Transcripts For CSPAN Education Secretary Nominee Betsy DeVos Testifies At Confirmation Hearing 20170118

South carolina governor tim scott. The hearing of the Pensions Committee will come to order to consider the nomination of betsy devos to be United States secretary of education. Openingmake an statement to introduce the nominee. We welcome senator scott and senator lieberman. He will make introductory remarks. Following the nominees comments, we will have a fiveminute round of questions. One note, we have capital will removeay who anyone who attempts to disrupt the hearing. This is the First Committee in our new congress. It has considerable differences of opinion on a variety of issues. We have found that we can sometimes resolve them in important ways. What was thee past most important bill in the congress, 21st century cures. The year before, no child left behind, which president obama called a christmas miracle, plus 33 other bills signed by the president. I want to thank senator murray and republicans on the committee for operating in that fashion. We have done that by showing courtesy to ourselves and our witnesses. My opening remarks, i would like to make a word about process. More than 25 years ago, ms. Devos, i was sitting with you are sitting. The former senators said to me, well, governor, i have heard disturbing things about you, but i will not bring them up here. The senator from kansas said, howard, i think you just did. With that, he put a secret hold on me. You will not have to go through that because we abolished secret holds. We will apply the golden rule, the one that comes from the book of matthew, which applies the same procedures to you that we fourin 2001 and 2005 george w. Bush is secretary nominees bushs secretary nominees. And 2009 and 2016 for president nominees. Cretary we will consider you and then vote just as we did them. Obamas secretary, he was confirmed a week later. We receive from ms. Devos, since january 4, the committees required forms. The rules require them to be in more than a week in advance. The fbi background check is been done and we have heard the results. The form has provided of government ethics with all the relevant information about her financial affairs. We will have a letter from that office on which will be an agreement between ms. Debose and that office on how to deal with any conflicts of interest before we vote in committee on her nomination. As for questions, ms. Debose has met with each of us in our offices. Several of us have written questions already given to her. Today, we will each have five minutes for further questions. I am applying the golden rule. One round of fiveminute questions. For both of case president obamas educational nominees. Cases, following the fiveminute round, the chairman and one member ask additional questions, and we will do that again as we have done before. I will ask questions and i will ask senator murray if she would like to do the same. Each of us will have a chance to ask additional questions in a bysonable number in writing the close of business thursday at 5 00 p. M. Then we will meet in an executive session next tuesday nomination ms. Devos finalher business if the ethics letters are received before tuesday. Following my opening remarks, senator murray will make hers. And then we will hear from senator scott and senator lieberman. And then we will hear from mrs. Devos. Betsy devos is on our childrens side. She has devoted her life to helping low income children to have better choices of schools. Most of the criticism amounts to three things number one, she supports public Charter Schools. Two, she supports getting lower income children lower income childrens parents more choices for schools. Here, she has used expertise in this pursuit. Lets take the idea of Charter Schools. They are Public Schools with fewer government rules, fewer union rules. Teachers have more freedom to teach and parents have more freedom to choose the school that best suits their child. Nothing new about it. 1991 and 1992, president gw bush proposed start from scratch schools, which he called new american schools and raised 77 million for their Development Corporation to encourage innovative ideas. January, i wrote every superintendent in the country and i asked them to try something that was invented in minnesota by the democratic farmer labour party, something called Charter Schools. There were 12 of them then. Since then, there has been support for the idea. In 1977, president clinton said, we need 1997, president clinton said we need more support for Charter Schools. President george h. W. Bush supported Charter Schools. President obama supports Charter Schools. Arne duncan describes himself as a strong supporter of Charter Schools. The current education secretary founded a Charter School. 1994, 20 15, always bipartisan usually by huge margins, supported Charter Schools. 43 states in the District Of Columbia operate Charter Schools. So, over nearly 30 years, those 12 democratic farmer labor Charter Schools in minnesota have grown to 6800 public Charter Schools. 6 of americas Public School students attend them. There . In the mainstream bush, last seven education secretaries, u. S. Congress, district of colombia, betsy devos, or her critics . Obviously, she is on the side of our children. Childrensincome parents more choices. The objection is public money should not follow poor children then accredited school of parents choice. Arguing against that is argued against the most successful social policy this congress has ever enacted. Bill for veterans with appropriate federal dollars to follow veterans to the school of their choice. University of tennessee, any accredited institution. It produced the greatest generation. It produced a model for all of our federal aid for colleges. Grants areof pell in vouchers. They followed the student to the school of their choice. Nearly 1 billion in new Student Loans followed the student to the school of their choice. Why is a great idea for College Students deemed to be such a dangerous idea for k12 students . Many of us believe competition produces the best colleges, and might produce the best schools. Ed a poorlars suggest kids bill of rights. Today, 50 states provide parents more choices of Public Schools. School other than a school of their resident. 34 states within their district 400,000 children are served by 50 private School Choice programs across 25 states. Passed bipartisan d. C. Lation creating the School Voucher program in 2003 helping 6100 children. 1000 children standing in line waiting for that opportunity. There has been growing support since the g. I. Bill for kids was proposed. Contracts colleges for low income students. 45 senator supported scholarships for kids. Senators states thought it was a good idea. Publicng to the 2013 opinion survey, 73 of americans support School Choice. 64 say if given the financial opportunity, they would sit on our all they would send one or all of their children to a different school. So who is in the mainstream here . President elect, 25 states, congress, and the d. C. Voucher program, 45 u. S. Senators in 2015, 70 3 of americans 73 of americans, betsy devos . Fairly, betsy devos apparently betsy devos. I think she deserves credit, not criticism. Or ifhe critics be happy she spent her time and money trying to deny children more choices of schools that wealthy families are ready have . We are fortunate that betsy devos is a nominee u. S. Nomineey president for u. S. Secretary. I support her confirmation and look for to working with her. Senator murray. Thank you very much, chairman. I support working with you and all of our colleagues and congress and want to Welcome New Members on our committee. Thank you ms. Debose for joining us ms. Devos for joining us. This is the first of many hearings that we will be holding a president elect trumps nominees to fill critical positions in the federal government. So, i want to start by reiterating the importance of the senates role in this process. And this committees role in this senate. President trump has the right to fill his cabinet with people that he thinks will fill the vision for our country. But that does not mean that the senate should be a rubber stamp. To the contrary, we owe it to the people we represent to make sure that every nominee is not only qualified, and free of conflicts of interest, but he or she will put families and workers first. And not millionaires, billionaires, or big corporations. President elect trump was the first residents of candidate in decades to not release his tax is , and he some people say this means the bar has been lowered for ethics and public service. I refuse to accept that and im going to continue to hold the Incoming Administration to the highest ethical standard. This is what the American People deserve, regardless of who they voted for, where their tax dollars are going, and who is benefiting. In aneve that administration word lies are likely to be blurred at the top, they need to be even clearer at the individual agencies. Congress workin to ensure the highest ethical standards are maintained, and there is accountability to taxpayers from the top of the government come all the way down. I am going to continue pushing for robust scrutiny of every nominee, and i appreciate ms. Voss said to me she knows the importance of transparency and openness, and is committed to addressing every ethical concern to make sure that no corners are cut, and that she would go to Great Lengths to make sure no corners are cut. However, i am extremely disappointed that we are moving forward with this hearing before proceeding the proper paperwork from the office of government ethics. When president obama enters the white house, republicans insisted on having an ethics letter in hand before moving to a hearing. In fact, mcconnell wrote a letter making that explicit review, and time to an fbi background check before a hearing was held. So, i am extremely concerned, and i can only hope that cutting corners in rushing nominees through will not be the new norm. We are here today to hear from president elect Trump Nominee to be the department of education to lead the department of education. As well as a mom who got her fighting for Public Investment in early learning, i take this issue very seriously. I owe everything i have two that i wasic schools able to attend with my six brothers and sisters, and none of us in my family would have been able to go to college were it not for robust federal support. We had a those opportunities because our government was committed to investing in us, but i know that is not the case for every student and community today. Although we have a long way to go, i am committed to making sure the federal government is a Strong Partner to our Public Schools districts and states, that every student has access to a high quality Public Education that allows them to succeed, and we focus our federal policies and investments on strengthening Public Schools for all students. And certainly not towards diverting taxpayer dollars to spend vouchers that do not work for unaccountable private schools. That is why i was so proud to work with chairman alexander in so many others here today to pass every student succeed act which gives flexibility to states and districts, but also includes strong accountability for our schools come and reiterates our nations commitment to strengthening Public Education, especially for our most honorable students and communities. This community this commitment goes beyond k12 because the federal government, in general, and the department of education specifically, has an Important Role to play in supporting, protecting, and investing in all of our students , from our youngest learners, to those in Higher Education. And adults and is looking to improve their skills. Leading this agency is a big job and an important job. I consider it to be my job to do everything i can to make sure whoever fills it, is truly committed to putting students and families first. So ms. Devos, i am looking for to hearing your answers to my questions. First, i will want to learn more about your extensive financial entanglements and attention conflicts and of interests. Do you need to make it very clear how you will be avoiding conflicts of interests should you be confirmed . That goes for your investment and the massive web of investments made by your media family. Wronge starting off, track by not having an ethics letter complete before this hearing, i appreciate what you are doing to provide this committee the information to understand how you intend to live up to the highest level of ethics and transparency. So far, you have not accepted calls to release three years of tax returns, but i hope you reconsider that approach, and that you are cooperating fully with the office of government ethics. Second, i have Major Concerns about how you spend your career and fortune fighting to privatize Public Education, and get investments in Public Schools. Some specific questions about how the privatization policies you have pushed have impacted students, and how you intend to use the public trust and taxpayer dollars to support Public Education, and not continue to undermine schools and teachers from inside the department as you have as an advocate from the outside. I will want to learn more about the large contribution to have me to groups that are ideologically opposed to workers, including teachers, and want to impose antilgbt, or antiWomens Health on Public Schools and the students in them. I will want to make sure you publicly commit to implementing our every School Every Student succeed act. Willl want to know how you proceed with the achievement gap. Are not clearnts in a number of areas. I want to know how you plan to approach Higher Education and whether or not can count on you to stand with students and borrowers. I am interested in your thoughts on title ix and how we can do Everything Possible title 9, and how we can do Everything Possible to stop campus assault. I was not happy about how you talked about this issue when we met, and are prepared to address it seriously. I will want to know how your personal religious and ideological views on Womens Health and safety will impact on how you approach this issue in the department. I am very concerned about what is been reported in the press on your views on the office of civil rights, which works to ensure students with disabilities, lgbtq students, minority students, women of culler, and all of our students are treated with dignity and respect. I will want to know more about how you will enforce critical civil rights laws. I have a particular passion for early learning. I want to do you stand on how the federal government can help ensure every child is prepared for success in kindergarten. Those are just a few of the issues, so i am looking forward to a robust dialogue tonight, and i am hoping your transparent about your views and open about your record and willing to make some straightforward commitments regarding the core responsibilities of the department and the role you hope to take in that. I will be asking you to commit to commit providing this committee with Additional Information and responses to all reasonable followup questions as quickly as possible. I am hopeful that this can be a smooth process. Mr. Chairman, i know my members are here tonight and are hoping are more than just five minutes of questions, and i hope that you will consider doing that. Thank you, senator murray. I will follow the golden rule that wechange the rules did not apply to president obamas nominees are president bushs nominees. So we will have a fiveminute round of questions. You and i can ask questions after that for another five minutes. That is exactly what we have done before. Members of this committee has met with mrs. Devos and some have asked it in questions. She will need to answer them before we vote. As far as tax returns are concerned, if you will like to bring that up, we can bring that up at our next session which will be the 24th. Ethics given the government ethics letter is completed by friday. Tax returns are required to be reported by president ial nominees. We did not require that a president obamas two nominees for education. If we want to change the rules, we can do that, but i am not in favor of tending the rules in the middle of the process. Mr. Chairman, i would like a point of order. I believe we got a second round with the john king hearings. I asked two rounds of questions in that case. You did and i did. Two nominees,t mr. Duncan and mr. Kaine, we had a fiveminute round, and in the chairman and one senator, one other senator asked five minutes of questions. I will ask five minutes of questions and i will give it to senator murray the opportunity to be the other senator who does that. But nobody asked for additional time at that point, members that we hear questions. The request, but i am not going to change the rules and the middle of the game. That is the precedent we have followed as far back when i was the education secretary. Again, i was not aware that there was a precedent. It is a clear precedent as i can think of. 36i would like to have letter signed by 3300 organizations expressing concern and placed in the record. There will be. We welcome the nominee mist of those we welcome the nominee ms. Devos and your daughter and soninlaw. Ms. Devos will be introduced first. She will be introduced by senator Joe Lieberman who served 24 years are connecticut until he retired in january 2013. Thank you both for joining us. I have already said what i have to say about mrs. Devos. I think she would be an excellent secretary of education. We should move ahead to senator scotts introduction. Then we will turn it over to senator lieberman. Then we will hear from mrs. Devos. Senator scott. Thank you, chairman. I am surprised about the number of folks to show up to hear senator liebermans introduction. Very well done, senator lieberman. I have known the devos family for three decades. I started learning how to spell in college and it was a part of one of the devos companies. I am very thankful that a champion of Public Education, and an of education champion of education for poor kids six to my left. I recall my own upbringing as a poor kid. By the time i was in fourth grade, i attended four different schools. It is important to recognize a powerful impact that education has on poor kids. I am excited about this transition and looking for to the opportunity to have betsy devos as our champion for all children for all education, but specifically what i call high potential kids. For the last 28 years, she has been a champion for those kids. A lifelong resident of michigan, she attended Calvin College in grand rapids. She is a businesswoman and entrepreneur. She is a chairman of the American Federation for children. For those of you who may not know her, she had a humble beginning. Her parents mortgaged everything they had to start a small autoparts business. She still remembers when she was seven years old, helping her in father paint a cinderblock building that became the office of the First Manufacturing location. I believe the color was steel blue. During the summer months in college, betsy worked the third shift at her familys business. She understands the sacrifices that families have to make in order to build a better life for themselves and for their children. She has successfully advocated for expansion of education opportunity in dozens of states. She also helped her husband launch a Charter School in grand rapids, michigan, which is now one of the highest performing Charter Schools in our home state. I have been to that school, way before there was any idea that she might one day sit here before this committee. Way before we assumed there could be a trump candidacy. Several years ago, i visited the Aviation High School and had a chance to sit at lunch and talk with the kids. Understand and appreciate their hunger for education was stirred by the devos family, their commitment to Public Education at this charter high school. She is motivated by making sure students go to safe and highperforming schools, whether they are public, private, charter, traditional or nontraditional schools. She understands the need to focus on accountability. Not just to have a system in place, but to actually hold schools accountable for the results they have. What she supports is holding all schools accountable, whether they are traditional Public Schools or Charter Schools. Bless you. Mrs. Devos is clearly not opposed to accountability. What she is opposed to is holding some schools accountable but not all schools. To ishe is opposed leaving children trapped in schools that we know, we know are failing. Failing the very students that will have no hope if they do not receive a high quality education. Bless you. Only one more left. Parents and students cannot ask for a better role model or a more thoughtful leader to move the Education System into the 21st century. Betsy cares, she questions, she considers. Then, and only then, will she act. These are the traits of a leader and a doer. I look forward to supporting her nomination throughout the next few weeks. