president biden say in his inaugural speech he was going to focus on uniting both parties and america. unfortunately, that is not happened. in my opinion, in fact, the parties in the country are more divided than ever. and i as a mom, as a coach of young children, and as an american i am tired of the fighting. what specific steps would you take as present to bring all parties to the table, and bring americans together to end the divisiveness in this great country. >> well, thanks for the question. . it's something that's very meaningful, as i share your aspiration for our country. look, i said before, i think democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. and over the last 20 years of my career, we've always tried to aspire to that ideal. my faith requires me to treat others the way i want to be treated. and while earlier in the career, the first time i ran for office, i didn't live up to that. ten years later, when the opportunity came around, we thought to do just that. and quite frankly, over the course of my years in congress, and as governor and as vice president, i always try to reflect that. you know, i think our politics are more divided than ever before, in my lifetime. but i'm not convinced the american people are as divided as our politics. you know, karen and i moved home to indiana, we bought five acres and a pond after we left the white house. and i could tell you, you know, one of the things i've learned, dana, you get 15 miles out of washington, d.c., the people of this country actually get along pretty well. right? i mean, the american people show respect to one another, people here in iowa, people in indiana, people with whom we differ. we show civility and respect both days. i just think we need government as good as our people. and when i think of the challenges that are facing america today, a world that seems to be more dangerous every day, inflation, crisis at our border, crime in our major cities, what seems to be an assault on our values, failing schools in so many of our major cities and towns across the country. now, more than ever, we need to create an environment in politics that allows us to talk to one another. you know, i wrote a book about my career reflected on this. and i will tell you, taking that approach in my career, i was able to forge relationships with people in congress that i agreed with on nothing. one of them was the late john lewis, an icon of the civil rights movement, and the right-hand man of the reverend dr. martin luther king junior. john and i differed on everything, except that i knew he was a great man. and we recognized the importance of our christian faith to both of us. i'll never forget when i was leading the house republican conference, john lewis called my office and asked if karen and i would cool lead the annual civil rights pilgrimage to walk across the edmund pettus bridge with him, the very bridge were years and years earlier, he had been beaten with an inch of his life by his suffering and a struggle, he advanced a more perfect union in america. that's one of the great privileges of my life that karen and i, and our three children, walked across that bridge with john lewis. and i'm more and it is passing, his sense of personal loss, when he left us. but john and i, again, never agreed on much. but we could always talk. and i think that's what we have to get back to, when you think about the challenges we're facing in america. i just think we've got to get back to the kind of politics that reflects the decency and civility that the american people show each other every day. and i believe we will. and i hope to be a part of them. [applause] >> former vice president mike pence, thank you so much for being here with cnn. and thank you to our audience, everybody here at grand view university, and you at home as well. be sure to tune in on monday at eight pm eastern for our next cnn republican presidential town hall, with former new jersey governor chris christie. cnn's coverage with anderson cooper and jake tapper, is next. [applause] >> it's a night cnn town hall, former vice president pence just wrapping up there in iowa. good evening from new york. [applause] not just a political event, but also a very eventful day for mike pence's former boss. we learned that mr. trump, who mike pence earlier today said never should be president again, has been informed by the department of justice that he is a target in the documents probe, the classified documents probe, meaning he could be indicted. the former vice president tonight, dodging the question of whether he would support mr. trump this time, if trump wins the nomination. and jake, mike pence was asked out a possible indictment tonight, specifically whether he thought the former president should be indicted, here's some of his answer. >> let me say this, look, i don't know the facts of the president's case. i mean, i was very troubled last summer when for the first time in history, there was a search warrant executed at the former home of a president of the red states. when i inform the department of justice that we had classified materials potentially in my home, they're at my home, the fbi was on my front doorstep the next day. >> but isn't the difference -- >> but we found out joe biden apparently alerted the department of justice 80 days later, they showed up at his office. that's not equal treatment. >> the question is an allegation of an investigation into obstruction, which you clearly did not do. if that is something that investigators see as possible, even enough to potentially indict the former president, do you think that should go forward? >> well, i would hope not. i really would, dana. i mean, there's several reasons for that. number one, i think it would be terribly divisive to the country. >> sir, i just want to clarify, what you're saying is that if they believe he committed a crime, they should not go forward with an indictment? you just talked before about committing to the rule of law. >> no, let me be clear, no one is above the law. >> okay. >> but with regard to the unique circumstances here, look, those classified -- i had no business having classified documents in my residence. and i took full responsibility for it. president biden had no business having them in his residence when he was vice president as well. and the same with former president trump, but i would just hope that there would be a way for them to move forward without the dramatic and drastic and divisive step of indicting a former president of the united states. >> the former vice president, just minutes ago in des moines, with me here, cnn anchor and chief correspondent kaitlan collins, cnn senior political correspondent inside politics host abby phillips, cnn special correspondent jamie gangel, and cnn legal analyst carrie cordero. so, it's interesting the line that the vice president pence is trying to walk when it comes to this news. no one is above the law, and yet i hope they don't indict donald trump because that would be divisive. >> yeah, i think, mike pence is probably going as far as he wants to go in terms of criticizing trump. when he has, i think, pretty forcefully today in the last couple of, days really condemned trump, not just for his actions on january 6th, but also for what it says about his fidelity to the constitution. but that's about as far as he's willing to go, and that's probably his view of where the republican party is. he does not think that republican voters really care on the merits of some of these cases, whether it's the new york indictment over the hush money payments, or perhaps this document case. however, the devil will be