News and a wealthy republican donor to concoct a fake news story about a murdered dnc staffer. His family outraged. Now, tonight, were going to put that donors side of the story to the test. But first up is this latest twisting of the truth on russia. The white house has been denying for weeks that the president had anything to do with that misleading statement about his son don juniors 2016 meeting with a russian attorney. The statement claiming the meeting was primarily about adoption of russian children. The president s own attorney was asked specifically about that by me on new day. Heres what he said. So he didnt have anything to do with the statement that don junior put out that was being worked on with his team . No, the statement that don junior put out, are you talking about yesterdays, chris . The one over the weekend. That was written that was written, no, that was written by doonld trump junior im sure in consultation with his lawyer. Then came the Washington Post reporting that the president didnt have nothing to do with it. He had everything to do with it. Actually dictating language confronted with this revelation, press secretary sara sanders admitted the president did have a hand in that statement after all. Take a listen. Like the statement that don junior issued is true, theres no inaccuracy in the statement. The president weighed in as any father would based on the limited information that he had. Different story. What are the implications . Joiningno join us now robert ray and cn contributor john dean, former Nixon White House counsel and the author of conservatives without conscience. Counselor dean, lets start with you. What do you believe the implications of this changing story is it by the white house on a narrative level and any legal implications to the president s potential involvement . Well, politically it, puts it to his lawyer very quickly and makes a liar out of his lawyer. On the broader scale, i looked at the lift of impeachments and i found na false statements have always played a role, while they may not be criminal acts in themself, indeed they do show a state of mind and every impeachment proceeding in modern times from nixon through clinton we see them played out. All right. So lets, robert, you play the role of the proverbial bucket of cold water on this. Do you think these woes qualify as false statements for the purpose of legal analysis . Not in a criminal context. First of all, false statements to the media dont give rise to a criminal proceeding, only to statements made to government officials. Its a pr problem. Its political problem. As i think your network has shown with jonathan turley, im in agreement with the general notion that lets not try to turn every single disclosure event into its an impeachable event or a possible criminal case. Whether he weighed in or dictated it, i mean the problem is for the white house is a credibility issue. But it doesnt really rise to the level of a criminal offense. Its not obstruction of justice and it involves a family member, you know, to boot. Seriously, hes trying to, you know, orchestrate or impacting what donald trump jr. Would testify to. Thats clearly not what his intent was. He was trying to manage a news story. We dont know what his intentions were till he tells us what they were. Just because its not illegal doesnt mean its not wrong. Absolutely. This new standard for what is acceptable conduct coming out of the white house seems to be felonious activity. If its not a felony, leave the man alone. John dean, back to you, the suggestion that okay, on its face, this is no crime. However, it may wind up playing into what the special counsel looks at in terms of a pattern of behavior, how so . Exactly. Well, you know it, the parallel that struck me immediately was nixons concern for his friend and attorney general john mitchell. How he got himself involved in the watergate coverup not because he was covering up his own actions but because he was reaching out and showing empathy for the man he thought helped put him in the presidency. Its not dissimilar to try to reach out and help your son in a situation like this. They are all part of a pattern that resulted from mr. Nixon in obstruction of justice being the strongest charge in the impeachment it bill against him. Where it will end up in the greater picture with trump, we dont know the. But its going to be a factor. Why would it be a factor . To rays point, the idea that just because something that could be i guess misfeasance, doing something the wrong thing, not necessarily malfeasance in the law which would put you into the criminal territory. Why would this ever wind up putting you on the road to impeachment what is the theory that would get you there . It wouldnt put you on the road. It would be a weigh station along the road. It shows state of mind. Here he clearly made a deliberate misstatement of the facts. Hes trying to cover up. In fact, the remarkable thing is, everything that this white house has done since theyve assumed office and it actually predates that, has been to show a coverup mode. If they wanted to solve this, they could. There are many ways you could end this. They dont seem to