Transcripts For CSPAN Employment Status Of College Athletes

Is id imagine for texas football. I want to close with a question to each of you. If you had to fix one thing regarding the money aspect of where we are heading or one thing that concerns you most of the road were heading down, what is it, pete . I think one of the things one of the places where were headed right now, jimmy, thats scary to me, is that as and especially at the lower tier schools in the big five, as they struggle to build buildings to compete, as they struggle to catch up, i think we could see a purge of nonrevenue sports in order to focus more money on the sports that matter financially most. I think thats a trend were going to see in the next five years and i dont think thats good for anybody. I think if we go down the road of paying football and mens basketball players as the agents and their agents, the trial lawyers, would like us to do and i got plenty of friends that are trial lawyers including my little brother. At least you did. Were going to be put in a situation as a series of enterprises that well be forced to make that decision. That the nonrevenue sports will be eliminated. Youll see schools asked to go from 16 sports, as a minimum to compete, down to 12. Ive already sat in meetings where these conversations have happened. Thats bad for the country. Thats bad for olympic sports. Thats bad for opportunities for people to get out of lesser environments, get to university and have a better outcome in life. We just cant lose our voice. Weve lost the opportunity for young people. Focusing on the financing of two. If you think of College Athletics, its a failed Business Model the way its interpreted in the courts. We have two Revenue Streams and we are the largest feeder of athletes for the olympics. Not only our own country but around the world. Opportunities for students across the spectrum has been phenomenal but because america has a vivacious appetite for College Football and for basketball, we are running that program to fund our entire Athletic Program and thank god we have that ability to provide opportunity for a lot of people yet our voice is lost by trial lawyers. Our voice is lost in the media that says guess what everyone deserves a piece of the pie when the reality is were providing unbelievable opportunities for young people. I hope at some point in time the train hasnt left the station where we can at least regain some sanity in the amateur model. As someone who played the sport, footballs become too big in america. Its become too overbearing and dominated so much that i fear were losing sight of some of the things that make our universities great, the broader Sports Program, the opportunities for women in sport and i dont just say that because i work at the United States Olympic Committee and we obviously benefit from having robust programs that bring athletes to us but we also have athletes that come from sports that arent part of the university. I think its essential part of University Life to have that robust Sports Program and what i hope to see is that as more revenue comes into collegiate sports through, say, football and basketball, hopefully that of that money will filter into the world of olympic sport and womens sport to promote that on campus. Steve . I agree with pete that the definition of a broad based Athletics Program is becoming in some places is already an endangered species and i think youre seeing some of that kind of just whole disconnect of who the programs are for and whats the purpose and these events are going on around College Campuses and students are turning away from going to Football Games and is it about entertainment and circuses and is it really the part of what college is and whether thats going to happen or whether its just going to become really, really heavily professionalized and the impact of that across what college Athletics Programs look like. Steve, patrick, chris, steve and pete, thanks for taking the time to join us today. We have another forum coming up shortly. And we hope youll join us for that. Thanks for coming. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] more on the state of College Athletics at an event hosted by the big 12 conference. Sportswriters, former athletes and University Officials discuss the pros and cons of the Current System and how things might change if some athletes were paid for performance. From the National Press club in washington, this is about 1 15. Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for joining us here. The continuation of our Panel Discussion today, organized and sponsored by the big 12 conference. College athletes College Athletics occupies a unique position in our culture. The athletes themselves can be among the biggest stars in sports. Think about johnny football. But whether stars or not, they will likely work hard. Kain colter, former northwestern quarterback, testified before the National Labor Relations Board that he spent 50 to 60 hours a week during Training Camp in the summer and once the season started, his commitment to football was 40 to 50 hours a week. It was hard to be a student, he said, in light of his obligations as an athlete. A finding of that same nlrb hearing is likely a significant step in radically changing further how College Athletes in the society are regarded. The regional director ruled that Football Players at northwestern are in fact employees of the school and have the right to form a union. The ruling is currently being appealed by northwestern but the battle lines have been drawn. What is the student athlete . And how should he or she be treated in regard to compensation and rights . Here this afternoon to try and answer those questions or at least shed some light on some of the issues, a distinguished panel. Christine brennan, a National Columnist for usa today. Len elmore is a sportscaster for cbs and cspan. Former professional basketball player and lawyer. President of the National Basketball retired Players Association and member of the Knight Commission on intercollegiate sports. Lisa love, the former director of athletics at Arizona State university. In 2005 she was inducted into the american volleyball coaches hall of fame and teaches a graduate class at the university of louisville. Tom mcmillan, rhodes scholar. Member of congress. The founder of the National Foundation on fitness, sports and nutrition and a former cochairman of the president s council on physical fitness and sports. She is a 38 year veteran of the College Sports world and seven serves as the womens Athletic Director at of university of texas. Also a former board member of the National Association of collegiate marketing in 2003, she was inducted into that organizations hall of fame. And the director of athletics at the university of kansas. He is a published author and researcher as well as one Time Assistant on coach bill snyders staff at kansas state which he started when he was just 23 years old. Lets cut to the heart of the matter here. Should student athletes be paid . Who wants to take that one. It is an easy one. Ladies first. Thanks, and great to be with you and great to be with everyone up here. Absolutely not. They are in many ways you can make the case that they are receiving a lot of benefits now with a College Scholarship which u. S. A. Today survey a few years ago valued at over 100,000 a career in terms of coaching, exposure, training in addition to receiving a firstclass education at some the finest universities on earth. The idea that athlete student athletes need to be paid i understand the argument. Im sure we will go into that quite a bit over the next hour and a half or so. A couple of thoughts for me. I will throw them out there to get rolling on this. If we are paying the Football Player, are we paying field hockey player . And if not, why not . There is the little law known a title ix that changed the playing fields of america. I think the most important law in our country in the last 42 years and we have just begin to see it work its magic. And if you have a daughter or a girl next door, a niece, a grand daughter you know how important that law is and wait until these women are running for president and running universities and running businesses. We certainly cant ignore that law unless we decide to go to an economic model for College Athletics that leaves the university in the academic setting and bar the door if we go there. I think that my overall feeling on this, jimmy, is that the notion of be careful what you wish for. Im not so sure we would like what we create if in fact we start paying athletes and have a whole separate pro league and lose what has been such a popular piece of all of our lives which is that College Sports experience. Either playing or watching, being on campus, cheering for the stow dent athletes, many of whom are doing it the right way, are going to graduate and give back to the universities for the next 5060 years and the communities. Are there problems in College Sports . You bet. But paying athletes is not the way to solve them. Go right down the line. Lenny . I would agree conceptually. Depends when you mean by paying. I look at the relationship and came to my mind is benefactor, beneficiary. When you look at the amounts of dollars coming in based on the exploits of the student athlete should there be balance in the equities . Absolutely. But are they in the form of salary . Should the whole relationship be in the form of terms is wages, conditions and benefits which seem to inure more to ememployee than beneficiary. I would say no. We need to take a look at how to balance the equities without making it a pure employee employer relation shall. There was a lawsuit filed yesterday which is relying on the fair labor standards labor act and why student athletes under scholarship are not paid minimum wage which becomes another issue since other students are paid the minimum wage and are able to gain some kind of pay check. But in the end, i do believe that our culture in College Sports and the things that we have loved about College Sports certainly is under assault by those who always talk about getting