in the details. i think he can say this now because we do not know what the facts of the case are yet. but it will be interesting to see whether his tune changes if the facts of this case become more serious and more detailed, especially as it relates to national security and of classified documents. >> yeah, i think he's picking and choosing. he's willing to criticize him on the big things that he sees our big things, jerry sixth and whatnot. obviously, he was very blunt about that today. but not so much on this. we don't really know how republican voters will react to this. we do know, though, that trump's attorneys have gotten a target letter from the justice department saying your client is a target in this documents investigation. it seemed very clear that that's where this was headed. but we don't know what this looks like if he does get indicted. obviously, that's what could potentially follow a target letter. we'll see if it actually does. pence, honestly though, is being very careful there. but saying you're committed to the rule of law, biden saying he should be charged or indicted with this, i mean, that's a clear -- those two don't compute, obviously. and he also didn't answer about whether or not he'd pardon trump when dana asked that question. >> yeah, there is this inherent contradiction. we also saw it when he said that donald trump should never be president again because he put himself above the constitution, and he, mike pence, would never do such a thing. but then when asked if donald trump is the nominee, will you support him, he said yes, even though he had also said donald trump put himself above the constitution. again, an inherent contradiction. >> so, there are a couple of things here. it appears to get on the debate stage, people are going to have to pledge that they will support the nominee. let's see if that holds. but as kaitlan, you were saying earlier today, there is sort of a fake pledge thing going on. and the way he gets around it is he says i don't think he's going to be the nominee. but i think what we saw from former vice president pence tonight was once again this balancing act that we have seen for a long time. even though he was blunt about january 6th and the constitution, he knows that donald trump owns the base right now. he is by far the front runner. and some gop voters were with trump, see prince as a trader. and gop voters who aren't with trump aren't very attracted to mike pence. they rather look at someone else in the field. >> just as a factual matter, the ones who think he's a traitor, are wrong. >> correct. >> he's not a traitor. carrie cordero, as a legal matter, how serious is the idea that donald trump and his attorneys, more specifically, got a target letter saying that he is the target of a possible indictment? what does that mean for a viewers out there? >> sure, so, if someone is a subject of an investigation, that means they're involved in the investigation in some way. but it doesn't necessarily mean their conduct is the subject of the actual potential criminal violations. the target letter is serious. the target letter means that this is an individual that the investigation is targeting, is directed at him as an individual, not just the people around him, that his conduct is potentially the charged conduct. and i think it does correlate to the meeting that took place recently, where his lawyers want to. sometimes, the target letter can come out before the lawyers go in and sort of make their last case in front of the justice department prosecutors, trying to dissuade them from issuing the target letter. in this case, they had the meeting and then the target letter appears to be coming out after. but it does indicate they are seriously considering charges. >> one note about that meeting, that was at the justice department on monday, trump's attorneys were there for, i think, almost two hours. jack smith, the special counsel, was in that meeting, but we are told he did not say a word. essentially, he walked in and said, basically hello and goodbye. and that was all he said. >> very interesting. anderson, we've got a lot more to talk about in terms of the issues that were discussed beyond donald trump. mike pence clearly casting himself as perhaps the most conservative major party, i'm sorry, major candidate in the republican race. but i'm throwing it back to you. >> yeah, with me here in new york a cnn political commentator across the political spectrum, van jones, alyssa ferguson -- scott jennings, also cnn senior legal analyst former federal prosecutor elie honig. alyssa, to abby philip point, he went as far as he's willing to go on trump. he went further today than he has in the past when he announced. and tonight, but he wouldn't answer dana's questions about a pardon or a number of other things. >> right, pence had some strong moments tonight. he had a line where he said that was a direct shot at trump. he said i know the difference between a genius and a war criminal, taking him on for refusing to call putin a war criminal. he talked about a meeting with vladimir putin. i was there when he did, indirectly concerning and what an -- election appearance. but the problem is trump looms large over the entire night. it was hard to look at what a future looking, you know, mike pence presents he would look like, because it kept coming back to, rightly so, january 6th, pardoning the former president. this is what he's gonna have to deal with on the campaign trail. i don't know if i've strong advice on how to avoid it, because the two are so inextricably tied. and i think for voters, the key thing he needs to do is draw a clear line and stick to it. he's never going to win over the super mega base. so, he might as well appeal to the many of us that think sending someone who may soon be indicted, courts finding someone who may be behind january 6th is an acceptable position. he's got to draw that clean line, or is always gonna be playing cleanup. >> i totally believe this. i think the risk for candidates like mike pence is not taking any risks. and this was kind of a carefully calibrated evening where he tried not to take risks. >> has he ever -- i mean, obviously on general 60 took a risk, and fulfilled his duty. but has he taken a risk politically, in terms of breaking out of his persona? >> no, and as i said before, the town hall he has, he spent most those four years defending donald trump's behavior on a whole range of things. but tonight, i think we saw the limit of where he's willing to go. i think we also saw, and scott referenced this earlier, his estimation of where the republican electorate is willing to go. he thinks that the republicans will rally around trump. as scott said earlier, biden, they'll say biden is getting different treatment, and so on. which is absurd in many ways. but he did not want to wade in those waters. so, you can say no one's above the law, constitution, and so on. but here comes a case in which he is going to have to take a stand, and apparently he's not going to do that. >> look, i was listening as a democrat. first of all, man, he's boring, he's really boring. >> [laughter] >> like, stick with him. but as is trying to listen to him -- >> when you say boring -- >> he talks really slow. it's just hard to follow. but the other thing is he wasn't just tying himself into a pretzel around trump. he could sell pretzels. the kind of conservatism he's putting forward is weird. he believes in parents rights, unless you're the parent of a transgender kid, in which case the government should bossy round tell you what you can and can't do. that's weird. he believes in freedom for ukrainian