Service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. Next on book tvs Author Interview program after words, photographer Matika Wilbur, speaks about her efforts through her photography. To shift how native americans are viewed. Shes interviewed by American University professor elizabeth rule. After words is a weekly Interview Program with relevant guest hosts interviewing top nonfiction authors about their work. My name is dr. Elizabeth rule. Im a citizen of the chickasaw nation and assistant professor at American University. And im so excited to sit down today to talk to Matika Wilbur about her new publication, project 562. Shes an acclaimed photographer, a fierce advocate for Indian Country, and also newly published author. So welcome, atika. Oh, thank you so much, elizabeth, its nice to be here. My name is Matika Wilbur. Im from the spin amish and tyler tribe. And i am the creator, the creator of project five, six, two, changing the way we see native america is as well as the cohost of the all my relations podcast. So thanks for having me. Absolute lutely absolutely. So lets just dive right into it. It was such a pleasure to your book and ive actually following your work several years now and so its, so exciting to have something out in the press that people get their hands on and have opportunity to look at your incredible as well as interviews that accompany each of the photographs. And so really at the heart of this project is an intervention into the representation of Indigenous Peoples in the United States. Can you tell us little bit about what inspired you to take on this particular topic and to use photography as a mechanism investigating this material . Yeah, so well im actually im trained as a photographer i studied photography in school, but after after college was working in los angeles and the elders in my community, they said to me, you, whitaker, wed really like you to come home and work with youth in our communities. So i raised in this venomous tribe in, washington state, and my dads tribe is, tulalip. And so some of the elders in my community said, can you come home . And teach photography, teach this, the young people, what youve learned . And so i came home, i started working with kids and i was, you know, i was like 25 at the time and i wasnt super enthusiastic about working with at the time and. And they asked me to put together a curriculum that represented our people, you know, because at the time and and still to this you know most textbooks represent native people represent its in our perspective it dont represent us in a post 1300 context. You which is to say that most people in this country have a very stereotypical understanding of what is contemporary indigenous identity and. You know, thats been designed, you know, systemically designed through policy and law for over many years. But also, you know, by hollywood and the war at degrading of native people over the last hundred and 50 years. And so, you know, when it came time me to put together that curriculum, i started looking for a photography books that were published by native people that i could show to my own young people and of course, what i found was an outdated narrative. What you find is photos of about leathered and feathered people, you know, images. And what has curtis coming to mind . And what we know is that those images deeply impact the psyche of native youth. You know, doctors, five Years Research has shown us that when native children exposed to the stereotypical image, their selfesteem. By like 60 . And whats shocking is when image is shown to the white counterpart, their selfesteem is raised. And, you know i certainly didnt escape or express irony in seeing the effects of, you know, while was teaching we buried so many students. Really just like we had so many funerals some unnatural death in my community with our young people and it was so heartbreaking and i remember i would like sit in lodges with the other teachers and wed be begging the creator to help, asking, you know, like, what can we do differently . What have we done wrong . And it was during that time that i realized that if i didnt participate in changing the narrative and in creating a book curriculum, i had cast, you know, like a full curriculum package that i could use to show to young people that really uplifted the complexity of indigenous intelligence that shined a light on some our powerful and, meaningful stories. You know resistance stories, abolitionists stories, but also just like stories from mothers and fathers and relatives and stories that our young people could read and relate to and not feel downtrodden by. You know, that was really the goal of my work was, you know, to create a body of work that i could share with my own people. And that really was the impetus of this project. So wow. That was yeah. Wow. Thats incredible. And again, you know, i just felt so fortunate have the opportunity to finally sit down with this piece. I would encourage all of our listeners today to absolutely check out this book it. In addition to having just these amazing photographs. Right. Also show you is doing that work right of advocating for native communities and really offering this intervention. How were seen right. Native peoples in the public. And yeah, so one of the things that i noticed that, you know, in the book is that theres, of course, tremendous diversity represented. And thats true because we are a diverse peoples, right . We are just inked in accordance with our tribal nations in the areas of cultural practices, language, age, spirituality, even our histories are distinct, of course, and our politics and governance. But in the midst of that diversity and all beauty thats within that, there also several themes that i saw emerging that connect tribal nations across the country and those were around things like food ways, Food Sovereignty the revitalization of cultural practices and language and even the idea of tribal sovereignty. Can you talk about some of those shared experiences that unite Indian Country . Well, as some of the elements where you saw the beauty of diversity across, our