have this disposition. Rather they keep reaffirming and taking steps to show coverup. We certainly have a problem with consistency of information, transparency and truth coming out of the white house. That is probably an easier debate to have. But tonight were looking at something more specific. Lets pull Something Else from this Washington Post reporting. It said because trump believes he is innocent, some advisers explain he therefore does not think hes at any legal risk for a coverup. In his mind, they said, there is nothing to conceal. This rings true to me in terms of what ive heard of those. Sure, but its dangerous and if i can put on my defense lawyer hat for a moment, thats the one place where a defense lawyer has got to the protect the client. Why . If i think i did nothing wrong. You can get yourself into a whole lot of trouble being well meaning. Every persons natural reaction faced with a criminal investigation is to, i didnt do anything wrong. Therefore, i have nothing to worry about. Therefore, i dont need to act any differently than i otherwise would act. The problem with this and its very difficult to apply to family members but cross talk between someone who is subject of a criminal investigation and witnesses in that investigation, thats a dangerous place to be in. And its dangerous because it can be misconstrued as an intent what john dean was mentioning as indicative of an intent to try to orchestrate or move the course of the investigation. Its the last place you want to be but well meaning and well intentioned people who dont think they did anything wrong are the ones that need counsel to advise them how difficult that can be and how their actions can be misconstrued. One outlier here is it jay sekulow, the attorney who mocked the suggestion that the president had anything to do with this. He bad mouthed the New York Times reporting. What do you think the chance is that the president could have had as hev a hand in that initial statement as the reporting suggests and now even the white house suggests more mildly and jay sekulow knew nothing about it. Its possible. We dont know how much he is conferring with his lawyers. Jay was not on the airplane at that time. So the he might have been speaking out of instinct and just his protective nature of his client. He might well have also known, but i think if he did, he would fes up. Right now, im going to work on the assumption he didnt know. And we have another open question, which is what did the president know . We know Jared Kushners lawyers had discovered these emails that show the true motivations behind this meeting. Were those in the mix while drafting that statement . Had the president heard anything about those . Those are remaining and outstanding questions that matter on a number of levels. Mr. Ray, mr. Dean, you make us better every time youre on. Thank you. Appreciate the help. When we come back, fox news is accused of the worst kind of fake news. Concocting a story to use the death of a dnc staffer to distract are from the russian investigation. A lawsuit just file this had morning claims the white house was involved and so was the president. Its a claim the white house denies and we have a life exclusive interview with the republican donor at the center of the suit. Next. We recently had a heart attack. But we are not victims. We are survivors. We are survivors. We are survivors. And now we take brilinta. For people whove been hospitalized for a heart attack. We take brilinta with a baby aspirin. No more than one hundred milligrams. As it affects how well brilinta works. Brilinta helps keep platelets from sticking together and forming a clot. In a Clinical Study brilinta worked better than plavix®. Brilinta reduced the chance of another heart attack. Or dying from one. Dont stop taking brilinta without talking to your doctor,. Since stopping it too soon increases your risk of clots in your stent,. Heart attack, stroke, and even death. Brilinta may cause bruising or bleeding more easily,. Or serious, sometimes fatal bleeding. Dont take brilinta if you have bleeding, like stomach ulcers,. 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The Network Published a story alleging that rich gave wiki leaks a trove of dnc emails and suggested his death was retribution for his supposed leak. The private investigator enlisted to develop the story now claims it was all designed to discredit u. S. Intelligence which, of course determined that russia had hacked the dnc. The story was later retracked from the fox news website, but the story was also far from over. Lets get more now from cnns randi kaye. Reporter when Democratic National Committee Staffer seth rich was killed, a conspiracy was born, caught up in it, this man. I do believe i was used as a pawn in this entire thing. Reporter his name is rod wheeler. Hes a former dc homicide detective and fox news contributor. And now hes filed a lawsuit against fox news. Wheeler claims he was used to help fabricate a story connecting the murder of seth rich to the wikileaks release of thousands of emails from the Democratic National committee. The idea being that rich was murdered by some sort of dnc operative in retaliation for