i'm destiny. i'm 8 years old. >> i'm judah. i'm 10. >> i'm hayden. i'm 6. >> i'm heather, i'm 18. >> i'm courtney, i'm 15. >> i'm shawn, i'm 26. >> i would love to have more children. after leviticus, we haven't had any but we surely would embrace them if god would send them. >> we're familiar with the octo-mom and the duggar family. it seems like every time i turn around, parents with lots of kids are multiplying -- i'm not sure rabbits could keep up. the woman you just saw is part of a fast-growing christian movement called quiverfull. she and others believe that family planning should be left in god's hands. here with me now are rachel scott, a mother of eight. "the author of "birthing god's mighty army." and kathryn joyce, author of birthing god's mighty warriors. and kathryn joyce, author of "quiverfull: inside the christian patriarchy movement," and vyckie garrison, a mother of seven and quiverfull dropout. a lot of people don't even know what quiverful is. since you wrote about it, why don't you tell us what it is? >> sure. well, quiverful is a movement largely of conservative christians, largely home schooling evangelicals who believe that all for most forms of contraception are wrong and that christian families should leave the fertility in the hands of god. that they should do this as both a measure of their faith and obedience in god and also, some different books by leaders of the movement pointed out far come lateral benefit of many children in the movement. they follow psalm 127 where they take the name quiverful from and generally they follow strict definitions of patriarchal gender roles with submissive wives and headship of the husbands. so wives be submissive to their husbands. >> rachel, you're a quiverfull person. >> yes. >> are you a submissive wife too? >> i believe that we have an equal partnership. in matters of dispute, i would say we make decisions as a team. i think submission is a little bit misunderstood. >> so it's not the total patriarchy that is painted. as in the film piece that i saw. >> i don't believe that is a total accurate depiction of quiverful actually, no. >> vyckie, do you agree with that? >> i believe that there's the potential there, the teaching each family i believe carries it to their own -- i mean, in our family, it went to the extreme. and so depending on the personality of the family that you're involved with, you can get pretty carried away with it. >> some husbands are more patriarchal than others. >> absolutely. >> okay. all right. that makes sense. rachel, your book is called "birthing god's mighty warriors." it makes it sound like a crusade. is it? >> in a sense. the bible talks about us all being in a spiritual battle with light and darkness. so yes, we believe that one of the things that god has called us to do in marriage is to birth children. that's what be fruitful and multiply was a commandment to the entire earth to birth children. it's not a new concept. it's been here since the beginning of time. >> to what? >> to give birth children, i believe that's something we should do in all marriages, not just christian marriages. >> but a lot of that scripture was written by men, correct? >> that was written by god, yes. >> and he's a man. are you sure of that? >> yes, i believe he is. i do believe he loves women. very much. >> certainly does, all those kids, just shows you. i'm so -- i have to jump to something before i get to the political part of this. who breast feeds these kids. you have how many? >> i have eight, i breastfed them all. >> really? >> yes. >> do you have twins of triplets in there? >> no. >> you gave birth with your lovely figure still and popped them out and breastfed these children one at a time. did you not breast-feed? >> i did. but i only had one. it's a cakewalk with one. >> but it's still a great experience. >> it is a great experience. i don't know if i could do it eight times, though. >> i didn't pop mine out. i had a very difficult time. very difficult. >> how many do you have? >> i have seven children. >> and they were all difficult births? >> five by c-section. it was quite a -- >> what do you say to people, maybe kathryn can answer this, who say that you're having children for political purposes? that you're trying to, as you call it, repopulate the world with babies that you produce. and that it's not just about having a baby to have children and have a family life but to make a point almost, to re-create the earth. >> for us, i believe we're just -- we believe that we're being blessed with these children. we're not doing it for a political purpose. we're doing it for a spiritual purpose in the sense that we want to be on god's team. he said to populate the earth and we love god. so that child's a blessing so we enjoy that blessing. >> do you feel the same way about islamic families doing that? to repopulate. do you think that it is god's will? for them to also do what you're doing? >> absolutely. when god said be fruitful and multiply, it was not for a specific religion. it was for people of the earth. >> i see. kathryn? >> i think there's truth to what both of you are saying. i think for families having this large number of children, i don't think political motivations really could compel anybody to raise and nurture eight children and usually home school them as well. however, in a lot of the literature of the movement, which i reviewed for my book, including rachel's book, there is a sense that in addition to quiverfull being god's will and god's law, to be fruitful and multiply and to trust god to give you as many children as you can handle, there's a secondary set of motivations written in there by the leaders, saying, if several generations of christians put their fertility in god's hands, within a few decades, we'll have a vast group of people. and we're going to be able to enact some of the culture war principles that we're fighting for. >> what do you say to that? >> well, right now, the fastest growing