you see him here with governor perry. in his introduction he did not use the word cult or specifically attack romney by name but there was no doubt he had the former massachusetts governor in mind when he drew there is contrast. >> do we want a candidate who is skilled in rhetoric or one skilled in leadership? do we want a candidate who is a conservative out of convenience or one who is a conservative out of deep conviction? do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person or do we want a candidate who is a born-again follower of the lord jesus christ? rick perry is a prompt leader. he is a true conservative. and he is a genuine follower of jesus christ. >> it was in a conversation with reporters after that dr. jeffers used the term cult. pastor of the first baptist church in dallas. he with us now. you're criticism of 0 the mormon church, you came today to a political event, an event very, very important to governor perry stumbling in the polls of late and you dropped this, what i'm going to call a bomb, going after governor romney, why? >> well, first of all, as you noted, john, i did not refer to mormonism as a cult in my opening introduction of governor per perry. governor perry had no knowledge of what i was going to say ahead of time. this is not an unusual view, john that mormonism is not christianity. historical christianity has never embraces mormonism ace part of its faith. for many years the southern baptist convention did label it on its official website as a cult. that's not saying that mitt romney's a bad person i'm think he's a good person. a moral person but he dent embrace the historical ten. tenets of christianity. i think conservatives have plenty of reasons, leaving morinism out of it, not to be energized by mitt romney candidacy. >> you understand the moment, sir, governor perry has been struggling, you came to endorse him as an individual, introduce him today. you say you had no conversations with the perry campaign at all about what you were going to say? >> no, none at all. i was a guest here. the family research council, not governor perry. >> speaking to reporters after and you say voting for romney would give credibility to a cult. there are 16 million southern baptists in the united states, so your church has 10,000 members, there are 16 million southern baptists. are you saying that they would be giving credibility to a cult if they vote for governor romney? >> well i have always said, john, given the choice between mitt romney and barack obama, i would vote for mitt romney. i think it is much better for those of us who are evangelical christians to have a nonchristian who embraces biblical values in the white house than to have a professing christian like barack obama who addresses and embraces up biblical positions. and so, while i am hesitant and would be at this stage, when we can choose a christian candidate for office, i do think there may come a time when it's the lesser of two evils. and so i would not say under no circumstances would i vote for mitt romney, but it was john jay, the first chief justice of the supreme court, who said we have the duty and privilege to vote and select christians as our leaders. and again, mitt romney's a good, moral person, but he done embrace historical christianity. i'm not sure why that's news. that has been the position of evangelical christians for a long time. >> it has been but it's news that you dit thd it at this eve. whether president obama and mitt romney, you would vote for mitt romney. governor perry stumbled and this was an event a stepping stone back from his perspective. you decided right now to try to stop mitt romney, didn't you? >> no, that's not true. i was asked personally in a conference after my induction about why i personally would be hesitant to vote for a mormon, and i gave a very honest answer, that i fell like it would give credibility to a nonchristian religion. that was me personally, that had nothing to do with governor perry, and it occurred after the event. this i a historical conviction of mine. in 2007 i said the very same thing was in the news media talking about mormonism. this is not some new belief of minor that of evangelical christians either. >> it's not a new belief of yours but it is an issue, a hurdle sometimes to his candidacy that governor romney tried to put behind him. this is fox news radio back in september when asks about the role of his faith in his candidacy. >> you know i know there are some for whom religion is the most important issue and i may lose some of those votes. but for the great majority of americans they want to see this country going again. >> governor romney's due to be at that very event where you are, sir, values voters conference, due to be there tomorrow. he would not comment on this tonight. would you spend time with him? anything he could do to convince you that he is a christian in? he says he's a christian and mormonism is not a couplculp an he could do. >> i would be glad to visit with gvr romney about that. i don't hate governor romney. he's a good, moral person. but as a past somewhere preacher of the gospel of jesus christ i have the responsibility to proclaim what the bible proclaim, there are not numerous revelations of the book of mormon, the bible teaches that there is one way to god, and that is through faith alone in jesus christ. so i have to be faithful to my calling as a pastor. and when asked a question by an interviewer after an introduction today, instead of saying no comment, i have a responsibility as a proclaimer of truth to tell the truth. >> and as a proclaimer of truth, in your view, will you tell your worships are back in dallas, will you go to other places in the country, and express that same opinion that a vote for romney would be to give credibility to a cult? >> i would say that, certainly. i would say why a christian ought to vote for another crittian. this coming sun in my church i'm preaching a message on how a christian should vote. four questions, every christian should ask before they vote for a candidate and in my new book coming out in january, "twilight's last gleaming "ize talk about the issue why it's so important for christians to vote for competent christians. but the issue goes beyond romney's faith. he is not a consistent conservative. he is no not consistently embraced biblical values that we