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Chairman alexander thank you, senator. Senator scott. Senator lieberman, welcome. Sen. Lieberman a special hello to chris murray, my friend and successor from connecticut. It is great to be back in the senate today to introduce betsy devos for your consideration as the next secretary of education. I met betsy several years ago in one of the many bipartisan efforts to improve the quality of education of americas children that she and so many others of you have been involved in. When i left the senate, as a way to continue my own work in education reform, i became a member of the board of American Federation for children, the Nonprofit Organization that betsy devos founded to provide better education options for lower income children throughout america. Im very proud of what the afc has achieved, particularly at the state level. More than 400,000 lower income families have been empowered with Financial Support to take their children out of schools where they thought the kids were not getting an adequate education and put them into schools that they thought were better. For me, as a democrat, it is especially gratifying that many of these afc state programs have been enacted with bipartisan support in state legislatures. None of the progress by which the afc has achieved, very specifically for those 400,000 kids, would have occurred without betsys leadership which is inclusive. She is disciplined, organized, knows how to set goals and develop practical plans to achieve them. She is really a Purpose Driven Team builder. I have seen that in my membership of the board of the afc. I understand the department of education is bigger than anything she, or for that matter, most any of us has ever led. Everything i have seen tells me that betsy is ready to take on this assignment and do it very well. I know that some people are questioning her qualifications to be secretary of education. Too many of those questions seem to be based on the fact she does not come from within the education establishment. But, honestly, i believe that today, that is one of the most important qualifications you can have for this job. She has many others. She is a mother, grandmother. She cares about children more generally and has been involved in education, like so many parents and local Citizens School Board Members across america, for almost 30 years. Her involvement has not only been as a philanthropist and advocate for reform, though she has been a real leader in both. She also mentors students in the Public Schools of grand rapids, michigan. Another important qualification i think she has for this job. She will ask the right questions. Such as, is this federal Education Program working . Is it giving our kids the education they need to live productive and satisfying lives . If not, how could we improve it . An examination of the facts of the state of American Education today makes clear that although federal Education Programs are working for many of our children, they are failing millions of others. Here a few of the salient and troubling facts. Among all students of all income groups, less than 40 of High School Graduates are college or career ready, according to the act. A recent report said only 35 of eighth graders were proficient on the naet reading exam and only 34 on the math exam. In other words, only about two thirds of eighth graders in our country are not proficient in reading in math. That is the middle ranking. Theg lowincome students, way the shortcomings in the ancient Educational Status quo falls, false disproportionately heavily. Too many ways to illustrate this, but let me give this one example. There are more than 1200 high schools in america who have more than 1. 1 Million Students that failed to graduate from high school at least one third of their students. Some, as many as more than half the students dont make it to graduation. These schools primarily educate lowincome students and students of color. These low Graduation Rate high schools are located in both urban and rural areas. They are in almost every state. New york has 199 of them. Georgia, 115. California, 105. Alabama and mississippi, more than 50 each. These are jarring numbers and i think they cry out for National Education reform. We are just not keeping our founders promise of equal opportunity. We are not preparing the next generation of americans to enable our economy to compete successfully in the world. We cannot accept the status quo in education anymore. We need to change our education reform. We need an education reform and to be education secretary. A leader that has one big goal every childo give in america, regardless of Family Income or zip code a firstclass , education. That is exactly the kind of education secretary i believe betsy devos can and will be. Because betsy has been fighting for reform and disrupting the status quo for so long, her nomination is naturally controversial. After all, she has directly challenged the education establishment by supporting Charter Schools and other programs. I can tell you in all my work with her, i have never heard betsy speak against our Public School system. I have heard her ask what we can do for the low income kids trapped in bad Public Schools. Until we can make more of her our Public Schools as good as they should be. Is it fair to stand back and not help the parents who want better for their children, but cannot get it because they cannot afford it . Is it acceptable to have so me many children from all income groups graduate from our high schools unprepared for college and the hightech economy they will enter . No, it is not. Thats why mr. Chairman, senator murray, members of the committee, i hope you will confirm betsy devos nomination. I think it is in our National Interest to give her a chance to change the status quo in our schools and secure a Better Future for our country and all of our children. Thank you very much. Chairman alexander thank you, senator lieberman. Thank you for coming back. Before i introduce or welcome mrs. Devos, i would like to enter 97 letters of support for mrs. Devos as education secretary from a variety of groups. Format education secretaries, governors, business groups, and others. Mrs. Devos . Mrs. Devos thank you, chairman. Chairman alexander, Ranking Member murray, senators, thank you for the opportunity to be with you. Thank you, senator scott and senator lieberman, for those very kind words of introduction. I honor and applaud your lifelong dedication to the success of our nations students, and your fine public service. I want to begin by thanking my family for their support. Many of them seated behind me here, except for my five grandchildren. The oldest is five so it was not advisable they joined us. Im honored president elect trump has asked me to join his team and i am grateful for his dedication to education. I look forward to working with him, Vice President elect pence, and all of you to bring Educational Opportunity to every family. While we may have differences, i think we can all agree that learning is a lifelong pursuit and a fundamental american virtue. We are blessed beyond measure with educators for themselves and to students that pour themselves into students. The schools in which they work are as diverse as the students they educate. In fact, all of us here and our children have attended a mix of publicly funded and private schools. This is a reflection of the diversity that is todays Public Education. Growing up in michigan, i attended local Christian Schools and then Calvin College. My greatest influence was a Public School teacher named elsa prince. To this day, i just called her mom. When dick and i became parents, education took on a whole new meaning. We understood that other parents could not make similar decisions on their childs education based on their income or zip code. When our oldest reached school age, we went to a Christian School that serves many low income families. We saw the struggles and sacrifices many of these families face when trying to choose the best educational option for their children. For me, this was not just an issue of public policy, but of national injustice. I committed to do something about it, and it has become my lifes work. I applaud the great work of the potter house and the cofounder that is with us today. He and his team are doing a great job. But here is the sad reality. In the past 28 years, the need and demand for these other options have grown unabated. I share president elect trumps views to change it to what parents want and deserve. Payments do not believe a onesizefitsall model of learning fits the need of every child and a no other options exist. Whether it is magnet, virtual, charter, home, or any other combination. Yet, too many parents are denied access to the options, choices many of us have exercised for our own children. Why in 2017 are we still questioning parents ability to exercise as you educational choice for their children . Im a Firm Believer that parents should be empowered to choose the best learning environment for each of their individual children. The vast majority of students will continue to attend Public Schools. If confirmed, i will be a strong advocate for great Public Schools. If a school is troubled or unsafe or not a good fit, perhaps they have a special need that is going unmet, we should support a parents right to enroll their child in a highquality alternative. It is pretty simple. Every child in america deserves to be in a safe environment that is free from discrimination. Every student in america dreams of developing his or hers unique talents and gifts. Every parent dreams of a future where their children has access to schools with a safe environment that successfully prepares them for a brighter, more hopeful tomorrow. Every teacher in america dreams of breaking free from standardization so that they can deploy their unique creativity. Our nations schools are filled with talented and devoted professionals who meet the needs of many, many children. Even our best schools do not work for all. This is not the fault of teachers, but a reality that all students are unique, learn differently, and excel at their own pace. Students also face new challenges today. And particular, our High School Graduates are having increasing difficulty accessing affordable Higher Education. Escalating tuition is pricing aspiring students out of college. Others are burdened with debts that will take years or decades to pay off. There is no magic wand to make the debt go away, but we do need to take action. It would be a mistake to shift that burden to struggling taxpayers, without first addressing why tuition has gotten so high. For starters, we need to embrace new pathways of learning. For too long, a College Degree has been punished as the only avenue for a better life. The old and expensive brick mortar and ivy model is not the only one that will lead to a prosperous future. Craftsmanship is not a fallback, but a noble pursuit. Students should make informed choices about what type of education they want to pursue posthigh school, and have access to highquality options. President elect trump and i agree we need to support all post secondary avenues, including trade and vocational schools and community colleges. Of course, on every one of these issues, congress will play a vital role. If confirmed, i look forward to working with you to finding solutions that empower parents and students, provide high quality options, and spend tax dollars wisely. We will Work Together to ensure the every Student Succeeds act isnt implement it as congress intended isnt limited as congress intended. I look forward to working with congress and all stakeholders to reauthorize the Higher Education act to meet the needs of todays College Students. President elect trump and i know that it will not be washington, d. C. That unlocks our nations potential, nor a bigger bureaucracy or a federal agency. The answer is local control and listening to parents, students, and teachers. For nearly three decades, i have been involved in education, as a volunteer, and advocate for children, and as a voice for parents. I have worked as an in School Mentor for students in grand rapids Public Schools, and have had the privilege of interacting with students and their families and teachers in ways that have changed my life and my perspective about education forever. I have worked with governors, legislators, and business and Community Leaders to expand Educational Opportunities through options that are making a lifetime of difference for hundreds of thousands of kids this year alone. I have worked with many dedicated teachers who strive every day to help students achieve, fulfill their potential, and prepare them for the global challenges they will face. For me, it is simple. I trust parents and i believe in our children. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. I look forward to answering your questions. Chairman alexander thank you, mrs. Devos. We will begin our round of fiveminute questions. I will defer mine until later. We will begin with senator enzi, and then to senator murray. Sen. Enzi i want to welcome you here and thank you for being willing to take on this kind of a project and to appear before us. I look forward to working with you as we consider your nomination and after that. You are going to beginning dealing with a Great Variety of states from high population to low population. I happen to come from the lowest population state. It has some special challenges in education, rural and frontier challenges. We dont allow a child to travel more than an hour by bus to work from school. As a result, we have some schools that have one or two students. It is a little different situation than was even envisioned with no child left behind, so i am glad we changed to essa. There was a 2017 report, and i am pleased that wyoming was right number seven of the 50 states. In the area of financing education, we were number one. That comes at a time when our state was going through economical suffering because of obamas war on coal and fossil fuels, and the hardworking families that support those industries. But rural frontier has special problems. Part of them are the submission of some of the applications and some of the applicable reports have no bearing on what we are doing, and that is important when we have the rural aspect as well as the wind river indian reservation, which is the home of two tribes. When every Student Succeeds, their provisions to reduce the departments workforce, with the return of Educational Authority to the state and a limitation federal programs, its important that that workforce the reduced to ensure that more educational funding is provided to the schools and not kept in washington. Also, im troubled by the Government Accountability Office Report that was issued at my request last november that showed the cost projections for the income driven College Loan Repayment program are tens of billions of dollars higher than the original estimates. Those estimates were based on data and accounting methods or were deeply flawed. You will inherit that. There was the omission of key information. As an accountant, i was appalled. And then there was the career and Technical Education that you mentioned. I appreciate your emphasis on the value of craftsmanship and technology. I just saw the movie Hidden Figures that introduced people to computers and the value of women in the workplace to get cash in nasa, women in the workplace in nasa, to get them in the space. I have 1 6 of my schools that do not participate in perkins career Technical Education funding, because the low population gives them such a low amount of funding that it is not worth doing it, and that needs to change. Ms. Devos, one of the most important jobs you will have is the implementation of every Student Succeeds act. I am pleased with what you said about it. Can you talk about your plans to engage rural and frontier state communities in that process . Ms. Devos thank you for that question. I, too, enjoyed that meeting in your office. I particularly enjoyed hearing about the special needs of schools like the school that has the grizzly bear fence surrounding it. I think that is a unique need to wyoming, certainly. Certainly, rural schools and rural settings require different approaches in different options. I refer to the every Student Succeeds act, and i think the implementation of that and wyomings plan for that will be particularly important to recognize the unique needs of the rural population that you have as well as many of the other states represented here in the committee. When we think about the future, i think about the opportunity for more choices and options for those parents at a Distance Learning type of a situation, and the possibility that course choices or online courses could be offered in ways that they may not have been previously. If confirmed, i would look forward to working with you and some of your other colleagues that face the same types of challenges such as senator collins and senator murkowski. I would work with you to address specific needs of Rural Communities and high rural population states. Sen. Enzi thank you, i look forward to working with you. Chairman alexander senator murray . Sen. Murray mr. Chairman, its your committee. Chairman alexander thank you for the courtesy. I will go later. Thank you. Sen. Murray ms. Devos, i am troubled about some of the things you said about Public Education and how you see the role