Both bush and obama to some extent were prisoners of the situation. Onouncer this sunday night q a, Robert Samuelson talks about his columns on business u. S. Conomic issues and the Economic Performance under president obama. Policies that essentially were aimed at buttressing his reputation and legacy and it seemed to me, undermined general confidence. Onouncer sunday night cspans q a. 1976 debate between gerald ford and jimmy carter. Then, jimmy carter and Ronald Reagan in 1980. After that, the debate when al gore in george w. Bush. President gerald ford and former georgia governor jimmy carter debated in philadelphia. It was the first president ial sittingeaturing eight president. Debate, tvend of the interviewers interviewed during an audio loss. This is to hours. Edwin newman, moderator good evening. Im edwin newman, moderator of this first debate of the 1976 campaign between gerald r. Ford of michigan, republican candidate for president , and jimmy carter of georgia, democratic candidate for president. We thank you, president ford and we thank you, governor carter, for being with us tonight. There are to be three debates between the president ial candidates and one between the vicepresident ial candidates. All are being arranged by the league of Women Voters Education Fund. Tonights debate, the first between president ial candidates in sixteen years and the first ever in which an incumbent president has participated, is taking place before an audience in the walnut street theater in philadelphia, just three blocks from independence hall. The Television Audience may reach a hundred million in the United States and many millions overseas. Tonights debate focuses on domestic issues and Economic Policy. Questions will be put byk reynolds of abc news, james gannon of the wall street journal, and Elizabeth Drew of the new yorker magazine. Under the agreed rules the first go to governor carter, that was decided by the toss of a coin. He will laugh he will have up to three minutes to answer one , followup question will be permitted with up to two minutes to reply. President ford will then have two minutes to respond. The next question will go to president ford with the same time arrangements, and questions will continue to be alternated between the candidates. Each man will make a threeminute statement at the end, governor carter to go first. President ford and governor carter do not have any notes or prepared remarks with them this evening. Mr. Reynolds, your question for governor carter. Mr. Reynolds mr. President , governor carter. Governor, in an interview with the Associated Press last week, you said you believed these debates would alleviate a lot of concern that some voters have about you. Well, one of those concerns, not an uncommon one about candidates in any year. Many voters say they do not know where you stand. Now, you have made jobs your number one priority and you have said you are committed to a drastic reduction in unemployment. Can you say now, governor, in specific terms, what your first step would be next january, if you are elected, to achieve that. Mr. Carter yes. First of all, to recognize the tremendous economic strength of this country and set about putting people back to work as a top priority. Tos is an effort that ought be done primarily by strong leadership in the white house, the inspiration of our people, the tapping of the business, agriculture, industry, labor, and government at all levels to work on this project. We will never have an end to an inflationary spiral and well never have a balanced budget until we get our people back to work. There are several things that can be done specifically that are not being done. First of all, to Channel Research and Development Funds into areas that will provide uh large numbers of jobs. Secondly, we need to have a commitment in the private sector to cooperate with government in matters like housing. Investment ofmall taxpayers money in the Housing Field can bring large numbers of extra jobs and guarantee programs fors and housing for older people and so forth to cut down 20 unemployment that exists in the construction industry. Needs anding is our the central cities where unemployment is extremely high. Sometimes among minority groups are those who dont speak english, or who are black, or young people. 40 of the employment. Here, they should channel money into the sharing with private sector and local and state governments to employ young people who are out of work. Another very important aspect of our economy would be to increase production in every way possible, to hold down taxes on individuals and shifted the tax burdens on to those who avoided pity paying taxes in the past. Specific things, none of which have being done now. There is an additional factor that needs to be covered to singly. To make sure we have a Good Relationship between management, business on the one hand, and labor, on the other. Unemployment is very high, we might channel specifically targeted Job Opportunities by paying part of the salary of unemployed people. And also, sharing with local governments the payment of salaries which would let us cut down the employment rate much lower before we hit the inflationary level. That i believed by the end of the first four years of the next term we can have unemployment down to 3 , 4. 5 overall. A controlled inflation rate, and the balance growth of 4 to 6 , around 5 , which gives us a balanced budget. Mr. Reynolds governor in the , event you are successful and you do it you adjusted drop, beckett create additional pressure . What about price controls . We have such a low utilization of productive capacity, the lowest since the Great Depression years. In such a high and employment rate now, 7. 