paid. And it is really filtered down to young people. I cant tell you how many times i talked to adolescents and people who are athletes and want to become college or professional athletes but talk about the idea of getting paid without understanding the true value the scholarship and the grant. We can talk about any number of things with regard to the benefits that student athletes are getting besides the education. Room, board, books and tuition. Reform can balance with some type of payment. Also medical benefit. What number do we put on the medical benefits and hoefully reform continue those beyond eligibility. If you havent received your degree through your eligible, so many schools are moving in the direction of providing those opportunities way beyond exhaustion of you eligibility. And then finally, i would like people to fully underand it when talking about true val, scholarship versus nonscholarship students. We are talking about 29,4000 in debt is what most students who have come out of school at the senior career that is the average debt that they are carrying. Scholarship athletes are carrying nothing. To me, real value of the education and scholarship that the student athletes are receiving hasnt been articulated well enough and allowed those who assault that particular culture to kind of grab a foothold in the argument. And i think that needs to be changed. But in the end as i said before, i totally do not agree in the employeremployee relationship and i believe the benefactor, beneficiary even though there is a symbiotic relationship is one that we need to look at strongly and put into context so that we can make a definition as far as what student athletes mean to an institute and vice versa. Two versus zero. Lisa . Three versus zero. And i will take this one step further. I couldnt agree with both speakers who made a point thus far. I would always stand in line with what you just heard in the panel before this one and that is whatever has to be done to financially maintain a sustainable environment of a uniquely American Culture of attaching amateur sports to college and universities and all that positive that has been yielded over a century and then a half century once you became multigender by adding women through title ix and multiethnic by serious work in the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s. The benefit is boundless because of the concept of paying for someones education becuse they have a unique talent and then making it an inclusive environment. Having been an athlete and coach and senior official at the university of Southern California that worked specifically with the olympic sports and then becoming the athletics director at Arizona State where i was overseeing the entire enterprise and getting extremely close to basketball and football coaches and making maneuvers therein what has been cultivated over time is a beautiful marriage if you will within an Athletic Program that yields i think incredible citizenry for the United States. I think that in addition to everything that has been said. I dont want to be redundant. We have not done a good enough job of expounding on the benefits that already exist through this rather remarkable and unique american system that i believe at all costs should be sustained. And i think by paying athletes you are creating an unsustainable environment. You are not going to pay tom and not going to be able to pay mary. If you think you are, you are naive. There is no mary out there that is requesting to tolerate that. Anything that would render this del county situation that we are delicate situation that we are already in financially and make it even a little wobblier while universities are trying to make sure as they invest in the Athletic Programs they continue to flourish i would raise my hand and vote against paying athletes ten times over. Not only a gender related issue somehow. It will be a question of playing the Football Player and the basketball player and not paying the tennis player or rower. All of it. You come at this from a number of perspectives, what is your thought on this . They should be paid. And that is definitional. Let me explain. If you were going to start over and rebuild College Sports in america, first of of all you may not want to put it on your universities. We are the only nation that has done that. We have this tailing withing the dog. More importantly if you had a system generating billions of dollars you would address the equities for the players. When len and i were teammates at maryland we got 15 a month in laundry money. So did every other athlete. When i introduced legislation i created a reform bill and provided for 300 stipend for every athlete. The fact is that i do think you can create equities across the board for every athlete women or men where they get a basic sty stipend that allows them to have a life and i think that there is plenty of money in College Sports if you took the dollars that are are out there and redistributed them. The fact of the matter is, it is just a matter of time before this system blows up because there is so much going on that the system will blow up and we will be sitting there saying should the players seven more. Everybody says they get an education. I have yet to see one strong study that shows me address division one kids leaving 10 years after they left what has happened to them. I would like to see that. You tell me that they get an education. I would like to see what type of life these kids who didnt go into the nba are living and i think that would be the ultimate proof. The question is yes, i think deserve equities. I dont think they need to be employees. I think it is a way to bring them a piece of the pie. Kris . I dont disagree with the overall goal of allowing Financial Aid to expand to the point where the true cost of the sport. I think weve been on record for a long time of saying thats where we need to be. There were votes on this years ago and because of the unwieldiness of our overall governing body we couldnt get to a consensus. And today were faced with this. But the whole idea of remuneration for someone who is a the age group were talking about, 17 to 23 years old, who often make a decision to go to an institution for various reasons and once we talk to them about the college experience, sports is only a part of it. Theres real College Athletics<\/a>, its a failed Business Model<\/a> the way its interpreted in the courts. We have two Revenue Streams<\/a> and we are the largest feeder of athletes for the olympics. Not only our own country but around the world. Opportunities for students across the spectrum has been phenomenal but because america has a vivacious appetite for College Football<\/a> and for basketball, we are running that program to fund our entire Athletic Program<\/a> and thank god we have that ability to provide opportunity for a lot of people yet our voice is lost by trial lawyers. Our voice is lost in the media that says guess what everyone deserves a piece of the pie when the reality is were providing unbelievable opportunities for young people. I hope at some point in time the train hasnt left the station where we can at least regain some sanity in the amateur model. As someone who played the sport, footballs become too big in america. Its become too overbearing and dominated so much that i fear were losing sight of some of the things that make our universities great, the broader Sports Program<\/a>, the opportunities for women in sport and i dont just say that because i work at the United States<\/a> Olympic Committee<\/a> and we obviously benefit from having robust programs that bring athletes to us but we also have athletes that come from sports that arent part of the university. I think its essential part of University Life<\/a> to have that robust Sports Program<\/a> and what i hope to see is that as more revenue comes into collegiate sports through, say, football and basketball, hopefully that of that money will filter into the world of olympic sport and womens sport to promote that on campus. Steve . I agree with pete that the definition of a broad based Athletics Program<\/a> is becoming in some places is already an endangered species and i think youre seeing some of that kind of just whole disconnect of who the programs are for and whats the purpose and these events are going on around College Campuses<\/a> and students are turning away from going to Football Games<\/a> and is it about entertainment and circuses and is it really the part of what college is and whether thats going to happen or whether its just going to become really, really heavily professionalized and the impact of that across what college Athletics Program<\/a>s look like. Steve, patrick, chris, steve and pete, thanks for taking the time to join us today. We have another forum coming up shortly. And we hope youll join us for that. Thanks for coming. [applause] [captions Copyright National<\/a> cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] more on the state of College Athletics<\/a> at an event hosted by the big 12 conference. Sportswriters, former athletes and University Officials<\/a> discuss the pros and cons of the Current System<\/a> and how things might change if some athletes were paid for performance. From the National Press<\/a> club in washington, this is about 1 15. Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for joining us here. The continuation of our Panel Discussion<\/a> today, organized and sponsored by the big 12 conference. College athletes College Athletics<\/a> occupies a unique position in our culture. The athletes themselves can be among the biggest stars in sports. Think about johnny football. But whether stars or not, they will likely work hard. Kain colter, former northwestern quarterback, testified before the National Labor<\/a> Relations Board<\/a> that he spent 50 to 60 hours a week during Training Camp<\/a> in the summer and once the season started, his commitment to football was 40 to 50 hours a week. It was hard to be a student, he said, in light of his obligations as an athlete. A finding of that same nlrb hearing is likely a significant step in radically changing further how College Athletes<\/a> in the society are regarded. The regional director ruled that Football Players<\/a> at northwestern are in fact employees of the school and have the right to form a union. The ruling is currently being appealed by northwestern but the battle lines have been drawn. What is the student athlete . And how should he or she be treated in regard to compensation and rights . Here this afternoon to try and answer those questions or at least shed some light on some of the issues, a distinguished panel. Christine brennan, a National Columnist<\/a> for usa today. Len elmore is a sportscaster for cbs and cspan. Former professional basketball player and lawyer. President of the National Basketball<\/a> retired Players Association<\/a> and member of the Knight Commission<\/a> on intercollegiate sports. Lisa love, the former director of athletics at Arizona State<\/a> university. In 2005 she was inducted into the american volleyball coaches hall of fame and teaches a graduate class at the university of louisville. Tom mcmillan, rhodes scholar. Member of congress. The founder of the National Foundation<\/a> on fitness, sports and nutrition and a former cochairman of the president s council on physical fitness and sports. She is a 38 year veteran of the College Sports<\/a> world and seven serves as the womens Athletic Director<\/a> at of university of texas. Also a former board member of the National Association<\/a> of collegiate marketing in 2003, she was inducted into that organizations hall of fame. And the director of athletics at the university of kansas. He is a published author and researcher as well as one Time Assistant<\/a> on coach bill snyders staff at kansas state which he started when he was just 23 years old. Lets cut to the heart of the matter here. Should student athletes be paid . Who wants to take that one. It is an easy one. Ladies first. Thanks, and great to be with you and great to be with everyone up here. Absolutely not. They are in many ways you can make the case that they are receiving a lot of benefits now with a College Scholarship<\/a> which u. S. A. Today survey a few years ago valued at over 100,000 a career in terms of coaching, exposure, training in addition to receiving a firstclass education at some the finest universities on earth. The idea that athlete student athletes need to be paid i understand the argument. Im sure we will go into that quite a bit over the next hour and a half or so. A couple of thoughts for me. I will throw them out there to get rolling on this. If we are paying the Football Player<\/a>, are we paying field hockey player . And if not, why not . There is the little law known a title ix that changed the playing fields of america. I think the most important law in our country in the last 42 years and we have just begin to see it work its magic. And if you have a daughter or a girl next door, a niece, a grand daughter you know how important that law is and wait until these women are running for president and running universities and running businesses. We certainly cant ignore that law unless we decide to go to an economic model for College Athletics<\/a> that leaves the university in the academic setting and bar the door if we go there. I think that my overall feeling on this, jimmy, is that the notion of be careful what you wish for. Im not so sure we would like what we create if in fact we start paying athletes and have a whole separate pro league and lose what has been such a popular piece of all of our lives which is that College Sports<\/a> experience. Either playing or watching, being on campus, cheering for the stow dent athletes, many of whom are doing it the right way, are going to graduate and give back to the universities for the next 5060 years and the communities. Are there problems in College Sports<\/a> . You bet. But paying athletes is not the way to solve them. Go right down the line. Lenny . I would agree conceptually. Depends when you mean by paying. I look at the relationship and came to my mind is benefactor, beneficiary. When you look at the amounts of dollars coming in based on the exploits of the student athlete should there be balance in the equities . Absolutely. But are they in the form of salary . Should the whole relationship be in the form of terms is wages, conditions and benefits which seem to inure more to ememployee than beneficiary. I would say no. We need to take a look at how to balance the equities without making it a pure employee employer relation shall. There was a lawsuit filed yesterday which is relying on the fair labor standards labor act and why student athletes under scholarship are not paid minimum wage which becomes another issue since other students are paid the minimum wage and are able to gain some kind of pay check. But in the end, i do believe that our culture in College Sports<\/a> and the things that we have loved about College Sports<\/a> certainly is under assault by those who always talk about getting paid. And it is really filtered down to young people. I cant tell you how many times i talked to adolescents and people who are athletes and want to become college or professional athletes but talk about the idea of getting paid without understanding the true value the scholarship and the grant. We can talk about any number of things with regard to the benefits that student athletes are getting besides the education. Room, board, books and tuition. Reform can balance with some type of payment. Also medical benefit. What number do we put on the medical benefits and hoefully reform continue those beyond eligibility. If you havent received your degree through your eligible, so many schools are moving in the direction of providing those opportunities way beyond exhaustion of you eligibility. And then finally, i would like people to fully underand it when talking about true val, scholarship versus nonscholarship students. We are talking about 29,4000 in debt is what most students who have come out of school at the senior career that is the average debt that they are carrying. Scholarship athletes are carrying nothing. To me, real value of the education and scholarship that the student athletes are receiving hasnt been articulated well enough and allowed those who assault that particular culture to kind of grab a foothold in the argument. And i think that needs to be changed. But in the end as i said before, i totally do not agree in the employeremployee relationship and i believe the benefactor, beneficiary even though there is a symbiotic relationship is one that we need to look at strongly and put into context so that we can make a definition as far as what student athletes mean to an institute and vice versa. Two versus zero. Lisa . Three versus zero. And i will take this one step further. I couldnt agree with both speakers who made a point thus far. I would always stand in line with what you just heard in the panel before this one and that is whatever has to be done to financially maintain a sustainable environment of a uniquely American Culture<\/a> of attaching amateur sports to college and universities and all that positive that has been yielded over a century and then a half century once you became multigender by adding women through title ix and multiethnic by serious work in the Civil Rights Movement<\/a> in the 1960s. The benefit is boundless because of the concept of paying for someones education becuse they have a unique talent and then making it an inclusive environment. Having been an athlete and coach and senior official at the university of Southern California<\/a> that worked specifically with the olympic sports and then becoming the athletics director at Arizona State<\/a> where i was overseeing the entire enterprise and getting extremely close to basketball and football coaches and making maneuvers therein what has been cultivated over time is a beautiful marriage if you will within an Athletic Program<\/a> that yields i think incredible citizenry for the United States<\/a>. I think that in addition to everything that has been said. I dont want to be redundant. We have not done a good enough job of expounding on the benefits that already exist through this rather remarkable and unique american system that i believe at all costs should be sustained. And i think by paying athletes you are creating an unsustainable environment. You are not going to pay tom and not going to be able to pay mary. If you think you are, you are naive. There is no mary out there that is requesting to tolerate that. Anything that would render this del county situation that we are delicate situation that we are already in financially and make it even a little wobblier while universities are trying to make sure as they invest in the Athletic Program<\/a>s they continue to flourish i would raise my hand and vote against paying athletes ten times over. Not only a gender related issue somehow. It will be a question of playing the Football Player<\/a> and the basketball player and not paying the tennis player or rower. All of it. You come at this from a number of perspectives, what is your thought on this . They should be paid. And that is definitional. Let me explain. If you were going to start over and rebuild College Sports<\/a> in america, first of of all you may not want to put it on your universities. We are the only nation that has done that. We have this tailing withing the dog. More importantly if you had a system generating billions of dollars you would address the equities for the players. When len and i were teammates at maryland we got 15 a month in laundry money. So did every other athlete. When i introduced legislation i created a reform bill and provided for 300 stipend for every athlete. The fact is that i do think you can create equities across the board for every athlete women or men where they get a basic sty stipend that allows them to have a life and i think that there is plenty of money in College Sports<\/a> if you took the dollars that are are out there and redistributed them. The fact of the matter is, it is just a matter of time before this system blows up because there is so much going on that the system will