of the department you have been nominated to lead. My first question for you is yes or no. Do you believe that the mission of the department of education should be to strengthen Public Education for all of our students . Ms. Devos yes, i do. Sen. Murray can you commit that you will not work to privatize Public Schools are cut a single penny for Public Education . Ms. Devos senator, thanks for that question. I look forward to working with you to talk about how to address the needs of all parents and all students, and we acknowledged today that not all schools are working for the students that are assigned to them. I am hopeful we can Work Together to find Common Ground in ways we can solve those issues and empower parents to make choices on behalf of their children that are right for them. Sen. Murray i take that is not being willing to commit to not privatize Public Schools. Or cutting money from education. Ms. Devos i guess i would not characterize it in that way. Sen. Murray well, ok. Let me ask you about conflict of interest. President elect trump says he his financial conflict by having his family manage his interest when he is in office. Do you think it is ok for Family Members to profit off of Companies Directly impacted by decisions you will make it confirmed . Ms. Devos no, i do not. Sen. Murray we know from press reports that you and your family have invested in the education industry, including investments in a student Loan Refinancing company and k12 inc. , a chain of for profit online Charter Schools. You told the committee you would sever ties with those firms, and you also said he would intend to return to the businesses when you leave public service. How is that different from president elect trumps arrangement . Ms. Devos senator, first of all, let me be very clear about any conflicts. Where conflicts are identified, they will be resolved. I will not be conflicted, period. I commit that to you well. You all. With respect to the ones you cited, one of the ones we were aware of as we entered the process, that is in the process of being domestic. If there are any others that are identified, they will be appropriately divested as well. Sen. Murray from your answer, i assume that your and your family intend to forego all investments in Education Companies from now on . Ms. Devos anything deemed to be a conflict will not be part of our investing. Sen. Murray how do you intend to convince this committee that no entity will feel pressured to purchase, partner, or contract with corporate or nonprofit entities you and your family invested in, should you be confirmed as secretary . Ms. Devos i can commit to you that nobody will feel any pressure like that. Sen. Murray as you know, this committee has not received your required paperwork on the office of government ethics, and they have told me they cannot provide me assurance right now that your conflicts of interest have been identified and resolved by the office. Again, will you be providing this committee with three years of tax returns . Ms. Devos senator, i have provided the committee with everything that has been requested and required of the committee, and i am frankly very proud of the team that has been working on my behalf to get all this together, and i know that the oge is working very hard to work through my and others confirmation processes as well, as is the department. I am helpful we will get this resolved. Senator murray since we do not have your ethics paperwork tonight, we have not had a chance to look at it or know whether we have additional questions, so would you commit to coming back to this committee once we have that from the oge . Ms. Devos i commit to making sure we have an ethics agreement resolved and reached. Sen. Murray i hope we have a chance, mr. Chairman, if we have questions, to be able to follow up on that. I just have a few seconds left. You have influenced the political system to elect candidates who support your ideological agenda. If you are confirmed, i want to know if you believe it is appropriate for you and your family to continue to use this to pressure state, local, and federal candidates to support your agenda . Ms. Devos if i am confirmed, i will not be involved in political contributions, and my husband will not be either. Sen. Murray ok, thank you very much. Chairman alexander thank you, senator murray. Senator burr has deferred to founder isaacson senator isaacson. Sen. Isakson thank you, ms. Devos. Congratulations on her your nomination. I would like to ask you three questions in regard to the statement. This committee has established a task force on government regulation and identified 59 burdens and regulations that affect Higher Education. Of the 59, 12 can be invalidated and changed immediately. In 2015, senators bennett, king, booker, alexander, and myself introduced a bill to simplify the burdensome application process, and fill out financial aid. University of georgia, andriy university, georgia tech, three wellknown institutions in my state have said this is a priority for them to move forward and simplify the process in getting our kids the best education they can give. Get. My question is, would you commit to working with our office to advance the recommendations on Higher Education . Ms. Devos thanks for that question. I am aware of this task force report. It sounds like the direction it has taken is very promising. If confirmed, i look forward to working with you to implement the things that are deemed appropriate to be done. Sen. Isakson would you commit to us to work with us on the items identified by the task force that the secretary herself or himself currently has the authority to change . Meaning this wont be another government report that goes on the shelf. It will be acted on one way or the other. Ms. Devos you have my commitment on that. Sen. Isakson lastly, will you work with this committee to simplify the application for fafsa . And reduce the burden of aggravation for families, and make it easier for students to apply to college and attend . Ms. Devos indeed i will. I know that has been a very burdensome process and application. In fact, i recall chairman alexander unfolding the entire length of it. It is a very long process. I look forward to working with you. Sen. Isakson 104 questions, mr. Chairman, if i remember correctly. The committee came up with a twopage application that works just as well. It is an important way to improve attending college. Ms. Devos let me say i dont think we should make it any more difficult than absolutely necessary for students to further their education. Sen. Isakson right answer. Is mr. Boyd here . You referred to the partners Potters House. Ms. Devos yes, he is. Sen. Isakson stand up. You have done a great job with Potters House. This is the kind of leadership we need to help people who dont get help. Number ofer georgia investments in potters. We appreciate what you have done very much. Thank you. Thank you. Sen. Isakson that brings me to this point. Senator murray was talking about privatizing schools and talking about the importance of the lack of importance of Charter Schools and the importance of protecting Public Education. She talked about her goal and my goal, which we have shared with each other, to work towards requiring fouryearold prekindergarten for every student in the country, because we believe it is important. We did it in georgia. How we did it in georgia was taking faithbased educational fouryearold pk programs, and private fiveyearold pk programs, and private institutions to provide us with the classrooms and teachers to teach the curriculum. Today in georgia, 16,000 fouryearold kids go to 61,000 prekindergarten paid for by the state, delivered by a variety of private and public institutions. My point is, if you are going to meet the challenges of Public Education today and have to the depends solely on the resources available, you will never get to where you want to go, but if you get the private sector making an investment in Public Education and have standards everyone commits to, you can greatly expand the opportunity of education, greatly expand the accessibility of education, and do it through faithbased private and other type institutions. Do you agree with that . Ms. Devos i think it is an interesting approach that georgia has taken, and it is similar to what florida has done. As the essa act is implement it, implemented, it would be interesting for states to take a look at some other successful programs, and i would also look forward to working with the other agencies that are involved with some of the preschool funding of headstart and so forth, to see if there are ways to more effectively use those moneys to help students be ready for kindergarten when they reach kindergarten. Sen. Isakson my time is up. I want to ignore knowledge in reading your testimony in talking to you in my office, i appreciate your recognition of the nontraditional student of 25 years ago has become the traditional student of today. Not every kid lives in a two parent household, not everyone lives in a nice environment. We have to come up with the programs necessary to train our kids to do the jobs of the 21st century in different ways all the time. Congratulations on your nomination. I yield back. Chairman alexander thank you. Sen. Sanders sen. Sanders thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for being with us and dropping by the office a few days ago. I think there is a growing fear in this country that we are moving toward what someone call an oligarchic form of society, where a small number of very wealthy billionaires control our economic and political life. Would you be so kind as to tell us how much your family has contributed to the Republican Party over the years . Ms. Devos senator, first of all, thank you for that question. I was pleased to meet you in your office last week. I wish you i could give you that number. I dont know. Sen. Sanders i have heard the number was 200 million. Does that sound in the ballpark . Ms. Devos collectively over my entire family, that is possible. Sen. Sanders my question is, and i dont mean to be rude, but do you think if you were not a multibillionaire if your family , had not made hundreds of thousands of dollars in contributions to the Republican Party, that you would be sitting here today . Ms. Devos senator, as a matter of fact, i do think there would be that possibility. I have been working hard to be a voice for students and to empower parents to make decisions on behalf of their children, primarily low income children. Sen. Sanders thank you. In your statement, youre prepared statement, you say, students should make informed choices about what kind of education they want to pursue post high school, and have access to highquality options. Some of us believe we should make public colleges and universities tuition free, so that every young person in this country, regardless of income, does have that option. Thats not the case today. Would you work with me and others to make public colleges and universities tuition free through federal and state efforts . Sen. Sanders senator, i think thats a really interesting idea, and it is really great to consider and think about, but i think we also have to consider the fact that there is nothing in life that is truly free. Somebody is going to pay for it. Sen. Sanders well, yeah, youre right. Somebody will pay for it, and that takes us to another issue. If i may, that is, right now we have proposals in front of us to substantially lower tax rates for billionaires in this country, while at the same time low income kids cant afford to go to college. You think that makes sense . Senator, i think if your question is really around how we can help college and Higher Education be more affordable for young people as they sen. Sanders actually, that was not my question. My question is should we make public colleges and universities tuition free so that every family in america, regardless of income, will have the ability to have their kids get a Higher Education . That was my question. Ms. Devos senator, i think we can Work Together and work hard on making sure that college or Higher Education in some form is affordable for all young people that want to pursue it. I would look forward to that opportunity. Sen. Sanders would you agree with me that if there is a mom watching this hearing who makes 30,000, 40,000 a year, a single mom, perhaps, who has to pay 10,000 or 50,000 a year for child care for her daughter, 10,000 or 15,000 a year for child care for her daughter, that that is a burden that is almost impossible to deal with . What are your proposals about making childcare universal for our working families . Do you have ideas on that . Do you agree with that idea . Ms. Devos that certainly is a burden, and while i understand the challenge that young mother would face in deciding how best to serve her childs needs, if we are talking about the future of that child in her education, i would look forward to working with you. I know we have Common Ground on a lot of things and we could find ways to Work Together to ensure that young moms child will have a great opportunity for a great education in the future. Sen. Sanders there are countries around the world which to provide universal, very inexpensive or free childcare. Would you work with me in moving our government in that direction . Ms. Devos senator, again, i feel very strongly about the importance of young families having an opportunity for good childcare for their children. Sen. Sanders thats not a question of an opportunity, its the question of being able very often my republican friends talk about opportunity. Its not a question of opportunity. It is a question of being able to afford it. How do we help somebody making a dollars dollars or nine and hour at a time, when we cant raise the minimum wage because of republican opposition, how do we make sure those moms get quality child care that they can afford . Ms. Devos i would look forward to helping that mom getting quality education for their child or children so they can look forward to a bright and hopeful future. Sen. Sanders thank you very much. Chairman alexander thank you, senator sanders. Next, senator hatch. Sen. Hatch thank you, chairman. Im happy to have you here, ms. Devos, and i appreciate the abilities you have exemplified. The work of your family the care , that you have for education, the hard work you have done. I have to say, very few people in this country could even come close to what you have done. I welcome you to the committee. It has been a pleasure to be here today to consider your nomination as secretary of education. I appreciate your commitment to expanding opportunities for all children, and your tireless work in the field of education. Your record of service is in line with utah values, especially your commitment to restoring local autonomy of our schools. Those closest to students know what is best for their education. The truth you have championed is a reformer. This committees support and passage of the every Student Succeeds act demonstrates that these values are not unique to you and me, but instead shared by many of my colleagues who care for education as a reality. All i can say is the selections for this position have worked hard to make sure that the people serve the needs of these positions, not just people of stereotypical education, but those who might be bringing new things to the forefront. All i can say is we have ushered many of our colleagues through this process on both sides of the floor, and i hope my colleagues will extend the same courtesy to you. I also believe in extending the benefit of the doubt, recognizing, for example, that a persons views as a private citizen do not necessarily reflect their future actions as a holder of public office. In my private conversations with you, i trust that you will not force particular policies on states, unlike what some in education do. Your predecessors have done, in some cases, in violation of congressional intent. I also recognize that support of Parental Choice for all students is not an attack on Public Education. My children, grandchildren, and greatgrandchildren have attended Public Education as a reality, and i have to say that they have attended the schools, and i believe you share my commitment to ensuring that every child receives a quality education regardless of the type of school they attend. I have spent my entire First Service fighting to make equity in education a reality. I believe that you would be an indispensable partner in this fight. I look forward to working with you on the priorities that are important to the people of utah, including increasing transparency, accountability, and access to Higher Education, as well as increasing innovation and evidencebased reforms. Unlike others here who may be interested in attacking your donations, i know that you want to do right by all children, so i will stick to focusing on how we can Work Together on some policy. Right now, the department of education does not have a uniform measure for describing whether borrowers are repaying their loans. According to the confusion, the Department Issues a different is using a different borrower repayment Rate Methodology for each policy at comes up with. The uniform metric might prove tough on making Information Available to congress and the Higher Education community about the success of former students in repaying their federal student loan debts. This information could also tell us the extent to which Student Loan Repayment rates vary across institutions. I believe students should have access to a wide variety of data when choosing a school, just like they would when choosing a car. Greater access to information would lead to wise decisionmaking when choosing an institution. Do you support increasing transparency regarding loan results for students and parents to use when deciding on a post secondary school . Ms. Devos senator, thank you for that question and your kind comments. I agree with you 100 at the that the issue of student debt and the amount of student debt, over 1. 