0 -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com that's it for us this hour here in manila. thanks very much for watching. "piers morgan live" starts now. we'll see you again at 10:00 eastern time. this is "piers morgan live." welcome to the viewers in the united states and around the world. tonight a tale of two presidents, one cut down in the prime and another struggling to preserve the legacy as the nation remembers john fitzgerald kennedy. how will we remember this president? will barack obama's legacy be a failed health care law. is obama care his katrina? >> i'm not a perfect man and i will not be a perfect president. >> and the president survived clinically and what about the second term agenda? i'll ask the man that wrote a book on him and one of barack obama's biggest survivors. will he stand by his man? >> howard dean, the former presidential candidate and david gurrigan. let me start with you on this. i watched the president's press conference yesterday, and as he went on and on and on and on taking the blame, soaking it in and so on, i just began to find myself distancing myself from him in term s of credibility and thinking why are you talking so much about this? just get it fixed. >> well, sometimes he does seem to think the longer he talks the more he persuades and i think that's wrong. i think it's just the reverse. if you're more transparent, he got into trouble because of when he said. that's most of the trouble saying it over and over and over again, i feel like your health care plan. >> did he mislead or was it a lie? >> i had arguments over that. friends of obama said he did not lie. they believe it was frfwas frau. the health care law passed because of a lie. >> semantics? >> i agree. in my book -- listen, piers, you weren't living here at the time but when the clintons tried to push forward with health care, the opposition for what was called harry and luis sitting around there at the kitchen table and saying, you know, if you sign up for clinton care, the government will take away your health care plan and burr cats in washington will tell you what kind of health care plan to have. that sank the clinton bill. those ads sank the clinton bill. you can imagine they were anxious to say you can keep your health care plan, you can keep your doctor but got themself in trouble doing it. >> howard dean, fraudfraudulent lying, whatever you want to call it, how damaging is all this to him personally in terms of credibility? >> let me say a couple things. first of all, i disagree with david. my staff led him to believe it was true and the early staff was weak and made a lot of mistakes and i think he's a truth teller. i do believe that he told the truth as he heard it and saw it. secondly, anybody who compares this to katrina is smoking something. 3,000 people were killed in katrina. we haven't lost any lives here yet. this may be a big political mess and blah, blah, blah, we haven't lost lives. >> that is my initial reaction but that should be taken to a logical extension, a massive health care program like this ex which the president staked his reputation on in many ways, it's about life and death and health and if the system collapses, people are going to suffer. their health may suffer. >> piers, interestingly enough, the republicans would disappoint greece because the republicans kept saying don't worry, if you don't have health insurance, you'll get taken care of in the emergency room. you can't have it both ways here. i do agree with david about the length of the -- i kept -- i was with a group of people on -- actually onset on a television talk show and we all of course had to stop and watch the thing and we all fairly experienced in politics and saying where is jay carney saying thank you very much ladies and gentlemen? i was shocked. i don't know of a press secretary that would have let this go on like this for any president and it should have been cut off. david a apparently right. let me come to david on that. i thought it was strange, it was like he was out there as a sitting duck wanting to take the harpoons coming his way but for what purpose? because nobody came away thinking okay, that sorted that then. >> well, i -- it's hard to explain. i think he feels very vulnerable. i think he feels humiliated. i agree with howard. i think for the most part he has been an honest president and that's to his credits. what i disagree is his staff let him down. i'm sorry, but when you have the biggest issue of your presidency and you're the chief executive, howard was a governor. he knows this. he's run these kind of things. you're responsible. and you may -- he may not have had hard knowledge -- >> by the way, it wasn't howard dean like he just said it once and it was a slip of the tongue. >> no. >> he said it repeatedly and went on and on and on and on telling the american people, you can keep your plan, you can keep your doctor. he must have known that neither of those things were true, and he must have known the reason he was selling it was to sell his program. >> no, i don't believe that about him. i just don't. i -- you know, people may say things and explain things. he's a very bright guy. i think everybody understands that. he had a lot of people explaining to them things. i think some of his experts weren't that great. some were terrific, some weren't. my honest i opinion, i think kathleen sebelius didn't understand this. she got a lot of mumbo jumbo people explaining it and said things that were misleading. >> listen, i'm sorry, look, we had a variety of newspaper reports saying his staff did know. they had a big argument what he should say and how to describe this. the political people basically came down hard on you've got to make this very simple and very reassuring and that's the way we'll sell this program. i just do not believe that the president had no knowledge of that. it's so fundamental to the program about how you pay for this program. >> in terms of accountability, david, the president can say the buck stops with me. of course it does. this is the president and his mayor plan. why does he not fire kathleen sebelius? surely a head has to roll and she's the obvious head. >> well, i believe in due course a head will roll. >> her head? >> i would assume at some discrete interval she will find a way to leave. i don't think they should humiliate her. i don't think it's hers. this is a white house that centralized power and taken power away from cabinet officers and put it in the white house and they didn't have the team. i think howard has a good point about the quality of the team