blow up and we will be sitting there saying should the players seven more. Everybody says they get an education. I have yet to see one strong study that shows me address division one kids leaving 10 years after they left what has happened to them. I would like to see that. You tell me that they get an education. I would like to see what type of life these kids who didnt go into the nba are living and i think that would be the ultimate proof. The question is yes, i think deserve equities. I dont think they need to be employees. I think it is a way to bring them a piece of the pie. Kris . I dont disagree with the overall goal of allowing Financial Aid<\/a> to expand to the point where the true cost of the sport. I think weve been on record for a long time of saying thats where we need to be. There were votes on this years ago and because of the unwieldiness of our overall governing body we couldnt get to a consensus. And today were faced with this. But the whole idea of remuneration for someone who is a the age group were talking about, 17 to 23 years old, who often make a decision to go to an institution for various reasons and once we talk to them about the college experience, sports is only a part of it. Theres real College Athletics<\/a> experience begins in the admissions office. Theyve got to meet some criteria, agree to some benchmarks. Frankly, its a volunteer type of situation. No one is twisting your arm to embark upon what today ncaa and College Division<\/a> athletics requires. Its not easy and its not for everybody. If it was, everybody would be doing it freely. They come with a gift. They do have to adhere to academic goals and standards and progress toward degree in order to even maintain eligibility. Its not remuneration and its not payforplay. I think the amount of dollars that we generate everybody mixes revenue with sort of free cash flow. What we do with revenue goes back to the experiences of these young people. There are some student athletes that leave college with debt. If theyre on a partial scholarship, they could leave with some debt. Thats why we want delta to be covered by wellresourced institutions if they can. And it will be permissive legislation. The notion that this is a pay for play activity flies right in the face of what its really about. You go back to the 1950s, Darrell Royal<\/a> when he got his job at the university of texas in 1957 went to the Athletics Council<\/a> at texas and says ive got my coaching staff. Now i want one more coach. They said why . He said i dont want this coach to know anything about football. I want this to be the academic and brain. Called him the brain coach. His name was ian hewlett. This was in 1957. Daryls comment to the alumni and donors, he said it does me absolutely no good to bring these guys into this College Setting<\/a> and not have them advance to a degree. They will be playing football and im serious about it but what really matters to me is that they finish with a degree. How many years later, were talking with that same question. Shane . I guess i have the benefit of going last and agreeing with everyone. At least in part with each. If not all, with some. I would position myself somewhere between the two ends. One is saying that i in reflecting on the last panel who at the very least was very entertaining. I dont know if we can live up to the bar they set. But i think they concluded with making comments about how we seem to be focused on the 1 of the student athlete who brings a lot of talent to the table and matriculates to the nba and the nfl, etc. And we are sort of ignoring the 99 of the others. Now, having said that, i will defer to my elders and say ive always heard about laundry money and always thought we should have Something Like<\/a> that. Im not sure why it ended back then. But we have young men and women who could use a little more to function around our campuses and in our college towns. Having said that, i think weve lost sight of, and maybe this is just personal. There is thousands upon thousands of young boys and girls that that dont get to play at the bcs level and would give their left arm to have the privilege of doing what our young people do on our College Campuses<\/a>. Im somewhere between everyone. I believe in the word equities was used previously and i think that was a very good term. At the same time, i believe that some of the individuals on the Previous Panel<\/a> were talking about what number do you put on our current full rides, the i heard 60,000, 70,000, 80,000 by the time you factor in and chris is the expert everything from gear to medical, to travel, everything we do to compensate our young people with. But im sure well flesh all these points out as we go along. I think that leads to the next question, which is what is the cost of attendance . How do we quantify what a student athlete should get . We know what they get now. Depending on what university they are at. At kansas, im sure you could tell me what that is. But what should that figure be . What should it include and what should it not include . Anybody have any thoughts on that . Since tom brought up the 15 laundry money. Did he borrow some from you . Huh . Did he borrow some money from you . No. We had a lot of dirty laundry there but 15 a month went from anything to buying a record or having an opportunity to go on a date once a month for those of of us who didnt have any other resources. One of the things we need to focus on when we talk about full cost of attendance and subsidizing, we have to talk about need. So many times we think across the board, but there are athletes, student athletes who dont have that need, the demonstrated need for those dollars, be it because they come from a family of means or theyve had other types of means. But in the end, i think it is being a part of the university community, being on a level that makes you feel like youre a part of this community, as i said, whether its being able to buy a tape, being able to go to the movies, being able to do something that the average student is capable of doing, and i think that we lose sight of the fact that its not just about, you know, when people make the argument, paying for, you know, the services rendered. This is about making you feel as though youre part of the university instead of feeling as though youre isolated and something different. So can i itemize and categorize each and every one of those things . Not necessarily. But its like something the Supreme Court<\/a> said, you know it when you see it. Right. And you understand it. But going back to the situation where you have administrations and other of institutions speak of the inability to be able to put the resources forward. I think if its needsbased across the board and all of athletics, i think it is something that is affordable and certainly necessary. But overall and i want to get back to something that tom said real quickly. When you talk about the athletes and what do they do 10 years from now, i think thats Something Else<\/a> we havent focused on, and that is learning to develop some type of advocacy, whether students are advocates for themselves or others being able to get the education that they truly want. The impetus is on the student athlete. They have to be an advocate for their education. If youre practicing beyond the time you need to study, if youre going to miss an exam or be placed at a disadvantage for an exam, you should be able to say that and attend the class or attend the exam without fear of retribution, which i believe unfortunately exist. Thats a bigger issue. You know, having played that that, that has to be focused it becomes the responsibility of the student athlete. If you take away the fear to be advocates for themselves. Some say they are not capable of doing it. You have some athletes that they are not getting enough time, playing time. I can guarantee theyll be the best advocates they can be. Its all a question of desire. Yes. I was going to comment. If you were going to start over again, which im going to suggest, in an ideal world, you would want in your National Interest<\/a> to have a lot of minor sports because thats good for your olympic movement, thats the way we impress people around the world and thirdworld nations by having a strong plasma movement. Very important. Its also important that we have strong title ix. We need to have broadbreadth programs on our campuses. They you look at equities and say look at the situation, look at what the ncaa takes down in an administrative costs and look at the conferences, with all due respect. Youre talking about hundreds of millions of dollars. If you rad to rationalize the system over again and create equities, certainly players across the board would get their full cost of attendance and a little money to live on. Thats not paying them. Thats just looking at the situation and saying, does the need a million six when the president s at 300,000 . The highest paid across the country are Football Players<\/a>. Im all for paying coaches big money. I am for bigtime College Sports<\/a>, but the money needs to be handled differently. Players have equities and minor sports are important. Our olympic efforts important. Thats an ideal way to look at it. How realistic is that, though, when there is such competition to win . When winning is so important . It doesnt have anything to do. When lenny and i played at maryland. The coach made 25,000. We played just as hard and winning was just as important. We worked just as hard. You play. I tell you. You said how realistic is that . Ill tell you today that theres going to be legislation introduced in the lame duck president ial commission to study Intercollegiate Athletics<\/a> by jim moran and its going to model what happened with jerry ford and the olympics in the 1970s. There are going to be some serious efforts to try to take a look at this and ask the big question. What is in our National Interest<\/a> as a country. I think those are the things we ought to think about. Youre advocating for olympic sports as a component of the culture to make our Society Better<\/a> . Yes. The realty is going to be this is a big business, whether