loong. his nation has got many kudos for its handling of the coronavirus crisis. what lessons might america learn from what that city state did? >> also, should the healthy and young among us go back to work, even if it means more infections? that's what some have suggested, from politicians to businessmen. we'll talk about what it would mean. but first, here's my take. when a crisis hits the united states, the country's general instinct is to rally around the flag, wish the best for its leaders. that's probably why president trump has seen his approval ratings rise even though he's had a delayed and fitful approach to the pandemic. but at some point we americans must look at the facts and recognize an uncomfortable reality. the united states is on track to have the worst outbreak of coronavirus among wealthy countries. largely because of the ineffectiveness of its government. this is the new face of american exceptionalism. the united states now has the most cases of covid-19 anywhere in the world, outstripping china and italy. the first line of defense against the disease is testing. on this key metric, the u.s. experience has been a fiasco. we started late using a faulty test, and never quite recovered. president trump's claim that anybody that wants a test can get a test has turned out to be a cruel hoax. access to tests remains much worse than in most advanced countries. his assertion that the united states tested more people than south korea is essentially nonsense because it doesn't take into account that south korea has one-sixth of america's population. per capita, south korea has done three times more testing than the united states as of saturday. italy, a country not known for the smooth workings of its government also tested three times as much per capita than the u.s. basic medical supplies are running low throughout the united states. in a survey of more than 200 mayors, 90% said they don't have enough protective equipment for health care workers like face masks. 85% don't have enough ventilators. that means many people could die simply because of a lack of supplies. how do we find ourselves in this situation? it's easy to blame donald trump and the president trump has been inept from the start. but there's a much larger story behind this fiasco. america is paying the price today for decades of de-funding government, politicizing independent agencies, fetishizing local control and demeaning and disparaging government workers and bureaucrats. this wasn't how it always was. america historically prized limited but effective government. alexander hamilton wrote a government ill-executed whatever it may be in theory must be in practice be a bad government. franklin delano roosevelt created the modern democracy which was lean and efficient. but in recent decades as the scope of government increased the bureaucracy was starved and made dysfunctional. in the 1970 0s, despite a u.s. population twice as large and a gdp seven times higher adjusting for inflation than the 1950s. federal agencies are understaffed but overburdened with mountains of regulations and politicized mandates and rules giving officials little power and discretion. the fda's couple ber zoom rucum rules and bureaucracy is one example among hundreds. paul light notes that under john f. kennedy, the cabinet departments had 17 layers of hierarchy. by the time donald trump took office there were a staggering 71 layers. both parties have contributed to the problem. making the federal government a caricature of bureaucratic inefficiency. then we have america's crazy quilt work of authority. they're proving a nightmare when tackling an epidemic that knows know borders where any locality with a weak response will allow the infection to keep spreading elsewhere. what happens on florida's beaches doesn't stay on florida's beaches. it's an easy cop out to say that america can't mirror china's dictatorship, of course not. but the governments that are handling this pandemic effectively include democracies like south korea, taiwan, germany, many of the best practices employed in places like singapore and hong kong are not tear ryrannical but smart. they all have governments that are well efficient and responsive. in today's world with problems that spill across borders at lightning speed, well executed government is what makes a country actually exceptional. for more go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this yeeweek. and let's get started. ♪ i just told you how singapore employed best practices against the coronavirus pandemic and has fared very well so far. only three people in singapore so far have been killed by the virus. the city state has a population of 6 million people. smaller than new york's. with that fatality rate, if singapore were the size of the united states that would mean fewer than 200 sddeaths in america. in fact, the u.s. has had over 2,000 deaths. if you look at this chart from earlier this week, you will see singapore has already flattened the curve. so what can we learn from singapore? joining me now exclusively is the prime minister of singapore, lee hsien loong. welcome, prime minister. >> good evening. >> tell us what you think singapore got right. many people look at the fact you got in very early. you developed a test the minute the sequences were published, you developed a nucleic acid