costas , Gilbert Stuart , John Custis , James Madison , John Adams , Richard Norton Smith ,