we like it or not. Youre going to tell me when you have a Committee Like<\/a> that and you have politicians on board making decisions, the lobbyists from the network and others arent going to have an impact, weve got to factor all those in. Im saying the most important asset in America Today<\/a> is the system of Higher Education<\/a>, our universities and colleges. I dont disagree. If you want to have an innovation, jobs for the future, dont screw up your colleges. Athletics can be done in a balanced reasonable way. I think thats going to be the challenge over the next 20 years. Whether it happens by congress or it happens because of the courts, youre going to be facing a day of reckoning. I think its time to look at whats important for us as a country. Thats really the crux. I think that discussion is fair, because the model of Higher Education<\/a> is challenged as well in this country, so having athletics as part of the fabric of an institution is what were trying to hang on to here, because, if anything, we want to be an asset. There are few things in life right now where you can teach young people how to be competitive. And its not about winning. Its about preparing and learning what it takes of your own personal talent and fortitude to learn to compete in this world. I wish i could find another analogy or another activity that is as beautiful as sports to do that. And its really hard to find that on our campuses today. I look at our 508 young men and women student athletes, i tell them we have a staff of 350 people here who are talented. We have ph. D. S, Sports Medicine<\/a> staff, event experts, people who can run facilities, sustain our budgets. They all choose to work in this environment. Why . Because they really care about the 500plus in our care. They are other peoples children. They are turned over to us. Some on full scholarship, some on partial. They all get to represent their university. Theyre on a regimen that is unbelievable. And we have to fund it. Whenever you ask why espn pays the university of texas for a linear channel and what we do with those dollars, we put them right back against those experiences, to keep the people on payroll that directly is the young people to hire the best in each of those. If Charlie Strong<\/a> is the best football coach in the planet, and we think he is, why would we hire an activities dem eck counselor who was any less or a Sports Medicine<\/a> chief who is unable to get us through all of the concussion protocol and things facing athletes in competition . I believe that that in the ecosystem at our universities, we want to be an asset, we want to selfsustain and if we are lucky that we cannot only sustain our operation but give oney back to the institution for academic endeavors which we do to help the President Fund<\/a> chairs and other things on the academic side because they are getting cutbacks from state funding and the other things that ultimately fund all of the state institutions we should be there to help. But if you if we begin to remunerate the operation, remunerate the participants, that breaks that model. Right now were trying to sustain the Financial Aid<\/a> model, participation model and be a part of an asset to our institution. Could i clarify the cost of attendance question that you asked earlier . Yes. This had been the case in university of Southern California<\/a> and university of arizona. They described a lot of it, about the additional money where its currently alculated. It encompasses the the estimations are different on campus, but things like laundry and food and the ability for a young person to travel home, or theres just a builtin life ist, and that gap of the current full scholarship to what they would estimate at u. S. C. To be full cost of attendance is significantly different than in tempe, because cost of living in los angeles is so much more expensive. So theres discussion about how to funnel what is needed to a higherneed student coming into this particular coming into a university environment. All those things, i think, are great part of discussions. And i can say this now, because im retired and im free to say it. But i actually would think, and in a way, would welcome a congressional review because theres so much positive thats under wraps because of the focus on just the couple of things. One of the primary being coaching salaries. It sends off an alarm clock everywhere. And i understand that. And i understand it forcing questions. But if you did a deeper dive in researching exactly what goes on on a College Campus<\/a> and the commitment to academic wellbeing and the fact that we are graduating football and basketball players in particular well over 70 , i dont think the rate was 70 when you were playing. Im being respectful, but its absolutely marvelous. If you follow the track for 10 years, and i need to be careful, because i cant cite the source of the study, my memorys not good enough. But the average income for an american with a College Degree<\/a> over a lifetime is 1 million more than the average income of an american without. So while weve heard it ad nauseam. The 1 that makes and is able to be talented enough to play professional sports and make their living therein, thats fantastic, but for the most part, professionals would welcome a deeper dive to look at whats really going on to facilitate the growth and educational and that undergraduate degree. At least many are getting masters degrees while still playing. Its all happening. We just have a focus on an issue thats become larger than life so the guts of the deal is overlooked and the guts of the deal is pretty special. The issue youre talking about is an important point, and comes to the heart of my industry, the mainstream sports media, i can say the male dominated mainstream sports media. Dear, dear friends of mine, people i went to college with, people i adore but you hear them all, football, basketball. They dont even bother with the pesky little adjective men men. We should be able to say mens basketball and womens asketball. I think most of us probably do. Its as if there are two sports, to your point about wheres the deeper dive. They are two sports, theres football and mens basketball. And nothing else matters. Nothing else exists. It has clouded our vision and just totally money has a way of doing that. It does. But also a lack of ill be critical of our colleagues, jimmy. I think we have not done a good job of explaining that most people, as chris was alluding to, most people are doing it well, most of these people are graduating. Most of them are giving back to their communities for the next 50 to 60 years. Most are not getting arrested. Most are not standing on tables and screaming vulgar things, not to mention any particular names. And i wonder and ill just kind of throw this out but the public, we hear so much about this side of what weve been describing. And the football coach and the mens basketball coach and attendance, money and all that. Im a capitalist. We all are. I get it, i absolutely get it. But i wonder when were going to start hearing the voice of the mom and dad paying full freight, who by the way, fees go to help pay for athletics. When they hear theres more and more for athletics, im not looking for moms and dads to march on washington, d. C. And have some kind of a riot. I dont think we will see that. We know for a fact that when you talk to fans, they dont want to see athletes being paid. I know in one of the cases that have been litigated, a source of mine told me they didnt want to go to a jury because a jury could say no to paying athletes and no to the likeness issue and, again, theres a lot there. We could be here for weeks discussing these issues, obviously. But i think its very important to step back and i dont think weve done a good job in the media but stepping back and of all the people saying, i am sick of this, enough is enough, or im not going to buy season tickets or ill buy season tickets to softball. Because i just dont want this. I said earlier be careful when you wish for. I think journalistically, one of the main things we have to do is focus on these issues because there is a whole other side of this story that by and large is not being heard because of my wonderful friends in the mainstream sports media who beat the drum on the two revenue sports to the extent of avoiding Everything Else<\/a>. Let me say one thing before i give you an opportunity to speak. I think to play devils advocate, you can be clearly in line with what youre thinking and recognize that there are certain aspects of the way the situation is the status quo that is just unattennable. Wasnt ross car robinson a codefendant in trial because of his likeness. When did he graduate from the university . Coplaintiff. Coplaintiff. I misspoke. That cant be right. Something like that needs to be recognized, that, you know, almost 60 years later, likeness of an athlete is still controlled by the university. You know, that he played for. I think you can be on board with the larger thought but kind of understand that some things in the engine room, some nuts and bolts need to be changed. Something that cant get overlooked here is what tom spoke of. He sent up a warning flare that sports in america is dear to all of our hearts. Its as important as anything in our country and probably bigger than what we want it to be. James mitchell one of our greatest authors in the last century wrote a book thats decades old but speaks to so much of what were talking about. I do believe its going to end up in your shop. I think anything this important to all of us is going to end up in our nations capital. Theres a reason were here today. Having said that, i dont want to lose sight of something lynn said earlier, talking about needbased. Im going to reflect back to when i was a football coach at the university of wyoming in 1997 making a salary much less than what people do today in his business, i remember distinctly at that time, full ride scholarship sill exist as they do now. What that encompasses is taking johnny or susie from an uner city or rural farm and putting hem in your college town and giving