test. do you think it was that? what do you think is the key to your success? >> i hesitate to talk about success because we are right in the midst of a battle which is intensifying. we've tried hard from the beginning to take this very seriously. we watched what was happening in wuhan in china. we prepared our people. in fact, we've been preparing for this since sars, which was 17 years ago. as the cases started to come in, we were able to identify them because we said, well, treatment for covid-19 will be free and testing. and we were able also to contact trace and find the contacts of the people who had come in and isolate the contacts. so that we slowed down the spread within the population. we tried very hard also to explain to the population what we are facing, what we need to do, and what are the steps which we need them to cooperate with us so our efforts can succeed, such as keeping safe distances from one another, such as watching their own personal hygiene, such as staying home if they're sick and not going to work and not socializing. and with great effort i think it has helped to keep the number of cases down. but i'm under no illusions that we have won. we are just going in and there's a long battle ahead. >> so, let me ask you about contact tracing, because that is one of the things you seem to have done particularly well. you used peoples phones the minute somebody was diagnosed and tried to figure out exactly where they had been. you now have an app which people can get to tell them if they're close to somebody else who might have tested positive. how difficult was it to do all this? >> we have not been using phone data. we've been interviewing people, asking them -- interviewing them, tracking down their contacts, interviewing their contacts, trying to piece a story together. it's traditional detective work. and patient work. and we hope to get a quick answer out within a couple hours, but, in fact, we pursue the cases for days to try to pin down who talked to whom and who might have given the virus to whom. we have an app now which we hope will be able to track who has come into contact with somebody else who also has the app and who might be sick. but it's really a work in progress, we don't know yet how well that will work. >> how do you respond to people who say singapore is able to do this because, you know, it has these controls. it is a paternalistic system. the government has more powers than in other places. >> we have not taken extraordinary powers. i think the key thing is people must understand that we are facing, and must support what we're doing and cooperate with us and have confidence in the government. we put a lot of effort into explaining to them what is happening, speaking to them and have done it a few times directly on television. so people know that we are level and we tell it straight. we are transparent. if there's bad news, we tell you. if there's things which need to be done, we also tell you. i think you have to main thain that trust because if people don't trust you, even if you have the right measures, it's going to be hard to get it implemented. >> you have talked about the economic situation to your people and you just came out with a second budget, even though you had planned in february for a relief budget. you have come out with a new budget which is five times larger. >> yes. >> you described in your speech, this is not going to be a v-shaped recovery, it's not going to be a u-shaped recovery, right now it just feels like it's going down. explain what you think the economic consequences here are? >> well, first of all, there's a district impact on certain sectors. aviation has died, for example. tourism is dead. all the travel industry which is associated with the hotels, they are in considerable difficulties. that is an impact which will not go away in a hurry. secondly, supply chains are getting disrupted because other countries are not operating at full steam. their economies are locked down. supplies are not coming in. our production is also affected and our exports are also affected. that's a broad-based impact on the rest of the economy. then you have got the self-employed, the gig economy, the people who depend on entertainment, who depend on normal socializing, who get jobs day by day. those jobs have all evaporated. i don't see that coming back until such time as people gain confidence that they have a hold on the virus, that we can resume normal socializing, normal traveling, normal human intercourse. and i think that's quite some time down the road. >> what does it mean, prime minister, to get a hold on the virus? because, you know, there's theories you have to develop le herd immunity which would mean infecting 40% of the population or so, or does it just have to wait for that vaccine or therapy? >> well, if you're going for herd immunity, you have to have a big proportion of the population infected. angela merkel, who speaks very carefully, talked about 70% of the german population possibly. we have to go that route all the way, i think it's either going to be very, very painful because of the huge spike and you have an uncontrolled outbreak as happened in some cities in northern italy or in china, or you have to flatten the curve and it takes a very, very long time. so you got to hope for an off-ramp to get off that path. the only visible way of getting the off-ramp is to have either a treatment or effective vaccine. that's some distance down the road but some very smart people are working very hard at it. i can only hope and pray they make progress soon. >> stay with me. i'll be back with the prime minister of singapore, prime minister lee, to talk about other things china. is it the victim, the accuser, the helper, the help? 