native communities. Yeah, well, youre right. Thats there was all people are not a monolith that we all are experience aunties our backgrounds our beliefs are as varied as you know like the forest desert. There. And, you know, i didnt realize how much i didnt know about country until he did this project right. Visiting communities would really opened my eyes. All sorts of incredible experience artists, you know. And in my travels i would get to go all kinds of different places, you know, i get to go. To ceremony. And i to go to places and see like bear dances, which id never seore or hoop dances or precious dances or crown dances or a landscape. You know, id meet birds, singers, id meet folks that participate in Native American Church or folks that, you know, our christians are baptists or you know, i my experiences were so varied and you know that what were talking about with my project 562 is a journey that i went for about a decade so back to, you know, the origin story in 2012 when i started this project, i everything i packed bags and hit the road and since then i have lived in, you know, i lived in a two seater honda. I eventually into the big girl thats my wife pony. She got her name because she likes to back it up. And then i moved into the boujee bay gi, which is a big and i traveled for until the pandemic until 2020. So for eight years. And i started in washington, oregon and california and moved my way till eventually i would go to every i went to alaska. You like a dozen times. I went like over 450 tribes in the United States. The project is called project tribe two, which stands for the number of federally recognized tribes. When i started the project, theres now hundred and 74 and you know. I would certainly there were many things that i learned along the way. There is incredible diversity in Indian Country and. You know, what connects us in. You know, thats a really an interesting question, elizabeth. What can access an indian . I think the reason that we started our podcast, all my relations, so that we could discuss indigenous relationality in my travels, i find that everywhere that i went people had a really and beautiful way of describing their indigenous identity. You know, when i started this project i was really interested in narrative work, but also uncovering what means to be an indian. You cant see me, but im holding up air quotes, you know. And i would ask people that question, what does it mean to be a native person in this century . And when i met john, he said to me, you know, i real like what youre doing here, but i wonr youre asking the wrong question. He said, you know, the only thing an indian has ever known is relocation term, nation and assimilation maybe. You should start asking people what it to become human in their own language. And then what i found is that when i switched to that question, people would start telling me about the deeper parts of their identity and oftentimes they would introduce themselves to me in their language and they would introduce themselves this their traditional understood of themselves, the traditional place based. And what i found everywhere that i went is people identified themselves, their relationship to their place and and that has a deep and knowing way of describing itself, you know as the people the blue green zone or the people of the tall pine or the people that live within the four sacred mountains and those those land based identities, i think would be the Common Thread i found is that, you know, are people are stewards of the land, are people are stewards of these places. And and oftentimes weve been relocated, right. As a as a as a result of like public policy. Weve been relocated and put on reservations. But that doesnt mean our relationship doesnt predate these these colonial understandings. And this colonial. And so i found when people started talking to me their land based identities, i started to put together this Common Thread, which was that, you know, relationality and kinship is integral to indigenous identity and there is no separation from that relationality, you know, and that the work of colonization is individualism and the antithesis. Individualism is relationality. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Wow. Thats thats really beautiful. And thank for sharing us. Sharing with a little bit of insight into how this project has even changed time and your own thinking has transformed, right . As youve gotten deeper and, deeper into it. Thats incredible. I want to build on one of the topics that you brought up, which is federal recognition and. I want to spend some time talking about for our viewers and listeners may be unfamiliar with this concept. So as you mentioned, the title of the book is project five six to with five, six to representing the number of federally recognized tribes that existed within the United States. The time of writing today, as you mentioned as well, that number has risen to 574. But federal recognition is a very nuanced and complicated. And of course, we also that there are Indigenous Peoples like kanaka maoli or native hawaiians who are represented in your but who do fall outside that federal recognition framework. So can you tell us just a little bit what federal recognition is for those who may be unfamiliar and how you have navigated that really important and, interesting topic . Yeah. Well, i want to you guys something i saw on the of my book, its project 562 and youll see in the center of my logo theres a theres a like a dot and then theres a crescent, and a dragon. And i put those there when i first designed the project, you know in coastal village art practice. Its, its all based of learning how to make art like water learning how to be water. And so youll see in the center theres always like a drop of water and then theres a crescent that goes out and a gone that moves from it and its like representative of like the fact that were interconnected but that things always keep moving, you know, like high water keeps going on this continuous cycle and journey. And so i added that to the project when i started because i knew that that this project