them, they now go to school just like they did in high school and get their books and get their food and they are they are remunerated for the things that you have before college. In light of that, i have this distinct memory, pulling up the football practice in a 10yearold used cars and having a boy of a family of means pull up in a new s. U. V. Getting a call that someone else had not eaten for three days. A real case of that. That was during a break period. That never happened when school was in session but based upon rules at the time you couldnt give them food or money for food during breaks that the time. I want to underscore that and give real world examples that we try paint this is a broad brush stroke and we are talking about young men and women all caught in the mix that each have different stories and i believe it will end up in your shop. Isnt it difficult to administer Something Like<\/a> that when the rules arent exactly the same for everybody . Our rule book is nearly impossible, but as the Previous Panel<\/a> said, we are the ncaa. Its up to us to fix this. And we can fix it. Im not sure we can fix enforcement, though. The model that Scott Blackmon<\/a> talked earlier about when they were talking about the drug issues, drug use in olympic sports and he used the term, you know, we were the fox guarding the hen house and they created usada, i think there needs to be. Outside organization with regard to compliance, monitoring, enforcement with some teeth in it. If that happens with a governmenttype agency that is where we need to start on that. Some of these rules on how we feed them, when we feed them, etc. , those are so easy to fix, ut what we cant just fix is integrity, lack of ethics and people who just want to play by a different rulebook. Thats hurting College Athletics<\/a> and the nationwide perception of why College Sports<\/a> is good, why it matters, why there are benefits to it that are generational. If we cant fix our reputation, then it will be difficult to continue under the circumstances. And the ultimate insult to the full boat paying parent at your alma mater, all of our alma maters is that there is something going on on our campus where an admission slot is created for an active you the that consistent with with the ares universitys values. There should be benchmarks to stay at the different universities. But is that realistic . Is that ever going to happen as long as theres the need to win and the best player doesnt qualify . Yes, indeed. If, in fact, as tom mentioned, there is a collective in the National Interest<\/a> of politicians, those who have the power to grant things like an antitrust exemption on a limited basis, to allow a body like the ncaa, and im not saying this particular makeup but at some point, an essential body or authority thats going to be able to impose a lot of the things without having to worry about having some kind of antitrust litigation against them. That is rolely what it is. In the old west when you had a bunch of gangsters you had to hire a strong marshall to do anything they need to, to be able to clean it up. I think that is where we are heading. I agree with tom, the point i was making is lets get rid of the tail wagging the dog mentality, which is what we have in College Sports<\/a> right now where University Admission<\/a> is secondary to the mission of athletics. We have to go back to that but the only way youll go back to it, once again, is if there is as i mentioned before, some central body Strong Enough<\/a> to be able to enforce the rules and to be able to apply sanctions, to be able to make decisions that ordinarily would be considered maybe anticompetitive or some type of antitrust violation, but nevertheless, because of the unique position, as tom mentioned, that College Sports<\/a> holds in our National Interest<\/a>, that somebody has to be able to do it. Based on a rule of reason which is part of an antitrust examination, that would be the reason why you provide that limited exemption. An exemption can lift the whole range of things that the ncaa or whatever body it is has to accomplish or has to continue and it can be reviewed on an annual or every two years for the success. If theres no success and no willingness to step up to the line, you remove it, were back in the same position, or you change the leadership. Something strong like that has o be done. I think the congressional oversight reviews is the First Step Towards<\/a> that. Tom. Real quickly. Listen, i agree with everybody on this podium that says that College Sports<\/a> is very good and very positive. So start there. We just need to figure out how to make it positive for all the participants, including our universities. If you look back in the 1970s, i was on the 1972 olympic team. We had a really tough olympics. Other members of congress put in bills saying we need to a president ial commission to look at this. Everybodys fighting. Nobodys in control. We formed a president ial commission made up of laypeople and minutes optical congress. They passed a bill. It became the amateur sports aspect. It gave the Olympic Committee<\/a> the authority to finally be in charge. What has happened in college forces that nobody is in charge . Theres a lot of people in charge but nobody is really in charge. So i think that that failure has caused all this all these problems. And whats happening is were seeing this unwinding of this because its going to the courts and Everything Else<\/a>. And were heading towards this chaos, which i think ultimately we will ask us how do we fix it and i think thats sooner rather than later. Why isnt the ncaa in charge . First of all, they dont control football. You have all of the conferences that have all their strengths. They have as mark emmeret said in front of the Senate Commerce<\/a> committee he said ill really not fully in charge here. Heed a muttd that he has limits admitted that he has limits on his power. I fully recognize that. Quite frankly, im looking for a benevolent dictator in College Sports<\/a> because to take all the good and make it work, for all the things that we like about College Sports<\/a>, and thats thats just my position. I just dont know what i think were going to head down a road where were all going to be forced into this position. So i was going to ask, you mentioned it before, we may be headed towards a day of reckoning. All of you folks, do you think were getting close to that day where the situation is going to become so impossible that its going to need to be addressed by congress . Ow close are we . I dont necessarily think congress. I said it could be the president. The president ial commission. Ultimately theres got to be congressional involvement. With the Supreme Court<\/a> i imagine this stuff could go all the way to the Supreme Court<\/a>. The Supreme Court<\/a>, who knows . I also say thats not a good thing either. Having all this litigation in the public eye is not good for College Sports<\/a>. I think that it really tarnishes all the good work that everybody in this rooms doing. And i see more and more this coming. Like lenny pointed out. That really bothers me. And so we need to get we need to get the cows back in the barn here and run it. You have to give the Central Authority<\/a> a shield from the chinks in the armor, the death by 1,000 cuts, if you will, and allow the right leadership to do exactly what he said, the benevolent dictator to be able to enforce the rules. So draw up the perfect situation, just spitball it right here, what is it, exactly . Once again, make it impervious to the litigation thats going on right now, give it the opportunity to have subpoena power, the power to apply the sanctions and the outside authority, i think, makes perfect good sense simply because theres no conflict of interest, if you will, as you have now or the organization, the ncaa is made up of institutions, some of them under investigation themselves. I think that makes a situation that, you know, can be untenable. But more than anything else, the list of reforms that are required, you know, to have that shield conditioned upon achieving those lists of reforms. Those reforms have to go to the benefit of student athletes. If it goes to the benefit of the student athlete, then you put the dynamic back in whack again where theres not the tail wagging the dog, that universities can now continue to be in the business of developing leaders as opposed to in the business of, you know, the arms race where you have to continue to build facilities and do things to be better than your competitor. That levels the playing field. Once you have that Central Authority<\/a>, as i said, cleaning up the wild west, then everybody falls in line, you create a new culture. Since the board of education, oklahoma regents vs. The ncaa, you know, thats when it started to unravel. When the ncaa lost its Central Authority<\/a>. And people also recognize there is a weakness there that we can attack for our own interests. I think thats where the problem is. If you read justice whites dissent, it says from a reasonable standpoint, the uniqueness of College Sports<\/a>, you know, gives it makes it eserving of protection in some way, shape or form. Im not saying unfettered power. But nevertheless, its conditioned upon achieving these goals for the benefit of the student athlete which in turn obviously knocks it back to the dynamic of letting universities develop leadership. Whether youre controlling coaches salaries, whether youre eliminating competition thats affecting adversely the ability of student athletes to study, to do things. I mean, in football, tuesday, wednesday, thursday games, thats kind of silly. I run the risk of biting the hand that feeds me when espn and others are contracting these games but thats their business. Thats how they make money. You know, we got to be able to balance that because it is a big business. We cant we cant ignore that point, but still, its the student athlete benefit that has to be in central focus. Once you do that i think Everything Else<\/a> falls in place. Anybody else . I think, again, the student athlete benefit, which is all of our focus, its hard to