Another case study in fast and furious world of contemporary reporting and thomas drake traveled to moscow to visit Edward Snowden. Well talk to drake about that meeting and about his own experiences in revealing secrets the nsa wanted to hold tight and arriving this weekend to a theater near you this is information the world needs to know. We need to crush these guys. A take on wikileaks founder Julian Assange. The man who says there should be no secrets. Im David Folkenflik and this is reliable sources. Today well consider how the news you consume gets to you and how that flow of information can get cutoff and what changes are made in coverage. Take this months Political Drama over the partial Government Shutdown and the del ceiling debate. At times it seemed as if the economic story affecting millions of americans and markets abroad was overshadowed. Joining me here in washington to tease out how the media performed or didnt perform is david gura and michael. How well did they do . I wouldnt give them high marks but i wouldnt say it was all bad. The difference is the press is used to covering political polling. Thats a psychological measure of whats going on. The real story is what was going on in the bond market and you didnt see a lot of top notch coverage. Tell me what you mean by that. The bond market was the real signal as to whether or not there was going to be a default and how serious the idea of a default was. The bond market never blinked during this process. It translated into Political Press corps or broader press corps to translate this into ways the public can comprehend. These things arent easy. When you talk about the debt ceiling and bond market, these are things that most of us arent thinking about on day to b day basis. I think we had this condensed period of a couple weeks where focus was on the deadline at the end of it. Seemed like political story won the day in the end. Theres real drama here in terms of youve got the two chambers of congress at war with each other. Internal divisions within the Republican Party that really drove this seeming stalemate for a long time and there were Enormous Economic implications. The bond markets and question of the impact of the Government Shutdown itself and the question of what would happen abroad faith and full credit of the United States if this happened. Those stories were written. Why didnt they get through if indeed they didnt get through . Its always easier to cover the food fight and the loudest voice in the room. Harder when you have to say here are measurable things and things you really need to Pay Attention to. Breaking through in that clutter is a real challenge particularly now when everything is tweeted out around the world in two seconds. I noticed your own News OrganizationBloomberg News had a poll that they found in a study found in late september that 59 of the people polled believed that the United States deficit had gotten larger. About 10 thought it had gotten smaller. 26 thought it was about the same. The deficit was cut quite considerab considerably. Is that the fault. Public or fault of the press . I think when you have Something Like weve just been through, things become proxies for other thing and theres discontent in this country with fiscal issues. As i said, issues like the debt ceiling are things we dont have to think about all the time and things that were not writing about or talking about all the time. That i think became a proxy for this issue of the deficit and for issues of the debt as well and were hoping to grab people are hoping to grab onto something thats clear and in this case its what happened. So where do you turn as a citizen as opposed to as a reporter if you want things other than specialized reporting and intense reporting of bloomberg, theres reporting that explains and makes clear to me whats going on behind the political clash of the moment. Fortunately there are a lot of different sources out there. You can go to specialized sources online and read things. Its homework. Its not easy. Its not fun. Its very important. Interesting to note, so many people dont understand this. We had michael bennett, senator from colorado in for news make erinterview and he told us before he came to washington he never heard the debt ceiling. He had been in the debt and equities market a lot of time. Its a Foreign Language for a lot of people. We have to do a better job of explaining it. At this point there was an early concern about false equivalence in politics and what was interesting to me as an experiment i interviewed a liberal commentator and a prominent writer for the conservative National Review magazine. They both defined the problem politically as within the Republican House conference. You saw a lot of reporters going from this is a clash between parties to saying theres something happening here where Republicans Party is figuring out where its future lies and this is driving this real political dilemma. Are there challenges of socalled false equivalency equally in the world of economics or in covering the financial angle to this very story . These ledgers dont balance always. Its always important to explore both sides. You have to do that. You shouldnt come down on one hand on the other hand just for the sake of saying its an objective argument when its not. The fight was within the Republican Party. The democrats wanted to maintain status quo. Republicans were trying to change the game. David, one of the things that strikes me about the field of economics and study of finances, its not a hard signs. Were not talking about geometric equations that standstill over time. How do you make sense of it when experts themselves conflict . Its dismal and imperfect. There is a hunger for theories and we would be able to figure things out through them. If i could bring up the debt ceiling again, there was so much press conference of what might happen at the stroke of midnight on the 17th. In fact, that deadline was quite squishy and it was a simple equation. Treasury was dealing with what was coming in in terms of revenues and what was going out. We got hung up on theoretical side of things when it was basics that could have been easily conveyed to people. Dismal and vital. Thank you so much for joining us. When we come back, a whistleblower story. Former nsa official thomas drake talks about his experience being prosecuted by the Obama Administrations Justice Department and his visit with nsa leaker Edward Snowden in russia. I was made to work. Make my mark with pride. Create moments of value. Build character through quality. And earn the right to be called a classic. The lands end no iron dress shirt. Starting at 49 dollars. Is what makes us different. We take the time to get to know you and your unique health needs. Then we help create a personalized Healthcare Experience that works for you. And you. And you. With 50 years of knowhow, and a dedicated network of doctors, health coaches, and wellness experts, were a partner you can rely on today, and tomorrow. Were going beyond insurance to become your partner in health. Humana. Does your dog food have . To become your partner in health. 18 percent . 20 . New purina one true instinct has 30. Active dogs crave nutrientdense food. So we made purina one true instinct. 