90% of contribute ptripoli. one of his three captured sons has escaped. let's he get the late frst from libya and sara sidner. first tell me what's going on there in zawiya. >> reporter: we were hearing a lot of loud booms, a lot of what sounded like mortar fire. there was definitely small arms fire. it sounded like this was a firefight and we went and checked it out. and we think that we have confirmed, we've only talked to one of the rebels who has not been down at the square, but we think that it is again celebratory fire. but what they're using are things like anti-aircraft missiles. so it is very loud. it's hard to tell what exactly is going on. then we started hearing ambulances. we know zawiya has been under the control of rebels for about three days and we know that this has been a place that has been relatively rid of gadhafi forces for that period of time. and they've pushed all the way into tripoli from here. but it is disconcerting when you start seeing tracer fire coming over your head and harnlg large amounts over and over and over again for several hours. >> particularly when you know there are still a fight going on for libya itself. let me take you back to earlier in your very long day. you went to tripoli and back. tell us about that trip, tell us about what you saw. >> reporter: we got up early in the morning, we went back into the city after dawn to see what it was like because in the overnight hours, when we were there about 3:00, 4:00 in the morning, things were pretty tense, although people were celebrating in the green square there which the rebels now want everyone to refer to as martyr square. but we wanted to see in daylight what exactly was happening and what we saw was sort of an eerie scene at first. there was no one to stop us, very few checkpoints that the rebels had set up, very few. we got into the city, we got to the very edge of the city, and we watched just people taking their time, driving in all of he's rebel trucks and then we started seeing some of the celebrations in the city. some of the rebels standing around in complete disbelief that they've been able to get into the city so easily without having what they thought was going to be a massive firefight, they thought her going they werg to be faced with a large contingent of gadhafi forces and those forces never materialized. this fight isn't over. it they were still fighting this afternoon in the square.forces . this fight isn't over. it they were still fighting this afternoon in the square. but we're not seeing those numbers that we heard gadhafi go on state television and state radio saying that he had. we have not seen them. and i think that's also surprised the rebels and perhaps some of the civilians who have stayed behind. >> surprising pretty much everybody. sara sidner, thanks so much. president obama hasn't given up on his vacation, but he is getting regular briefings on developments in libya and spoke by phone with david cameron. he also went before cameras to sound a note of caution saying he wants to family size, quote, this is not over yet. >> the situation is still very fluid. there remains a degree of uncertainty and there is still regime elements who pose a threat. but this much is clear. the gadhafi regime is coming to an end. and the future of libya is in the hands of its people. >> for more perspective on libya and what this means, we're joined by two foreign policy experts. nicholas burns is a former u.s. ambassador to nato and robert kagam is senior fellow with the brookings institute. thank you both. let me start out with moammar gadhafi. are there any options for him at this point? nick, i'll start with you. >> i think there are very few options. even a couple weeks ago, he had the option of making some kind of a deal. the european government wanted to make a deal where he might even stay in the country if he gave up power. other governments are willing to take him. but if he's still in the country, i don't think there's any possibility of another government taking him. he's going to have to make a fateful decision. does he fight for the last person, does he hold out saddam hussein-like and hope his proceponents will fight with hi. or should he resign. and it's an important question because how the war ends will write the next chapter of libya's history. if it ends in vengeance and further blood shed, it will make it all too difficult for the rebel government to become a government of all the people of libya and to bipd up a country that has been brutalized over the whas last 40 years. >> robert, from what we know from knnomar gadhafi, he seem a fight to the bitter end kind of guy. what's your take? >> i wouldn't begin to try to understand the mind of moammar gadhafi. he will probably do lots of things this that we wouldn't anticipate. he had an opportunity to get out both gracefully, possibly live the rest of his life somewhere and allow his country to settle this in peace. he hasn't chosen that yet, but i think it would be foolish to try to predict what he'll do now. >> desperate men do desperate things. what is left to do militarily if anything? >> i think he's finished militarily. it's just a question of how bloody it will be on his way down. if it's true that both his sons have been captured, he can't be in a very strong position otherwise that wouldn't have happened. so i think it's just a question of how bloody it will be at the end. one can only pray that there's some semblance of humanity left in that man and he doesn't want to get more people killed in a futile gesture. >> we heard from the president who said basically that this all began with the u.n. security council resolution that was pushed by the u.s. and here's what he had to say about how this all came about. >> an unprecedented compaalitio was formed that include the united states and arab partners and launched an operation to save lives and stop gadhafi's forces. >> is that indeed, nick, what turned this toward the rebels? was it nato, was this resolution, is that where this began? is that where the end began, let me future it that wput it that . >> there were a lot of people, including me, very skeptical that the united states and nato should go into another arab