He has a pattern. What the pattern we have from donald trump is a lot of times hell lie about something that happens and hell do what he wants to do. All of this im convinced symone ive convinced her. I think you made a lot of progress with symone. All that matters, what will this mean if the president does meet with Special Counsel and asked about this . If he gives answers hes been giving to the media and others, it may not go well. Our coverage continues right now, cnn tonight with don lemon. This is cnn Breaking News. It is bombshell Breaking News on the Russia Investigation, really. This is cnn tonight. Im don lemon. This is hugely significant. The president , President Trump ordered Robert Mueller, the Special Counsel heading up the Russia Investigation fired this past june. And the only thing that stopped him was when his own White House Counsel Don Mcgahn threatened to quit rather than carry out the order. This story was first reported by
the rosenstein firing, the rosenstein the president has not trusted for quite some time, really, if ever. Again, that was another reason he kept being discussed. The president kept saying to people that rosenstein comes from baltimore, which is not true. And the idea that he is trying to suggest that he is a democrat. But rosenstein has been in the president s craw future some time. And the idea is if you get rid of rosenstein, then you would have someone else become the Attorney General. In this case, it was the number three, rachel brand, and perhaps she would be a better overseer of the Special Counsel. Maggie haberman, tremendous reporting. Thank you very much. We appreciate you joining us on cnn. Thank you. Again, this is our Breaking News tonight. Hugely significant. President trump ordered Robert Mueller, the Special Counsel heading up the Russia Investigation, fired this past june. And the only thing that stopped
him was when the White House Counsel Don Mcgahn threatened to quit rather than carry out the order. Again, the story supported by the New York Times has been confirmed down now by two other News Organizations. Lets bring in cnn senior political analyst mark preston, cnn political analyst Carl Bernstein and White House Reporter kaitlan collins. Also john dean, who was of course white House Counsel, nixons white House Counsel and cnn legal analyst laura coates joins us as well. Man, what a story we have here. Im going get to all of you. But mark, i want to get to you first. Let me read this. This is from maggies reporting. It says the west wing confrontation is the first time mr. Trump is known to have tried to fire the Special Counsel. Mr. Mueller learned about the episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and former senior white house officials in his inquiry into whether the president obstructed justice. So, mark, whats your reaction to this breaking story . You know, unfortunately, don, im not surprised by it at all. And i dont think anybody who is watching tonight should be surprised by it at all. He has been very adamant about his opposition to this
investigation, which leads you to wonder why has he been so fervently against it . At the same time, there is a track record. He fired james comey because he wasnt considered loyal enough to him. He wanted Jeff Sessions to leave his job as the Attorney General because he would recuse himself from overseeing the Mueller Investigation now. We know that Jeff Sessions had offered his resignation, and it wasnt accepted. This is another very big red flag that i think those people out there that are watching that think this has just been going down rabbit holes and that this is a partisan attack or criticism of donald trump that. They need to stop and start looking at the evidence right now. Of course, if youre only paying attention to conservative media, you might not believe that you might not even get the news on conservative media. Laura, i have to ask you this. The president didnt ultimately go through with it, okay. Can this be used as evidence against trump for obstruction . Yes, obstruction is a crime
of endeavoring. You can endeavor to actually obstruct justice, and that can be enough to move the needle towards obstruction, even if you did not accomplish that crime. And all the things youre talking about marks a discussion about a pattern. These are all patterns of consciousness of guilt. These are all contextual clues telling you can infer what his intent would be, and he is endeavored to not only do these things, but in one case, if his own statements to lester holt are to believed, he actually accomplished one form of obstruction by trying to fire and actually firing james comey because of his handling and continuation of a Russia Investigation that circled around him and his inner circle. John dean, i wanted you to hear some of the reporting first before i got to you. What do you make of all this . Im sure this is reminiscent of when you served as Special Counsel. Well, in a way, it is. Laura is right in saying that under the statutory law, this is clearly an endeavor. What we have, though, is another