the leaks. All of this despite the fact that police say richs murder was the result of a botched burglary and that this is key, authorities had already determined that russians hacked the dnc emails and gab them to wiki leaks. What was the goal . I think their goal, based on the emails and the voice mail messages that i got from ed butowsky was to debunk this russian hacking narrative. Reporter ed butowsky is a gop supporter and fox commentator. The alleged goal to detract from the russia investigation was not only pushed by butowsky but according to the lawsuit, it was done in coordination with the trump white house. With butowsky even arranging wheeler to meet with then press secretary sean spicer. Spicer has acknowledged meeting them but said he was unaware of any contact involving the president. Still, just two days before the article was published on foxs website, butowsky left this voice mail for wheeler. Hey, rod, its ed. So a couple minutes ago i got a note that we have the full attention of the white house on this. And tomorrow, lets close this deal. Reporter hours later this text from ed butowsky to wheeler not to add any more pressure, but the president just read the article. He wants the article out immediately. And according to the lawsuit, ed butowsky sent an email to fox news producers and anchors encouraging them to push the narrative that russia wasnt behind the hack. It seemed to take hold. This issue is so big now, that the entire russia collusion narrative is hanging by a thread. Reporter according to the lawsuit, butowsky had also texted wheeler before the article was published saying, the narrative in the interviews you might use is that your and malias work prove that the russians didnt hack into the dnc and steal the emails and impact our election. I thought it was horrible because what did that have to do with the murder of this guy that i was investigating . Reporter wheeler insists the fox reporter attributed fake quotes to him, one even suggesting had he information that there had been an email exchange between seth rich and wikileaks. He called butowsky to find out why. One day, youre going to win an award for having said those things that you didnt say. Lets tell the truth here. Youre going to be begging to own those words. Reporter in that conversation, was he basically acknowledging to you that yes, its true. You didnt say these things but they sound good and were going to use them . Thats exactly what he was saying. He knew it and so did Malia Zimmerman. They knew i never said these things. I challenged them immediately. Reporter fox retracted 9 bogus story a week after it was published. Fox news told cnn today that the accusations that fox helped to detract from coverage of russian collusion is completely erroneous and that it has no evidence that rod wheeler was misquoted. Ed butowsky told cnn it was all just a joke. And today White House Press secretary sara sanders pushed back on allegations an the white house played a role in this scheme. The president had no knowledge of the story and its completely untrue he or the white house involvement in the story. Reporter randy kay, cnn, new york. Joining us now in a live exclusive is ed but the 2000 ski the man named in that lawsuit. Sir, thank you for joining us. Thanks for giving me an opportunity. That setup, i wish i was taking notes. Id love to go through each one of those and prove what nonsense that is. Please fire away, chris. Let me help you do that right now. Theres a lot of spin out there. Lets try to create a record of fact going in order of what matters most here. The suggestion that the president was aware of the story, he may have seen it in advance, that he had a profound interest in its advancement, what is your response . Not not true. You have to understand, rod wheeler is dead broke. Rod wheeler and i can send these Text Messages and you can accepted them out to everybody had been asking me to get him a job or help, find a way to get him into the trump administration, not the administration but a job there. I probably have five Text Messages from rod saying that. Okay . And the part that i heard a second ago i think is really important. The voice mail that i left for him about the full attention of the white house, that had to do with joey day la camera, the dc detective and the dc detective wanted to come out and talk because he has a lot of information, and rod. Why would a dc why would a dc detective equal the white house in your voice mail . Well, thats what im trying to explain to you. But help us understand that part. How does a dc detective get coded as houwhite house . What does he have to do with the white house. Thats what im trying to say. He wanted whistleblower status according to rod wheeler because he had a lot of stuff to expose and rod wheeler had been talking to him. Matter of fact, rod wheelers notes with joey day la camera is on a website called debunking rod wheelers claims. Com. Its all listed there. Rod wheeler was trying to help him because he was in a lot of trouble to get whistleblower status. What does that have to do with saying that the white house is interested . Why wouldnt you say day la camera. Why did you say