people, but are not for american women. evil ease in the constitution, the constitution, unless you get charged with mass shooting, in which case summary execution. so, this is a guy whose politics -- he's nice, he's kind, he's warm, he talks really slow, but what he's saying is really, really frightening for my point of view. and i'm curious to know how relevance listen to that stuff. it was weird to me. >> well, it will be where to republican voters in iowa. what he said about all those issues you mentioned will ring true, particularly around the culture issues on the transgender back and forth he had with dana. that's going to wring really true to the average conservative or evangelical voter in iowa. i think pence -- >> in a sense, that's who he's. is >> that's who he is. but look, there just are going to be any republican voters out there who are gonna say, well, i believe in parental rights so much that i think we ought to let this chemical castration go forward. there aren't any. there aren't any. >> i'm listening as a democrat -- i would love to hear how you guys see it. but i'm going to say. it is really painful to hear -- how somebody say i'm a christian, compassionate christian, and then you just don't see the compassion in any understanding. but again, this is gonna be your primary, and not mine. >> i'm also not totally sure i agree with that. just really quickly, and i want to let you finish. i know it's a very animating issue on the right, the fear around gender affirming care. but there are republican voters who have trans kids in this country, and i do think those voters believe they have a right to -- >> i don't think there's a single republican primary voter -- >> i literally no two republican primary voters -- >> who, who -- i'm just -- this is not a major coalition in our primary, alyssa. in iowa, for mike pence, if it's not going to have an eye wall, it's not gonna happen anywhere. and who he's speaking to, the people who are going to the iowa caucus -- >> you're right -- i just unwanted -- >> for mike pence, it's all about iowa. >> look, i've campaigned in all 99 counties in more times than i care to mention. i've talked to people in every corner of the state of iowa and i guarantee you, to what scott said, they are not standing around discussing the transgender issue, in terms of the way you are referring to. the point that mike pence made that i think resonated with them was simply the fact that these decisions should not be made by kids under 18, and parents should be involved in such a life altering decision if it involves someone under 18. i think that's the point he made their. he did score some points when he talked about his pro life position. he says he is pro-life, and he's not apologetic about it. and he also made the important distinction that republicans are concerned about protecting the sanctity of life, but also after that child is born, republicans will be there and evangelical community will be there if they choose to put the child off her adoption. and as crisis pregnancy centers across iowa in the country, of which i've been to many, here's the thing that i think will make a lot of the headlines. but i don't think is particularly important to the people in iowa, but he was so strong today on his comments about presidents decision on january 6th, and saying if he's got to put himself before the constitution, he should not be the president of the united states again. i agree 100% with that. but when he was back and forth on the issue of these classified documents, in essence making a moral equivalency or what about-ism regarding joe biden, he basically wiped his argument off the table in terms of, if you do the crime, you should do the time. donald trump is more than likely going to be indicted on this. and if he did the crime, he should do the time. and the fact that pence wouldn't say unequivocally that i'm not going to pardon him, that's going to -- >> i just have a stylistic comment. to van's earlier point, i watch tim scott on the view, i watched chris christie last night. their dynamic speakers, dynamic candidates, the complete opposite of what we saw tonight, right? i know this is not the iowa caucuses were talking about, but who people get behind, who do you get excited about? are you going to get excite about what mike pence just said and? did van's point, or as roger stone tweeted out, he liked have the no-noes concession at the town hall. when you look at chris christie, who says all the only way to the presidency is through donald trump, and i'm going there. when you look at tim scott saying i'm looking through the windshield, not the rearview mirror. my vision is happy lawyer. there are really big stylistic differences, that i think will play out if we get into debate. and you know, hopefully we will have these candidates on the debate stage. >> if you think his delivery reads as authentic to people? >> no, is the opposite. because i think every question cannot have a speech for an answer. if i ask you to pass the salt, i can't have you for your brow and -- >> the dramatic pauses, i don't know if they're -- because these are things he said 1 million. times >> like this, anderson he was in the capital, being protected by the secret service. donald trump is sitting at his desk, wondering whether mike pence is gonna be harmed. i can't understand if mike pence did go back to the white house, and has to be physically separated by the secret service there. if he were to say, there is a story that said mike pence gets in a fight with donald trump about it, i think people would've been, like, wow. instead, it's not authentic. >> authenticity is the coin of the realm at this level of politics. even -- nobody ever says, i wish donald trump would speak his mind. whatever you think about him -- >> he's authentic. >> authentic candidates tend to win. and there isn't in authenticity. there is a studied kind of labored quality to his presentation that are different now when he's campaigning. >> just really quick -- >> he's a nice guy, campaign one-on-one. >> i've connected with him across the country, he's much better in a smaller venue than a big platform like this. >> the problem is he's kind of running for a large platform. >> no, he is. and the bottom line is, all of these points that he's making on conservatism, on cultural conservatism, and so on, he's not alone out there. there's a lot of people competing for that vote. >> that's why we have to take a break. when we come back, cnn's daniel dale with the fact check on what we heard tonight. also, the very latest on the smoke now covering a dozen states in the northeast, and when it might lift. the chase ink business premier 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about the employee retention credit. that is a legitimate tax credit. so innovation refunds has really helped guide me through the process. just had to get a few of my records together, submit that, and they made it as painless as possible. i can't thank innovation refunds enough for what they did. with tonight cnn town hall, was former vice president pence. now the books are under fact-checked. and some of what he said, senior dale is with us now. so, daniel, the vice president made -- the former vice president made a claim about the controversial separation policy when he was in office. what did he say? how does it square with the facts? >> well, he tried to separate himself from the separation policy. let's listen to what he said. >> the family separation policy actually became under the obama administration. and then we continue did until president trump rightly reversed course. >> when president trump said