feel strongly about, like the sangtity of life and the sank thisty of marriage and i think there are many reasons, even if you don't care about his faith if you're a conservative not to vote for mitt romney. >> and those are issues that are being litigated in the campaign, in the many dedates we have had, being litigated. governor perry questions governor romney's commitment. to bring religion into it, when it's been an aobstacle for him in the past, that's not been accident, sir. >> well, i was asked a question by areporter -- >> you put out a press release earlier about your endorsement and drew distinctions in that. >> yes. that's right. and in that press release there was not the word "cult" used there, was there in. >> you're right. if your speech and appearance you would draw a distinction. we reached out to the church of latter day saints about your remarks and they said, we don't want to comment on a statement made at a political event but those who want to understand the centrality of christ to our faith can learn more about us and what we believe by going to mormon.org. have you ever been to the website? ever spent any time with mormon ministers trying to see if there's maybe you can bridge the gap between your view of cult and their view they are christians, good christians? >> part of it, john, it's not an embracing of historic christianity. the term "cult" that's a pejorative word to some but in theological terms a cult is a religion that has a human leader instead of divine leader. our leader is jesus christ. joseph smith is founder of the mormon church. we believe the bible is god's sole revelation to man. so by a theological definition, not a sociological definition, theological definition, they are a cult. but again, so few of your viewers probably care about that for conservatives, there are many more pressing issues regarding the presidency and especially why we need a consistent conservative like rick perry than a recent damascus road convert to conservative principles like mitt romney. >> dr. jeffers. from governor perry, the only statement we could get from him he does not believe mormonisms a couple. does that make governor perry any less of a christian because he doesn't agree with you? >> new york not at all. many christians would disagree, possibly some of my own church members, john. but it's in all how define the terms. i don't think this is the big issue of mormonism being a cult or not. it's how you define the term. i think the reali issue is we republicans need a conservative one out of conviction, not out of convenience. and i believe that that's the only kind of person who's going to energize conservative evangelicals to vote. my own feeling is if mitt romney is the republican candidate, i believe barack obama will be the next president of the united states. i remain people all the time, john, that in 2008, 30 million evangelical christians sat at home and didn't vote because they were not enter guienter gud by mccain. for all of those who say a candidate's faith makes no difference there's a large core of evangelicals to whom its a issue. when we can select a christian we ought to do so. in the general election, if it's romney or barack obama, i'll probab probably hole my nose and vote for romney. >> you've ignited a bit of a controversial. appreciate you having the willingness to explain your views to us. we'll keep in touch. when we come back, more on the breaking news story, including an interview with the man helping to organize that event, tony perkins of the family research council. when anybody in america calls quicken loans for a free home loan review, we'll offer them a free android smartphone. but how are you gonna get these phones to our clients coast to coast? 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[ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. but not in my neighborhood. ♪ [ female announcer ] we're throwing away misperceptions about natural gas vehicles. more of the vehicles that fuel our lives use clean american natural gas today. it costs about 40 percent less than gasoline, so why aren't we using it even more? start a conversation about using more natural gas vehicles in your community. continuing coverage of tonight's breaking political news. a southern baptist endorses rick perry but tells conservative that mormonism is a couple, voting for mitt romney who is a mormon would be, quote, giving credibility to a cult. joining us tony perkins he helped organize the value voters are summit and president of family research council. do you consider mormonism a cult? >> you know, my role here, john, is not from a -- to analyze theologically but i will tell you this -- >> do you view evangelicals to be a cult? why is that a tough question? >> john, i do not see mormonism the sim as christianity. whether it's defined as a cult, i don't know. i would say it's not christianity the way evangelicals view christianity. there's a distinction. there's no question there's a theological distinction between mormonism and christianity. but what we're focused here at the values voters summit is values and values issues. what people are looking for is where candidates stand on issues, where they stand on the life issue, where they stand -- wait a minute -- where they stand on marriage, where they stand on the family, as well as the other issues. and mitt romney has articulated positions consistent on those views and that's why he's comfortable in coming here to speak to value voters. >> he's coming there to speak tomorrow. now he's coming there in the middle of the dustup caused by dr. jeffress, who governor perry was talking about governor romney talking about inconsistenties and dr. jeffress raises issues about the romney record, fair game, in the round of politics. do you think it's fair game for him to tell reporters, and le understands, tony you, understand moment we're in in the campaign, governor perry has been struggling governor romney has a big lead, he leads in a poll that came outer in iowa. there's a big question about evangelical voters in iowa and south carolina. will this time around more of them perhaps embrace governor romney, maybe they have reservations about his mormon faith and then, bang, a minister says it's a cult, voting for him would be lending credibility to a cult. that is the message you want coming out of your