white house . What i said was rod wheeler asked me to see what we could do to see if i could help this guy. I made some calls. They never an talked to anybody at the white house. Ive never talked to President Trump in my life. President trump or the white house has anything to do with any of this. As you dissect this, im going to give you the honest answer. All of the stuff is little nupds. Thats why im happy to be here to answer these. The problem is theyre your words. The text message not to add any more pressure but the president just read the article. He wants it out immediately. Its now all up to you. Dont feel the from esh. You know what . See, you have to understand, again we take things out of context. You know how that, would sometimes. Rod wheeler had been asking me for a long time, ed, when i get this case settled, the rez is going to hire me. He was always doing this and saying this to me. So this was tongue in cheek talking just texting. It wasnt serious because rod wheeler was always looking for a job because he has no money and by the way this lawsuit is all about rod wheeler trying to get money because he messed up and well explain that later. But ed, help me understand this. When you say the white house in the votes mail it, you say you meant this dc cop. When you say the president just read the article, that was a joke thats funny how . Where is the punch line in na joke. It wasnt a joke that was funny how. Rod wheeler had been you know, talking to me all the time about how much he wanted to get a job. He said get me on the trump team. Please get me with sessions. Youve written Text Messages. Nowadays im not going to write any Text Messages. It was two guys me basically finding a way to chat with him about stuff hes been talking to me about. The other one with day la camera, let me finish, please, not a joke at all. Joey day la camera has a lot of information and he wanted to come forward. I told rod ill see what i can do to find out about whistleblower status. Of should go talk to joey and ask him questions. Well, right, but we have to ask you questions also because what youre. Im answering them. You may not like my answer. Its not like or dislike. Its about testing them. Go for it. So the idea of what you said in the voice mail is code for something thats completely different is a curious situation as it the text as is you being on tape talking to wheeler acknowledging that you knew that wheeler had been quoted in ways that were inaccurate. How do you explain that. Thats not true either. Let me explain that one. Rod wheeler called me up and said, ed, Malia Zimmerman misquoted me. I said i dont understand because you theres emails back and forth that you not only approved the quotes but you added to it. Matter of fact, at that website that i mentioned rod wheelers claims. Com or dee dee bunking rod wheelers claims. Com, you hear his voice saying the exact quotes he said he didnt say. What rod wheeler did is he called me up. Obviously this was all concocted by wheeler. He said malia said that i set eyes on the emails. I said rod, you never set eyes on the an emails. I know that, you know that. If you set eyes on the emails, you would have told me. You never told me. If Malia Zimmerman who is a wonderful reporter, if she misquoted you, then you know what . Then that needs to be taken back. I said rod, show me where that quote exists. By the way, chris, ill ask anybody, show me where the quote exists where it says rod wheeler set eyes on the emails. Ive never seen thats what i was responding to. So when you were saying youre going to win an award for those things that you didnt say, what did you we were laughing because basically i said how crazy this world is because rod, youre telling me that you said that you that Malia Zimmerman wrote that you said exactly what i just said a second ago that you set eyes on it. Id said, rod you know that didnt happen. We were laughing about what a crazy word this is because somehow you know, youre going to win an award for having said something you didnt say. The good news is theres this is great devices in litigation called discovery. Hopefully all of this will come out because weve only seen the substantiation of his part. Were taking you at your word right now. Well have to see if theres backup. Let me ask you if this existed. Ill send you anything. You should send. Anytime. Send all of the proof of everything that youre suggesting right now. I cant believe its not out already. Im going to come up there will tomorrow and hand it to you, all right . The im easy to find. Let me ask you something about this. Did this happen . Did the sean spicer meeting happen or is wheeler making that up . Yeah, great question. So ive shown sean. I was a surrogate for the rnc, and not really that will used that often, by the way. But i was a surrogate. I got to know sean a little bit. And theres a recording of a man named cy hersh that you need to see. Seymour hersh. Seymour hersh. I didnt know who the man was. After i met the riches and offered to pay the bill for a private investigator, and by the way this whole idea that will something was coo coordinated with rod wheeler, thats absolute nonsense. I