during his plan -- , anderson, but he is simply inherited this family separation policy from barack obama and that eventually entered it. i called that a lie. and now i'm going to call it a lie again now that mike pence is saying it. it is just not true. here is the reality. there was no blanket policy of family separation under president barack obama. rather under obama, children were separated from their parents at the border in rare and exceptional cases, like where the parent would be prosecuted for carrying the drugs across the border. where human trafficking was suspected. were you authorities couldn't confirm the connection between the child needle they were with. so rare and exceptional. what trump and pence did was way different. they created a whole new policy that made separation routine rather than rare. in spring 2018 they're a. g. jeff sessions announced it as a whole new separation policy. it was called zero tolerance and said that in a major change from the obama days. all of the adults car costing the border legally would be criminally prosecuted and that resulted in those adults going to jail. their children were taken to other facilities and so as a result of this new -- routine separation, actually did not exist under barack obama. in short, anderson, mike pence here is dishonestly descent -- jested. >> he also talked about abortion tonight. what did he say? how does that stand up? so our dine about actually talked about the importance of exceptions for life of the mother, for rape and incest. and he made an assertion -- sudanese questions. take a listen. >> should any thorough abortion ban also include exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother? >> well i, those are exceptions that i have always supported, dana. as you know. >> he was not telling the truth, anderson, when he said he has always supported all three of those exceptions. i am stuck of cnn's kfile reporting team looked into this and she found pence's answer to an indiana antiabortion group cautionary fill out in 2010 as a congressional candidate. it is still online. we will postal into it on cnn.com tonight. and it asked, quote, under what circumstances do you think abortion should be legal -- it gave them the option of rape slush incest or other. instead, pence did not to his. that he stated abortion should never be legal. so he was on record in, that on 2010, rejecting all exceptions, when he ran for reelection -- this time he checked on the life of the mother, so again -- he checked only life of a mother. so he supported rape, incest, he's saying what he wants to say about his current position, but those are exceptions that i have always supported. it is just not true. and, all at, in closing, it's worth noting that in congress he also cosponsored legislation in 2011 to tweak the hide amendment to narrow the definition of a. anderson? >> thank, you appreciated. jake? >> good to have daniel dale back, more reaction out of tonight's tunnel, we are joined by chris wallace, host of who's talking to chris wallace. chris, good to see you. you say you were struck by the exchange, former vice president pence was asked whether he should be indicted if the justice department means believes he committed a crime. tell me, what did you think of his answer? >> well it is a hard one to square off. because on the one hand, he saying no one should be above the law. on the other hand he says that i hope that they will find a way not to indict this president even if he is committed a crime that would be terribly divisive. terribly -- i think there is a lot of people who have questions about whether or not they want to see a former president and even one who they think they committed a crime behind bars. and it is hard just serve a matter of logic. it is a pretty hard one to square. what struck me tonight, jacob, about pence's performance was the fact that he really does face a tremendous structural problem. and the latest cnn poll, 6% of republicans and republican -leaning voters nationally say they support pence. 45% say they there is no circumstance under which they whatever support to pence. what struck me is that on a number of issues, ukraine and the fact that he feels we should be committed to it and could not allow russia to win, and entitlement reform, social security reform, medicare reform. he is very, much any talked repeatedly about being a reagan republican. and being, signing on during the reagan revolution. the question, of course, is whether this is from reagan's party anymore. it seems more to be dame transfer even if you are -- see robbins saying there will be no reform of entitlements, social security, medicare, and also an increasing number of them falling back in terms of a kind of blank check of support for ukraine. so, you know, i think he would be a very attractive candidate in the 80s. with reagan and bush 41. whether he is an attractive candidate in 2024, even for those who were looking for an alternative to donald trump. i am not kosher. >> yeah, mr. trump certainly reshaping the ideology i thought the make up the republican party. also, there are a lot of states that are banning procedures having to do with trans health care for minors such as puberty blockers or sex reassignment surgery is that era. even though the parents and the physicians and the psychologist a center say this is what this child needs. then, she asked him about that. let's put him get back. >> i strongly support state legislation including as we did in indiana that bans all gender transition chemical or surgical procedures for kids under the age of 18. [applause] >> but what if their parents support? that >> when you are talking about something that is absolutely transformational, and that we know from mental health experts more often than not has profound negative effects on people in the long term. i think that minimum it is proper for state governments and state officials to simply say, however adults want to live, they can live. but for children we are going to protect kids from the radical gender ideology and say no chemical or surgical gender transition before you are 18. >> what would you say to a transgender kid and their don't feel comfortable another way? and that they feel that you are targeting them? >> i would tell them that i love everybody. i would put my arm around them and their parents. but before they had a chemical or surgical procedure i would say, boy. >> before i had a trans girl and her father on my show i think they were from at home a few weeks ago. and one of the issues was the trans girl. i basically said -- what do you think about this? just wait until you are 18? she said i would have killed myself. and i know that this is all relatively new in the national discourse. how do you think he handled that? >> i think, first of all i think clearly he believes. one of the things i think came through tonight, whether you agree with it or not, was he sincerity. this man -- i also as a political matter, and i'm not saying this was a political calculation. it has been mentioned before. for mike pence, he has got to win in iowa or he is basically out of the race. and the iowa republican caucus just as a medical -- evangelicals. so whether it is a very strong position on abortion, very strong position on school vouchers, and yes even his very strong position on not even allowing parents of children under 18 to have a say in whether or not there can be a gender transformation. i think that that plays very well among the people who will be going to those caucuses early next winter. yeah, and let's not forget that ted cruz won the iowa caucus, beat donald trump narrowly. but