segment of society is latinos. if you look at the figures, i think it's one in four. >> they're mostly christians. >> catholic? i don't know what they are politically -- >> well, catholics are christian. >> yes, but they're not all predominantly catholic any more. latinos, i would say historically, they have been. but now things are changing. they're the fastest-growing segment of who is actually producing in our society. >> are you trying to keep up with them? >> no, not necessarily. but i do believe that christian influence will gain more power as we have more children. but i wouldn't say -- she said it's not really the motivation. we're more just doing it because we know it's something god wants us to do. if we change society, great. it would be great. there are things in our society, our country needs an answer right now and family's answer really is. there's nothing greater than a family. i believe it's the answer for our world. >> it's a very expensive thing. >> absolutely. >> to have all the children in this culture is very, very expensive ,to say the least. what does your husband -- do you work? >> yes. i work part-time. my husband is a construction executive. for us we live in an affluent area. it hasn't always been that way, but we paid our dues. and that sort of thing. >> when we come back, i want to hear more about the physiological part of this because i personally wasn't even thrilled with one pregnancy, much less eight or 18. but that's me. stick around. there could be even more babies when we get back. >> i believe conceiving children and giving birth is an act of worship, definitely. because i believe you're submitting to god's goal for the planet. and god's goal for you as a woman. and to me, it is the most beautiful thing to watch unfold just about in the whole world. and that's when a woman embraces her own motherhood. there's eight of them here. and here we have mekai. and the one crying just came home, jonah. and right there is, who's that? >> that's malia. >> this is isaiah. this is noah. jeremiah is right here. >> we're back talking with families with multiple children. now i'm sure you're all familiar with the octomom. right? you are all familiar with her. she has 14 children at this point. she has no husband. she was on welfare. and she's not part of the movement, i don't think. what would you say to her, rachel? how would you help this woman? she has no husband, no income. >> what would i say to her? >> yes. what should she do? >> i think she should pray a lot. >> i think she does that. >> trust god a lot and get as much outside help as he is possibly can because to do what she's doing by herself is incredible. she really needs a lot of people to help her. >> would you take her into your fold? into your quiver people? >> oh, i'd love to help her, but i think he is lives on the other side of the country from me. >> sure, i can help her. she needs help. >> we'll send her to you. won't we here at cnn? i'm very interested in the physiology of it. i mean, carrying -- you said you had a hard time with that. >> absolutely. >> now you're divorced, as well. >> yes. >> how you managing? >> my oldest daughter, to tell the truth, i relied on her help. >> angel, right? >> yes. angel. and my other kids. we were efficient, extremely organized. we came up with some really creative ideas of how to get it all done. well, how to try to get it all done. we really didn't. we were falling behind in every area. i was falling behind in the home schooling. >> you couldn't keep up. >> i couldn't keep up. >> you couldn't do it? >> my oldest daughter burned out, she was 18. she had just had it. >> she had a suicide attempt. i saw the film piece about her. i think she was overburdened by the work of it. >> absolutely. >> because you couldn't handle it. and then she -- it fell to her and the kid couldn't take it. >> somebody pays the price. somebody pays the price. and i think it's the older girls in these families. >> do you feel your older girls are paying a price? >> i don't. from the very beginning i purposed that my kids would have a life. and they do. they're dancers. they're very active in their school. my daughter is on crew team. for me, yes, they helped. but they have all these other things they do. >> and since you don't practice birth control, and you believe you should have children as long as god wants you to, do you ever get a headache and say, look, tonight, i can't? do you ever say that? >> i don't. >> you don't. did you ever say that, vyckie? >> oh, i was so exhausted. i was burned out. >> you never say -- she was exhausted. >> but i had a vision, i had an inspiration this was my purpose which the lord has given me and i was determined to do it whatever the cost. if it was going to kill me, i was willing. i was that far into. and it almost did on several occasions. and it was that vision, that extremely inspiring idea of this beautiful, this perfect family. and that is what i was going for. i was really wanting to do the lord's will, his best plan for the family, which i believed was defined in the bible. so there was a very narrow idea of what is a family, what is the right, correct godly family. that's what i was going for. >> it didn't work for you. it worked for you, but not for her. so one size does not fit all in this idea. how many people, kathryn, are into this? >> there have not been any scientific or sociological studies on this. there are no hard numbers. my estimate is it's probably in the low tens of thousands, maybe 20,000 to 30,000 based on different memberships in online forums and associated groups. >> what do you say to people who say it's selfish to keep having these children? there are so many children to adopt. what do you say to those? >> a lot of quiverfull families do adopt. the whole thing about quiverfull is loving children and wanting children from god. a lot of them adopt. they have a few and start adopting. so the more the merrier thing with a lot of the