3 trillion right now, up almost 1000 in the last eight years, is a very serious issue, and one which we all have to, i think, pay close attention to and resolve in some way. If confirmed, i certainly would look forward to working with you and your colleagues on ways to get after this issue, the issue of the cost of education as well as debt repayment. They kind of go handinhand. I look forward to working with you and your colleagues, should i be confirmed. Sen. Hatch thank you so much. I think you will be confirmed and make a great secretary. Chairman alexander senator casey . Sen. Casey put me on the record as asking for a second round. If thats under consideration. Chairman alexander its not under consideration, but i would be glad to put you on. [laughter] sen. Casey i will keep trying. Ms. Devos, thank you for being here. I appreciate you and your family being here with us tonight. I wanted to start with a basic question. Would you agree with me that the problem, and thats an understatement in my judgment, that the problem of Sexual Assault on College Campuses is a significant problem that we should take action on . Ms. Devos senator, thank you for that question. I agree with you that Sexual Assault in any form or in any place is a problem. No disagreement there. Sen. Casey the second question is would you uphold let me , give you background. In 2011, the department of education issued guidance on title ix by this Current Administration. I ask you, would you uphold that 2011 title ix guidance as it relates to Sexual Assault on campus . Ms. Devos senator, i know that there is a lot of conflicting ideas and opinions around that guidance, and if confirmed by would look forward to working with you and your colleagues and understand the range of opinions, and understand the issues from the higherend institutions that are charged with resolving these and addressing them, and i would look forward to working together to find some resolutions. Sen. Casey i agree with the guidance. Im just asking for yes or no on whether you would be willing to commit to uphold that guidance. Ms. Devos it would be premature for me to do that today. Sen. Casey this problem, to say it is an epidemic is also an understatement. The centers for Disease Control told us back in 2009 that one in five women are the victims of Sexual Assault on campus, and yet a lot of those women who were in that one in five never have an opportunity or never report incidents. It is a major problem for women. In so many ways, it is the ultimate betrayal. Parents, for generations, have told their daughters study hard , in school. Get good grades, because when you get good grades you might have an opportunity to go to college, and if you go to college, the world is open to you, and you can succeed by having a Higher Education. But too often, it happens every year on many campuses around the country, too often a young woman is a victim, sometimes in the first day she is there, the first week, sometimes over the course of her first year. Her life is destroyed by that. We have a long way to go to addressing this problem. We took some good action on this issue as part of the violence against women act. It just happened to be my bill they got passed into law. What we did in that bill was, for the first time, say to colleges and universities, you have to do more than what you are doing, certainly on one broad topic of prevention and awareness, so young men on the campus who are the perpetrators of this have to be part of the solution. They have to be part of bystander education, a preventative strategy. In addition to all kinds of transparency and requirements, this is what the act did for women, or for victims i should say, victims of assault. Colleges and universities must provide clear statements regarding the procedures followed. They must do more than they have been doing when it comes to enforcement. In particular with regard to victims, it says, but college or university the college or University Must indicate to the victim her right to notify law enforcement, should the victim choose to, and the institution has the obligation to help the victim report the incident to law enforcement, including helping her get a protective order, among other things. That is where the law is now, based upon my bill. In the fall of 2015, this went into effect across the country. There is an Organization Called the foundation for individual rights in education. They support a bill that would totally change that. They would force a victim to go to Police Departments to report, and they would change the standard of evidence. Would you commit as secretary of education to retaining the standard of evidence as is currently the law . Ms. Devos senator, let me just say that my moms heart has ued on this issue. Ok,ult in any form is never and i want to be clear on that. If confirmed, i look forward to understanding the past actions and Current Situation better, and to ensure that the intent of the law is actually carried out in a way that recognizes both the rights of the victims as well as those who are accused. Sen. Casey im out of time, but the organization that has that position, which is contrary to and contrary to the spirit of what we do in that legislation, is the recipient of donation from you, totaling about 20,000 over four years. I hope that is not a conflict of interest, but i hope you would make a definitive commitment as a nominee to enforce the law as it relates to Sexual Assault on College Campuses. I will send you more questions about it. Ms. Devos thank you, senator. Chairman alexander thank you, senator casey. Senator paul . Sen. Paul congratulations, ms. Devos. Thanks for your testimony. I grew up and went to Public Schools and got a great education. Big fan of Public Schools. My kids have gone the Public Schools. There are also some Public Schools that are not doing very well. The department of education says about half are not doing well. Half the kids that are dropping kids of color. I commend you for your work in trying to help lowerincome kids and trying to help everybody get a better education. I think the status quo is not really working. I have traveled to a lot of schools, though, and have been amazed at some of the schools. I went to Saint Anthonys in milwaukee, a latin school in philadelphia. Amazing success stories. You see the success in front of you where 100 of the kids are going to college. Amazing stories where 50 , 40 , maybe 30 of their contemporaries in the community are going. There are great successes. We need to think about the kids. People get so caught up in oh, i dont want religious schools, private schools. Its like, look at the kids and look at the success. I thought maybe you can take a couple of minutes and tell us about some of the things you have seen in michigan, schools you have either visited there are a success, or some of what you have seen that has excited you about the potential that all the kids do have, and we shouldnt leave them behind. Ms. Devos thanks for that opportunity. I would love to talk about some of the schools and some of the individuals i have seen benefit from the success of being able to choose the right educational setting. I have already mentioned the Potters House school and john boyd, who is with us today. At the school i regularly visit, the students come from a multitude of different countries, speak many different languages, and most of them are from very low income circumstances. It is amazing to see the transformation that those students have been going through their Potters House years. There is another student right behind me who i have gotten to know the last few years, who is a recipient of a Tax Credit Scholarship Program in the state of florida. She will tell you very promptly that she had a very troubled Early Childhood in her grade school years. I think she was kicked out multiple times before her godmother finally found a school that was going to work for her, and the transformation was almost overnight. She is the first in her family to have graduated high school. She has graduated college. In may, she will get her masters in social work degree. She is a tremendous example of what can happen when you get an opportunity to go to the right school. We have another student here. Her mom took her and immigrated from peru because of the opportunity. She knew she would have a much greater opportunity to succeed and thrive. She has been the beneficiary of a Tax Credit Scholarship Program in arizona, and she is now in college and pursuing a Higher Education there. Those are two big students. Those are two students. There are many schools i see doing amazing things, actually trying innovative things for approaching education for children. One of them i would love to mention is called acton academy. It is truly a unique model, and that it is totally student directed. They formed their own constitution, and there is no teacher in the classroom, just a coach or a guide, and the guide cannot answer questions, they can only pose a question back to the students. The results from this academy are simply amazing. The school is actually proliferating pretty rapidly throughout the country. Those are just a few examples. I can give you dozens more. Sen. Paul putting a face on it, meeting these kids, seeing there they are going to succeed, and looking them in the eye and knowing they will succeed is an amazing thing. For those who have a philosophic hatred for vouchers and School Choice and things, watch the movie waiting for superman, and watch the mothers tears when her kid got to go to a good school. And the one who didnt get in. Senator alexander and i went to a Charter School in nashville, and we met a young woman. Shes got a full scholarship to boston college. I will never forget. Here we are, we love to talk to the media. The media did not want to talk to us, they wanted to talk to this young lady because she is an amazing success story. I wish you the best of luck. Ms. Devos i wish you the best of luck. Chairman alexander sen. Franken co sen. Franken senator franken . Sen. Franken i am a member of the party the chairman of vote. Charter schools are not an issue here. It is thoroughly in the mainstream. There are 37 states in this country that constitutionally prohibit the use of Public School money for religious schools. It is the dfl party in minnesota, thank you very much, that is in the mainstream and not the witness of the chairman. Senator lieberman mentioned proficiency. It reminded me of this. When i first got in the senate in 2009, i had a roundtable of principals in minnesota. He said, we think of the mslb test as autopsies. I know exactly what he meant. The students take the test in april, they get the results in late june. The teachers cannot use the test results to inform their instruction. I saw that in minnesota, the majority of the schools were taking a computer adaptive test, a computer test where you get the results right away, and adaptive so you can measure outside the grade level. This brings me to the issue of proficiency, which the senator cited, versus growth. I would like your views on the relative advantage of assessments and using them to measure proficiency or growth. Ms. Devos i think if i am understanding your question correctly around proficiency, i would correlate it to competency and mastery, so each student is measured according to the advancements they are making in each subject area. Sen. Franken thats growth. Thats not proficiency. In other words, the growth they are making is not growth. The proficiency is an arbitrary standard. Ms. Devos proficiency is if they have reached a third grade level for reading, etc. Sen. Franken im talking about the debate between proficiency and growth, what your thoughts are on that. Ms. Devos i was just asking the clarify, then sen. Franken this is a subject that has been debated in the Education Community for years. I have advocated growth as the chairman, and every member of this committee knows, because with proficiency teachers ignore the kids at the top who are not going to fall below proficiency, and they ignore the kid at the bottom who they know will never get to proficiency. I have been an advocate for growth. But it surprises me that you dont know this issue. And mr. Chairman, i think this is a good reason for us to have more questions. This is a very important subject, education, our kids education. I think we are selling our kids short by not being able to have a debate on it. I did not know of any rural about everyone getting one question and one other senator gets a question. I dont know where that rule comes from. Chairman alexander i will tell you where it comes from. It comes from the Committee President and the way we treated president obamas nominees, john king, the way we treated arne duncan, the way i was treated when i was a secretary. We will apply the same rules to them to secretary devos, mrs. Sen. Franken i think we are selling our kids short by not being able to ask followup questions. I was kind of surprised well, im not that surprised that you dont know this issue. Ms. Devos, your family has a large history of supporting antilgbt causes, including groups that this conversion therapy. That is the practice of trying to change is Sexual Orientation or gender identity. For example, you and your family have given over to focus on the 10 million family, an organization that currently states on its website that homosexual strugglers can and do change their sexual behavior and identity. Ms. Devos, conversion therapy has been widely discredited and rejected for decades by every mainstream and medical Health Organization as not ethically or medically appropriate. It has been shown to lead to homelessness, drug abuse, and lgbtde, particularly in youth. In fact, many leaders of conversion therapy, including both religious ministries and Mental Health professionals, have not only publicly renounced it, but have issued formal apologies for their work and how harmful it has been to the individuals involved. Mr. Chairman, i would ask that this be included in the record. Chairman alexander it will be. Sen. Franken ms. Devos, do you still believe in conversion therapy . Ms. Devos i have never believed in that. First of all, let me say i fully embrace equality, and i believe in the innate value of every single human being, and that all students, no matter their age, should be able to attend a school and feel safe and be free of discrimination. Lets start there. Let me just say that your characterization of contributions, i dont think it accurately reflects those of my family. I would hope you wouldnt include other Family Members beyond my poor family. Beyond my core family. Sen. Franken in terms of throwing numbers around, you say student debt has increased by 1000 . Ms. Devos 980 in eight years. Sen. Franken im sorry . Ms. Devos 980 . Sen. Franken thats just not so. It has increased 118 in the past eight years. Im just asking, if you are challenging my figures, i would ask that you get your figures straight about education policy. Thats why we want more questions, because we want to know if this person that we are entrusting, may entrust, to be the secretary of education, if she has the breadth and depth of knowledge that we would expect from someone who has that important job. Thank you. Chairman alexander thank you, senator franken. I had as many disagreements with secretary king as you apparently do with ms. Devos. We are treating her the exact same way that we treated him. That is what i would call the golden rule. Sen. Franken i did not hear one member of the committee asked to ask more questions, and here, virtually every member of the minority is asking to ask more questions. That is a very substantial difference. Chairman alexander because you got a nominee of the Republican Party. We are not going to treat a republican nominee different than we treated democratic nominee. We have had the same situation with both of president obamas nominees. I do want to put in the record that Michael Leavitt had two rounds. Chairman alexander Michael Leavitt was never the education secretary. One under president bush had to minute rounds. There is precedent. Chairman alexander i appreciate you saying that. I am trying to be fair by treating ms. Devos in the same way retreated both of president we treated both of president obamas education nominees. We go next to sen. Cassidy. Sen. Cassidy ms. Devos, great to see you again. I am really struck, the kind of reaction your nomination has elicited. Let me just ask some questions. Do you support Public Education . Ms. Devos absolutely, senator. Sen. Cassidy man, thats amazing. Some would have us think that you do not. Do you think all children deserve to have the opportunity to receive quality education . Ms. Devos absolutely, i do. Sen. Cassidy do you support the rights of all children, regardless of incomes or race . One meanse next a lot to me to have the , opportunity to choose the school that meets their childs needs . Ms. Devos absolutely i do, and i commend you and your wife for the school that you started that is specifically focused on dyslexic students. Sen. Cassidy my son is very bright. He graduated from an inner city Public School and then graduated with honors from some fancy school northeast. My daughter, who has dyslexia, we were able to pay the tuition so she can have her needs addressed. Not all parents can pay that, so it matters very much that a parent, regardless of their income, can get their childs needs addressed. Thank you for doing that. Do you support the believe that the decisions affecting our childrens education are best left to the states and levels to and the locals to decide to , allow them to tailor the policies and programs that best meet the needs of their students . Ms. Devos i do indeed. Sen. Cassidy oh my gosh. Do you view the role as u. S. Secretary of education opportunity to advance your personal education views and agenda . Ms. Devos not mine personally. I am hopeful to advance those of the president elect and the views of many parents nationally. Sen. Cassidy as secretary of education, is it your intention to undermine our nations Public Education system . Ms. Devos not at all. Sen. Cassidy will you carry out the implementation of federal education law in a way that reflects the very letter and intent of the law . Ms. Devos indeed. Sen. Cassidy do you intend to coerce any state, school district, or school on any Education Program credited to the secretary and federal law, one such example being common core . Ms. Devos no. Sen. Cassidy do you intend to mandate or direct any school to require private school policies, including vouchers or scholarships . Ms. Devos no. Sen. Cassidy next, you mentioned dyslexia. I am passionate about it. 20 of us are dyslexic. 