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you sit in the middle of this situation in a sense with good relations with the united states and china. is there a danger here this virus -- one of the side effects of this virus would be a u.s./chinese real kind of cold war? >> it's a most unfortunate situation to be in. u.s./china relations have been complicated even before this, but if we're going to deal with this virus, you've got to get all the countries to be working together, in particular u.s. and china. under the best of circumstances there's going to be a very difficult challenge for mankind. but if the u.s. and the chinese are swapping insults and blaming one another for inventing the virus, letting it loose on the world, i don't think that is going to help us solve the problem sooner. >> it strikes me that with something like a pandemic it is so obvious it spills across borders, it's so obvious that it can only be handled if everyone is in some way cooperating, sharing information, sharing best practices. and typically the united states has taken the lead on organizing some of these kinds of global responses. the trump administration does not seem that interested. what happens in the -- with the absence of u.s. leadership? can you have -- can the world organize itself without some kind of agenda setting at least? >> the world has greatly benefited from american leadership in situations like this for decades. if america is in a different mode, we'll get by. i think other configurations will eventually work out. but it would be a loss. >> you would prefer to see american leadership on this issue? >> yes, of course. you have the resources, you have the science, you have the influence, you have the power and you have the track record of dealing with these problems convincingly and successfully and in the greater good of many countries, not just the u.s. it's a pity not to put those resources to work now, to deal with this very grave challenge to mankind. >> let me ask you about something you said in our previous segment. you said you have to keep flattening the curve until a vaccine or a therapy was found. so you're thinking about the flattening of the curve, not as something that you do for a month or two and then restart the economy, you think this is potentially a year, 18 months of flattening? >> i would -- that would be my guess. i'm not a professional epidemiologist or infectious disease specialist, but i don't see this problem going away in a couple of months. it's taken several months to more or less bring under control in china. it's taking off in europe now and it will take many months to bring under control. it's taking off in america now. and that's not going to disappear soon. and there are other huge parts of the world where we don't quite know what's happening, but i think that it will happen. it will happen in india. it will happen in southeast asia. it will happen in africa and latin america. so by the time it goes around the world and then finally runs its course. i think that's several years unless something happens to abort that process. >> prime minister, there are a lot of people in singapore who tell me they wish that you would stay on. you plan to leave office. you have elections at some point happening. could this crisis make you decide to postpone that decision to leave politics? >> i think we are -- this crisis keeps my hands full, let's focus on that for now. >> all right. prime minister lee hsien loong, pleasure to have you on, sir. >> thank you. next on "gps," president trump says he wants the country to get back to normal by easter. does the deadline make any sense for the economy or public health? we have some experts to discuss. e for back pain? before i take anything, i apply topical pain relievers first. salonpas lidocaine patch blocks pain receptors for effective, non-addictive relief. salonpas lidocaine. patch, roll-on or cream. hisamitsu. from anyone else. so why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms which most pills don't. get all-in-one allergy relief for 24 hours, with flonase. until i found out what itst it actually was.ed me.on't. dust mite droppings! eeeeeww! dead skin cells! gross! so now, i grab my swiffer sweeper and heavy-duty dusters. duster extends to three feet to get all that gross stuff gotcha! and for that nasty dust on my floors, my sweeper's on it. the textured cloths grab and hold dirt and hair no matter where dust bunnies hide. no more heebie jeebies. phew. glad i stopped cleaning and started swiffering. dimitri's on it. eating right... ...and getting those steps in? 