families. and i would consider it myself. i love kids. >> you want to adopt more kids? >> we're thinking about it. from africa. >> how much does it cost the feed them? >> it's expensive. >> you have how many? seven? >> i have eight. >> eight children. and the oldest is how old? >> he's 26. >> so that one is, he -- >> he's grown. >> he's working. >> i have seven at home and a grandchild. >> and the other thing about this quiverfull thing is that you home-school all the children. you're cooking, cleaning, wiping their nose. they get sick in the night. they break a leg. they fall off the swing, and you have to teach them too, and have sex with your husband constantly. i can't take it! i just can't even imagine a day at your house. >> not everyone in the quiverfull movement home schools. i don't. >> you don't do that? >> no, i have done it off and on. but, see what i believe about home schooling, i think you should pray and ask god about it each time. >> how do you have time to coif and put makeup on? and look as good as you do. >> you have to be organized. you know, it is a zoo around the house sometimes. but a lot of times you just have to be an organized mother. >> what is your status right now, vyckie? >> my status? >> yeah. are you married? you're not married. >> no, i am divorced. >> how many children at home? >> five children still at home, two are in college. it's a zoo at our house. we have a great time. because all of the restrictions we have pretty much thrown them away. we have said, let's go for it, be ourselves. and do what comes naturally. we don't have prescribed rules anymore. you have to be this way, this is god's will for you. but it's basically, let's figure out what you're about. >> what is god's provision for divorce? i don't want to be disrespectful. what if you don't get along with your husband? a lot of people get divorced in this country. >> right, 50% or more. >> what happens then? >> in my mind there was no provision for divorce. i believed there was no -- >> no provision for it? so what happens? you're just stuck in a miserable marriage then? >> well, i did not -- i had convinced myself that i was not stuck, i enjoyed it, i was fine with it. but it wasn't. it was when i finally had the near breakdown after my daughter attempted suicide that i had to re-evaluate it all. and i finally had to say, look at the situation actually is, not what i hope it could be, what god could possibly make of it. but what is it actually, and actually i can't take this. it's too much. >> and your children, how are the children doing now that you're out of the quiverfull? >> they're just blooming, blossoming. they're doing awesome. they're having a great time. >> how is angel doing? >> she's doing incredibly better. >> she's doing much better. >> oh, yes. >> kathryn, do you know how many of these quiverfull families split up? >> i don't know how many. but i think i would reiterate what vyckie said. from a lot of the literature, there's a lot of biblical womanhood literature which is kind of educational materials for women in the movement. and it really stresses that divorce is not an option, and that it's your duty to make your marriage work. >> that sounds a little restrictive to me. if you're unhappy, let's say the husband -- this patriarchy thing, let's talk about it. you say you're in an equal relationship with your husband. >> i am, and i don't believe that the -- when kathryn wrote her book, i there is quiverfull, there is home schooler, and then there is this patriarchy thing, which i personally have never heard of. >> who are the ones who listen to their husbands? >> sure. >> i think rachel is -- i'm very glad to hear that you're in an equal relationship. i think in a lot of the movement -- >> she sounds fine. >> i agree. he is sure does. i think in a lot of the movement, there's an overwhelming emphasis on wives' duties to be submissive to their husbands and that can look like a lot of different things that can work. it can look like an equal marriage. does work, but it can also look like abuse. >> you're correct, it could look like abuse to people who don't understand it. there are more people trying to get into this than out of it. the catholic church actually keeps records of people who -- they actually have records on how many people who don't use birth control, divorce, it's 1%. >> if you wanted to get a divorce, though, and have half a dozen kids, you don't have a lot of options there. it's a scary thing. >> right. very hard for women to leave when most of them -- you work part time. i think most people in the quiverfull movement don't have a college degree. >> that's not true. that is so not true. >> the younger women are being encouraged not to go to college. >> oh, maybe in a very, very remote segment. quiverfull has gone mainstream. a lot of people have college educations who decide to have large families. it's everywhere now. it's definitely changing. >> i hope so. >> it's educating people. >> we'll be back in a minute. is your husband good like that >> awesome. >> you're a perfect specimen. >> one of the reasons women are doing this, there's a backlash against feminism because feminism took us out of the home, put us into careers, which was awesome because it won us rights we needed. but god, i believe -- women are coming back. "time" magazine came out with, women aren't happy. we've got it all, tried it all >> too many things to do. >> right. >> too much stress. >> i think, too, answer is the home. women need to get back in the home. >> see, i have to take issue with that because your life sounds very stressful to me. like, you have too much to do without a career. >> yeah, there's balance, though, as long as you're -- >> to me it's less stressful to go to work and have a job than to stay home with 20 kids. >> there's no balance in saying i'll take all the children god will give me. there's no balance in saying i'll continue to reproduce and reproduce. >> i think it depends on your