20 . I am told that one out of four children of color by age four, by fourth grade, reads substantially below grade level. That is important, because we learn to read and read to learn. If you have not learned to read your behind. That is an issue i am passionate about. As secretary of education, will you commit to working with me and others to find common ways to promote better awareness and understanding of dyslexia, and will you commit to working with me in this community to develop better federal education policies to ensure that dyslexic children and all students with differences have the resources they need . Ms. Devos i would look forward to that opportunity. Sen. Cassidy you may not agree to this or not. Will you agree to work with developing new federal policies to ensure the early screening of dyslexia in schools, or universal screenings in all districts and schools, to ensure that issues are diagnosed early and the appropriate services are provided to students . Ms. Devos i would look forward to exploring that with you, to see if it is a federal role are best left to the states, but i would look forward to that opportunity. Sen. Cassidy that is a fair answer. I will thank you for your answers and yield back. Chairman alexander senator bennett . Sen. Bennet thank you, mr. Chairman. In view of how fair you have been to me and other members, it pains me to say this, i wish we had a second round of questions too. ,i wish we had the tax returns for this nominee. I dont believe you are a precedent for this. When you were the nominee, you were a governor, you have been the president of a university. John king had been a school principal, had been the commissioner of education in the state of new york. Arne duncan had been the superintendent of chicago Public Schools. Those were the experiences they brought to their committee hearing, and their records were wellknown and well established. There is no way in the time that we have that we will go into that level of background. I would ask that some consideration be given to having additional questions, and that the tax returns be made available to the committee. I want to thank ms. Devos for your willingness to serve and your passion for education and your family. I agree with you, and the Committee Members know this, that our Public School system is not working for many of our kids, particularly those living in poverty. I think it is utterly unacceptable, and the fact that we dont Pay Attention to it, the fact that we treat americas children like they are someone elses children, is something this generation will have to pay for in the future. Every child in this country should have access to a great Public School. I support parents choices on highquality schools and Charter Schools, and i think it plays a Critical Role in education. But the goal for me has never been in School Choice for its own end. The goal is highquality Public Schools for every kid in every neighborhood to receive a great education. For a kid in a low income family, there is no difference, there may be a philosophical difference, but no practical difference between being forced to attend a terrible school and to be given a chance to attend the choice of five terrible schools. That is no choice at all. In denver, we made a different deal. A deal that said we will create a public choice system, we will authorize charters, we will create traditional schools. But we implement strong accountability. As far as i can tell, detroit and michigan, to a degree, has followed the opposite path. According to one analysis, detroit Public Schools and by the way, it is not easy to figure this out because there is so little accountability in michigan detroit Public Schools averaged 9 , 9 of the kids are proficient. Charter schools were a little better, 14 of the kids were proficient. I will stipulate that Charter Schools are doing better, but that is a horrible outcome for everybody involved. According to Education Trust for 2013, the majority of Charter Schools in michigan performed worse than the detroit Public Schools when it came to African American students in eighth grade math. Nearly half of Charter Schools in michigan ranked in the bottom quarter of all schools statewide. My question is this, not a false choice about whether we should or should not have choice. We should have choice. But what you have learned in the last 20 years in your work in michigan that has changed your mind about what it is that kids need in america in the 21st century . Ms. Devos thank you for that question. First of all, i look forward to correcting some of the record regarding detroit. I think it is important to put detroit in context. In 1950, there were 1. 8 Million People living in the city of detroit. Today there is less than 700,000, 675,000 roughly. Anyone with any means in the city of detroit has basically left the city. The students there today sen. Bennet with respect, i am not asking for the history of detroit. What i would like to know is the last 20 years of School Reform that you have been so involved with in michigan. Ms. Devos yes, but you are referring specifically to detroit schools. The reality today is that eight out of 10 students in detroit are living in poverty. Nobody accepts that the results in detroit overall are acceptable. There is clearly room for a lot more improvement. But the reality is more than half of the senator bennet im sensitive because im not going to get a second round of questions. What have you learned about the failures of the detroit Public Schools and detroit Charter Schools that has informed your decisionmaking as the secretary of education . What went wrong there that is going to go right in cities across america as a result of your philosophy on how we ought to move the country forward . Ms. Devos i believe there is a lot that has gone right in detroit and michigan with regard to Charter Schools. The notion that there has not been accountability is wrong. It is false news. It is not corrected all. Of the reality is, Charter Schools in michigan have been accountable, fully accountable to their overseeing embodies and the state. Senator bennet if that is true, why are there so many failing Charter Schools . Students are getting three month on average more learning than their counterparts in the traditional Public Schools. The recent legislation that was passed now brings all schools in detroit under accountability, including the traditional schools. Here to for there has never been a traditional Public School that is been closed due to poor performance. For the people of detroit, there is accountability across the board. I am pleased and thankful. Sen. Bennet im out of time, and i apologize. I would like to say this, mrs. Devos. Thank you for your willingness to do this. I would like to invite you to denver to the denver Public Schools, if you are willing to come, to see what we are working on there. Ms. Devos i would love to do that. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator bennet. Senator young. Sen. Young thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for putting yourself forward for this position. I think you will make a fine secretary of education. To bring to your attention something we discussed in our office and spent quite a bit of time talking about teachers. You actually started talking about teachers. It was encouraging. You said we are blessed beyond measure by educators who pour themselves into their students. I share with you i am a father, i have come to appreciate how essential it is to have prepared teachers who are empowered to do their very best work and immersed in an atmosphere that is a supportive. That is my objective in sitting on this committee is to try and play a constructive role on the process, working with you. My wife, her family is full of teachers and a number of them are still teaching today in a low income town in indiana. I would like to look to the evidence. I am always open to the evidence from all comers. There is a 2007 study, they examine Education Systems all around the world to try to figure out what works. What makes for an effective education environment. It wasnt the amount of money spent per students. We tried that in this country. In 1970, the cost to educate a student was roughly 57,000, adjusting for inflation 40 years later, it is 165,000 per student. We know it is not money. What mckinsey found that was the most important factor is the quality of our teachers. I feel very strongly that we need to remove barriers to quality teaching and enable and equip these teachers to do their very best work. As someone who studied this issue extensively, i would like to get your thoughts on how we do that. Ms. Devos thank you, senator. I did enjoy our meeting in your office as well, talking about these issues. Let me restate again that a quality teacher cannot be the importance of a quality teacher cannot be overstated. I think that the opportunities abound for empowering and reempowering teachers in a new way, unleashing and unencumbering them with a lot of rules and regulations that really prohibit and inhibit creativity and innovation with their students. When you take a step back and look at how we deliver education today, for the most part, it has not changed significantly in a century and a half. And yet, the world has changed significantly. I think there is a great opportunity. This goes for teachers of all kinds of schools and all varieties, and that is to really empower them in a new way to do what they do best. And i know that in a couple of the states, when Charter Schools were actually introduced, the teacher, those that founded the Charter Schools were actually teachers who were wanting to express themselves in a different way and found a new opportunity to unleash from their previous circumstances. Sen. Young thanks. In my remaining 90 seconds, i will just emphasize that i spent the last four years in the house of representatives focused in the main on trying to ascertain whether or not our social support programs, those targeted towards helping the poor, the needy, the vulnerable to those who need a hand up, emphasizing whether or not those programs are working. I discover there are roughly 80 of these programs, depending on how you count them, of these 80, only 12 were vigorously evaluated. Of those 12, only one was found to meaningfully work. Even that was a bit complicated. We need to apply evidencebased approaches to the Education System in the same sort of way and just stare at the evidence and let it guide us hopefully in a bipartisan way. Do i have your assurance that you will operate in this fashion . It is a threshold issue for me. Ms. Devos absolutely, senator. I think it is a great opportunity. If confirmed, i look forward to working with you on that. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator young. Senator whitehouse. Sen. Whitehouse thank you, mr. Chairman. Good evening, welcome to the committee. It is reputed that Sigmund Freud said there are times when a cigar is just a cigar. And there are times when Charter Schools are just Charter Schools. When that is the case, certainly we have a very strong Charter School community in rhode island. But there are times when it appears that Charter Schools are used as a wedge to attack Public Education. And the signals of that tend to be that failing Charter Schools are protected compared to failing Public Schools. The standards really arent there. As i say in rhode island, we demand a lot from our Charter Schools. They succeed. We are proud of them. But i have read that 80 of Charter Schools in michigan are run by forprofit entities, and most of them perform below the state average, suggesting that a failing Charter School is automatically better than a successful traditional Public School in the view of that system. We in rhode island would not want to see that system moved into rhode island or moved into a national level. The second signal is when the Charter School advocates fail to recognize, as i believe you have actually recognized, that there are ongoing costs and responsibilities that traditional schools must continue to shoulder even as students leave with their funding for Charter Schools. That is so clear a proposition now that the Investment Service has written about it and talked about the danger of a downward spiral because it actually adds costs. When you have to main the public in the Charter School until the system can be adjusted. Can you assure us that your desire for Charter Schools is sincere, and that as secretary of education, you will steer away from efforts to deny Public Schools the funding they need to manage the Charter School transition, and that you make sure Charter Schools have to live up to their promise . You are not just going after Public Schools when they are failing . Ms. Devos thank you for that question. Let me begin by stating that my advocacy and my orientation is really around parents and students and their choosing the right education for their children. When parents choose Charter Schools, they are doing so because they think it is a better spot for their children. You have my commitment that i will be an advocate for all Great Schools, no matter their form, their version. I will be an advocate for parents to make those choices. Sen. Whitehouse i get that, but the question is, do you understand when the parent make that choice and the child moves to the Charter School and the funding moves with the child, that leaves a funding gap at the Previous School it cant instantaneously or magically fill. That is a real problem that moodys ms. Devos indeed, and i think this is a good example of an issue that is best addressed at the state level by each state and acknowledging that each state will have unique circumstances in that regard. Sen. Whitehouse it will be hard to address that at the state level if you make the federal department of education a crusader to move the children to Charter Schools without paying attention to the legacy costs of the Public School system. If it is your intention to create a downward spiral, that is not solved by different state policies. That is why we need you as secretary of education to recognize there is a problem, and you will keep in mind not only the Charter Schools and the parents going there, but traditional schools and the parents staying there. Ms. Devos as we spoke in your office, this is an issue, and is probably unique to some states more than it is to others. I will refer back to the implementation of the every Student Succeeds act, and the opportunities states have to address the unique challenges of their states. I will be a crusader for parents and students and the equality of education, not for specific systems or specific arrangements of how school is delivered. Sen. Whitehouse let me ask you one other quick question. For 10 years you were on the study of religion and liberty which calls Climate Change unfounded. And of undue concern. You would has been contributed to the thomas more law center, donated to the center that promoted fake science and even something in pennsylvania about the adoption of a biology textbook with intelligent design. If School Districts around the country tried to teach students junk science, will the department of education be with the students or the political entities trying to force the junk science into the science programs . Ms. Devos it is pretty clear is that the expectation is science is taught in Public Schools. I support the teaching of great science and especially science that allows students to exercise Critical Thinking and to really discover and examine in new ways. Science should be supported at all levels. Sen. Whitehouse i would have liked, mr. Chairman, to make inquiries about pell grants to follow up on these answers which were directed towards the question but not completely responsive to the question and to ask about where the department will go on the nightmarish problem of college for profits that have taken these kids and robbed them of their education, their money and set them loose with a piece of paper that is not worth anything. Im very fond of you, and of this committee, and i dont recall ever being told that i could never have a second round in a hearing as a matter of principle before. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator whitehouse. I will take my fiveminute round now and go back to something mrs. Devos brought up in several senators brought up. The law that the president called the christmas miracle that this committee produced, the fix to no child left behind. It was passed december 2015. Under the Current Administration, the plans are, under the law we call esa. Senator franken may have been the first person to suggest that. [indiscernible] sen. Alexander no, no. I should have known better. The department is planning, is on a path to save the states. Every state will have to get their new title i plan and their title ii plan, which is a true and its opportunity to take advantage of the innovation states have wanted and the flexibilities we have given them. The Current Administration is on a path to save the states. Get your plans in, we will improve them in the spring or summer. You can implement the plans in the school year that begins next year. Will you, is it your intention to continue on that path, on that schedule . Ms. Devos absolutely, senator, and if there is any confusion or questions around the transition, rest rest assured it will be highpriority if confirmed for me to ensure that the plan is adhered to and that the law is implemented, as you all intended. Sen. Alexander in most of our states, plans are being circulated among various groups. If you are confirmed, people will be looking for a signal of you that you can get your plan in in spring or summer, and we will try to improve it so you can get onto the next year. My second question is, as you can tell we have considerable differences of opinion here in the committee, and we resolved them well enough that i think 85 of us voted for. We worked out some difficult issues. We even put with senator murray likes to call guardrails on the states, and we even put some guardrails on the secretary of education. Which my colleagues on the democratic side may now think better of, that we did that. Would you what is your attitude to respecting the authority that Congress Gives you and trying to implement the law according to the way it is written rather than trying to legislate from where you are . For example, you believe very strongly in giving low income parents more choices of schools. We debated that and only got 45 votes for senator scotts bill and my bill. So it is not a law. Would you try to get that through the department of education even though congress couldnt do it . Ms. Devos it would be my goal to implement laws as you intended them. I acknowledge that it is your role to write laws and pass laws, and it would be the departments role to implement as intended. That is my commitment. Sen. Alexander so no matter how strongly you feel about School Choice, for example, you wouldnt be prepared to mandate Washington State or tennessee to adopt a particular plan . I wish i could convince you to see the merit of that in future legislation but , not any kind of mandate from within the department. Sen. Alexander the scholarship for kids legislation that i propose that got 45 votes, which was not enough, and senator scott proposed a more limited version that had to do with students with disabilities basically said that a state we , can take 24 billion of federal dollars we now spend, 24 billion of the money we now spend, and the state could choose to take that money and turn it into 2100 scholarships and let it follow the students to the schools that the state chose. If the state did not approve of dollars going to private school or religious schools, didnt have to do that, or if they did that, which i think it could do that. In this case, it would allow the states to make the decision and the parents to make the choice, rather than washington give an order you have to do School Choice. Is that the kind of proposal you would support or not . Ms. Devos yes, absolutely. We have seen a wide variety of approaches to School Choice, including private School Choice. So i think it would really be dependent on each states political realities and culture and how they wanted to approach that opportunity and that option, or if they wanted to expand it. That would be another alternative as well. Sen. Alexander thank you. Senator baldwin. Sen. Baldwin thank you, mr. Chairman. I wanted to weigh in also that i hope we will get additional opportunity to ask questions. I would like it to be not in writing but to give the American People the chance to hear the exchange and responses. Mr. Chairman, i also associate myself with the concerns raised by our Ranking Member regarding the holding of this hearing prior to receipt of the office of government ethics plan for elimination of possible conflicts of interest. Mrs. Devos, you had the chance to answer questions already about your familys indirect investments in forprofit companies, including finance and performance, which i understand to be a Collection Agency that specializes in student debt collection. So i wont repeat those there, but