country. but the brdpresident's right. the fact that the u.n. security council blessed the braoperatio the fact that there was a seize of benghazi i think is what really forced the president to make the decision and he matt right decision to put nato in. and i think in the last couple of weeks, nato found its putting. nato couldn't find a way to tip the balance in favor of the rebel ally apsz, begheny lie an the they fought valiantly. there's been a spectacular victory over the last couple days. it wouldn't have happened in my opinion without the u.s. and allies. >> the president was criticized throughout this, this is where the phrase leading from behind came. the u.s. went in there at first for the first week or so and then it pulled back and it let nato forces, other nato forces, do the bulk of the work. does that now not seem like the right decision? it's turning out okay, isn't it? >> yeah, you know, there were obviously many lives lost if this continuing could have happened faster, if we could have gotten to this point sooner, perhaps with greater u.s. military action early on. i think there probably would be some people alive today. but nevertheless, this has ban a success. it will go down in history as a success and ultimately by the way it will go down in misser to as a success of u.s. leadership. none of this would have been possible without the united states. not only the opening military effort, but also the ability to corral an international community to get a u.n. security council resolution, to get nato on board. and it is unpress tentcedented the arab nations also supporting it. and it's a real blow no american leadership in a time when a lot of people have doubted whether the united states can still play in a kind of constructive roll in these situations. >> let's me ask you one of the question that's out this. we do believe that there are stockpiles of mustard gas and other chemical weapons surface on air missiles. presumably someplace locked up, but do we know, do both of you and i'll start with you, nick, have confidence that we know where these are and that these rebels which really is a collection of people who took up arms almost spontaneously after one after the other, do we believe that they will safe guard these weapons or are you worried about it? >> i'm worried about it as are many others. i don't believe we can have confidence now because of course as gadhafi forces have been in control of all the munitions and weapons in libya for the most part, and so there has to be a transformation from the people's army into an effective government over the next several days and weeks if we're to secure -- if they're to secure the weaponries because if they were to get out and proliferate, it could do untold damage on the united states. and i think it points to another issue. the obama admin stragts made a big point of saying the europeans and arabs should be leading. and i think that needs to extend to the after math of the fighting. if there is going be an effort it rebuild, of course the united states should participate, but the europeans should do more because france and italy and spain have greater historical social economic interests and certain the arab country shoes do more to help the libyans. president obama was criticized. it turns tout have been a wise policy. it does spread the burden and the burden should still rest on the issue of weapons and on economic aid i think with the european allies and with the arab neighbors. >> that the point do you have another faith in whoever these rebels are and whoever their leaders are that they can keep all of this weaponry -- first of all, do we know where it is and that they can keep all this weaponry from falling in to the wrong hands and that could be terrorist organizations buying them from someone? >> i have faith in the good intentions. they've been very inclusive, very clear about who is in their ranks. but at the end of the day, i don't know what their capacities are to find this stuff and to secure it. we will have to talk about some of the difficult issues like what kind of international roll will have to be mayed in libya once gadhafi has fallen. economic aid certainly, but we're going to be facing questions pretty early on about whether there has to be something more including perhaps some international forces that can go in and secure weaponry if the rebels are unable to do so. >> thank you both so much for your expertise tonight. >> thank. >> thank you. ahead, the national hurricane center warns irene may be a major hurricane by the time it closes in it on the east coast this week. what residents should be doing to prepare. and what will libya look like if gadhafi's four decade rule comes to an end? that's next. 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>> i interviewed him several times. >> everybody has a bizarre moammar gadhafi story and i know you've met him, as well, fran. so let me ask you both just as a start off and more specific, and that is what is he apt to do now? it seems to me you can be saddam hussein and crawl in a hole and help they don't find you, you kill yourself, you are killed or you give up. >> this was a man who had and a half navigated his reentry. he's now gone. the main son left to advise who runs one of the key military units that is protecting tripoli and the inner circle. and he's the one person who will be with his father. and so when you look at what are the scenarios, the military option seems far more likely than some kind of negotiated surrender. >> and you think there's more fight left in gadhafi? >> potentially more fight, but it's either capture and kill rather than some kind negotiation. >> i think he's going to fight it the bitter end, but i did from the very beginning. i never thought he would negotiate his way out. he has a messianic vision of himself. and i think that he desires if he can't remain in power, he said it himself, he wants hiss flood to darken the soil of libya and he wants to go towndos a martyr. >> so if you're sitting in syria tonight or supposedly you're in bahrain and you're a leadernd you're looking at what's happening to gadhafi, is there a signal in there? >> i think this is the beginning of