marriage and situation. i disagree. >> how many more would you want to have? >> i would love to have more. as many as god would give me. >> how old are you? >> 48. >> oh, forget it. time to adopt. time to adopt, rachel. you can have nice adoption situations. >> i started a ministry to africa in my garage with a man we met from africa and we're talking to him about getting children from there from his orphanage. >> kathryn? >> i want to jump back a minute if that's okay, regarding feminism. i think it's great that's what you believe and you see god as a feminist. in most of my reporting and reading on this, i would think that was an unorthodoxed view within the movement because a lot of the founding texts of the movements and books written today about this movement are deeply anti-feminist and say that feminism is incompatible with christianity. >> i have to make that the last word. just going to have to subjugate yourself to kathryn. you were very good, though. thank you all very much, ladies. these ladies will be appearing on the show "secret lives of women born to breed." a week from today at 10:00 p.m. on w.e. tv. thanks to my other guests as well and good night, everybody. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com breaking news tonight, live. the florida panhandle. a newborn baby girl sleeping in the same bedroom with her parents, vanishes without a trace. halloween. the story becoming more distorted by the minute. bombshell tonight. in the last hours, cops blast into the home of the baby-sitter. and to their shock, discover a tiny baby shannon. just 11 pounds, trapped, hidden and locked inside a wooden chest. no bottle. no pillow. no stuffed toy. but miracle tonight is 7-month-old baby shannon, alive! behind bars, the baby-sitter whose own little stepson went missing without a trace 22 years ago. he's never been found. oh, yeah. and in the cell next to baby-sitter, mommy. that's right, mommy, who wanted to get rid of her own infant girl, little baby shannon. >> we are the proud papas of a little girl. this is shannon lea dedrick. >> relatives of baby shannon learned that not only had she been found but that she's alive. >> we do not usually get to the happy endings that we had happen here today. >> haddock said shannon was found in a box under the bed of susan baker, her step-aunt. >> the only thing in that box was a blanket and a box of baking soda to cover the odor because she had fouled her diaper, soiled it. >> if you want to see a bunch of grown men cry, tonight we rushed her to the hospital and we all were calling home for a while to let them know we found this baby safe. >> at an emotional news conference today the washington county sheriff talked about finding little shannon alive. >> this box that had a lid on it and also had a had clasp on it. she was in the box -- excuse me. she was in the box for almost 12 hours, in a closed box. and breaking news tonight, live, ohio. cops raid the home of a convicted sex offender accused of yet another sex attack. inside his three-story cleveland home, seasoned detectives stunned. women's bodies hidden throughout. bodies on every floor of the home, even stuffed in the crawl spaces. breaking tonight, the body count rises as the excavation goes on, in addition to the 11 dead women found, so far, in the three-story home of former marine anthony sowell. police now suspect another 14 missing women may have died at his hands. in the last hours, real-life "csi," firefighters, homicide detectives, cadaver dogs -- all back at sowell's home, as they begin to literally tear down the walls. in the search for dead women. and also breaking tonight, two more lady victims identified. 31-year-old tishana culver and telacia fortson, mother of three. positively identified. tonight, relatives of two lady victims with us live. their mother, their daughter, bodies, hidden in this house of horrors for the last year. and in another bizarre twist, we confirm just weeks after sowell's release from the pen, he lists himself on a sex website seeking, quote, a submissive. is this one the ways the former marine trolled for victims? tonight, unsuspected neighbors in shock over an alleged serial killer living amongst them. >> the body count increases in >> the body count increases in the house of horrors in cleveland. >> 11 victims. there were six inside the house and five recovered from the yard. >> they describe it, after the fact, as a smell of death. of rotting flesh of dead bodies. >> we received a phone call from a resident that said, councilman, there's a foul odor that's coming from across the street. and it smells like a dead person. not dead meat, not dead animal, dead person. >> you could smell the stench a block away. >> literally going to rip this home apart. they're going to tear down the walls. they're going on check every inch. they will make sure that nothing else is inside of this house. that there's no more evidence and for sure there are no more bodies. >> the bodies buried in the ground decompose eight times slower than a body left in air. so we had two in the third floor out in the air, we had two bodies under dirt, and we had five buried in the yard. so they're all decomposing at different rates. >> they're going to go back to the house and dig a little deeper because of her skull and we need to find out where the rest of the body is at. good evening, i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. bombshell tonight, live, the florida panhandle. a newborn baby girl sleeping in the same bedroom with her parents, vanishes without a trace. halloween. the story becoming more distorted by the minute. bombshell tonight. in the last hours, cops blast into the home of the baby-sitter, and to their shock, discovered a tiny baby shannon, just 11 pounds. trapped, hidden, and locked inside a wooden chest. no bottle, no pillow, no stuffed toy. but the miracle tonight is, there is a god. 7-month-old baby shannon alive. >> shannon dedrick was found in