to run it. the president has good people with him in his inner circle. the people from chicago are terrific but never brought in a heavy weight to run income. if he brought in tom from the beginning, as i think he still should have done or howard dean could have been helpful. somebody was a heavy weight who understand stood management and politics. >> howard, let me ask you this, you're a doctor, do you think the fundamentally obama care is a good idea, and the problem is implantation or the problem is flawed? >> this is a doable idea. the mayor problem here is that the website crashed. that was for seeable. i've been through a lot of tech rollouts when i was governor. my rule is it takes twice as much -- twice as long as they told you it would take. it would cost twice as much and you have to do it twice. >> let me question you. here is the problem, it's the president's credibility. when the watch the video of him just saying endlessly to the american people two complete forces, it is very damaging because you want to believe that guy. that's why he got elected. his poll numbers are 39%. putting it in perspective. that's 6% lower than the crack smoking mayor of toronto. [ laughter ] >> how bad is that? [ laughter ] >> i must say i was speechless at that one. what a press conference that was yesterday. holey cow. >> he's polling higher than the president. he's got a problem. david gurrigan, this is a big problem. can presidents come back in the second term when the clock is ticking from a mayor fiasco? >> i think whether the program will work or not is highly problematic. we don't know. the question whether the president can come back in the second term, yes he can. he has time to do that. ronald reagan had contra early and bill clinton had monica lewinsky and got i'm peempeache had -- >> i would say on that, though, one of those is a personal failing, albiet, one, this effects everyone in america someway. >> here is the difference, piers. in both cases, regan and clinton, their credibility was badly damaged by the incident, and they both came back. it took a lot of work. the president has to make up for it. if he gets a growing economy and into a deal that is welcomed on all sides and maybe this thing works better over time, you know, his -- this will be an incident of the past but right now, i think you can say fairly he's been -- this damage to him has been devastating. i'm not sure it's fatal. >> let me put it in perspective for you two, more people, howard dean, more americans signed a petition to have me deported for my opposition to guns than have actually enrolled in obama care. now if that doesn't worry the president, what will? >> that should worry you, piers. laugh will ha[ laughter ] . gentlemen, i have to live it there. i'll bring in david, the author of "barack obama, the story." you heard that, put it into historical context. how damaging is this and how successfully can the president ex tra kate himself from this mess? >> i think it's very damaging. i think he based his entire presidency on this single great initiative. he had more than three years to prepare for the rollout but i agree with david gurrigan it's not fatal. as he pointed out, when bill clinton issued his apology for monica lewinsky, it was not the low point yet to be impeached like barack obama, the republicans were out to get bill clinton. they disliked him. president obama is facing that same problem, but he does have time to recover, and he has the benefit of the possibility of this plan actually working. he's got some time to work on that as well as his reputation. >> let's look at three bits of footage. the first one is the president yesterday issuing his mere culper and more. let's watch these. >> my expectation was that for 9 8% of the american, people, it generally wouldn't change at all or they would be pleasantly surprised with the options in the market place. and that the grandfather clause would cover the rest. that proved not to be the case. and that's on me. >> it is important to me that everybody who has been hurt know that the sorrow i feel is genuine. >> americans have every right to expect a more effective response in a time of emergency. when a federal government fails to meet such an obligation, i as president am responsible for th >> there you have three mere culpars, very different, how difficult for the president when his own personal credibility is questioned. when it looks like barack obama made a series of speeches telling b telling forces to the american people over his project, has to be bad. >> the culprit is a ritual in american politics. in this case for president obama, i think the reason he dragged on and on yesterday, and a week ago the gettysburg address in 260 words and barack obama was clearing his throat at that point. nonethele nonetheless. barack obama knows whatever he says is completely overwhelmed by what happens, and i think he has trouble dealing with words when he knows deeds are more important. and that's when he tends to talk too much. >> how will this damage potentially hillary clinton's chances of winning a 2016 race if the democrats become associated with this catastrophic obama care, which we assume it doesn't work at all, phfalls flat on it's face w does that impact hillary clinton, if at all? >> you're assuming hillary clinton will run and be the candidate and at this point, before 2008, nobody even knew about barack obama. so there is so much time. i think it's more clearly going to affect the elections next year and also, one possible larger impact, which is actually much more important than how it affects hillary clinton and that's how it affects lib well activist government. if this plan fails, it does great damage to that whole notion. >> david, thank you very much. one small bright spot for the president tonight, his message for bat kid, 5-year-old miles scott. the make a wish foundation is making his wish come true by letting him by batman for a day and the president send congratulations. >> way to go, miles. way to save gotham. way to go, miles, way to save gotham. >> when we come back, one of president obama's backers, how he can win back the nation's trust. 