interviewed tons of different private investigators. One thing at a time. The sean spicer meeting, did it happen. Ill go back to it. I have a tendency to do that. I apologize. Did it happen. The sean spicer meeting. I had a meeting with sean spicer. I brought rod chile r wheeler along. It was about this audio recording that cy hersh of cy hersh saying theres a mirror copy of the hard drive of seth richs at the Cart Division at the i dont know if. You know hersh says you got his reporting wrong, right . He says you took two and two and made 45 out of it. You know what . Cy hersh, maybe thats his math but the reality is im not saying anything. Listen to it and listen to his own words. Im not concluding anything at all, chris. Im just saying when the source of the material says that your conclusion about it was wrong it should be out there in public space. Whats my conclusion . I dont have a conclusion. You saw it as something important enough to take to spicer. Did he know why you wanted to meet with him . No. So he just took a meeting. I said had i something to talk to him about. Rod wheeler was a tag along. At the last minute, i said why dont you join me and kind of get to know shaup and meet and so on. My conversation with sean about this recording lasted about one minute. He said ed, i dont know anything about if. I dont want to know anything about it. We ended up talking about many other things. Believe it or not, including because he and i both get our shirts at the same place through some company. We talked about the new cotton material on these shirts. Thats the truth. Do you think its coincidental that there seem to be these meetings that Trump Officials take they dont note anything about but they take it anyway and when they get into it they wind up changing the subject away from Something Else . Don junior didnt know what the meeting was about and took it anyway. When they talked about adoption, he didnt understand it. This seems similar to that in terms of a scenario. You know sean, you ask him for a meeting. He said hell take it without knowing what its about. It you tell him about this tape and end up talking about shirts. Sounds a little convenient, no . I think youre trying to make a point thats not there. Let me correct you, okay. Please. I have no idea about donald trump jr. Im going to talk directly about sean spicer. We know each other. Were not good friends but were friendly. I told him i was going to be in washington and wanted to talk to him about something. You didnt say what it was about . No, no. Were you surprised that he said he would take a meeting as busy as he was at the time with somebody he kind of knows but not that well. No, it was i was happy. An aapparently he like meed more than i thought. When you told him about the tape, before you switch on to what shirtmaker you use, what did he say . Which we really did, believe it or not. Im not saying youre not telling it the truth. He said to me, right, i told him after he heard it, by the way, and cy hersh can say whatever he wants. I didnt make any conclusion. Go listen to it and anybody who listens to it will say, hey, theres something here and they should go listen to it debunking rod wheers claims. Com. You still believe theres something to it . You got to let me finish my point because thats one of the things i want to be able to do, okay . Anybody that listens to it will know theres something. I didnt make the conclusion. I sat down with sean. We see each other i saw hat a debate once or twice. We developed a nice friendship. The meeting lasted maybe 12, 15 minutes. Then we got the old, by the way, sean, someones here to see you which just means ed get out of here. How did you leave it with him . I just left. I thought it was cool. Did he say ill follow up with you about this. No, he had no interest at all. Were you disappointed . No, i thought it was cool being in the white house. But ed, you went there to tell him something you thought was important. You wanted him to know about this tape. I wasnt disappointed. You just thought it was cool to be there. He said ed, you know what . Im new here. I dont know. But i cant do anything. Nobody here can do anything. You got to whatever. We just let it go. He didnt tell to you keep him aware of anything or anything like that . No, he had no interest. He didnt even know i was going to talk about anything. We ended up talking about other things, about being in here, how cool it was. The tv was on. There was some game on. We talked about that. Rod wheeler did not talk about asking for a job. I told rod come along and meet him. Maybe somehow you can smooze and get to develop a relationship with him. Another point rod wheeler sent me a text message saying can you get me back in to see sean. I want to give him some information. I have a text message that ill bring to you. All right. Good. The fox news retracted the story as we now nope. Right. Do you still believe there is something to the suggestion . I dont believe theres anything in that story that isnt accurate. You believe its all accurate. Let me finish. I believe rod wheelers saying that he was misquoted is the reason they pulled it. Rod wheeler wasnt misquoted. What rod