phase two, that we not only the pressure on on gadhafi, but the international community from washington to tokyo getting together and saying that assad is no longer a legitimate leader and then you also have the trial playing out of mubarak that awful these things are signaling and injecting a new kind offed a dren wherein, a new energy in the arab uprisings and that we're likely to see things bubble. >> message to the streets maybe even more to the leaders. >> i think that's right. if you're a part of syrian opposition, you look at this and say i thought time was not on my side. maybe time -- many it's okay that our consistency and persistence over time may be our great strength and may still force change. so i think there's still inspirational in to the streets of syria. >> and what about the template looking at the international community new the u.n., getting a resolution, nato then acting on that resolution with the u.s. spear heading but the back seat thing and putting nato out in front without the u.s. being the only part of nato, how does that serve as a template for any place else in the middle east or are these just all such different places in a that it d fit anywhere else? >> libya was a special case because of gadhafi's year rerra behavior. pam a.m. 103. >> so it was okay not to like him. >> and fran and i probably disagree on this, the united states got an arab league endorsement for international intervention and went to the united nations and worked through the world e's largest military alliance. this is not something that the united states and its allies could use for example in a place like syria. this is a one time deal. and it's a good thing for the obama administration that he doesn't face this again, but libya's -- >> this is a special circumstance. >> and remember gadhafi had alienated other heads of state in the arab world x most he , m especially, the king of sauddy arabia. he was not viewed as one of them. that's different with assad. there are close ties with syria. so getting the arab league to invite you in works in libya to robin's point, but not to syria. >> so talk to me about what lies ahead. because we just have been told over these months these are shopkeepers and some professionals and then young children and they take 18, 19, 20-year-olds, taking up weapons and this is a people's rebellion and i'm thinking how do they now -- they have to put together a government and we've seen in egypt that's not all that easy. >> libya is very different from egypt and tunisia. this is a place where they've had more than five months of a traditional national council that's had to do everything from work with a wide array of political players and also learn how to collect the garbage, that it has some practical experience in governments. this is also the one country of the 22 arab members that has a very small population, 6.5 million people. and enormous oil well. this is the one place that could actually provide tangible rewards and economic gains, a country that now has 30% unemployment it in rebuilding the country and has the finances to do it. and that's not something you find in egypt with 85 million people and no oil wells. there's no other place that has the things going for it that libya does even though it's got 140 tribes, and a lot of differences that will make the transition messy. >> so give me the other side of that. >> i'm not quite so optimistic. the bureaucracy and organization that makes a government work, it is true it say the transitional national council has had these months of experience, but there will be spoilers in this. as gadhafi forces melt away and dessert him and take off their uniforms and go back into the civilian population, we have to be worried and the tnc's got to be worried about a potential insurgency. take off your uniform, melt in the population, live to fight another day. you hope that you don't see that in libya, but they're certainly vulnerable. >> and the looting that we saw in the aftermath of iraq, that's -- seems there's so many variables here for what is now once again a very young country. >> but this is also a place where the transition has been enacted by the locals. this is not where a country where a foreign army has come in and alienated the locals questioning the intent of a foreign nation where al qaeda could exploit a foreign presence. is this a country where most of the action, august though backed by nato in terms of air power, has played out on on the ground by nato in terms of air power, has played out on on the ground. s question is you can get the different militias that have played out, you can get these two sides traditionally different part of the country, you can get them to koopts. and th cooperate. this is where the international community can play an important role and reminding them what democracy really is. >> so you would agree there is a core there that wasn't really there in iraq? >> they have the oil wealth has rob bensite sit sites. >> tourism. >> right. >> huge tourism. >> fran, rosh bin, thank you so much for joining us. our next guest has met face to face with gadhafi as well and he has serious concerns about libya's stockpile of chemical weapons. or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business -- it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities, so we're helping them with advice from local business experts and extending $18 billion in credit last year. that's how we're helping set opportunity in motion. i don't always have time to eat like i should. that's why i like glucerna shakes. they have slowly digestible carbs to help minimize blood sugar spikes, which can help lower a1c. [ male announcer ] glucerna. helping people with diabetes find balance. the top democrat on the house select intel against committee says u.s. actions in libya protected america's national security as well as security worldwide. but what happens now to the weapons of mass destruction? the congressman from baltimore joining us. i wanted to read something there your statement that caught our attention. you said we must also ensure radical extremist groups do not take control of the country. libya has a large stockpile of chemical weapons and explosives