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>> fareed, i want to thank you for your thoughtful commentary. i read your "washington post" piece. i thought it was great. your interview now with the prime minister of singapore was beautiful. his commentary was beautiful. but consider what he said. years in lockdown. the world -- the end of civilization as we know it effectively while we wait for a vaccine that we don't know when it's coming. i don't know whether this is two weeks, four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks. here's what i'm saying what we should be doing now, first of all the public deserves to know. my parents deserve to know there's a plan for a plan. the and it's data informed, we're collecting the data, who has this, who is likely to need hospitalization, who is likely to need an icu bed, and who is likely to have a mild version of this infection that they don't know they have it. all those questions can be answered with data. there's two radical positions, again, take your chances no matter your baseline, health status or lock everybody away indefinitely. what i'm saying is we can quickly learn in the span of weeks if we have the same massive risk differentials that we're seeing in south korea, that we're seeing in germany and even seeing in italy. and if that's the case, a large portion of the population returning to the world could achieve herd immunity at a low risk of severe infection or dying and we could double down on protecting people like my parents and people with prior health problems so we do a better job of sheltering them, providing them services, providing them information while they wait it out and then we avoid both extremes the prime minister talked about. we don't shut the world down for years which is calamitous, but we also don't achieve herd immunity at the cost of a high number of deaths because those at severe risk of dying are the very ones we shelter away, and the rest of white house can afford to get this because we are very likely to get over it -- by the way i think i have it and i'm awaiting my test results did-- we get back to the world early, achieve that herd immunity. i can't say how many weeks that is. nobody can. we've done such a poor job in this country of gathering the data, absolutely essential to answer that question. it's some amount of time. dr. fauci says the virus will tell us how long. i argue it's us doing the epidemiological work understanding the virus. some arbitrary timeline that was never anything i wrote about, and i think it's a huge mistake. >> don mcneil, what do you make of this? >> i'm glad dr. katz has backed off his original thinking a bit. i found that piece that he wrote in the times shocking from somebody who has an m.d. and some of the interviews he gave afterwards, because it essentially argued that we should trade lives for his father's 401(k), that we should let people out there so that we can achieve herd immunity. the whole concept of herd immunity is different when you have a novel virus. herd immunity in the old days was something the old had because they survived smallpox and they were able to keep the economy going and till the fields while the young recuperated. the ones who survived. right now we're in a situation where nobody has herd immunity. saying we all can go back to work on easter or a couple months from easter is asking to watch enormous numbers of people die. the original paper said we should just put away the vulnerable, make sure they're okay. perhaps dr. katz's parents have a nice house. he's a retired cardiologist. but many elderly people -- i checked the stats, there's 50 million people over the age of 65 in this country. we will we hide the obese who are likely to have diabetes, likely to have heart disease or lung disease? where do we hide people who have asthma? where do we hide pregnant women? where do we hide even teenagers? because the fda says vaping is a possible risk factor for this disease. before we went into lockdown, if you read the epidemiological models, the real ones, we were on track to lose between 500,000 and 10 million people. that's not something i want to sacrifice in order to bring the economy back in a big hurry. we have to think of ourselves in a situation now where we will not be able to think about our 401(k)s or take retirement at the time we wanted to. we have to think about getting enough calories, perhaps for the next year, until a vaccine is here. if a treatment works and the clinical trials are going on now, that's fantastic. even if chloroquine works or one of the other drugs, we'll need 330 million pills per day to use as a treatment. most of those pills are made in india. india is having an outbreak now we'll have the worst outbreak in the world until india surpasses them. quite soon we'll surpass everybody else in this because we're the third biggest country in the world. it was an extremely dangerous way of thinking. i wish dr. katz would take that paper back and apologize for it. i think it provided a scientific underpinning for donald trump to say things like the cure is worse than the disease. the i know what it feels like to provide the scientific underpinning for donald trump because one of my articles did that. i wrote the one that said on february 28th that donald trump did the right thing by closing the border to china. and closing the border to china did, even according to the w.h.o., save us two or three weeks, but it's nine weeks since then and we squandered the time we bought. it was as if a man in a high-crime neighborhood went out and put a beware of the dog sign on the lawn to scare off the criminals, then went back inside, didn't buy a dog, didn't buy a lock or