make the public believe that but it truly is why we work. Its why we show up every day. And i believe its why alumni continue to have social gatherings around events and give to their Alumni Association<\/a> and keep coming back to sustain. Its why theyre proud of their schools, proud of their teams and proud of the multigeneration effect of this thing we call College Sports<\/a>. But if you dont view the Services Provided<\/a> in addition to the opportunity and just the sheer access to Higher Education<\/a> as a benefit, if thats going to be shrouded in are they paid enough, are they served enough, are they remunerated enough, they have to look at our enterprise and say, what value is it continuing to bring to the institution . And i think right now we continue to have value because we can sustain Leadership Qualities<\/a> in young people. If they do get their degrees while theyre experiencing a competitive sports experience, theyll be a better and more marketable citizen. Theyll be employable. Theyll bring something to the table for a greater good somewhere. But if they come in as a 17yearold expected to work their way through that system, that model of educational leadership, maturity, development, it really skews it from the start. I think we would lose it in spades. I wonder, too, when does the public just say enough is enough . I know the arms race is everything sounds so great here and i agree with you and yet we know salaries are going up and more people are going up. Im sure if anyone is watching us on cspan who is a big fan, nough of that. You know, i want to know how were going to play this week and are we going to fire our coach or we got the big recruit coming . We saw something very interesting that i have been covering quite a bit since september 8. Of course, that was the day that ray rice second elevator video hit and i think sports, as we know it, may be changed forever. I know it sounds very dramatic. And might be over the top but ill just pose this thought. A league worth billions, the National Football<\/a> league, the biggest thing in our country in terms of onesport league, literally buffeted and shaken by twitter, by social media, by ainstream media to the point where the apologies from roger goodell, the changes, the immediate suspension of a man who had already been suspended wait until he gets reinstated by the union, thats another issue, ray rice. Things have really changed. We really saw something remarkable that week, september 8 onward in this country in terms of the way a league had to respond to the people. And so Going Forward<\/a> i dont have an answer here, its more of a question and maybe for some of you who i would normally be interviewing as opposed to being to be joining on a panel. You keep taking my job. Sorry. Im curious, if Something Like<\/a> that what happened, that seminole moment, september 8, with that ray rice video, if, you know, if fans get disgusted, Jameis Winston<\/a> saying, as i alluded to, florida state, six, seven things hes done, its appalling. I wrote a column last week lets switch hats here for a second and say, as not only someone whos a member of the media but as a fan of College Sports<\/a>, i will be shocked if we ever get to the point where people abandon their, you know, their fanaticism for sports because of something, you know, as real and as serious as what youre talking about. Its just not going to happen. No, but will they say im disgusted and say, you know, i dont want to pay athletes, will it become fans saying enough is enough . Will those fans even be listened to because theyre not buying the season tickets or buying the package or watching espn or whatever theyre doing . I guess what im saying, we should have our minds maybe open to anything because i never would have envisioned what happened with the nfl, september 8, 9, 10, 11. Thats all im saying. The nfl situation was such that everything moved so quickly. They didnt have a chance to make up stories. They didnt have a chance to lie because of the transparencies due to the speed. Florida state has plenty of opportunity to lie. Well, they have. You know, were seeing that. It didnt come out as quickly enough. But in the end, christina, i agree with you. There has to be some kind of ground swell of disgust, to put it in the terms that you did, that, you know, the thing that everyone loves, they go saturday or during the week and in basketball, in either genders basketball, all the things they love are getting perverted by other factors out there that arent really the purity of the sport. The problem is i dont think that they know enough. I think theres been so much misinformation, so much perversion and disfiguring of the culture that people think this is the way its supposed to be, this is the way its supposed to operate instead of recognizing, once again, going back to the basics that this is for the student athletes who go out and, you know, they will go out there and demonstrate their skills but in return, you know, theyre getting opportunities to develop into leaders that ultimately will have impact on s as a nation. And not just what the we watch on tv. I dont think people see it enough. You know, i wish selfreform would work. Having been at this a long time, because i think it will be better. Just to give you one scam. University of maryland board of regents, im on the board. We passed something in committee, we wont give a coach an athletic bonus unless he hits the minimum a. P. R. That season. Wow. You know theres not a school in the country that does that, not a program across the country. It means a coach cant flunk his team out and still get hundreds of dollars if not millions of dollars of bonuses. He has to care or she has to care. And that was hard. Thats hard. Why hasnt that been adopted across the country . I see amy out there. That they have been working on it for years. Years ago in the 1990s there were no coaches making a million. Today there are hundreds of coaches making 1 million. Are we going to be back here 20 years . This is what im concerned about. I just wish this thing could clean itself out but its had plenty of opportunities and it hasnt happened. To your point, all these external forces will make it more likely well have a day of reckoning. I do think, though, that coaches have to care based on the standards and academic standards that are ratcheting up and the fact because of a. P. R. And because of g. S. R. , if you arent discerning in recruiting, if you dont get a young lady or man who comes to fit your campus and truly want to be a student in addition to participating, you youre not in a situation where you can just run them off and survive. You go below the a. P. R. , we saw our National Championship<\/a> Basketball Team<\/a> from last year miss the tournament for a year. Well, chris, without enforcement, pure and swift and reasonable enforcement, all that does is promote renegades out there and you got academic fraud. We only see the tip of the iceberg, im sure. I do a lot of games and ive been doing this thing over 25 years in college basketball. You can talk to athletes. You can recognize, you know, whos on the ball, whos not. Who can do college work or whos capable of doing it and whos not. And what happens is and i agree with you that coaches have to care but unless theyre given the incentive to care even more, which means, as tom, you talking about tying someones bonus to a. P. R. , what happened to tying someones bonus to the number of kids who graduate and meaningful with meaningful majors and some of the other things . You know, all that does in many instances a lot of renegades get away with stuff. I think that thats why you need i think it was your idea of getting outside enforcement to make sure that theres a monitor there and a disincentive to do some of those things that will get them around the a. P. R. And the. S. R. Consideration. I would say today, just given the way universities operate, its difficult to fraud the academic system. What i worry about is the recruiting front. On the recruiting side. Whats incentivizing people to go to particular campuses and what yeah and whats keeping them there . And coaches have bosses too. Youve got to hire a coach that fits your campus, that fits the profile of your campus and what the alumni expect athletics to be on your campus. Again, i hate to use texas analogies. Heres no other high profile job at u. T. Than the football coach. And coach strong made some tough decisions. There are 10 young men no longer in uniform. Ow, our fans could be, you know, put off by that but he had five basic rules to follow and if you cant follow those five rules you cant play for texas. Our fans, i think, right now admire what hes done. He cares about the character of these young people. He said its a privilege to play here. As long as you follow these rules, you can represent our institution. Those young men will be better. If they go to the nfl i hope were sending young men of character to the nfl where when they are paid and compensated for their gifts and their skills, theyll still be a good citizen and a heck of a player in the nfl. Ok, heres the you got to continue to stand by that. There are some universities that wont stand by it, you know, the value, the balance will now go the other way. You havent won enough games. I dont care how moral you are, you know, were in the business of winning Football Games<\/a>. Thats exactly right. I believe thats where texas is and we got a mens a. D. Who is 64 and can post you guys up too. Ok. Because in the end, look, this is these are games which are about winning. And i think unfortunately what weve seen historically that winning component of this is much more important or certainly equally as important as the idea that youre shaping an individual and helping contribute to society. And thats the unfortunate part of it. Thats the imbalance, i think. I mean, when do we whats the break i think the point is to your point, whats the breaking point to College Athletics<\/a> . When do we get to the point of such outrage enough is enough . Is it possible could you imagine getting there . Yeah, go ahead. Thats pretty depressing