wheeler did the night before, he had a crush or has a crush on a lady named maria morocco with fox five washington and he leaked the story to her the night before. She wrote a lot of stuff. And i have a text message showing rod saying i need to sue fox 5 because they misquoted me. So now fox 5 misquoted rod wheeler. And then you got to bring in this lawyer womened wigdoor who sues fox for anything, hes been on your channel many times. The combination of rod wheeler being broke, lying and wigdoor putting a case together against fox, now you have a lawsuit that youre quoting thats full of nonsense. You know, ed, why are you getting critical questioning here . Because it matters. Why does it matter . Of course it matters. In part because fox news has come under the microscope for its journalism in part but theres a bigger reason i think. It has nothing to do with politics or the media. You went to the rich family. They were in grieving. They were hurting. They had the worst kind of scenario. They lost a loved one and didnt know what happened. And you went to them with this story about what happened to their son. No, no let me tell you something, chris. I heard that said before. And i want to be very clear. That did not happen. How did you get to them . Let me tell you what happened. Do you know want to know what happened. I really want to know what happened. I want to know why you would go to this family with this type of stuff. Im going to tell you exactly what happened. I heard something. Someone told me something about the seth rich. I dont know the rich family. Who told you something. Im not going to tell you. Thats not something im going to share with you. Why . I thought you wanted to be all open. You were going come up here and hand it to me. Im going to tell you everything except that. Why . Because it was so important whoever told you this that you would go to a grieving family and talk to them about the thing that would hurt them the most. I think we should know who told you. They must have been damn credit credible. Right. Chris, before i came on air, i had a discussion with your producer to let me talk. So let me talk. Youve been talking plenty, ed. You interrupted me. You continue to craft excuse me, chris, you continue to try to to point something out that you think is important and not let me talk. I went to the rich family after finding them, i got introduced to them. I spoke to them december 17th stat 3 17 p. M. For 30 minutes. I started off saying, thank you, im sorry what happened and so on. I heard something. I wanted to share with you. And when i told them, ill tell you exactly what it was. I heard something about wikileaks. They said to me, you know what . We dont believe you. I said fine. We started talking about many other things. Started talking about children and life and so on. They said if you ever find out anything, will you please let us know . Thats all. You know what . This was very private. I had a private discussion with them. When i left or skuts me, when i hung up the phone, i just let it go. And then at some point, someone introduced me to cy hersh. Cy hersh then so would me all of this information. I sent that privately to the rich family. They said, you know what, ed, if you ever have anything concrete, let us know. Then i said why dont you hire a private detective. And they said, we would love to. We cant afford one. You know what, chris . You dont know the me but a lot of people out there do. You know what i said . I said ill pay for it. Now, im not a rich guy. Im not some rich donor. I dont know why you guys keep saying that because im not rich at all. I said you know what . Id be happy to pay for it. I thought as most people would say, no thank you, we dont know the you. They said yes. And i said, oh. I had no idea how much a private detective cost. I started asking, who knows anybody who is a private detective. I got recommended rod wheeler by somebody. I have an email exchange that ill share with you. They said why dont you meet rod wheeler. The first time i talked to him was february 23rd. So this nonsense that he said he had been pinpointed is all bs. Rod wheeler wasnt pinpointed. Rod wheeler spoke to the riches for two weeks back and forth way contract. The whole contract negotiation, chris, according to rod wheeler was erin rich and aaron rischs wife saying dont ever look into wikileaks. Dont ever talk about emails. If you listen and go to debunking rod wheelers claims. Com, theres a 27minute audio there of rod wheeler stating all of this. So rod wheeler then is now involved. There wasnt any of this nonsense that hes talking about coordination, trying to do bad things to him. He knows an all of that. Rod wheel ser broke and hes trying to make some money out of extorting maybe me, maybe fox, who knows. But the facts are will, none of this stuff is adding up to rod wheel ser claiming. Is that your full answer . Yeah, but thank you for letting me talk. So let me ask you some questions. Go ahead. Youre a trump supporter, yes. Im a republican. And i didnt donate any money to trump. Youre a trump supporter, yes . I dont want him to get mad but im a republican. I didnt give him any money and i didnt campaign