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Check your credit score, check your credit report, at experian. Com americas number one provider of online credit reports and scores. Dont take chances. Go to experian. Com. When thomas drake saw waste and abuse in the Intelligence Agency that had repercussions for the privacy of u. S. Citizens. The u. S. Government saw it differently. In 2010, drake was charged for crimes under the espionage act. The Obama Administration now used it eight times. Its the same law that was used to indictment former Army Private Bradley manning. Now known as Chelsey Manning and also Edward Snowden. In a report for the committee to protect journalists, former the Washington Post executive editor lynn downey called the Obama Administration on leaks the most aggressive attempt to control leaks since nixon. All charges but one against drake were dropped. He pleaded guilty to excessive use of Government Official computer. I spoke to thomas drake about what the future holds for the information leaked to the press and recent trip to moscow to meet nsa leaker thomas snowden. Thank you so much for joining us to talk. Thanks for having me. Prime minister david cameron, intelligence chiefs here in the u. S. , they have said the snowden revelations have been damaging to National Security of the u. S. And u. K. Why shouldnt american authorities have an interest in protecting National Security secrets . There is an interest in protecting National Security secrets but National Security secrets dont include using secrecy to cover up wrongdoing in violations of Citizen Rights and liberties. We do have rights in this country and democracies our Citizen Rights and citizen liberties. The idea that somehow we need to violate those in order to satisfy National Security i think is a false argument. That false dichotomy created these conditions that i certainly lived in which the government believes that we need access to all of the data and if that data is individual and of citizens then so be it because the National Security takes a prior priori higher priority. After going through internal channels to call attention to what you thought was a soft program at the nsa, you decided to contact the Baltimore Sun on security matters. What precautions did you take to avoid detection as you were talking to her about such sensitive matters . I knew it was a faithful choice. I knew given what nsa was capable of doing that any contact with a reporter by any normal means was going to be probably detected and so i made unanimous contact with her in late february of 2006 via highly encrypted means. Even that was fraught with peril because even encryption on internet can be detected with just the use of it. If i had come out and gone there, i would be fired immediately. How long can you go when you decide to sort of cross the bridge as it were and here im contacting the press on what i believe are issues of vital public interest. And yet they consider it a criminal act. A criminal conduct. Ultimately i was charged under espionage act of all things. You were charged by the Justice Department during president obamas term. President obamas administration, his Justice Department also charged mr. Snowden. What do you conclude about the Obama Administration led by a president who promised transparency and who hailed whistle blowers while running for office about his feelings about the flow of information to the public through the prosecute e press . He charged more whistle blowers and Truth Tellers than all administrations combined for nonspy activities. Some refer it to as a war on democracy. It is highly hypocritical. All of those words aside, his actions speak far louder. Youre right. It did take the Obama Administration to actually charge me. You still work in the computer field but as a former whistleblower, its a different one. What is life like for you now . Quite different than it used to be. I sacrificed a lot. I faced 35 years in prison. I was able to hold off the government. Thats a huge thing. I was able to keep my freedoms. I work now in a very different arena. I Sell Computers to the public. Its quite a different life. I actually had to rebuild it. Not easy. And so what did you learn from your trip to moscow when you met with Edward Snowden, the newest person to disclose classified information from the nsa . I met a fellow whistle blower. I feel extraordinary kinship with him. He committed an extraordinary act of civil disobedience. He recognized that what he was exposing was significant wrongdoing on the part of nsa on an extraordinary scale and had documents to prove it. Wouldnt he have been someone that you would have thought hes compromised National Security . Not at all. No. Even when you were at the nsa itself . No. See this is where this National Security thing gets conflicted. Its a state region and youre not supposed to question it. You dont use National Security to violate the rights of citizens. For the first time in 12 years were having the conversation and discussion about what that balance is supposed to be like. I would argue you can have both. Its not this idea that you have to choose liberty over security. And in fact, i would argue that our fundamental National Security is based on our liberties and freedoms. If we give those up, then we give up who we are as a people. Thomas drake, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us. Youre welcome. Up next, two perspectives on the Obama Administrations crackdown on leaks and its attitudes toward journalists. Ido more with less with buless energy. Hp is helping ups do just that. 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Whose refined taste is best characterized by the company they keep. Well. Say hello to the newest member of the family. The cadillac srx, awarded best interior design of any luxury brand. Take advantage of this exceptional offer on the 2013 cadillac srx, with premium Care Maintenance included. Leaker or whistle blower, the terms evoke a delicate dance and a violent crash. Here with we now in washington, lucy dalglish. And joel brenner, former Inspector General and senior counsel for the National Security agency. You saw that interview i just conducted with thomas drake, a whistle blower for the nsa. What did you make of what he to say of his argument . Drake was involved in he basically lost his point of view in a competition for certain symptoms at the agency. Issue as to who was right about that, he may have been wright. Nothi nothing wrong with the way he conducted that. He decided to leak information to the Baltimore Sun. He was really leaking classified information. I thought it was a terrible thing i thought he was overprosecuted under the espionage act. I thought it was ridiculous. You thought prosecution of him for giving material to Baltimore Sun under 1970 espionage was in itself a wrongful act. Not a wrongful act. Bad politics, bad law. We create people like mr. Drake who have become a force to be adversary when they see what it is like to be attacked by their own government. When you impose the question whistleblower or leaker, very often people can be whistle blowers and leakers. They can be scoundrels and do something useful. We listen to snowden for example all of the public seems to hear is wha