he beat him. thanks so much, chris, anderson? >> jake, we are gonna take a step away from the title coverage, bring you some breaking news. news that is clearly visible across the northeast. literally. that is the manhattan skyline tonight. the empire state building, the view perhaps a little better than it was earlier, still hazy from all of the smoke being blown here from wildfires in central canada. new york says -- encompassing 75 million people with health emergencies now in effect. earlier today, new jersey governor phil murphy told jake tapper that the conditions in his state are, quote, either bad or really bad depending on where you are. cnn's miguel marquez is near manhattan's union square for us tonight. you have another most of the day and there were times today, michael, that new york city had the worst air quality of any major city in the world. people describe smelling the smoke, even tasting it. how about isn't our? >> you can still smell it. i, mean what is amazing about that as well as something you have covered many fires in the west. it's that typically when los angeles or san francisco gets sort of smokes in by a fire those nearby, it's ten or maybe 20 miles away. these fires are hundreds of miles away. these are such massive fires to have this smoke this far south inundating. ac looking york. even farther south, philly, washington d. c.,. all suffering the effects of this as well. just incredible. in new york and in the area major league baseball games have been postponed. a wnba game broadway shows being postponed. there was an actor who was in the middle of imagine who had to stop today because she was unable to go on. so health professionals saying the best thing that you can do, the air quality has improved. it is much much better right now than it was earlier today. but it will be with us for the next 24 or maybe 48 hours where we will have this smoke. and then we actually moved further west, to pittsburgh and other cities in the west. but all officials say the best thing you can do now is stay indoors, if you have to go outdoors and you do have underlying issues with breathing and your lungs, a kn95 or n95 mask is the best way to protect yourself from the smoke that we are experiencing. but to see new york turn into this sort of apocalyptic sort of orange haze, you know, you see it in other cities. but you see it in new york it is a much different thing. >> what's also, creepy even going inside, i, mean even with their conditioning, whether the central -- orlando unit. it is inside the apartment. it is inside your. apartment is inside your house? >> yeah, even the buildings even in the commercial buildings that have very good air filtration systems. we can smell it at work all day yesterday and today. there is no real way to be completely free of it. but if you can be inside with an air purifier and sort of stay away from the worst of it, that is the best. we have been added today, you can feel it in your, throw you can feel it on your skin. it is clear that there is something in the air, and it's gonna be here for at least another 48 hours. >> yeah, yeah, i, galleria the, reporting thank, you look back to jake. >> thanks, anderson, coming back to the tonight's cnn town hall in des moines. day one of mike pence's run against donald trump. how stork one in the modern era. specifically we want to talk about how it is playing with the people who watched it in person. and for that let's go to cnn's kyung lah who is in iowa at the debates, kyung, you were in the audience this afternoon when the former vice president announced his candidacy. and again tonight at the town hall. how enthusiastic is the audience? >> well let's start by clearly and plainly stating that what we saw were not the crowds that would show up at a trump rally. the images and the sound that in some ways we have become accustomed to in our modern political era. that is not this. that is not what the campaign wants or is seeking. what we have seen throughout the day in both his first rally and here at the town hall are crowds that are largely supportive of him. these are crowds they genuinely seem to really like him. we also saw them being very receptive when we saw the former vice president to talk about issues like faith. really underscores the percentage of evangelicals among iowa republicans. we all saw them with him when he talked about issues like abortion. a lot of support. something else really noticed in the crowd, after the rally, during the commercial break here at the town hall. is that mike pence going into the crowd and shaking hands and spending real time talking one-on-one with people. he could have sat down during the commercial break and got in water. instead, we saw him take many of these commercial breaks by engaging. and that is something that this campaign has been telling us since the get-go. it will be a strength. that is why they want to get him out to all 99 counties. that is how they believe in those living rooms that he will be able to chip away at donald trump's -- >> how did the audience react when mr. pence talked about former president trump? >> this is the challenge. this is the going to be the challenge ahead, and the campaign cleanly and clearly knows. especially in the rally. and you could not help but notice that this was a mixed reaction when mr. pence tried to land some of his harshest criticism against donald trump. when he was most forceful. you saw some of the crowd stand up on their chairs, a standing oh. a good portion of the crowd than didn't abroad at all. they stayed seated. and this is a program's crowd. it is going to be a high wire act. how does he separate himself from the man who was his president, he was the vice president to then being running on his own and trying to forge his own path with those three or four years behind him as his legacy. >> interesting, kyung lah moines, thank you so much, appreciate, let's talk more about this with my panel. jaime can go, in the last three days since sunday night, i did a town hall with nikki haley. i interviewed earlier today chris christie. and dana just did this panel on this town hall with mike pence. where do you, obviously donald trump has a donald trump sized blame for himself in the race. and that is big right now. how do you see the other three? >> complete study in contrast. i mean, what we saw from nikki haley's sunday night was someone who was quite poised on the stage. talks about foreign policy. what i find most important -- pence first chris christie. well, mike pence says he is praying for donald trump. chris christie called him out as, quote, lonely, self consumed, self serving, -- i think this afternoon he used the expression with you that he was a spoiled baby. let's say for the record that mike pence is ahead of chris christie. chris christie has a lot of work ahead of him. but the republican sources that i need to see a role for chris christie in this campaign. because they think he can go on this stage and take it to donald trump in a way that nobody else can. certainly not to mike pence. >> and one of the things, i read a great color by jonah goldberg, one of our contributors who writes for the dispatch. and the overton window has something to do, with like, somebody when you open the overton window, one you can, that you are making something more acceptable. i don't know this but i am 24 people at home. the overton window. and what jones argument was is that chris christie is going to expand the overton window as to what is acceptable to say about donald trump. >> yeah, i mean, his job is to really put some things on the table so that they are out there and trump can