a 2x3 foot cedar chest underneath a bed. understand, under the bed, the box shoved in the back and a lot of material in front of it. to see if anyone was looking. >> she's been missing for five days and she's so tiny, we just expected the worst. >> they learned that shannon was alive as she was brought into the room by the sheriff and gave the baby an emotional welcome back. >> cops say they found baby shannon dedrick lying in a 2x3 foot cedar box. shoved under a bed. stashed there for 12 hours. the baby-sitter/aunt is charged in this. she has a violent criminal past. and now we're hearing and just hours ago cops charged files against baby shannon's mom, the one who reported her missing halloween day. >> just hours ago investigators weren't even sure if baby shannon was still alive. now she's found alive and well, reunited with her family. >> i was immediately taken to the northwest florida community hospital here in chipley where she was examined by the local doctor. shannon is currently located at the hospital and we understand that she's in good condition. >> straight out to will glover, joining us from the panama city, "news herald." will, what happened? what led cops to storm the home of the baby-sitter? >> well, apparently, nancy, this morning a story about an e-mail that ms. baker had sent to governor charlie crist detailing allegations of abuse. had piqued the interest of law enforcement. were able to maybe, perhaps, prod them along and they decided to go back out to ms. baker's house out in rural washington county. >> right. >> about 8:30 last night, they went and received consent to search the house. at the back of the bed and pushed back behind things and no one could see them was a 2x3 cedar chest. inside, when they opened the latch they found alive and well baby shannon. >> you know, it's a miracle. and it's my understanding, to you, clark goldband, the baby -- it's not just a cardboard box under a bed. this child was in a wooden chest. take a look at this. locked down. it's like a cedar chest. and nothing to eat. nothing -- of course she can't eat. she's only 7 months. no bottle, no toy, nothing. in fact, they had put baking soda in the box because the baby would poop and the baby had been in this box for many, many hours locked inside a box, clark goldband? >> 10 to 12 hours, nancy, is what law enforcement is saying. and you are right, that is a thick two-foot by three-foot chest and you have to wonder exactly how much air that child had been getting, although law enforcement did say in a press conference the child did receive some form of oxygen. >> joining me right now is a very special guest, kandis boyer. this is baby shannon's grandmother. ms. boyer, thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >> where is the baby tonight? >> well, she is safely in the arms of a wonderful couple in a medical house. she is in the custody of the state of florida. and she's just in wonderful health. she has a clean bill of health. and she's beautiful. i spent three hours with her today. >> and i understand you have quite a drive to get to your little grandchild. how far did you go to get to her today? >> yes. today, well, it took us about 14 hours to get here. 875 miles. >> 700 miles. grandmother -- >> 800. >> 800 miles. nearly 900 miles. she's driven to get to this baby. ms. boyer, whose mother are you, the mother or the daddy's? >> chrystina mercer is my daughter. >> okay. she is behind bars tonight. why in the world would she want to give her baby to the baby-sitter? >> well, as confused as tina is, i -- i -- i have to tell you, she has emphatically stated that she did not and would not ever harm her child. and in my whole heart believe that she was manipulated into this situation. >> what about it, marc klaas? what do you think, mommy manipulated? >> well, i -- it's against every maternal extinct i've ever heard of to give up your child and then report it missing. this is one the craziest stories i've ever heard in my life. >> well, all i know is this, marc klaas, this baby is alive. but it has been locked for 12 hours in a wooden chest. no bottle. no toy. nothing. police find the baby. today, washington county sheriffs, congratulations. we are taking your calls live. with us, baby shannon's maternal grandmother. mommy behind bars with the baby-sitter who has a record of her own. >> she was in the box for almost 12 hours in a closed box. shannon was immediately taken to the northwest florida community hospital here in chipley where she was examined by the local doctor. shannon is currently located at the hospital and we understand that she's in good condition. shannon dedrick was found in a 2x3 cedar chest underneath a bed. this box had a lid on it and also had a hasp on it. >> authorities are planning to charge the baby-sitter, her husband, and the baby's own mother in the disappearance of that little girl. >> haddock says shannon was found in the box under the bed of susan baker, her step aunt. they believe she had been in the box from around 8:00 wednesday morning. >> susan baker, the baby-sitter, also sending an e-mail to the governor of florida charlie christ, pleading with him just a few weeks ago to save the child. >> the family is joyous right now. >> my life will be a lot better now that i know that she's safe. >> when we rushed her to the hospital, we was all calling home for a while to let them know we'd found this baby safe. >> i've got in my hand here the letter that this so-called baby-sitter sent to the governor complaining about these parents. this had clearly been in the work for some time. but how do you convince the birth mother to give up her 7-month-old baby girl? take a look at this e-mail to the governor. "the baby's being abused. i have seen the dad pick her up and shake her because she cries. others in the home have also shaken the baby. she accuses the parents of smoking heavily and doing dope, dealing their food stamps for drugs. all around the baby." joining me