9 , that we have a long way to go in getting people to work before we have inflationary pressures. It will not be easy i would of a givenhe payment fixed income to people unless they are not able to work. Incentives, in we can build up income levels and thee Poverty Level more profitable than work. Mr. Newman mr. President , your response . Mr. Ford i dont believe that uh that mr. Carters been any more specific in this case than he has been on many other instances. I noticed particularly that he did not endorse the humphreyhawkins bill which he has on occasions and which is included as a part of the democratic platform. That legislation allegedly would help our unemployment. Know that would have controlled our economy and would to 30ded 10 billion billion each year, in addition to expenditures by the federal government. It wouldve called for export controls on agricultural products. In my judgment, the best way to get jobs, is to expand the private sector. Where five out of six jobs today exist in our economy. That by reducing federal taxes as i proposed about a year ago when i called for a tax reduction of 28 billion. Three quarters of a to go to private taxpayers and one quarter to the business sector. We could add to jobs in the major metropolitan areas by a proposal that would give tax incentives to business to move into the inter the innercity. And to expand or build new plants so they could take a plant or expand the plant where people are, and people are currently unemployed. We could help our youths with proposals that would give to young people an opportunity to work and learn at the same time, just like we give money to young people were going to college. Those are the kind of specifics that i think we have to discuss on these debates. And these are the kinds of programs that i will talk about on my time. Mr. Newman mr. Gannon, your question to president ford. Mr. Gannon mr. President , i would like to continue for a moment on this question of taxes you have raised. You have said you favor more tax cuts for middle income thoseans, even though earning up to 30,000 a year. That presumably would cost the treasury quite a bit of money and lost revenue. In view of the very large budget debts deficits you have accumulated that are still in prospect, how is it possible to promise further tax cuts and to reach your goal of balancing the budget . Mr. Ford at the time, mr. Gannon, that i made the recommendation for a 28 billion taxcut, three quarters of a to go to individual taxpayers, 25 to american business, i said at the same time that we had to hold the lid an federal spending, that for every dollar of a tax reduction we had to have an equal reduction in federal expenditures. A oneforone proposition. And i recommended that to the congress with a budget ceiling 395 billion, and that would have permitted us to have a 25 billion tax reduction. Fory Tax Reduction Program middleincome taxpayers, i recommended that the congress increase personal exemptions from the 750 per person, to 1000 per person. That would mean, of course, that for a family of four that that family would have 1000 more personal exemption. Money that they could spend for their own purposes. Money that the government would not have to spend. But if we keep the lid on federal spending, which i think we can, with the help of congress, we can justify fully a 28 billion tax reduction. In the budget that i submitted to the congress in january of this year, i recommended a 50 cut back and the rate of growth of federal spending. For the last 10 years, the budget of the United States has grown from about 11 per year. We cant afford that kind of growth in federal spending. In the budget i recommended, we cut it in half. The growth rate of 5 to 5. 5 . With that kind of limitation on federal spending, we can fully justified the tax reductions that i have proposed. It seems to me with the stimulant of more money in the hands of the taxpayers and with , more money in the hands of business to expand, to modernize, to provide more jobs, our economy will be stimulated so that we will get more revenue and have a more prosperous economy. Mr. Gannon mr. President , to follow up a moment. Congress has passed the tax bill which is before you now. Which did not meet exactly the sort of outline you requested. What is your intention on that bill, since it does not meet your requirements . I you planning to sign that bill . Mr. Ford that tax bill does not entirely meet the criteria that i established. I think the congress should have added another 10 billion reduction in personal income taxes, including the increase of personal to 1000. From 750 congress could have done that if the Budget Committees of the congress and congress as a whole had not increased the spending that i recommended in the budget. I am sure you know that in the resolutions passed by the congress, they have added about , bybillion in more spending the congress over the budget that i recommended. So i would prefer in that tax bill to have an additional tax cut and a further limitation on federal spending. This tax bill that has not reached the white house yet, but is expected in a day or two is about 1500 pages. It has some good provisions in some that i have recommended, unfortunately. Havee other hand, when you a bill of that magnitude with those many revisions, a president has to sit and decide if there is more good than bad. And from the analysis that i have made so far, it seems to me that that tax bill does justify my signature and my approval. Mr. Newman governor carter, your response. Mr. Carter well, mr. Ford is changing considerably his previous philosophy. The present tax structure is a disgrace to this country, it is just a Welfare Program for the rich. As a matter fact, 25 of the to theax reductions go 1 of the richest people in this country. And over 50 of the tax credits go to the four pers 14 of the richest people in this country. When mr. Ford first became president in august of 1974, the first thing he did in october was to ask for a 4. 7 billion increase in taxes on our people in the midst of the heaviest recession since the Great Depression of the 1940s. In january 1975 he asked for a tax change, a 5. 