be challenged on them and asked about them and if he doesn't do that it won't be a part of the conversation. there is reason to believe that is true because when you look at the other candidates they are really tiptoeing around trump still. i mean we spent more than a week talking about ron desantis and trump going at it. but even that was sort of mild combat. and actually you heard mike pence today talking about trump talking about, you know, putin. and saying that he knows a dictator when he sees one. and in some ways he is also trying to draw a contrast with ron desantis who has tried to not go after trump -- but look, i don't know, pence and christy, pence might be ahead of christy but it is not by much. we are talking about less than 10% of the vote. and all of these candidates who are in that lane, let's goldilocks the numbers and lane, they are all really struggling to convince republican voters that they matter really at all. because i think there is a sort of sense of almost the relevancy that republican voters are, they are like line. you know, it is conservative principles and that is great. but there is something that they are missing that is really not getting them beyond where they are. and even rhonda sanchez who was very well funded, very well-known, he gets a lot of good headlines. he is struggling to get past 30%. i mean, this is trump's party, and nobody has proven the ability to really dislodge that up until this point. >> caitlin, into thousand and 16, all of the republican rivals of donald trump really held back and they hoped that somebody else would take on donald trump. and then those two would destroy each other and then jeb bush or marco rubio would emerge as the nominee. now they have that someone. it is chris christie. he is gonna do it for them. >> also, did you see marco rubio the other day, basically blaming consultants who told him not to attack trump or go after chris christie and chris christie is taking credit for how he handled michael rubio on that debate stage. i do think that we should rethink. it is unavoidable. it'll quite a different place than we were then given what has happened. january 6th, everything that happened from the years in the white house. i know that pence has to say this but tonight when he was talking about the contradiction and saying that trump never be president again. that he will support the nominee. he said he has great confidence in republican primary voters that trump won't be the nominee. but right now he is far and away the front runner. two things that stood out to me tonight is, as jen was asking questions, one he broke with a lot of the republicans that are running on ukraine. saying he would continue to fund ukraine. and also on social security, saying that trump has the same policy as president biden. which is that there should be no changes to entitlement and pence is saying that we actually have to talk about this and there you have to be changes or otherwise there is going to be cots, and so i think that is where you are going to see the battle it out. they want to talk about that kind of stuff instead of talking about trump all the time. hey bud. wow. what's all this? 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>> i think one of the questions is, beyond just the issue of criminal justice, mike pence had an opportunity tonight to talk about the crisis in policing. he talked about not wanting to defund the police, which is one political talking point. but the real crisis in policing is one of police leaving the police forces and recruitment. the fraternal order of police enters an absolute crisis in police recruitment. nobody wants to become a police officer right now because the environment is so difficult, the job is so difficult. it's in part related to the gun problem, because many police chiefs are in favor of some level of gun safety. >> sure. the cops are outgunned. >> and also the environment that has made it more difficult for police policing in general, and the criticism of police out of common respond to acts of police brutality. so there is a real problem i n policing, and mike pence may be in the future will talk about it a bit, because it's an issue that some candidate is going to have to address if this country wants to make forward progress on safety in cities. >> i think you will hear on the campaign trail from line republicans that the answer is just that police are being demonized and that's the end of the story. but it's obviously a lot more complex than that. the solution will be more complex. i will also say that on the first step act it's not particularly surprising to see pence walking that back. i covered the trump administration when they were trying to pass this, and republicans by and large i really never fully on board with this. this was always something that the likes of senator tom cotton has been vocally against. the attorney general bill barr at the time was privately against it, publicly very lukewarm on it. but it is sad, because i think some of the cases that they cite are actually quite rare. the first step act was supposed to speak to more broadly than they need the need for the criminal justice system to be responsive to people turning their lives around, to people getting sentences that were disproportionate to the crime or not even proportionate to other people of different races who committed the same crimes. but that's not the kind of nuanced conversation we're gonna have in this cycle. iowa city represents a huge turnaround. trump wanted to do that, because they thought they could make inroads with black voters and with voters of color. this cycle i think we're going to see kind of an equal and opposite force. i think the cultural wars are back with a vengeance, and mike pence walking that back is the clear sign, i think we have seen thus far, that that is exactly how this race is going to be. run >> by the, way donald and did make inroads with black and latino voters. he just lost all those white voters in the suburbs. you are covering the white house when trump signed that into law. >> but it's one of the areas where trump normally has pretty good -- where the republican bases. we saw that in 2016, was not alive in the sense aligned with how majority of republicans felt. but this is what is going to be so interesting to watch when they're on the debate stage, which is how ponce, running now against trump, distances himself the from things they did while he was very much is vice president. it's not just on this. it's also on guns. you heard them talking about red flag laws earlier. he's also distanced himself from things that he and trump are pushing for, mainly, trump after the parkland, shooting things like red flag, was potentially raising the age to buy guns like ar-15s. those are things that pence has now come out and distance himself from. so how do you cite your experience as a vice president but also distance yourself from the decisions that your administration made? >> also a question for nikki haley, who i think is gonna be in a similar boat and some of the trump era policies. >> it does seem though that donald trump is not going to be the most conservative candidate in the race. rhonda santas -- and mike pence's to his right on many issues, even more to the right of ron desantis when it comes to more traditional republican policies. >> none of them are donald trump and right now that is what the republican base wants. they are, i mean, the difference in the numbers, 29, 30 points? he's leading by? with all of the baggage of january 6th. with all of the indictments. >> and some pending. >> and some banding. by the way, i will just