right now, special guest, dr. robert cartwright, out of atlanta. pediatrician. dr. cartwright, if a little baby, this -- i mean they told me when i brought the twins home, not to even have somebody that smoked around them because it could induce s.i.d.s., sudden infant death syndrome. and here they are smoking pot, according to this source, and heavily smoking cigarettes around the baby, that we know of, much less shaking the baby? >> absolutely. this is something that really is outrageous and we really encourage parents never to smoke around their children. certainly that applies to regular cigarettes, but smoking marijuana is even that much worse. are there certainly plenty more chemicals and toxins that are in marijuana smoke as compared to cigarette smoke. neither is good. we certainly know that cigarette smoke is a risk factor for sudden infant death syndrome as you have mentioned. it's a risk for other conditions. ear infections. sinus and nasal issues. asthma, other lung diseases. >> and you know, dr. cartwright, the list goes on and i will not even mention the fact that the baby is locked inside this cedar chest. you know back out to you, will glover with the panama city "news herald." a lot of e-mails and phoners are calling in that this looks more like a coffin. what about that, will glover? >> i would agree. it is very small. it's more like a -- almost like a larger jewelry box, if you ask me. and she tucked it back there and apparently would put the baby there every time the cops would inquire about anything. >> this is just sick. we are talking your calls. out to diane in florida. hi, diane. >> caller: hi, nancy. i love your show and your twins are beautiful. >> thank you. >> caller: my question is, exactly how was baby shannon breathing in that locked box? >> good question. what about it, will glover? how was the baby breathing? >> there apparently were some holes that were poked in to parts of the wooden box that would allow the baby to breathe, and, of course, now the baby was also found under a bed, back against the wall with stuff covering, surrounding this chest. >> this is a miracle. this is a miracle. look at this baby. rosy, keep it on a full screen. look at the baby. she's absolutely gorgeous. when i think of what could have happened to this child -- and out to you, pat brown. it sounds like they poked holes in the box like it's a fifth grader's science experiment with a bug or a rat and you poke holes so it can breathe. >> well, exactly. this baby-sitter wasn't concerned about the baby. this is an object to her. whether it lives or dies, doesn't matter as long as she gets to play her game, get attention and do whatever she wants. >> bethany marshall, remember the baby-sitter's little 6-year-old stepson's body has never been found. >> i think this baby-sitter had a preoccupation with getting the baby away from the mother in order to have the mother's attention all to herself. i've treated women like this in my practice. and they're envious of babies. they resent them and they want to get rid of them. y8 we're going to take you straight back to baby shannon's discovery. but first out to michael board, woai radio with breaking news. what can you tell me about the latest at the killeen, texas, shooting, michael? >> we now know that major malik hasan, who shot and killed 11 people on ft. hood here in texas this afternoon, before he was killed, was actually going to be deployed later this month. he was set to be deployed out to iraq and this was going to be his first deployment. that talks a lot about his mindset, although we don't know exactly what triggered this tragic shooting on ft. hood. we do know, sort of, what was going on in his mind when he pulled two handguns and started firing wildly into this crowd which is here at this readiness facility here at ft. hood. >> i was told they were m-16s, is that true? >> no, it's handguns. the m-16s is what the infantrymen would use. since he's major, he's a army officer, they were two handguns. >> so they were not m-16s. how many dead? >> no, they were not m-16s. >> michael board, how many dead? >> a total of 12 dead, including major hasan. that death toll is probably going to rise later this evening. there were two of the people who were wounded who are in very critical condition. one woman who was apparently shot in the face. >> oh. >> reports that she might have already passed. we're trying to confirm that, but nancy, expect the death toll to rise tonight. >> and let me ask you this, did hasan have a family he was leaving behind, if he were to deploy to iraq? >> that's not clear yet. i know he's from virginia. he comes from -- apparently he comes from a family that's an islamic family. they did not approve of him joining the army. i do not believe he had a family that he's left behind. but you know, that's all going to come out as the investigation continues into this. >> with us michael board, woai news radio. and michael board, very quickly, at first the media was told that there were three shooters, but it's my understanding there's only one, hasan. >> that's what it looks like. there is still one person who is being questioned, but several people that were questioned earlier today have already been released. it looks like major hasan was the only shooter. okay, everybody, we're taking your calls live. i want to go back to baby shannon's discovery. we'll bring you the latest regarding the mass shooting at ft. hood, that's killeen, texas, as it comes in. as you know, 31 shot, 12 known dead. many of them in critical condition. in the hospital tonight. i want to go back right now to the maternal grandmother of baby shannon. she's with us tonight. kandis boyer. but first unleash the lawyers. mickey sherman, veteran criminal defense attorney, author of "how you can defend those people?" and renowned attorney out of new york, richard herman. let's see sherman and herman up on the big screen. there they are. all right, herman, i don't know