set of laws called the law of impeachment. Whatever that is what the majority of the House Of Representatives says it is. And whether they decide it is an impeachable offense, of course, is a majority vote. But they all draw from statutes and make those the relevant standard. But i think were just piecing another piece in this big puzzle as to what is intent. And he is making very clear his intent was to obstruct. If this had taken place, john, would this have been on par with the Saturday Night Massacre Under Nixon . Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that don mcgahn threatened to resign because he had no choice. He realized he was engaging and possibly joining a criminal conspiracy to remove or to obstruct justice. And thats what a lawyer has to do in a situation like that is either threaten to resign or quietly resign. In some jurisdictions, they actually have to make a noisy withdrawal when they do it. Yeah. You were shaking your head in agreement when you said this is another piece in the puzzle, and a big piece. It is. Because we see the pattern above all things. Donald trump through his first year in office has done Everything Possible to undermine, obstruct, demean, and halt this legitimate investigation into his campaign, the conduct of people in his family. It doesnt mean theyre guilty. He doesnt want this investigation to go forward at all costs. He now has engaged the Republican Party, which is staking its future to some extent in trying to undermine the investigation. What weve seen in the last two weeks from republicans trying to undermine muellers version is quite extraordinary thinking has to speak to deeper concerns the president might have to this investigation, carl, and where it might lead, no . Well, of course hes concerned. Look, i cant be in Donald Trumps head. Thats a very dangerous place to be. But i think its obvious, and he hates where this investigation is going. He tells his friends, oh, there is nothing there. That this is a witchhunt. They just want to get into my finances. But this is about his conduct, about his conduct in the campaign, about his conduct in the transition, about his conduct in possible obstruction as president of the United States. And it is deadly serious. And the people around him understand he is in legal danger. He may or may not understand he is in legal danger. But thats what were dealing with here. But there is an extraordinary second element of that. And that is what we are seeing once again with the white House Counsel restraining the president of the United States from following his instincts. What is going on in the white house now is trying to contain a president whose basic instincts
are out of control very often, and to do things that are neither reputable, often not legal, and certainly not in keeping with the president ial oath to defend the office in a responsible way. With the tradition of president s who came before him. What is the white house saying, if anything tonight . The only statement they put out is from ty cobb, a white house lawyer saying they respectfully decline to comment on this out of respect for the Special Counsels investigation and its process, which is a very interesting comment especially in light we just saw Anthony Scaramucci talk with our colleague chris cuomo saying its irrelevant president wanted don mcgahn to fire because thats not how it works. Its interesting if you look at what has happened over the last 36 hours. Because the white house has put out this information to reporters saying 20 people from the white house has spoken with Robert Mueller. Weve given them all these documents. We fully cooperated. Theyre putting on this front that theyre fully cooperating with the Special Counsels office. But as maggie, who broke the story just pointed out, the white house has spent the last seven months lying to not only reporters, but the American People because they have said that the president did not consider firing him. He did not threaten to fire him. It was not on his mind at all. From sean spicer to Sarah Sanders to kellyanne conway, to the president himself, these people have lied to the American People saying to the president was not considering firing the Special Counsel when in fact he was. Mark, kaitlan, laura, john thank you very much. Carl bernstein, john dean, i want you to stay with me. When we come back, President Trump tried to fire special Counsel Robert Mueller last june, and the only threat by his own white House Counsel to quit stopped him. Did the president learn nothing from the firestorm over firing james comey . President trump called for special Counsel Robert Mueller to be fired in june. But backed down when white house attorney don mcgahn threatened to resign rather than carry out that directive. Back with me Carl Bernstein and john dean. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us here and continuing to join us here on the program. John, there have been multiple times since june that the president has denied he has considered Firing Mueller. Watch this. Mr. President , youve sought or thought about, considered leading to the dismissal of Special Counsel. Is there anything bob mueller could do to send you in that direction . I havent given it any thought. Ive been reading about it from you people saying oh, im going dismiss him. No im not dismissing anybody. I want them to get on with the task. But i also want the senate and the house to come out with their findings. A quick followup on an earlier question to sarah. You discussed the Special Counsel and the investigation currently. Are you considering firing Robert Mueller . No, not at all. Are you considering Firing Mueller . No, im not. So, john, his staff and his attorneys also denied it at