say a former senior justice department official said to me, when we heard about the target letter today, quote, buckle up. so there is a sense in that community, this is going forward. i just want to go back to something we discussed earlier, which was, former vice president vice mike pence said i have no interest or no intention of pardoning anyone who broke the law. no one is above the law. but with regard to, with donald trump, unique circumstances here -- >> right, so very law and order wakes up when it comes to one man. >> and let's remember, trump is under investigation about january 6th. >> sure. >> so this will be another opportunity for pence to weigh in on whether or not he should face charges in that case as well and whether he would pardon him. >> very, very interesting. my thanks to the panel with me here in washington, d. c., and everyone else out there for staying up. so goodnight from here. >> and jake, the best they were staying up late, is you can get the unconditional tonight town hall, which is next. trump takes his [inaudible] honors panels. he is a genius for setting up the constructs. and the whole campaign is built for this purpose in some way which is to say that when they come after him, this is the deep state trying to silence him -- >> he's got a whole lot of people following, and mike pence and manchin is acknowledging that and the movement that trump has built behind him. >> the bottom line is that his base is going to stand with him no matter what, and if an indictment comes down in this case, and any other legal jeopardy that he's facing, they're going to stand by him. but, let me just say one thing, big picture-wise we had a few great town halls, open up viewers eyes to a lot of these candidates and we will have more. i'm just going to say, this from the republican side of the table, and i think that we have spent a lot of progress in the four years in 2020 and we had an embarrassment. this, year we have an embarrassment of riches. we have great candidates, forward thinking, optimistic and today, at this, when they are charismatic and they are ready to go out there on the trail and work hard to win over these votes and many of them are regretting just from the pace. so, i'm encouraged by the fact that we have many choices out there. >> yes, you've seen the polls and anderson don't pre jack, let's let anderson in. >> [inaudible] today, the vice president tried to use the war in ukraine to attack his nominations for president. we'll be right back. meet gold bond healing. a powerhouse lotion that moisturizes, heals, and smooths dry skin. with 7 moisturizers and 3 vitamins, you can pay more but you can't get more. gold bond. champion your skin. ahhh! icy hot pro starts working instantly. with two max-strength pain relievers, so you can rise from pain like a pro. icy hot pro. introducing the limited edition disney collection from blendjet. nine exciting designs your whole family will adore blendjet 2 is portable, which means you can blend up nutritious smoothies, protein shakes, or frozen treats, just about anywhere! recharge quickly via usb-c. it even cleans itself. order yours now from blendjet.com and bring a little disney into your life. one of the areas during tonight's town hall where the former vice president tried to draw a sharp contrast between himself and the former boss, donald trump was the war in ukraine. >> your former boss, donald trump said in his cnn town hall, he was us whether he wanted ukraine to win the war. and, he would not say. what message does that send to vladimir putin? >> well frankly when vladimir putin rolled into ukraine, the former president called him a genius. i know the difference between a genius in a war criminal and i know who needs to win in the war in ukraine and it's the people fighting for their freedom and fighting to restore their national sovereignty in ukraine and in america it is not our war but freedom is our front. and we need to give the people of ukraine the ability to fight. >> i'm joined now by cnn senior international correspondent, sam kiley, who is talking to us from ukraine's capital kyiv, i know it's late there, something you so much, how do you think former vice president pence's answer will be viewed inky? >> i think it will be food very, very positively indeed as i think will be applause that followed who's on equivocal statement that he would be backing ukraine, there are jitters not that the president zelenskyy here is very skilled as a diplomat, to draw attention to him but they're on very serious traders within the ukrainian administration about the future support from the united states if there is a republican prejudiced and see. and that of course is a long way off they're very close to the biden administration who the american people under the biden administration are very generous indeed to ukraine. and they know that without american support i would probably be standing here under russian legislation or russian attacks. i think it would be very strongly welcomed indeed this absolutely unequivocal position struck by mr. comes. and we heard a similar thing from chris christie in my interview with him earlier today and governor nikki haley in the town hall, we had with on sunday. all three of them having that position. what is your sense of how the kremlin will view the comments of mike pence and chris christie and nikki haley, all of them home have been very much in favor of the ukrainians are very much opposed to putting on the war. >> i think that they will have a favorite in this race with a question that will be donald trump, definitely top of the list of vladimir putin's preferred president of the united states and i think also somewhat rattled in the kremlin 's not there does seem to be a union amongst the other candidate in the primaries because the kremlin has been banking or hoping to be able to see the republicans putting pressure and fiscal pressure on the funding runs of the much-needed weapon. to particularly their defenses and quite probably substantive safer f-16s for example. some very hefty items on the federal budget that they will be hoping the republicans would shy away from signing off on. so with the relative level of unanimity, it is very clear where the criminal stand on the. >> all right, sam kiley thank you so much appreciated. next back to the debate we talked to just a moment ago on what the former vice president said about crime and criminal justice in the united states. our john miller will join right after this quick break [interpreter] of doing other things i've been putting off. like removing that tattoo of your first wife's name. inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. i'll always take care of you. ♪ i'm gonna hold you forever... ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ be by your side... ♪ ♪ i'll be there... ♪ the sleep number climate360 smart bed is the only smart bed in the world that actively cools, warms, and effortlessly responds to both of you for up to 44 minutes more restful sleep per night. save $1,500 on the sleep number climate360 smart bed. shop now only at sleep number. with gold bond... you can age on your own terms. retinol overnight means... the smoothing benefits of retinol. are now for your whole body. plus, fast-working crepe corrector diminishes wrinkled skin in just two days. gold bond. champion your skin. - [announcer] do you have an invention idea but don't know what to do next? call invent help today. they can help you get started with your idea. call now 800-710-0020. welcome, back we discuss this with the panels earlier. the former vice president's position on the first step act. here's what he said about the crime policy, and what he called a step back from the first step. how would you handle the increased primaries in our city? well first and foremost, -- i would say, we're not going to defund the police, we're going to stay closely and then we passed it was called the first step back. at the federal level. president trump signed, in and when i was governor of, state in indiana, we signed similar legislation. but, in the legislation, that we passed, we not only created an opportunity to try and reduce recidivism, and people going back to prison over and over again, to give them a new start, in the, life to make an honest living. , but we also raised the penalties. we raised the penalties on serious contenders. >> i think we need to take a step back from the approach of the first step act. we need to get serious and tough on violent crime. , and we need to give our cities and our states the resources to restore law and order to our streets. >> governor ron desantis. he has said that if he's elected, he wants to repeal the first step act. >> well, let me just say, i think we need to take a step back. and, rethink the first step back. and we have a crime wave in our major cities. and i think, now more than ever, we ought to be thinking about how we make the penalties tougher on people that are victimizing families in this country. so, on that point, i would agree with others. >> cnn chief law enforcement, as was watching the debate and he joins us now. i remember what stood out to you. and how is? that >> well, anderson, he prepared for the question. but, he's also trapped in some of the conundrums of the standard republican platform which is full support of the police who comes out for stiffer sentencing's for criminals, a swift capital punishment for school shooters and -- >> he talked about accelerated due process leading to execution. >> that's. right, and more police in schools. , and on the other hand, when you talk to him about, and he brought this up, south side of chicago, memorial day weekend, 45, shootings ten people, dead his parents grew up, there he said it was very sad for chicago but not in favor of sweeping gun control measures, small weapons banned, red flag laws which really relates to the active shooters. the mass shootings. , and he said you, know we don't want to take guns away from people who lawfully possess. them, so with the full support of police, there are places where he finds himself at odds with the international association of chiefs of police. and the national -- >> he also pointed out that from chicago a lot of the guns come, actually, from his state of indiana. >> that is. right, and -- >> but it didn't over particularly well. >> no. and i, mean this is a thing where you also have to ask what are you prepared to do as president. it's going to be different. , but what effect a president can have on rising controlled by state legislatures. and, elected district attorneys about enforcement. >> well, appreciated. thanks so much. jake? >> anderson. thanks so much. some final thoughts now from our panel. let's talk about the criminal justice reform. because, first of, all donald trump himself has criticize the criminal justice reform. bill and we have mike pence, separated from, it rhonda scent is called it like a pro-jailbreak bill or something. what do you think? >> well, i think one of the questions is beyond just the issue of criminal justice. mike pence had an opportunity, tonight, to talk about the crisis in policing. , and he talked about not wanting to defund the police. which is one political talking point. but the real crisis in policing is one of police leaving the police forces in recruitment. the fraternal where police is, is a natural crisis in police recruitment. nobody wants to become a police officer right now because the environment is so difficult, the job is so difficult, it's in part, really did, to the gun problem because many police chiefs are actually in favor of some level of gun safety. >> for. >> yes, guns make them unsafe. and the environment has make it more difficult for policing in general. and the criticism of police that have come into response in acts of police fatalities. so, there is a real problem with policing. and mike pence, maybe in the future, he will talk about it a little. because it's an issue that some candidates are going to have to address if this country wants to make forward progress on safety and cities. >> i think that you'll hear the campaign trail for a lot of republicans, that the answers just that. police are being demonizing. and that is the end of the story. but, obviously, it's a lot more complex than. that, and the solution will be more complex. i will also see that on the first step act, it is not surprising to see pence walking that back. i covered the trump administration, when they were trying to pass this. and, republicans, find large, were really never fully on board with this. and, this was always something that was the like of senator tom cotton and he has been vocally against the attorney general bill barr at the time was privately against. it and publicly very lukewarm on it, but it is sad because i think some of the cases that these side are actually quite rare. but the first of aqua supposed to speak to more broadly the need for the criminal justice system to be responsive -- to people getting sentences that were not proportionate to the, crime not even proportionate to other people of different races who committed the same crimes. , but that is not the kind of nuanced conversation we're gonna have in the cycle. i also think it represents a huge turnaround. trump wanted to do. that because they saw they could make inroads with black voters, voters of colors. this cycle, i think we're going to see kind of an equal and opposite force. and i think that the culture wars are back with a vengeance. and, mike pence, walking that, back is a clear side i think we've seen thus far. that is exactly how this race is going to be. brought >> by the, way donald trump did make an appearance with black and latino voters. it just that he lost all the white voters in the suburbs. you are covering it with the white house. when trump signed into law. >>, well it's one of the areas where, trump normally, has been in sync with the republican bases, we saw this in 2016, he was not aligned with them in the sense of how a majority of republicans felt on capitol hill. but, this is what's going to be so interesting to watch when they're on the debate stage. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. hi, i'm michael, i've lost 70 pounds on golo. i spent thousands on other diets that didn't work. on golo, i spent a couple hundred bucks and got back down to my high school weight. you're not gonna believe this thing is possible but it is. if you think you, a child in your care, or another loved one were harmed by endo or a related company, including par or ams, or their products including ranitidine, transvaginal mesh, or opioids like opana®, opana® er, or percocet®, your rights may be affected by deadlines in the endo bankruptcy. you may be entitled to payment as part of endo's bankruptcy, but you must file a claim by july 7, 2023. you may file a claim on behalf of yourself, a child in your care (including a child exposed to opioids in the womb), or a deceased or disabled relative. also, if you hold a claim or interest in endo, the deadline to object to the potential sale of endo's assets is july 7, 2023. for more information visit endoclaims.com ahhh! icy hot pro starts working instantly. with two max-strength pain relievers, so you can rise from pain like a pro. icy hot pro.