what you're -- thanks. i don't know what you're smiling about, but i would like to know how you can weave the story of mommy was manipulated. she didn't know what was happening. >> well, first, let me thank marc klaas for doing an incredible job discovering, helping in the discovery, five days after the report of missing. that's phenomenal. thank god there's a healthy baby here. this is -- >> herman, please answer the question. >> this is an aunt who has had this baby on many occasions in the past. the baby has slept there. she took the baby to the doctor. >> put herman on the screen. not a locked wooden chest. >> this is nothing more than a family member taking a child for a period of time. they got it wrong. baker is a hero. >> really? let me ask you this, sherman. where does the 911 call from mommy fit in? >> i'm not so sure she's a hero. these are wacky people, simple as that. >> that's your defense? you are going to stand in front of a jury and say, they're wacky? >> these crimes are often prosecute based on the result. thank god that nobody got killed or nobody's dying here. >> you know what -- >> okay? that's the best defense. >> -- b.s. and i am holding my tongue, all right? don't start trying to tell me there's not a prosecution because the baby happened to live. you know what, that is thanks to god. this is definitely a miracle. but huh-uh. no, no, no, no, no. they can be forgiven while they are behind bars. but what i want to figure out and now the grandmother is with me. kandis boyer has driven nearly 900 miles to get to her baby granddaughter. ms. boyer, you just told me that your daughter, baby shannon's mother has said, quote, so many different things. like what? what is he is saying? >> for one, that she didn't know where her child was. for two, that she did not harm her child. and the stories were always different. she's very confused. very confused. and you know, but we're going to stand behind my daughter. i love my daughter deeply and we're behind her 100%, no matter what she has to go through. >> right. well, she is very, very lucky to have you for a mother, ms. boyer. but i don't see how those stories are different. what does she say in one story that was different from another story? >> well, for instance, she took the baby out for a walk at one time, went for a walk, came back, didn't have the baby. another story, 30 seconds later would be i went for a walk at this time and came back and put the baby to bed, woke up, she was gone. just so many different stories that -- it's unbelievable how confused my daughter is. >> go ahead, ms. boyer. >> but she has always -- she's always had this confusion, mentally confusion problem. she's always -- she's been to numerous counseling over the years. she needs help and she's going to get the help she needs now. >> ms. boyer, is the man on the birth certificate actually the biological father? because we've been told he's not. that they just did that to get food stamps. >> i do not know that. i do not know that at all. >> back to you, clark goldband. now those are different stories. what was the story they told police when they made that 911 call? >> well, the mom told law enforcement simply that she went to sleep around 3:00 a.m. woke up around 11:00 a.m. shannon was gone. even though she was sleeping in the same room just feet away. >> okay, pat brown, you're the criminal profiler. mommy manipulated? >> might have been manipulated, but i'm also seeing pathological lying. it's not a matter of confusion but it's a problem, you try one story and you get that -- that doesn't sound too good and you change your story. i think she finally went with the haleigh cummings story because it worked for them so she's thinking it will work for me. >> to bethany marshall. psychoanalyst. author of "deal breakers." joining us out of l.a. i'm not buying it. >> no. >> this grandmother is standing behind her daughter and i appreciate that, but i don't believe what the girl is saying because she's told so many different stories and the story she told the police is a completely -- a completely third edition. now we're hearing she wanted to get rid of the baby so she gave the baby away. >> i think this baby's mother has a long history of acting confused to her own mother in order to avoid responsibility for what she's really done. and in this case what she did, she gave her own baby away. she had no maternal instinct, as marc klaas said, toward her own child. i think she allowed herself to be manipulated by the other woman who resented the intrusion. >> wait, i have to take issue with that. >> yes. >> you don't allow yourself to be manipulated. if you're allowing yourself to be manipulated, you're not manipulated. you're going along with a scheme. and bottom line, this baby nearly died, stuffed into what looks to be a wooden coffin hidden up under a bed, draped with material, covered up so police can't find it. this was not a matter of giving the child away to be adopted or else they would have not lied to police and put the baby in what looks to be a coffin. out to the lines. celiste in texas. hi, celiste. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> what's your question, dear? >> caller: i watch your show all of the time and i appreciate what you do and god bless the men that found that baby, but one of the questions that's been answered about the baby's abuse, but you look in that baby's eyes and you can tell that it's not a happy baby. a happy baby has happy eyes and this baby does not have happy eyes. >> good question. dr. cartwright, you've looked at the baby via film. how does the baby look to you, quickly? >> well, it certainly looks somewhat healthy but i would counter the argument that this child is really healthy. the child looks malnourished. the child has a large head compared to the rest the child which would indicate a lack of nutrition. and i would agree with the caller. i think that the child's eyes don't look that great. >> we'll be right back with dr. cartwright taking your calls. tonight, our family album. here are photos of the twins. lucy and john david. this is immediately after their birth. and i do not believe that they would be turning 2 this week if not without your prayers. and in connecticut, here's vicky and 2-year-old daughter eva dressed as a tiger for halloween. texas friends, high school teacher shelly and teen daughters margaret and macy. cheerleaders. a beautiful wedding photo of georgia friends, chris and robin. looking on, kentucky friends of the show, linda, brian, kayla, michael and furry friends, jazzy and rooster. they never miss a show. we have recovered 11 victims. we have recovered ten bodies and one partial skeleton from the imperial avenue address. one autopsy is still being completed at this time. but they are all african-american women. seven died of ligature strangulation and one died of manual strangulation. two, the decomposition of the body precludes accuracy sometimes and we're diagnosing that as homicidal violence in two cases and the last case, the autopsy is ongoing. it does not appear to have a ligature or what would be a case of manual strangulation or homicidal violence. so that's 11 victims. there were six inside the house and five recovered from the yard. >> straight out to dan haggerty with wews. i understand that police now think that 14 more missing women may be dead at the hands of former marine sowell. >> well, right now we know from his house in cleveland, it's 11 bodies. it's ten bodies and one skull. there is something more to be found here. police are back at the house tonight and they will be back there tomorrow and the next day. the fire department is with them. cadaver dogs. they're knocking down the walls. they are look pretty much for anything that we can find, a long road for them, especially now that they're even naming -- a third victim has been identified, a 31-year-old, who actually lived on the same street where anthony sowell lived. she was never reported missing at all. we just got back from her family's home. they still live on that street. this is 45 minutes ago, and we talked to her four kids. she has four children. she's been missing for a year. they thought she was with her boyfriend down in akron. never reported her missing. in fact, the police notified them. we know this was a dna identification. >> and to stacy, our producer on the story, what else can you tell us? >> let me tell you about the other victim they have identified today, nancy. her name is 31-year-old telacia fortson. she went missing in june of this year. she is from east cleveland and we have found out that in order to make a positive id on her, cops had to take dna from one of her small children. >> so she leaves small children behind. speaking of the victims. 11 lady victims that we know of so far. the excavation, tearing down, literally tearing down the walls of his home, set to start looking for more dead ladies. there's the possibility tonight that 14 more women may be dead. and at the hands of former marine anthony sowell. that would raise the tally to 25 dead women. with me right now, very special guests, joining us at their family home, barbara carmichael, the mother of victim tonia carmichael. also with her, donna carmichael, her daughter. also joining us, deborah williams, the aunt of victim talacia fortson, her body identified today. first, to barbara carmichael, the mother of murder victim tonia carmichael. and as they are speaking, rosy, i would like you to show those beautiful photos we have of tonia carmichael. look at that smile. look at her. to her mother, barbara carmichael. ms. carmichael, thank you for being with us. when did you learn your daughter was one of the victims allegedly of anthony sowell? >> tuesday. and thank you for having us. it was tuesday afternoon. >> wednesday. >> was it wednesday? >> uh-huh. >> the days are melting together here lately. wednesday afternoon. >> you know, ms. carmichael, i know how that feels when the days all -- time just seems to stop and everything starts blending together. >> right. exactly. >> ms. carmichael, would you tell me about your little girl? would you please tell me about her? what was she like growing up? >> she's always been a beautiful person to me, of course. very lively, very active, very fun-loving, outgoing and friendly. i used to tell her, don't be so friendly to people that you don't know but this was the way that she was. growing up i had to kind of watch it, keep tight reins on her like you have to do with most children, but she grew up to be a lovely adult. she had three children who she dearly loved, devoted her life to caring for herself. >> really? she brought them up on her own? >> by herself. >> and she had, i believe, two girls and a boy, right? >> right. the oldest girl is 37. middle girl is 32. her son is 24. >> and with us tonight is donna carmichael. this is tonia's -- one of her daughters. donna, if you could, give me one of your most vivid memories of your mother in life? >> the most vivid thing was, wow, there's so many. it's hard to pick one, but i'll just say when she says, clean the dishes, clean the dishes. >> you know what? i'm just thinking about my little girl lucy and my little boy and how she must feel even though you're all grown up, looking down on you from heaven and realizing you're going to have to go on without your mother. with me right now is deborah williams. she's the aunt of victim telacia. her body identified today. telacia fortson. ms. williams, thank you for being with us. when did you learn that your niece is allegedly one of sowell's many, many victims? >> today about -- i guess about 1:00, 1:30. it was very hard, but we got to keep going, and we got to constantly pray for other families. and, you know, stay strong for the children. she has three small children. >> how old are her children? >> the oldest one is six. the other one is 4 1/2, and the other one is 2 1/2. -d-d-d-d-d-d