least five other times. Yet we know now thats not true. It is not true. And this all will be used or could be used against him at some point. Its going to come up when he is questioned by mueller, asking him how could he make a Public Statement that is 180 degrees from the truth when he clearly has evidence that the exact opposite happened. His staff is complicit as well. Whether this is sufficient to join a conspiracy to obstruct is not clear, but its certainly ooh willingness to play along. We need more evidence to see if they actually agreed to conspire. But this is serious stuff, don. And its a remarkable breaking story because it does show and complete the pattern that weve been seeing. Yeah. Carl, ive got to ask you, and i asked in the tease before the break, did he learn nothing . Did he learn nothing from the blowback from firing james comey . Has he learned anything over the past year . Well, actually, hes been very successful in his own terms, which is to say he acts as if nothing sticks to him. And in fact, very little has. And he, if you talk to the people around him, they will tell you, this is his operating presumption. That if he can get his base riled up about a witchhunt, that is more important than the lying we just saw, more important than Firing Mueller or giving pardons. He believes on some level im told he can get away with just about anything. And in fact, he has in many regards. And now he has for the last two weeks the republicans on capitol hill tethered to him, tooting a line that is so much in his defense at a moment when they ought to be saying the president of the United States is not above the law. This investigation must go forward. We must find out what happened here. And instead, mcconnell, ryan, have done nothing to say to their members let our position be we want this investigation to be completed. We support it. Lets find out what happened and then we can move on. Cnn has now confirmed the president ordered the firing of special Counsel Robert Mueller in june. The directive was not followed through. Has he realized, john, and maybe people in the white house, maybe they havent realized because theyve never worked there before. Many have never held positions in washington that very little remains secret in the white house. You know that. Thats very true. While they can stay secret for a while, inevitably, they slip out. Particularly that was evident going in with this presidency, that he was going to have great trouble with leaks. And it is borne out. One of my earliest tweets about the presidency is how porous it was going to be just watching the campaign. So hes got to assume everything
he does is basically going to be reported at some stage. And he ought to be acting in a way it will not be any problem to be reported. One thing i can say for him, he speaks his mind, which if he was doing this Behind Closed Doors as nixon did, and then it came out, it would be even more devastating. Its pretty devastating coming out the way it is. But at least its not Behind Closed Doors. Does trump know does he have to admit to mueller that he tried to fire him when he interviews him in a facetoface, john . Well, he is likely to be caught in a lie if he doesnt. Mcgahn obviously got the instruction, understood it, realized the implications of it, the criminal implications of it. The conspiratorial. Its perjury, right, if he lies . Well, it depends whether he is under oath. Of course he said he would like to be under oath. But its more likely hell just be interviewed by mueller with
other aids and other maybe some fbi agents present as well. And there his threat is under 18 usc 1001, which is the false statement statute. You cannot fake false statements to federal official, especially an investigative setting like this. So, yes, he has to tell the truth. Carl, i want to read more. This is from the times. This is the president s argument for why mueller should go, okay, why he should be fired. First he claimed that a dispute years ago over fees at Trump National golf course in sterling, virginia, had prompted mr. Mueller, the fbi director at the time, to resign his membership. The president also said mr. Mueller could not be impartial because he had most recently worked for law firm that previously represented the president s soninlaw, jared. Finally, the president said mr. Mueller had been interviewed to return as fbi director the day before he was appointed Special Counsel in may. Are those legitimate reasons, any of those . No. Theyre not only not legitimate reasons, theyre obviously the product of some, quote, Opposition Research to find out everything they could about mule mueller that might be some kind of potential conflict of interest. None of them seriously are. What all of this is about is only his trumps desire to make this investigation go away. Thats what he has been doing for a year, to discredit in everywhere possible, to make sure somehow that his family is not brought into this any further. And now the tentacles of this investigation are around members of his own family. Those closest to him in his business organization, in this campaign organization. It doesnt mean that theyre going to b