event? >> no, no, and i think it's unfortunate that was discussed at this time. that's not the purpose of this event. this is a values voters summit where people of different faiths -- general evangelical, social, conservative catholics are coming together, but we have mormons that come here as well. in last several years mormons and evangelicals works together. marriage would not be protects had not mormons and evangelicals work together. it's important that we focus on the issues and that's the purpose of this event, focus on issues, find the candidate who articulates and has strong positions that can move the country back in the right direction. >> the perry campaign says they had nothing to did with the introduction, it was the organizers. i assume that means you or somebody that works with you who picked dr. jeffress. is that right? was the perry campaign given any heads up this would be the man introducing him because dr. jeffress is on record with these views in the past. i assume the perry campaign could have stopped this. >> i think how, as i talked to my staff what happened, media consultant approached us about dr. jeffress making the introduction and i know him, and so we sent it to the campaign, they signed off on it, he made the introduction. i don't think there was any other communication beyond than the campaign did not know what he would say. we did not know what he would say. >> when did they sign off on it? when did they sign off on it? >> i think they were notified a couple of weeks ago someone had been recommended to introduce the governor. >> it's an interesting point a couple of weeks ago. forgive me, it's an interesting point, dr. jeffress stirred up this controversy back in 20007 when governor romney was running in the 2008 campaign saying the same thing. you're certain the perry campaign had a two week heads up? >> yeah. whether or not they, you know, they just took it as a recommendation from us and moved on, i don't know. but we -- we're not going to allow anybody to introduce a candidate unless they campaign signs off on it or at least is knowledgeable about it. >> can governor romney come in there tomorrow, not address this or do you assume he was going to do that anyway? >> john, nobody here's talking about it. this is all in the news on the outside because this was not said from the stage. i haven't even seen the actual comments that were made after the introduction. so this isn't even being discusses here at conference. and i think mitt romney has been here at the values voters summit every year since we began and every year he has delivered a solid message. in fact, recall he won the straw poll one year here. he's going to come into an environment that people will be receptive to his message and listening intently to what he has to say. >> tony perkins, appreciate your time. we'll be watching the event as it plays out tomorrow. joining us now, ed rollins, david gergen, and democratic strategist paul begala. ed, you first because of your experience in republican politics. does this hurt governor romney to have this stirred up again? and does this help or hurt governor perry to have a minister endorse governor perry and then walk into the room and say his was answering a question but call mormonism a cult and say a vote for romney is to give a cult credibility. >> i find the comments disturbing and i think it's not reverend jeffress is not the only one that shares these views having work for two evangelical christians in the last two campaigns, there's certain anti-mormonism that you find, not by mike huckabee, not by michele bachmann. i think the bottom line is it bother me ace catholic who saw great bias against john kennedy, as a man who was married to a jew on this holiest of day and the father of a chinese child any one of these things, catholicism, judaism or chinese could be issues of prejudice and i find prejudice to be something that people need to push away and the political process and you call something a cult, you may disagree with romney on many issues but he's a devout man, he shares values that they're talking about at this conference. he's a front-runner of our party and for anybody to say not to vote for him because his religion is a cult, i find it just outrageous and i think it disturbs our party and i think it basically gives the wrong impression of republicanism. >> paul, you're a democrat but you do campaign as well as anybody in the business. for this to happen at there's day, at there's time, governor perry coming to the forum, after he's been stumbling, down in the polls, conservatives have seen a few things in the record, immigration, hp vaccine, this gets stirred up, 54% of south carolina identify themselves as born-again evangelicals, 60% of iowa republican caucus voters i.d. thep as born-again evangelicals. i assume this was done with a point. >> from dr. jeffress, i don't think in defense of rick perry, it's going to shock you, that politicians should be held accountable for everything every support says. this is not rick perry's fault. >> even with two weeks' heads up someone's supposed to run that? he's from dal alsdallas. the perry campaign is headquartered in austin, texas. if they didn't know it off the surface don't they have a responsibility when their candidate is struggling to check out everybody who is going to speak for him. >> that's a good point. i'm wearing my texas lapel pin, my cult is texas, yes my state is represented by an underachieving governor and a prejudice pastor. i do think that the statement perry put out post facto. prefacto he should have caught. he said i don't think mormonism is a cult. he should have spoken out gej the prejudice. i want to believe he's not a prejudice man. he should have stood up. he's not responsible for this top don't be too hard on perry. i think he looks weak in not standing up to a prejudice position. >> we'll continue the conversation. david, first impression, mitt romney walks into the same event tomorrow. does he ignore it or take it head on? >> i don't think mitt romney ought to talk about it very much i do think rick perry should talk about it. it's just issuing a statement through a press release is insufficient. this statement by the pastor hurts rick perry, it does not hurt mitt romney. if anything, it may get the issue out on the table where it can be disposed of and ecan