6 billion increase on lowandmiddleincome private individuals, a 6. 5 billion decrease on the corporations and the special interest. Vetoedmber of 1975 he the 20 billion tax reduction bill that had been passed in congress. And he came back later in january of this year and advocated a 10 billion tax reduction and to be offset by a 6 billion increase this coming in deductions for social january security payments and for Unemployment Compensation. The whole philosophy of the republican party, including my opponent, has been the pylon taxes on low income people to take them off of operations. In a matter as a matter of fact, since the late 1960s and mr. Nixon took office, we have had a decrease in the percentage of taxes paid by corporations from 30 down to about 20 . We have had an increase in taxes , payrollndividuals taxes, percent up to 20 mr. Mr. This is why tax form is so important. Newman mrs. Drew, your question to governor carter. Ms. Drew governor carter, you proposed a number of new or enlarged programs, including jobs, health, welfare reform, child care, aid to education, aid to cities, changes in Social Security and housing subsidies. Youve also said that you wanna balance the budget by the end of your first term. Now you havent put a price tag on those programs, but even if we price them conservatively and we count for full employment by the end of your first term, and we count for the Economic Growth that would occur during that period, there still isnt enough money to pay for those programs and balance the budget by any any estimates that ive been able to see. So, in that case what would give . Mr. Carter well, as a matter of fact there is. If we assume the rate of growth of our economy, equivalent to what resident johnson, president kennedy, even before the the enemys war if we assume that at the end of the fouryear period we could cut down unemployment to four and half 4. 5 under those circumstances even assuming no , elimination of unnecessary programs and assuming an increase in the allotment of money to finance programs, increasing as the inflation rate does my economic projections, i think confirmed by the house dollars can action be spent in the fiscal year of 1981, which will be the last year of this term. Within that 60 billion increase, they were be fit programs i promised the American People. These are reasonable goals, i would cut back on the rate of implementation of new programs in order to accommodate a balanced budget by fiscal year 1981, which is the last year of the next term. I believe we ought to have a balanced budget during normal economic circumstances. These projections have been carefully made. I stand behind them. If they are slightly on the downside, i will phase in the programs that we have advocated, more slowly. Ms. Drew governor, according to the Budget Committees of the Congress Committees and that you referred to, if we get a full employment, 4 , and allowing for inflation in the programs, there were not be anything more than a surplus of 5 billion by the end of 1981. And conservative estimates of your program would be about 85 billion to 100 billion. How you say youre going to be up to these things and balance the budget . Assumption ise the rate of growth in our economy. Ms. Drew no, they took that into account in those figures. Mr. Carter i believe it is accurate to say that a 5 growth rate in our economy that they projected, a 60 billion ,ncrease that they would spend in that framework it would be fit. There are improvements in the programs. Control over unnecessary spending, obsolescent programs. The present bureaucratic structure, i finally the president , that will be a tough part to revise. To make it manageable for a Budgeting Institute zerobased budgeting which i used four years in georgia, which assesses every Program Every year. Projections we will have a balanced budget by fiscal year of 1981, if i am elected president. Keep my promises to the American People. And its just predicated on very modest, but i think accurate, projections of employment increases and growth in our National Economy equal to what was experienced under kennedy, johnson, before the vietnam war. Mr. Newman president ford. If it is true that there will be a 60 billion surplus by fiscal year rather 1981, than spend that money for all the new programs that governor carter recommends and endorses, and which are included in the democratic platform, i think the american taxpayer ought to get an additional tax break. A tax reduction of that magnitude. I feel that the taxpayers of the ones that need the relief. I do not think we should add programs of the magnitude the governor carter talks about. It seems to me that our tax structure today has rates that e are too high. But a. M. Glad to point out that since 1969, during a Republican Administration, we have had ten Million People taken off of the tax rolls at the lower end of the taxpayer area. And at the same time, assuming that i sign the tax bill that was mentioned by mr. Gannon, we will in the last two tax bills have increased the minimum tax on all wealthy taxpayers. And i believe that by eliminating 10 million taxpayers in the last eight years, and by putting a heavier tax burden on those in the higher tax brackets, plus the other actions that of been taken, we can give taxpayers adequate tax relief. As we look at the recommendations of the Budget Committee and our own projections, there is not going to be any 60 billion dividend. I have heard of those dividends in the past. It always happens. We expected one at the time of the vietnam war, but it was used up before we ever ended the war and taxpayers never got the adequate relief they deserved. Mr. Newman mr. Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds mr. President , when you came into office you spoke very eloquently of the need for a time for healing, and very early in your