put bars on the house. now we're overrun. i'm afraid we're facing a whole series of wuhans in new york, seattle, new orleans, detroit. we'll have to suffer through what china suffered through. i think that's disastrous. >> all right. of course i will ask dr. cat kao respond, when we come back, i'll ask rana to talk about the xh g economics. is ben bernanke right when he said this is like a snowstorm of long-term consequences when we come back. hey america, i've got something to say. completing your 2020 census could mean smoother roads. or more emergency rooms. or more representation in our government. the census counts us all. and an accurate count helps inform where billions go every year. so, don't miss your chance to be counted. we're kind of depending on you here. complete the census, online, by phone, or by mail. shape your future. start here at 2020census.gov. we are back with david katz, donald mcneil and rana foroohar. rana, let me bring you into the conversation. we know what has happened to the economy. it's paralyzed, freezed up in a way that i don't think there's a historical parallel. we have the stimulus package, larger than ever, 10% of gdp. what is the likely economic future for the next few months? >> it's going to be bleak. there's no question. you know, that would be true whether we were all in quarantine for two weeks or two months. you know, we have just seen record unemployment numbers. we've seen market falls, the parallel -- something from the great crash of the 1920s, the aftermath of that. one important thing for people to recognize, even when we are in the clear with the virus, we still have a lot of underlying problems in the economy. we have a massive debt level, a record corporate debt level out there. a lot of us that follow the economy, we're expecting there to be some kind of major correction, if not a crash, with or without the coronavirus. but what we're seeing now is a perfect storm of main street being hit, so many people being out of work, and wall street being hit at the same time. those two things have a snowball effect that will be damaging for months if not years. >> rana, do you think that means that, you know, the stock market, which is still down roughly 30%, compared to '08/'09 when it fell 55%, 2000 when it fell 70%, you think markets have not grappled with how serious this is. >> i don't think so. again, i see this more akin to the period of 1929 and the aftermath where you have the unwinding of a huge debt bubble. yes, we have a pandemic a singular event and a terrible one but we also have pressures in the system that have been building up and billing up for at least ten years if not more. a lot of things that we have not fixed since the great financial crisis that are now coming home to roost at a time when main street is triplecrippled. i think we'll be in a period of market correction and sluggish growth for, i think, years to come. >> and people think the u.s. can get out of this because it has the reserve currency of the world and it can print dollars at will. what do you say to that? >> well, it's interesting. chinese and russians are buying gold. a lot of foreigners selling u.s. t bills. it's true that the dollars is in the reserve and as you often said you can't replace something with nothing. what i would say is we're headed to a world that will be more local, more regional, i don't think globalization will reset exactly like it was in the 1990s, and i think that the dollar may be in for a fall. if you think about this $2 trillion stimulus package, this may be one of many to come, the fed is printing money right now. that ultimately could degrade the dollar and dollar assets. that's something i'm concerned about. >> fascinating. dr. katz, let me give you a chance to respond. and i think the core issue that don mcneil says, this is an unknown virus. the danger of taking a chance and saying let the general population achieve herd immunity is very high because we don't know a lot about it and what if that herd immunity is achieved with a 2% death rate, which would be hundreds of thousands of americans? >> it looks to be the opposite, fareed. in other words, the virus looks like it's very widespread in the u.s. and a lot of people have already had it and never knew. we need to find out. i never suggested doing anything that wasn't data driven. also, to be clear, i can't be personally responsible for a president who deals with nuanced public health policy in tweets with all the refinement of farts. this is a nuanced discussion, and the goal here is total harmonization. i never talked about trading lives for dollars. i'm a humanist, not an economist. i love my parents, i'm a public health physician. we're going to lose lives to the virus and we will lose lives as we erode the social determinants of health, people lose their jobs, desperation, depression, addiction, suicide. there's been a spike in domestic violence already. there's been a rush to buy guns already. people are not xwrusing guns to shoot the coronavirus, so what are they buying those guns for? what i've been arguing is we should gather the data, this was the argument from the start, we should be gathering the data so we can risk stratify. it's not just old people, people with heart disease, it may be pregnant women, even if it's 50 million people we can do a better job sheltering 