let me get to the agreements the ethics agreement that would be forthcoming. What decision do you make to take advantage of section 1043 of the Internal Revenue code that allows you to defer Capital Gains taxes on the sale of assets divested in order to comply with ethics rules . This provision can allow wealthy individuals to save hundreds of millions of dollars. It is why, when i became aware of this and i joined senators white house and warren on this committee, as well as our colleague senator feinstein, in introducing a bill to close this loophole or at least limit the amount of Capital Gains that could be deferred to 1 million. Because we dont have your Financial Information yet from the office of government ethics, my question to you is, are you planning on taking advantage of this tax loophole . Ms. Devos senator, thank you for that question. Let me just restate again that i look forward to the ethics agreement finalization with the Government Office of ethics and committed to ensuring that i have no conflicts and will go forward with no conflicts. With respect to your specific question, i will not take advantage of that. I have already made that conclusion, that decision. In fact, it would probably be useful to note here if confirmed, i will only take a salary of one dollar so i can be official. But i dont want to take a salary either. Sen. Baldwin i also listened carefully to your Opening Statement and your exchange with senator franken. Related to your sizable donations to a number of antilgbt organizations that have been associated with advocacy for the discredited practice of conversion therapy, i was heartened by your response, i will say. But i will note that these same organizations, antilgbt organizations, also have been hostile to nondiscrimination protections, issues like adoption, Marriage Equality. Given the alarm that parents have expressed to me about these donations to antilgbt organizations, i guess i want to ask, i mean, i assume there are lgbt students and their parents watching tonight. What would you say to them to assure that you are going to use your position as secretary to support lgbt students or students with lgbt parents . Ms. Devos thank you, senator. Let me restate again i embrace equality, and i firmly believe in the Intrinsic Value of each individual, and that every student should have the assurance of a safe and discriminationfree place to become educated. I want to restate those principles, those values for me. Let me comment to the things you have referred to again and suggested that you may be confusing some other Family Members in some of those contributions. Also, looking at contributions from 18 or 20 years ago. So i just want to again refer to what i just said about my approach. I, if i as a mom, i just cant imagine having a child that would feel discriminated against for any reason, and i would want my child in a safe environment. Sen. Baldwin i note that i have run out of time. Mr. Chairman, i have many more questions that i would like to propound. I will say, mrs. Devos, if you think, we have been fairly general given our restricted time, on the issue of charitable contributions or contributions to these antilgbt advocacy organizations, if you feel like there has been a Family Member who has contributed and your you are being identified in the Public Record is incorrect, please in writing follow up. I have seen information quite to the contrary. Sen. Alexander thank you,sen. , senator baldwin. Senator roberts. Sen. Roberts thank you for holding the hearing. I think the Ranking Member as well. Mrs. Devos, thank you for being responsive, articulate, informed, and in my view, specific. I suppose, mr. Chairman, all members could submit any specific questions they have for the record, and when did we have a time period on that, we will always speak on the senate floor. Thank you for coming by my office. We had a nice visit. I let you know way back that i had the opportunity to teach also while trying to put out a newspaper in phoenix, not kansas but phoenix. But at any rate, i know you fully understand the onesizefitsall Education System just does not work. You said that in your testimony. And i told you that i hold a roundtable discussion in kansas and washburn university. There were 12 College President s, all of them except a few, and 12 business stakeholders, very important to those universities, to discuss Higher Education and workforce development, given the fact that we will attempt to pass a Higher Education bill. In particular i heard from the Higher Education leaders about the impact of federal programs, policies and more especially regulation. Oncampus institutions of Higher Education. During our meeting last month in my office i shared with you an information chart. I need a bigger chart. Like the guy who said he needed a bigger boat with the shark coming after him. Maybe that is not a proper allegory, but any rate, these are 34 topics or areas of federal regulation. Some of them are very important, but the collective judgment was that they were so intrusive, so expensive, so timeconsuming they had to get an office of the , compliance just to look at federal regulations. Then they assigned Bad News Bears to notify the various departments that make up the Johnson County community college. Which, by the way, has the highest enrollment of any university or college in kansas, more than the jayhawks, wildcats, or sharks. These 34 areas of federal regulation, supposedly impactful to the school, basically indicate that we need to Work Together to eliminate many of these burdensome regulations that hamper Higher Education institutions main goal, to educate our students effectively. As you know, and i think everybody, i would have agreement on the other side of the dais as well, regulations are one of the key areas this committee will focus on as we focus on reorganization of the Higher Education act. Will you be a partner in addressing many of these timeconsuming regulations . Mrs. Devos senator, thanks for the question, and thanks for meeting in your office. I appreciate seeing the chart again. I am a visual learner, so i appreciate that in particular. Yes, i can commit to you that if confirmed, i will look forward to working with you and this committee on that act and the regulations you have referred to. Wanting to help free our institutions of Higher Learning to the greatest extent possible to do it they do best. Senator roberts being in auburn mbudsman, along with my fellow senator, it is tough when you try to go directly to the person who is in charge of that department, namely you. And i tried that before sitting down across from president obama and complaining about regulations under his executive order to make sure every department ascribed to a costbenefit yardstick, if you will. That did not happen. The person in charge was supposed to be back, and his right arm, dennis. Dennis was in charge of war and peace and other things. I recommend that maybe i ought to do it regionally. Obviously we have had people from rural areas, urban areas it will be terribly important we get to somebody that can actually see the problem, report back to you or somebody else in your department. You cant do all this, i dont know anybody that can. At least when we have a real problem with the 12 universities or for that matter five or six or even one, saying here is a regulation that doesnt make sense, can we at least address it . Maybe we can tweak it and get rid of it or do better. I hope you can work out some kind of swat team, if you will, with regards to overregulation. That was the number one issue that i heard. Thank you. Ms. Devos thank you, senator. I think that sounds like a great idea. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator roberts. Senator murphy. Sen. Murphy if senator alexander decided to allow us more than a meager five minutes, mrs. Devos, do you have anywhere to be tonight . Would you be able to stick around and answer those questions . Mrs. Devos i will defer to the chairman on this. Sen. Murphy i assume you dont have other obligations. I think this is a real shame, this rush job, the inability to let the public see this a debate. It is imperative to get this in before we have the information. It really violates the best traditions of the community and , that is trying to protect the nominee from scrutiny. I hope we would reconsider. Let me rush through these questions. Your family has been investors in a Company Called k12, a forprofit operator. 80 of its money comes from federal or state taxpayers and has made over 1 million in a year, made millions in profit. I can go through a long litany of examples in which people have made their fortune off of Public Education Charter School dollars. A principal in orlando got a 519,000 payout when his school was closed for poor performance. My question to you, do you support companies and individuals profiting from Public Education dollars that is essentially taking money away from students to pay salaries for ceos in return for investors . Mrs. Devos senator thank you , for that question. Let me just say that when it comes to education, i think what is important is what the outcomes are, what the achievements are. I dont think the delivery mechanism is the issue as much as it is, are students receiving the benefit of a great education . Sen. Murphy have you met many principles in detroit that say they have enough, they dont need any more . Mrs. Devos i cant answer that question. I have not asked them specifically if they have enough. Sen. Murphy if we cant agree folks should not get rich off of schools, maybe we should agree they should not get rich about terrible schools. We talked about the regulations of that were a big part of the underlying new federal education law. The department has issued final regulations that incorporated comments of basically everyone in the Education Field to make sure to the extent public dollars were flowing to private schools that they were meeting real standards. The accountability regulations are supported by the School Superintendents association, civil rights groups, teachers unions. Can you assure the committee you will implement accountability regulations to make sure all schools are performing and not throw this into chaos for states and districts around the country . Will you implement those . Mrs. Devos senator, let me restate again that i think accountability is highly important, and i support accountability for all schools, which is why i supported the most recent legislation in michigan that is now holding all schools including traditional , Public Schools accountable for performance. I will continue to support accountability. I will support the implementation of every Student Succeeds act as congress has intended it. Sen. Murphy let me ask you again. Will you support the implementation of existing regulations supported by a wide crosssection of the Educational Community that requires schools to come up with their own accountability standards, state and localbased, that will require that all schools meet some basic performance standards . I am asking you a specific question about this existing regulation. And whether you are willing to supported or will use your position to undermine it or change it. Mrs. Devos as would be tradition with the change of administration, i will look forward to reviewing that and again, i will restate my orientation to proaccountability and proresponsibility to parents and taxpayers. Sen. Murphy that will raise a lot of questions for administrators and school regulators trying to implement that regulation. Do you think guns have any place in or around schools . Mrs. Devos that is best left to locales and states to decide. If the underlying question is sen. Murphy you cant say definitively today that guns shouldnt be in schools . Mrs. Devos i will refer back to senator enzi and the school he was talking about in wyoming. I think probably there, i would imagine that there is probably a gun in the schools to protect from potential grizzlies. Sen. Murphy if President Trump moves forward with his plan to ban Gun Free School zones, will you support that . Mrs. Devos i will support what the president elect does. If the question is around gun violence and the results of that, please know that my heart bleeds and is broken for those families that have lost any individual due to gun violence. Sen. Murphy i look forward to working with you, but i also look forward to you coming to connecticut to talk about the role of guns in schools. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator murphy. Senator scott. Sen. Scott thank you for your willingness to be here. A couple questions i have as a relates to kids who are consistently attending schools that are underperforming. If you look at the outcomes of the lives of the children, which i think is a very important and should be a central part of this conversation we are having, how is the Education System our kids are involved in preparing them for the future we hope they will live . A future that includes the American Dream . When we look at the underperforming schools, rural areas and inner cities, many schools so underperforming, kids from those underperforming schools consistently have higher rates of incarceration. They have significantly higher rates of unemployment. The importance of education cant be emphasized enough for the quality of life the child will experience, responsibility the government will bear because of that poor Education System. What we can make sure for this access of quality education in every zip code should be of paramount importance to this nation, committee, and the entire senate. I would love to hear your thoughts before i get into the perkins cte programs. Mrs. Devos senator, i thank you for the question and for the thought and your observations and experience behind it. I couldnt agree more that we have continued to do a disservice to so many young people in our country by continuing to force them to attend schools that are not working for them or for many. The fact that 1. 4 Million Students dropped out every year, one every 42 seconds, that is a human tragedy. When you think about the lost human potential, and as you mentioned, essentially a pipeline to prison for so many of those students, that is why i continue to be an advocate for allowing parents and empowering parents with the opportunity to make the right choices for their children. And i understand that there is a whole range of those choices based on the realities of a state. That is why states need to grapple with this issue in a meaningful way. If confirmed, i hope to be able to talk with governors and legislators about opportunities and options they have to address the needs of the student sen. Scott thank you very much. I think there is another part of the education apparatus that does not get enough attention. So often we think of Technical Schools as a subpar choice. As the place to go if you get cannot get into a fouryear school. It is like we have a bachelors addiction that may not be in the best interest of students. I hope you are committed to taking a serious look at encouraging and providing great support for highquality Technical Schools. I know in South Carolina, the importance of Technical Schools cannot be over emphasized. When we think of hightech manufacturing hub, it is really for us in South Carolina, it creates a hub in all honesty. The sectors we benefit from, the transportation sector boeing , 9000 jobs in South Carolina to the bmws, the bridgestones. Our Technical Schools are the reason why we are succeeding on the hightech manufacturing jobs. One of the things i have noted is that we probably need to have a robust conversation about making sure there is flexibility in coursework at the Technical Schools, because there is almost 6 million openings in this country. 75 do not require a College Degree. If we can align what is available in the marketplace with the training and Technical Schools, we might solve a major part of our unemployment. Ms. Devos absolutely, senator. Students, as they anticipate Higher Education, really need to have a full menu of options shared with them. They need to know when understand where the opportunities are, what the costs are the various avenues they might take. And certainly Technical Schools, community colleges, apprenticeships, there is really a wide variety of alternative pathways to a great future if students are made aware of them. Sen. Scott i know i am out of sen. Scott i know i am out of time, mr. German. Just to finish, you may be familiar with the fivepoint plans. You put 50,000 into the account. I think the fivepoint plans to be a wonderful apparatus to be paid for or subsidize some of the cost even k12. I would love for us to have a longer rotation on that. Ms. Devos i look forward to it. Thank you. Sen. Scott thank you, mr. Chairman. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator scott. Senator warren. Sen. Warren we dont have a second round. I asked my staff to pull the records from the hearing we had. You said when you called on me, i think we have time for a second round. Senator warren, you can be the first in the second round. I heard that, i was the only one who stayed and had questions. Sen. Alexander that is why we had time. Sen. Warren i understood the precident meant people that had questions could ask them. Well we are doing precedents, i understand was the precedent that president obamas nominees had ethics forms so we can ask them questions about them in public. I am a little confused about what precedent means here. Mrs. Devos, many of my democratic colleagues have pointed out your lack of experience in Public Schools, but i would like to ask about your qualifications for leading the nation in Higher Education. You are making sure 150 billion gets into the right hands. The secretary of education is responsible for managing 1 trillion of Student Loans and distributing 30 million in pell billion in pell grants to students each year. The Financial Futures of an entire generation of young people depends on your Department Getting that right. Mrs. Devos, do you have any direct experience in running a bank . Ms. Devos senator, i do not. Sen. Warren have you ever managed or understanding trillion Dollar Loan Program . Ms. Devos i do not. Sen. Warren how about a billion Dollar Loan Program . Ms. Devos i do not. Sen. Warren ok, so no experience. How about participating in one . For you to understand what it is like for students and families who are struggling to pay for college have you ever taken out a student loan from the federal government . Ms. Devos i have not. Sen. Warren have your children had to borrow money . Ms. Devos they have been fortunate not to. Sen. Warren have you had experience with pell grant . Ms. Devos not personal experience, but certainly friends and students with whom i have worked. Sen. Warren do you have personal experience with College Financial aid or management of Higher Education . Lets start with the basics. Do you support protecting federal taxpayer dollars from fraud and abuse . Ms. Devos absolutely. Sen. Warren so do i. Now we all know resident trumps experience with Higher Education was to create a Fake University which resulted in him paying 125 million to students that he cheated. Students that to he cheated. I am curious about how the Trump Administration would protect against waste fraud entities at similar forprofit colleges. How do you plan to protect taxpayer dollars from waste, fraud, and abuse from colleges and taking millions of dollars of student aid . Ms. Devos senator, if confirmed i will certainly be very vigilant. Sen. Warren how . How will you do it. You said you are committed. Ms. Devos the individuals with whom i worked will ensure that federal moneys are used properly and appropriately. I will look forward sen. Warren you are going to subcontract making sure that what happens with universities that cheat students doesnt happen anymore . Ms. Devos no, i didnt sen. Warren you will give that to someone else to do . I want to know what your ideas are . Ms. Devos i want to make sure we dont have problems with that as well. If confirmed, i will work diligently to confirm we are addressing any of those issues. Sen. Warren what suggestion do you make . It turns out many roles that are already written, all you have to do is enforce them. What i want to know is, what you commit to enforcing these rules to ensure that no Career College receives federal funds unless they can prove they are actually preparing students for gainful employment and not cheating them. Ms. Devos i will commit to ensuring that institutions which received federal funds are actually serving their students well. Sen. Warren so you will enforce the gainful employment rule to make sure that these Career Colleges are not cheating students . Ms. Devos we will certainly review that rule. Sen. Warren you will not commit to enforce it . Ms. Devos and see that it is actually achieving what the intentions are. Sen. Warren i dont understand about reviewing it. We talked about this in my office. There are already rules in place to stop waste, fraud, and abuse, and i am not sure how you cannot be swindlers and crooks are out there doing back flips when they hear an answer like this. If confirmed, you will be the cop on the beat. You cannot commit to use the tools that are already available to you in the department of education, but i dont see how you could be the secretary of education. And i look forward to having a second round of questions. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator warren. Senator collins. Sen. Collins thank you, mr. Chairman. I cannot help but think it gives my friends on the other side of the aisle have used their time to ask questions rather than complaining about the lack of a second round, the each would have been able to get in a second question. I used 15 seconds of my time to make that point. Commitment to education, any suggestion such as was made earlier that your nomination is linked to your political contribution is really unfair and unwarranted. And i just want to say that for the record. I now would like to move on to some questions about how you view the federal role in education versus the state and local role. I want to put aside the dc opportunity Scholarship Program because Congress Relationship to the District Of Columbia is unique. And i want to ask you, at what level of government do you believe that decisions about Charter Schools and vouchers should be made . Is that the federal role, or is that a state role . Ms. Devos thank you for that question. I really enjoyed the conversation we had in your office. Let me respond to your question about federal versus state and local rule by saying, i absolutely support the fact it is a state rule and state decision what kind of offering there might be with regards to choices and education. As we discussed in our office, maine has a unique situation with Students Attending School on islands and in rural areas. It suggests that the right answer for maine is not the right answer for indiana or any state. I would not support a federal mandate or federal role in dictating those. Sen. Collins i am glad to hear that. I have heard repeatedly from school officials, whether teachers or superintendents, that the same action the federal government could take would be to fulfill the promise of the 1975 individuals with disabilities to education act, to fund 40 of the additional cost of educating a special needs child. It has been many years since that law was passed. We have never come close to the 40 . Would you commit to taking a look at the funding of the department to see if we could do a better job of moving towards fulfillment of that promise . That is an action that would help every Single School district in this country. Ms. Devos senator, absolutely i would commit to that if confirmed. I actually think this is an area that could be considered for an approach that would be somewhat different, and that maybe the money should follow individual students instead of going to the states. I think that is something that we could discuss. I look forward to talking about that with the members of this committee. Sen. Collins another of my concerns, having worked at a College Level for a period of time is the low rate of college completion. There is nothing worse than a student being saddled with educational debt and not earning the credential or the degree that would enable the student to pay off that debt. I am a strong supporter of the federal trio program which helps prepare students for Higher Education. It helps to raise aspirations, particularly of children who come from families without experience in the Higher Education. Do you have any thoughts on how we can do a better job in supporting College Success programs so that we can ensure students are able to complete their degrees or earn their credentials . Ms. Devos senator, thank you. I do think we can do a better job with preparing students, informing them before they enter college. I know the trio Program Helps to mentor and a pair prepare students that might not otherwise have an opportunity. That is a very important and valid one to look at, or perhaps, is there another and more effective way to advance that or replicate that . Or use that in a new way to help increase the participation of students that may not otherwise pursue Higher Education and complete it . Sen. Collins thank you. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator collins. Senator hassan. Sen. Hassan thank you, mr. Chairman and Ranking Member murray. I looking forward i look forward to working on this committee and appreciate the opportunity to participate. Mrs. Devos, it is nice to see you again. Thank you for being here today, your family as well. And i think all of us here share a commitment to Public Education and making sure the standards to democracy. I would echo my colleagues call for another round of questioning, because i think our job here is not to talk about ideas but actually to drill down how this actually works in practice. And so, i want to talk about one of those situations you begin to touch on in my office when we met. It has a little bit of what senator collins was talking about an terms of full commitment to students with disabilities and what senator cassidy was talking about with qualifications for children with dyslexia. My son, ben, experiences cerebral palsy. He cannot speak or uses fingers, but he is smart and the best kid on earth, if i do say so myself. He got a quality Public Education at our local school. He is a graduate of exeter high he is a graduate of Exeter High School in exeter, new hampshire. He worked so hard to make sure he had the right to that education. And i am concerned that with students who experience disabilities receive a publicly funded voucher to attend a private school, they often dont receive adequate resources and in some cases have to find over their legal rights over the individuals with disabilities act. Do you think family should have a recourse in the courts if their childs education does not adequately meet his or her needs, whether they get a voucher or more public and traditional . Ms. Devos thank you for the question. I appreciate our meeting earlier last week. Let me begin by saying i appreciate and dancing for that you had the opportunity with your son ben, to find the right opportunity for him. I would advocate for all parents to be able to have that opportunity to choose the right school sen. Hassan i had the opportunity to send him to the same Public School that my daughter went to because law required that that school provide him resources that were never invited before that law was passed because it was hard. So the question is, will you enforce the law with regard to kids with disabilities if the Voucher Program did allow them to go someplace else . And the school said, no, it is too expensive, we dont want to do it. Ms. Devos there are great programs already in place like in ohio. Sam and his mom are here today, beneficiary of the John Peterson special needs Scholarship Program. Sen. Hassan i understand that. But excuse me for interrupting. What i am asking you is, there is at least one Voucher Program which makes students sign away their rights before they can get that voucher. I think that is fundamentally wrong, and i think it will mean that students with disabilities cannot use the voucher system that the department under your leadership might start. So i want to know whether you will enforce and whether you will make sure that children with disabilities do not have to sign away their legal rights in order to get a voucher should the Voucher Program be developed. Ms. Devos i talk about this program were 31,000 are taking advantage, and 93 of the parents utilizing the voucher are pleased with it. As opposed to 30 sen. Hassan that is not the question i asked. For right now, i will move on to one final question i really do wish we had a second round. There is a lot here that is critical to our students with disabilities. With all due respect, mr. Voss, has not answered my question, but because we have not a second round, i am trying to follow up on a question you asked there is a Foundation Named for your parents, correct . Ms. Devos my mothers foundation. Sen. Hassan and you sit on the board . Ms. Devos i do not. Sen. Hassan so when it made the 5 million donation to focus on the family, you did not know anything about it. Ms. Devos my mother makes the foundation decisions. Sen. Hassan thank you. Sen. Alexander thank you, senator hassan. Senator burr. Sen. Burr thank you, mr. Chairman. Mrs. Devos, thank you for agreeing to serve. I think a lot of americans watch what goes on here and say, never me. I will never go through it. I think most of us say that after an election cycle. It is rare to find somebody who is the full monty. I mean, you dont have to do this. That is apparent. You did not have to choose education as your lifes ambition, but you did. Thank you for the investment you have been made for all the kids who have been impacted. For the unbelievable statistic you know about florida, or whatever. Im sure you andy senator from minnesota can come to agreement on what the numbers were about what he was talking about. I remember, in my first election, i went in to get the support of educators. I was 10 minutes into what looked to be a 30 to 45 minute question and answer. I asked a question, are there any questions for kids with outcomes . I can ask also the questions about you personally, and what you have done, but you came into my office. Before i asked a question, you convinced me that you are passionate about ensuring that every child had the opportunity to have a successful education. From that, every child that got that education would have an opportunity to reach the American Dream of a life that is unlimited, opportunity that is unlimited. You convinced me without asking a question. I only have one question today. Why is it so difficult for us to figure out how to focus on outcome versus getting so hung up on process . Mrs. Devos senator, i think that is a very good question. I think we could have a very robust debate in this room about that. I think that human tendency is to protect and guard what is because change is difficult. And yet, we see the fact that there are millions of students who are simply not getting the opportunity for an equal opportunity for quality education. And, we try to tinker around from the top, and we try to fix things, but it becomes more about the system, im afraid, then it does about what is right for each child. I thank you for your support, and your encouragement around the notion that every child should have the opportunity. Every parent should have the opportunity, on behalf of the child, to choose the right educational environment for them. Im hopeful that, if we can continue having a robust conversation about this, we will talk about the Great Schools that our children have the opportunity to go to 10 years from now, which may not exist today, or look very different from what exists today. I think the opportunity to innovate and education is really unlimited, and untested to a large extent. I hope we have that opportunity. Senator burr i think we will, and i hope the committees is it in the actions to see to it that you are the helm of the department of education. As i look across america, and across the world, icna Twitter Technology will impact things in a way that we did not dream about five years ago. I still remember my father at 90 years old looking at me just about five years ago saying, i do not understand how a fax machine works. Thats not limit my belief in the purpose is served. Education will have to change drastically, but what is most important is having someone who is passionate at top. For that, im thankful that you are here. Senator alexander thank you. Senator king. Senator king how much information do you have about the finances of the president elect. Mrs. Devos i do not have any of that information, senator. Senator king so, you will not know how to how the actions will affect his personal finance situation. Mrs. Devos im not sure how to comment on that. Senator king i think you would need to know how that affects the president s personal finances. I think it is relevant to know how the proposal might affect personaldents fo finances. Mrs. Devos i think the president has taken steps can you restate the question . Senator king i think it is wise to know how the proposal will affect the president s personal finances. You disagree with me . Mrs. Devos i do not disagree with you. Senator king the nation deserves a secretary who is a champion of Public Education. In a 2015 speech on education, you were blunt, government really sucks. You called the Public School system a debt and. Dead end. You have never attended a Public School . Mrs. Devos correct. Senator king teachers and others do better with their more out is high. Teachers and others do better when their orality is high. Do you agree with me . Devos absolutely, and i support great teachers. Senator king the attitude of the leader matters a lot for a workforce, would you agree on that . Mrs. Devos absolutely. With reference to the quote that you made senator king i do not have any questions about it, and i have a limited amount of time. I want to move on to another quote. You and your husband spoke at a conference a number of years ago. Your husband said this was not attributed to you, but you were together at the conference. The church has been displaced by the Public School as the center of what goes on in the community. Thomas jefferson did not view Public Education as contrary to the church, do you . Mrs. Devos i do not. Senator king do you think do you think schools that receive government funding said meet the same outcome standards . Mrs. Devos all schools that receive funding should be accountable. Senator king the same standards . Mrs. Devos yes. Although you have different accountability standards between traditional Public Schools and Charter Schools. Senator king im very interested in this. Public charter or private schools, k12, they should meet the same accountability standards. Mrs. Devos yes. Parents should have the information, first and foremost. Senator king would you agree on will you insist on equal accountability on any Educational Program that receives federal funding . Mrs. Devos i support accountability. Senator king is that a yes or no . Mrs. Devos that is a i support accountability. Senator king i think all schools that receive taxpayer funding should be equally accountable. Mrs. Devos they do not. They are not today. King do you agree or not . Devos no. Senator king should all schools be required to meet the requirements of schools with disabilities act. Mrs. Devos i think they already are. King im asking you a should question. Should all schools that receive taxpayer funding be required to meet the requirements of the individuals with disabilities and education. Mrs. Devos i think that is a matter better left to the states. Senator king some states might be good, other state might not be so good, and then people can move around the country . Mrs. Devos i think that is an issue best left to the states. Senator king what about the federal requirement . Individuals with education individuals with disabilities education act. Lets limit it to federal funding. Should they be required to follow federal law . Mrs. Devos as the senator ford senator referred to there are many parents who are happy with the program there. Senator king let me say this, i think all schools that receive federal funding, public charter, or public, should be required to follow the individuals with disabilities and education act. Do you agree with me . You cannot get a degree of me. Agree with me. Should all schools be required to report the same information in instances of harassment and bullying. Mrs. Devos i think that federal funding comes with strings attached. Senator king i think all schools that receive federal funding should report on issues of harassment and bullying, and you agree with me on that . Its not a court, youre not under oath, not under subpoena, but you are trying to win my vote. Senator alexander senator krukowski. Senator krokowski thank you, senator for coming to my office. I had the pleasure of showing you the map of alaska. Hopefully educate you some. Some of the challenges we face as a state in delivering education and what is not a rural state but what has been described as a frontier state in many ways. 82 of communities in alaska are not attached by road. They are islanded in every sense of the road. I had the opportunity, on saturday, to meet with about 400 educators in the state. I will tell you, they are concerned about your nomination. They are concerned because they would love to have the choice we are talking about, but when you are a small school, and there is no way to get to an alternative option for your child, the best parent is left relying on a Public School system. I want to be sure, and i think every teacher that i met with on saturday once to make sure that your commitment to Public Education, particularly for rural students, who have no choices is as strong and robust as the passion you have dedicated to advancing Charter Schools. I appreciated what you said in response to the chairs questions about whether you would work toward a voucher type of system, if we in the Congress Said that is not the direction. I tried to ensure to the teachers i was talking to that they are not significant vote to voucherize the system. I appreciate the inquiry from senator king on the level of accountability. This was something brought up in the q a session in