but a lot of this is. At the risk of sounding like the eternal optimist, i kind of look at the issues facing us in our indviroilingtt right now and put the issues in front of congress. It seems like we reached a point of impasse on almost all social issues. And the greatest country that has ever been and were struggling with solving some of these issues that which front us. At the same time, i would like to look back at the last few decades in college another letics. I think back to a time i was watching 60 minutes with my dad and there was this exposea on College Athletics<\/a> and johnny cant read and this and that. And thats when you only had to be enrolled in six hours a semester. Since that time we have progress towards graduation, the 20 hour rule which we can spend the next three days talking about as well. When i entered into coaching business, it was not atypical to have a practice of three hours and 40 muns. That rarely happens today. These students have so much academic support on most of our campuses. There are a lot of good things going on. And my point is this, weve addressed a lot of those issues. So now this is the issue of our ime. And we need help. We need help to get this solved. You have to be an optimist to be in education. I believe we have find this answer and we will solve this problem. Its daunting right now but discussions like this are the beginning of where we will end up. And there is a right answer that well get to. And there is a right answer out there that well get to. Its intriguing to think about an outside entity moving into become the power base. Whether its a commissioner or whatever the model looks like, because i never really thought gave that a lot of thought but i posted this classroom of ph. D. And master students all the time as we go through the business of division i College Athletics<\/a>, where does the power lie . Whos got the power . Whos got the power . Whos got the power . So at one point several decades ago in order to wrangle the competing institutions, they established a central governing body and created sort of a czar, an executive director who failed miss rabblely and ousted shortly because miserabley and ousted shortly because people thought they were being selectively enforced as opposed to a general nonpartisan entity that works for the welfare on theme student athlete, citizenry, benefit and graduation and all those kinds of things where you have that is the sole theme of whatever this thirdparty entity could be to manage the enforcement process and anything else, for that matter, because the rules are made and passed and fail and passed so many times because of student athlete wellbeing, yes, but also because of competitive interests. And when you look at that in the bigger picture, to manage something as critical as enforcement and feel confident at Arizona State<\/a> or u. S. C. Or the university of texas, university of kansas or northwestern or all of these schools, maryland, the schools that were talking about, you just want to feel confident that whats being enforced in baltimore is also being enforced in spokane. And game on. If those are the rules, play by the rules and enforce the rules in a nonpartisan capacity and create the rules, not based on the competitive nature of you getting an edge, n. L. A. , and im not getting the same benefit because im in manhattan, kansas, and lets not do that. Unfortunately, trying to butt heads with unlike institutions, but if you went to a fair or nonpartisan entity that was managing enforcement for the ncaa that members could actually trust, then i believe the members would be onboard. They just want to know whats happening on one side of the country is the same thing thats happening with diligence on the other side of the country. And equitabley applied. I think equitably applied. And the whole raising the issue of thirdparty enforcement, chris, i think you brought up the enforcement thing, leads down a path of potential health but also maybe being able to answer the question of wheres the power lie, because its too azy. Its just too hazy. Is oversight of that at that level, you know, that type of scrutiny, is that really possible . Do you think it could be effective . Because youd really need to watch so carefully and so closely. You got a membership whether it was whether its within the ncaa right now or a third party that were talking about in this Panel Discussion<\/a>, you have a membership thats hungry for fairness and application. You have a membership thats starving for fairness in application. Theyre ready from one school to the other to know that what goes on in one city and one college town is going on in another college town. And theyre anxious for that to happen, so i actually think that membership, given the right setup, would embrace the concept of nonpartisan, fair enforcement body that conducted business on theme for the benefit of student athletes health, wellbeing and graduation. I was just going to say to support that position, theres so much with regard to selfreporting thats out there. Thats right. And so institutions, if the administration sees that the Athletic Department<\/a> has done something, you know, theyre going to selfreport. Now its up to this third party to go in and really find out exactly whats going on, because theres no theres no third party. Theres no security thats going to be able to find every single infraction. Theyre not going to be able to snoop through every division i through iii university and find out. So it has to be motivated by the idea of doing the right thing instead of trying to do things right, per se. But once it happens, you know, right now without subpoena power and without some of the other powers that are going to be able to dig deeper through that superficial layer of evidence and get to the truth, youre not going to be able to find anything and thats the biggest problem. I think a third party can certainly handle that. So everybody was worried about what was autonomy going to be mean for these five conferences. What we want is still the big ten. We want to be able to do as much as our resource also reasonably allow us to do for Student Athlete Experience<\/a> and enhancement, period, and keep the educational model, too. We want to keep the big ten under our governing body. Its called the ncaa today. I want to be able to play texas state in softball and softball if it so choses and thats what made our ncaa basketball tournament so appealing that princeton might beat georgeton. But the thing that were concerned about is how we anage our enforcement. You know, aside from using our resources to expand Financial Aid<\/a> for student athletes and services, really, hashoring in the gut of all harboring in the gut of all of this is how we enforce this compliance issue. We dont have the answers yet but we better get there sortly before january. We are quickly closing in on the end of the discussion here, so what im going to do is ask you each to close by giving me your thoughts on the following question. Not what would you like to see happen, but where are we heading in terms of the situation that weve been discussing, the student athlete ompensation . Whats the trajectory taking us towards . I will start on the far end. I want to start by saying somewhere in the middle. Maybe thats an easy place to be. Tom started by talking about if we were to break the whole model apart and start over we wouldnt be where we are today. Well, weve evolved to this point over 100 years and theres a lot of reasons for that and we cant unwind that as quickly as wed like to. But i do believe using the term that was used earlier, there will be equities that will be distributed about. I dont think the Term Employee<\/a> tastes right in the world of amateurism and College Athletics<\/a>. I would close my part by saying, regardless of what we all do and wherever we all get in this, and i am an optimist, no one will stop johnny and suzy from playing basketball and swimming and diving and sprinting and playing tennis, whatever else they do. I believe in the pure essence of sport in america and were not going to keep our young boys and girls and young men and women from being the best they can be. I just look at this panel and i think about the how College Athletics<\/a> has inspired and assisted every one of us. I believe that the people you see on this panel are the products are a very good environment. We need to hold on to the good notions in that environment. We need to improve it, and we need to deal with it in a modern business sense. And i believe that theres enough intellectual firepower on our campuses and leadership that we can do it with some assistance from greater minds as well. Thank you. Change is coming, you can count on that. Just give you one point. Clay kristenson says 50 of our colleges, universities wont be here in 15 years from now. So what are we going to do . What we need is someone in charge of College Sports<\/a> thats going to be working in our true National Interest<\/a>, promoting the things that are truly important to america competition, gender equity, academics, minor sports and most of all being in sync with our institutions of Higher Learning<\/a> which are the most important assets in this country today. Lisa. Well be in a healthier place. The hard questions were dealing with right now and if the catalyst of those questions are heightened Television Revenues<\/a> and multimilliondollar coaching contracts, so be it. It may be an uncomfortable surf for a while to ride, but i hink ultimately the tenants of the american model of athletics will survive and be stronger. I dont exactly know how well come to that point but i think whats happening right now is college for a healthier environment and i think there are good questions being asked right now. Len. Well, let me throw a dose of pessimism in. Unfortunately i see us without having some of the solutions that we talked about, stronger independent body thats impervious to the death by 1,000 cuts of litigation, etc. , without the antitrust kind of shield that well have, that we certainly should have. 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