50 million people than we can sheltering 330 million people. >> i got to -- i got to let you go, dr. katz. we will have all of you on again. this thing is not going away. i really appreciate this. a serious, substantive conversation. thank you. >> thank you. next on "gps," some good news. really. when it comes to autism, finding the right words can be tough. finding understanding doesn't have to be. together, we can create a kinder, more inclusive world for the millions of people on the autism spectrum. go to autismspeaks.org introducing the future of fitness. it's every class you can imagine. live... welcome back to the mirror. you've got this, john. .and on demand. it's boxing, cardio, yoga, and more. it's an interactive, goal crushing, whole family, whole body fitness machine. it's so cool! the future of fitness is at home. the mirror. with hepatitis c... ...i felt i couldn't be at my... ...best for my family. in only 8 weeks with mavyret... ...i was cured. i faced reminders of my hep c every day. i worried about my hep c. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret... ...i was cured. mavyret is the only 8-week cure for all types of hep c. before starting mavyret your doctor will test... ...if you've had hepatitis b which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you've had hepatitis b, a liver or kidney transplant,... ...other liver problems, hiv-1, or other medical conditions,... ...and all medicines you take. don't take mavyret with atazanavir... ...or rifampin, or if you've had certain liver problems. if you've had or have serious liver problems other than hep c, there's a rare chance they may worsen. signs of serious liver problems may include yellowing of the skin, abdominal pain or swelling, confusion, and unexplained bleeding or bruising. tell your doctor if you develop symptoms of liver disease. common side effects include headache and tiredness. with hep c behind me, i feel free... ...fearless... ...because i am cured. talk to your doctor about mavyret. tv sports announcer: yeah, that's my man there. tv sports announcer: time out. let's go to a commercial. nooooooo! not another commercial! when you bundle your home, auto and life insurance with allstate you could save 25%. in fact, the more you bundle the more you can save. put the other game on if it's important to you allstate can protect it. ...home auto and life insurance you could save 25%. if it's important to you allstate can protect it. what? bundle and save with allstate. click or call for a quote today. for all of you staying at home, which means most of you, if you need some good book recommendations, we've put up three years worth of my books of the week, they're available at cnn.com/fareed. this week, as you sit at home, if you're pining for travel, you can experience it vicariously and hilariously in "less" a novel by andrew sean greer. it's a funny sweet novel that won the pulitzer prize. it's a story of a gay man who travels around the world to get away from a love. a fun read. i'm rereading john steinbeck's "east of eden." following times of crisis, terror attacks, hurricanes, mass shootings, our spirits have historically been lifted by inspiring stories of people coming together. this time, though, the crisis itself forced us all apart. there can be no spontaneous gatherings, no concerts no vigils uniting people in their grief. even though we can't physically come together, it doesn't mean the world is devoid of displays of humanity and camaraderie. ♪ there were the quarantined italians, serenading each other across balconies and singing their national anthem along with the radio. high atop rio de janeiro, crist the redeemer was illuminated with flags of countries affected by the virus along with messages of prayer. in canada, france, uk and other places, residents cheered to show gratitude for health care workers at an appointed hour every day. ♪ spanish police officers serenaded house-bound residents. fitness instructors led group balcony workouts from neighboring rooftops. tens of thousands responded to a call for reserve medical staffing in new york city alone. food and funds were donated generously. ♪ musicians and opera singers posted performances for free on the internet. countries came to each other's aid. china and russia, for example, sent medical equipment and expertise to embattled italy. sometimes it was companies, not individuals or countries showing solidarity. distilleries made hand sanitizer. fashion designers offered is produce face masks. companies like spacex and bloom energy pivoted from manufacturing rocket ships and fuel cells to making and refurbishing ventilators. a world of online courses has ramped up to deal with the rising traffic of all those kids at home. i asked the twitterverse for examples during these trying times. some of you sending the stories we just heard. please continue to tweet at fareed zakaria and continues on facebook with examples of the light of humanity shining through the darkness. these acts of kindness small and large remind us of who we are and the world we want to build when this is all over. thanks so much to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. v and , it's got all my favorite shows right there. i wish my trading platform worked like that. well have you tried thinkorswim? 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