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>> i think he said he made a mistake, but for me, i look at the idea behind it. sometimes i know in my own i industry, i can't execute. the movie doesn't come out perfectly, maybe we get it right later on. this man has compassion for 41 million americans who don't have insurance. why don't people say things like can we help you, as opposed to can we, you know, attack you? what's wrong with the country? >> robert was interesting about this. he came out and said obama's opponents are paralyzing the system and behaving stupidly and giving credit to the president for anything, taking out the point you just made. they will go against him. never mind it's the better good of the people or supposed to be in the office representing the interest of the public. they are representing their interest, there is a body of congressional people that want to paralyze the system and what sits under beneath it is probably racism involved to, which is awful. words accusing obama's ocho phone noenlts of being racist. >> i think some of them are. >> you do? >> i do. this is explained otherwise. luckily for me i've been around the clinton administration and there wasn't this. >> wasn't there -- >> there was but it was much more folksy and gingrich could laugh and clinton could laugh back and they joked back and forth. it just looks like utter disdain for the president. it's ironic, i know we'll talk about mandela but i'll bring it up now. i screened the movie for the president. >> at the white house last week. >> mandela was his great hero. when you see this movie and mandela talks about leadership, he says look, i know what you want but i'm not going to do that. i'm going to do the tough thing because i'm your leader. they put him in prison for 27 years and he forgave them. this country has to start acting like they care about each other. >> to a point i agree with what a lot of what you said. the point i don't, i think on this obama care thing, it's not so much technical problems with the rollout. that happens in big rollouts and i'm sure they will fix that. it's that repeated footage of him not just once but dozens of times telling american people, you can keep your plan, you can keep your doctor when it looks like he knew all along that wasn't possible. it it was an out right falsehood and i can't remember himmi doin that so play tently and i can't remember nelson mandela doing that. >> he made a mistake and i make mistakes and everyone else. let's reverse it. do you think if it was george w. bush who made the mistake, that obama would be beating on him every day? i don't think so. >> on course he would. >> you don't -- >> no, i don't -- >> you work -- >> [ overlapping speakers ] >> when enemies are vulnerable, you whack them. >> when you're running for an election, you whack them. non-election, you roll up the sleeves. >> what was the mood like in the white house when you were there? >> they were excited to see the movie and of course, they were number one priority was helping affordable care and getting people care. i just really think people have lost the plot. >> actually i agree -- >> if they don't realize -- this is the only country in the world where we don't have health care. countries embarrass us around the world and this is the only country in the world we don't have a gun law. i watched you talk about that. quite frankly it's embarrassing. obama isn't embarrassing. the country is embarrassing. >> you can be like me on this, supportive on the principle like i am. you can support that, but you can also be irritated by the rollout failing because it may botch the whole thing but you can also be very, very angry that the president lied. i mean, you can be all those things. >> he made a mistake. he's human. he made a mistake. >> let's move on. >> let's move on. >> let me take your advice. let's move onto the mandela movie. >> good advice. >> let's watch a clip because i'm excited. i have cherished the idea of a free democratic society where all live together in harmony with equal opportunities. it is an idea i hope to live for and achieve, but if need be, it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die. >> very powerful and getting fantastic buzz this movie as it should because it's a great tribute to the extraordinary man. he's clearly, we haven't seen him in public for a long time. his legacy he's the ultimate bipartisan politician in man, wasn't he? he could have come out of prison and carnage phoopponents, he we the other way. >> you see his wife and others saying we have the upper hand. we can do what we want. we can take this country. we have the guns. we have the people. we don't have to go to the bargaining table and mandela was, i forgive them. we have to sit down, nothing works unless we work together. >> is that the real problem in america right now in terms of the government and congress and everything put together, nobody is thinking that way? all they are thinking about is damaging each other. >> yeah, that's the terrible thing about politics today. that's why governors are looking good out there, you know, in terms of because they deal with it on an executive level and day don't have the fighting of a terrible congress. >> can you enjoy the work of someone like chris christie even though he's on the other side? >> i love him. he said wait until i win my governor race and a year from now we'll be on opposite sides again. >> hollywood seems to be lining up for hillary clinton. you're a fan, will you stump the lines. >> anything mrs. clinton asks me to do, i'll do because i think she represents the best path for 2016. as great as governor christie is, more seasoning would do him a world of good, too, and more foreign experience in foreign affai affairs. he could be an excellent secretary of state under president clinton. >> nicely put harvey, nicely stabbed in the back. >> let's come back and talk about the films getting oscar buzz and also ahead, in this case -- nick cannon with a bit of advice for the commander in chief. people go to a mattress people go to a mattress store and essentially they just get sold something. we provide the exact individualization that your body needs. before you invest in a mattress, discover the bed clinically proven to the sleep number bed. once you experience it, there's no going back. final days for our lowest price ever on c4 queen mattress sets-just $1299. plus special financing until 2015. only at one of our 425 sleep number stores nationwide. sleep number. comfort individualized on the table by not choosing the right medicare d plan. no one could have left this much money here. whoo-hoo-hoo! yet many seniors who compare medicare d plans realize they can save hundreds of dollars. cvs/pharmacy wants to help you save on medicare expenses. talk to your cvs pharmacist, call, or go to cvs.com/compare to get your free, personalized plan comparison today. call, go online, or visit your local store today.

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