anchorage. A concerned that there would not be an effort to match that accountability to the schools that receive federal funding, either through a Voucher Program, but, in addition to program standards, there would be true accountability with adhering to federal laws for civil rights as well as students with disabilities. I will ask for a continuation of the discussion. You have provided some very responsive, that i think will help the teachers in alaska, where the options are very limited. How can you provide assurance to these teachers, families, and students, for whom alternatives and options are severely limited . Not because we dont want them, but because our geography isolates us. Mrs. Devos thank you for that question. I really appreciated our conversation and a review of the map because it reminds us of the unique challenges that alaska has. I would say that i can assure you that, if confirmed, i will support alaska and its approach to educating youngsters. I have to say, i think the creativity and innovation that alaska has employed through the traditional public system is one that other states can probably take note of and learned some lessons from. We hope that they continue to feel the freedom and drive to continue to educate and innovate. Senator krukowski we are proud of the innovation we have made. We have a great deal of urban centers anchorage hosts six of the most ethnically diverse schools in alaska. Then, we have rural schools where i may have no more than 60 kids in a school. In order for them to have the same benefits and opportunities, the dollars that flow, and the commitment that flows, there is a level of accountability throughout. It remains a significant challenge. I need to have a Firm Commitment that the focus you will give to not only alaska, but states that have significant global populations rural populations, that the public system is not undermined, eroded, or ignored. Mrs. Devos absolutely, senator, you have my commitment. I think there is so much that alaska can share with others in terms of how to address challenges of very widespread populations. Senator alexander i will now turn to senator murray. Senator murray i had to start by saying, and i hope this does not count against my time for questions. I have questions that i know all of our Community Want to follow up. Let me say, i am really disappointed that you have preemptively cut off our members from asking questions. It really is unprecedented. You and i have worked together, and i appreciate that, but i hope you change your mind. I dont know what you are hoping hoping to protect mrs. Devos from. She should get robust scrutiny. She is over caging she will be overseeing the education of our kids. To be very clear, this is not what we have done in this committee. From president bushs Second Health and Human Services, five members participated. From president obamas secretary of labor, three members participated, over three hours. For president clintons secretary of labor, 10 questions. Three and a half hour hearing with questioning. I hope we are not just cherry picking senator duncan and senator king, who had a broad history behind them, behind this. I would like to enter into the record showing the president of this history. It is important for all of us to remember that. Given the lack of hey there work and the numerous lack of paperwork, i would like to call for a second hearing of this committee. Senator alexander would you like me to respond to that now . Do you have additional questions . Senator krukowski i do have additional questions. Senator alexander let me say this. What you are asking me to do is to treat mrs. Devos differently than we treated president obamas to education secretaries, and i will not do that. We are already at 8 15. That is three hours and five minutes of hearing of questions. Secretary duncan, the hearing was two hours and five minutes. John king, the hearing was two hours and 10 minutes. This is already three hours, and we are not finished yet. As far as questions go, each member of this committee has had an opportunity to visit with mrs. Devos in their office, and i believe she has done that. Several members of this committee have already sent her written questions, which she will answer before we vote on her nomination. She has complied with all of the rules of the committee. The Committee Rules do not require that the office of government ethics report be in by the time of the hearing. She submitted her information there on the 12th i believe the 12th on the fourth of january. Mrs. Devos, i understand you are working and will continue to work with the office of ethics. Is that correct . Mrs. Devos that is correct. Senator alexander the purpose of that, for those watching, there is a designated office that works with the nominees, and comes to an agreement with them if there is any conflict of interest. If she, for example, needs to divest herself of something, that will be part of the agreement. She has said that she will do whatever she needs to do to gain an agreement with the office of government ethics so that the agreement says she has no conflicts of interest. I have said that that letter will be public, at least by friday, before we vote on her nomination by next tuesday. So, you will have the opportunity to question her in your office, to question her today, either as extensively as you did for president obamas nominees. You have the opportunity to submit additional written questions after this hearing for up to two days. I would say two days, by the close of thursday. Then, you will have three or four days after the office of government ethics letter of agreement says that she has no conflicts of interest is public. That seems to me to be entirely reasonable. I have already agreed to move the hearing one week, at the request of the democratic and republican leadership, so they could consider other nominations. On the tax return issue, it is not a requirement of this committee that nominees return provide us with their tax return. They provide us with it their Financial Information. It is not a lot to provide their tax return. Im treating her the same way that we treated president obamas education secretaries. I will not have a second round. I would be happy to extend to you, if you would like, the chance to ask questions. Then, i will do the same, which is consistent with what we did for the two previous obama secretaries. Senator murray with all due respect, this is the only nominee to not submit an lge paperwork before this hearing. Our members have not had the opportunity to review it. I appreciate private hearings, im sure all of us do, but our constituents want to hear let me just say, tillerson had three rounds, sessions, two rounds, carson, two rounds. Its unclear why education is not just as important. Senator alexander if it is important under trump, it is important under obama. I do not know why suddenly we have this sudden interest. Several people have mentioned secretary paige. He did not have his office of government ethics letter in before the hearing. The same was true for elaine chao. I have tried to be as fair as i can, and follow the golden rule. We have got over three hours for an extensive hearing, which is just part of a discussion as you evaluate how you will vote. We are just asking for five minutes per member. As senator murray said, we did have time in our office, i think half an hour, but our constituents were not there. Asking for more questions i do not think is unreasonable. Senator alexander senator, i have enormous respect for you, but the obama and ministration was also a change in administration, and i did not hear a great cry for questions. This is a threehour hearing, three hours and 10 minutes now, in addition to all the information that is there. I do not think it is fair to treat a republican president s education nominee any different from the democratic nominee. Sen. Bennett i think you are one of the fairest people in town. You have earned that. You really are. To me, the fact that republican members of the senate did not want to ask a second round of questions for the obama nominee to the senate, the fact that that should be a president for the democrats, eight of whom are here tonight even followup questions that we have heard tonight, i think is really unfair and uncharacteristic. We cant have the questions here, we will have another hearing submitting in writing is the answer before we can go forward i do not think that is a satisfactory result. If we cannot ask the questions today, i hope you and the majority leader will consider that. Senator alexander i have already said that members will have an opportunity to ask questions in writing, which they already have. Many have already done that. You can ask additional questions in writing. You can have that in by 5 00 on thursday, and next her day. I have said we will schedule an executive session on next tuesday, where we will be glad to discuss the tax return issue. We will vote on mrs. Devos, but only if the Letter Agreement from the office of government ethics is complete by this friday, and made available to all members of the committee so you have three or four days to see how that will affect your vote. Senator franken are be sure that before this school on vote on tuesday we will have the answers to these questions . I have heard we can submit the questions but here, then only has to ensure them. Here, at least the nominee has to answer them. Are you assuring us that before the vote on tuesday, our questions will have been answered . Senator alexander the number of questions needs to be reasonable, and the answers need to be reasonable. That is in the eye of the holder, sometime. The most number of questions that was ever asked before this committee was 191 to secretary perez. I will not say there is a certain number that is reasonable. Im confident that mrs. Devos will make an effort to give a reasonable answer. Mrs. Devos, what would your answer be . Will you do your best to answer the questions you receive after 5 00 on tuesday before the possibility of a vote next tuesday. Mrs. Devos i would certainly endeavor to have an answer to every question. Alexander senator baldwin. Senator baldwin i have heard various members indicate that there have been additional rounds for witnesses, or nominees, that have come before this committee in other departments other than education. I perhaps got to propound half of my questions today. Tomorrow, given the of that department, i have many more. Senator alexander is talking about precedent tonight, let me see what the is. I told dr. Price that, in my experience, one round of questions would do it. Of course, senator murray and i followed up. Let me think about that. Senator warren . Senator warren can i ask about the precedent . Can we find instances where people asked for a second round of questions and were refused . Senator alexander i do not know the answer to that. If you go back to president obamas secretaries, there was one round of fiveminute questions. Senator warren as you said in the hearing, we have time for another round. Those were your words. You said, senator warren, you can be the first in the second round. Which i believe to mean had , there been anyone else that wanted to ask a question, they could have. It is that they were satisfied and has no more questions. Senator alexander many of us were not satisfied with the last nominee, but we thought it would be appropriate to defer to the president , and have a secretary in place. You are a very exceptiw professor, and i dont want to get into that kind of our discussion with you. My guess is you asked if there could be a second round, and i said, yes. I think we are the only ones still in the room. We have to bring this to a conclusion. Mrs. Devos, we will not have a second round of questions tonight. Senator warren i want to be clear, this is the first time that anyone has asked for a second round of questions and then refuse . Senator alexander no one said that, only you. Lewis carroll would be proud of that senator warren im sorry, you said that you refused a second round . Senator alexander no, i said that Lewis Carroll would be proud of that. I looks straightforwardly at the process that we had with president obamas education secretaries and we determined we would do the same thing for president elect trumps nominee. If i were to be even more careful i would point out she has spent 50 more time in this hearing that either secretary duncan or secretary king for president obama. She has visited every one of your offices. She asked to go in december. No one may time to see her in december, so she came in january, i believe that is correct. She has received questions from you which she will answer. She has completed the fbi background. We will consider the tax return question at an executive session next week, but whether we change the rules for future nominees, you can decide to do that. We senators do not do that and do not decide to do that. You can have two days to submit written questions. She will do her best to give reasonable answers to them. We will not go forward with a vote next tuesday, unless her Letter Agreement is public by friday, and available for you to review it. That is my decision. I think that is what we will do tonight. We will conclude the hearing by inviting senator murray, if she has any additional questions, to do that, and then i will do some. Senator murray i think that as the definitive answer . Senator alexander as definitive as i can. Senator murray since i only have one question, i will ask one that you will not like. President elect trump was caught bragging about kissing and groping women without consent. He said, when you start, you can do what you want. When you are a star you can do anything. I was very outraged with those comments. That outraged group after a series of women came forward to accuse president elect trump of the kind of behavior that he bragged about on tape. I take this behavior seriously. If this behavior happened in the school, would you consider it Sexual Assault . Mrs. Devos yes. Senator murray one in five women will experience Sexual Assault while in college. We are joined tonight by several Sexual Assault survivors, brave enough to come tonight, because this issue is so important to them. Can you promise them and me that you will not, as in the class, in. Toreign assault. Om secual mrs. Devos if confirmed, i commit that i will be looking very closely at how this has been regulated and handled, and with great sensitivity to those who are victims, and also considering perpetrators as well. Please know, i am very sensitive. Senator murray you will not take back the words that you will reign in the office of civil rights. Mrs. Devos i do not think those were senator murray they have been attributed to you. This is extremely important. Two men and women across the country i hope you will take , back the words of rating in reigning in the office of civil rights. Just two quick things. I want to clarify the issue on whether or not you are on the board of your mothers foundation. I have 990 through 2013 where you are listed as Vice President and a board member. Was that a mistake on your part . Mrs. Devos that was a clerical error. I have never made decisions on my mothers behalf. The listing that you were Vice President was incorrect . Mrs. Devos that is correct. Senator hassan i want to go back to the individuals with disabilities in education blog. That is a federal law. Mrs. Devos federal law must be followed where federal dollars are in play. Senator hassan were you unaware that it is a federal law . Mrs. Devos i may have confused it. Senator hassan guarantees to students with disabilities to guarantee they are given a highquality education with their peers one reason it is difficult to have this hearing and fully understand your perspective we do know that children with disabilities have gone with a voucher to their school because of their disability, they have to leave the school, the school keeps the money, and they go back to Public Schools, which have less resources for them. Many of us see this as a potential for turning our Public Schools into warehouses. The most challenging kids with his abilities. Or, the kids who parents cannot afford to make up the difference between the doctor and the cost of education. I would urge you to become familiar with the individuals with disabilities in education act. Im concerned that you seem so unfamiliar with it, and use them to support vouchers rules that have not honored, that have made students find a way their rights that this law enforcers. That is very troubling to me. Mrs. Devos if confirmed, i will be very sensitive to the special needs students. Senator hassan it is not about sensitivity. It is ensuring that every child has equal axes to a highquality education. The reality is the vouchers that you support to not always come out that way. That is why it is something we need to continue to explore. Senator alexander thank you to senator hassan and senator murray. Thank you to mrs. Devos for being here. You have set a record in terms of the last three education secretaries. I will put in the record, with consent, a letter from the log cabin republicans, who wrote to me as chairman of the committee, about a suggestion that you might be antigay. According to the president , he said, mrs. Devos has a history of working with and supporting gay individuals. When her Senior Adviser was accosted for making his sexual preference public, mrs. Devos put an end to the harassment. Mrs. Devos should be commended for proving that differences of opinion relating to Marriage Equality to not equate to antigay. The log cabin republican urge her swift nomination. Senators would like to ask additional questions to our nominee. That is due at the and the the day on thursday. For all other matters, the record is open for 10 days here at the next hearing of our committee will be tomorrow morning at 10 00 for the nomination of tom price to health and Human Services. Senator warren i also have a letter from the massachusetts charter Public Schools system, raising questions of accountability. They are strong supporters of Charter Schools, but very concerned with mrs. Devos record with Charter Schools. Senator alexander thank you. It will be included in the record. This meeting will stand adjourned. [gavel] senator alexander let me on adjourned unadjourn the hearing. Mayad a suggestion that three of us had the right to ask you to call minority witnesses before the committee. Addresswe could questions. Maybe that is a way through this. I would make that request. Senator alexander that request has been made earlier, i have denied it. We have not done that in my experience. Our tradition is to invite the nominee, ask the nominee questions, which we have done and go through the process. I appreciate your request, but i will not agree to it. The committee is adjourned. [gavel] folks you have to exit the building. Confirmation hearings for president elect trumps continued this week. Tomorrow, health and Human Service nominee congressman tom price goes before the Senate Health education labor and Pensions Committee. That is live here on cspan on 10 00 a. M. Eastern. On cspan two, the confirmation hearing for the nominee to lead the Environmental Protection agency, Scott Pruitts life at 10 00 eastern