would be Something Like that like it would just keep moving in and go for a long time. And then i, i knew that i would be at the title would change right there has been concerted efforts by the federal to eradicate tribal identity to eradicate tribes. You know certainly during the indian termination but certainly on contact and and you know this federal statute this federal statute of being a federally recognized tribe is its yeah, its sticky. Its certainly sticky. That would be a hes like a nice way of putting it you know there its like and im certainly not a person that speak to the complexity of what it means to fight for federal recognition when might want to talk to like a wampanoag. Im sure that my friend paula could tell you exactly whats required to become a federally recognized, but i do know that for when i started the project, i needed to have a place to go to. So, you know, i looked at the number of tribes, the United States and tribes with an address that could find. And thats how i named the project. And when i look back on it, i think it might be short sighted. It might have been a little short sighted. You know like i could have gone with any title. I could have just bought like indigenous or something or native or a title that would have been encompassing. But i also wanted to pick a title that would talk about the individual as a of each nation, right and that each nation is its own nation, with its own efforts for sovereignty and selfdetermination and and is working on own projects. You know, i certainly wouldnt want to create a project titled Something Like native america because because then we we kind of swam into the murky waters of. Describing our people in that monolithic way. And so, you know to become a federally recognized tribes means that you a land base, that means that you have a language. That means that you have you can trace your ancestry. And theres other you know, theres other ways that they qualify. And and that number is always changing based off of the primary power of congress. And know what i would find when i was traveling, is that i would also visit with a lot of people in urban indian centers. I would visit visit with folks, you know, in like you said and kind of come the territory. I would also go to visit our toyota and even into like rico and mexico and canada you know the breadth of this work expands beyond whats recognition. I certainly met with plenty of folks who were from state recognized tribes. I pretty much met and photographed anybody that was willing to talk to me. You know, and, you know, in the archives theres about 1200 people that i photographed. And unfortunately, all of them are in the book. You know, im limited by the number of pages and really like the weight and like what is like the, you know, realistic for somebody to carry around in a book. But yeah i the journey certainly me to meet with more folks than just those that federally recognized but certainly a lot of places were right absolute absolutely and. You know, you mentioned that you went out and took photographs of many folks, many of ultimately dont even appear in this. And that was one of the things that i was struck as a reader, was the way that incorporated such a range of perspectives. Right. Talk to both child, women and youth as well as elders as you talk to people who are working in the space of culture. But also in this space of politics, you talk to folks who are very land based, living within their reservation, traditional, traditional territories. But you also, of course, bring in that indigenous component. And so can you tell us a little bit the process, how did you determine who you were going to speak to and who ultimately selected for inclusion in the book. Oh, you know, thats so buried. You know, i, i traveled for years and years and years i photographed people in so different types of settings, know sometimes i would meet folks a conference and photograph them afterwards. I would not know anybody. And i, you know, like i think of when i set off on this journey, i, i heading towards Northern California and. I was like, okay, where am i going to go, you know . And just i really, you know, a very organic approach to this, you know, like the project started in ceremony. The project was guided by relatives and my community ni, you know, oftentimes i put something up facebook and say, like, hey, im going here, does anybody know anything about it . And people would connect me. And then i would stay until id met enough people that i felt like id gotten, you know, like ive done good job of telling a thr communities. With folks from so, you know, i on li straight a western production schedule and you know a lot of producers would of would really like brown at the way that i you know for a lot of reasons not just because i wasnt on a production schedule but because i believe in sharing with my subject. You know, i, i was trained in and western forms of journalism. I really actually feel like western forms of journalism are rooted in ways and, you know, we are taught that if we if we take the photo, if we click the shutter then according to copyright law, the image to me but if i actually believe in the teachings of my ancestors and i follow these traditional potlatch ways, you know, like just like we with our stories, i might have been given the right to sing the song, but doesnt mean it belongs to me and. I feel like the same is true with. The image and with the story of the person like people have been kind enough to let me their photograph but i dont feel like it belongs me. I believe that i share that photo with person and so, you know, in place that i went to each person the next i ask them where they want be photographed. I would ask them like what kind of questions do they want to talk in their interview . I would not presume to know that i that had the most interesting questions. You know like i really wanted people to contribute in a that felt meaningful for them. And so i would ask them like what are some of the issues happening in your community right now . Is there anything you want, me to be sure to cover and people had answers. Y