for him. So i dont know what a trump supporter would be, but i did vote for him . Absolutely. So you voted for donald trump. Yep. We saebed that. You go to the rich family who you didnt know. You didnt have a preexisting relationship, right . None whatsoever. You hear from somebody from somebody how wont reveal the source to be, right . Yeah. Yes. Heres why it matters because on the strength of whoever that person was, and what they told you which you have admitted on this show was not that much that you actually knew what happened because you learned more after the riches when you met Seymour Hirsch and did whatever other investigating that you did, so on the basis of this one piece of information from this one person white sox you wont reveal, you go to a family that is in the worst situation of their live and say to them, hey, i have an idea of what may have happened with your son. Does that make sense to you . Is that the kind of thing that somebody does. Absolutely. They go to a family thats grieving, excuse me, let me finish. I let you finish. I dont appreciate. You go to the family thats grieving and say i heard something, you dont know anything but you heard something. Right. And on strength that have alone and your humanity, you went to this family and offered up to them and that was your only motivation to give them this piece of information . So chris, i resent you trying to characterize me as an insensitive jerk. Because chris. Those are your words. Im asking you a question. I know but you know what . Thats what its coming across. Heres the answer, chris. I went to this family because i thought i had heard something that would help these people because they had said in newspapers and by the way, when i heard that information, it took me about two months after my son went to college and i wouldnt imagine what it would be like to have a son murdered. And nobody was telling them. The Washington Police according to what i read wasnt telling them anything and they werent investigating anything. So when i got hold of them, i went to them thinking, i was actually going to try to help these people bring some relief or some knowledge about what happened to their son. My son had just left to go to vanderbilt. I was an empty nester. Had a lot of time to reflect on my life and you do that when youre an empty nester, chris, okay . Im reflecting and thought this is weird because if i know something and this is the way i am about somebodys kid or if i think i know something this is how i was growing up with my kids, im not going to hold on to something without the parents knowing. Anybody who knows me knows thats the way i am. What i did is a called up, got hold of them and shared with them. As soon as they said we dont believe you, it was over. I just thought i needed to say something. Except it wasnt. You went and found wheeler, talked to hirsch. Youre wrong there. It was over at that time, chris. I understand the distinction. Youre trying to me look the whole situation wasnt over but that introduction was. I understand it. What you downtown know is theyed me to make a donation to the sons memorial. They asked me to come up for a concert in his name. They asked me to find out who this Jack Burkeman guy was, riches asked me. I have a text message or an email. They also said this guy brad bowman just showed up one day and said he was assigned to them from the dnc. They asked me, why . Okay. Lets remember something. Im a republican. Seth rich is a huge Bernie Sanders supporter. The riches are big democrats. I dont care what somebodys Political Party is. I care about human beings and i heard something and i felt inside that i needed to share this with a family. I didnt go there there to upset this family. I went there to help them. They were already upset because the dc police wasnt telling them anything. They were upset because their son was killed. I heard something so i thought i would share with them. That much we know to be true. The rich family put out a statement saying they hope that this lawsuit will end the connection of their son and their family to an ugly set of conspiracies. Im out of time for this. Ed, i hope you feel. Ive got so much more to say. This was a good start. Im looking forward to you giving me all the backing that you said. The support material. Greatly appreciate it. Lets look at the information you have. I want to come back. When we do come back, the republican senator who is taking his own party to task over President Trump. Why he says the gop is in denial about the president. And i can hear social media heating up. Social media, tell us what you think of what ed butowsky just taught you. You know how to get me. Ity is a promise kept. If youve got the time welcome to the high life. Weve got the beer miller beer prosecutor all right. Were back. Arizona republican senator jeff flake says politics has turned too destructive and he blames his party on our president President Trump. Part of his book, conscience of a conservative. He writes to carry on in the spring of 2017 as if what happened was anything approaching normalcy required a determined suspension of critical facts. And tremendous powers of denial. Senator flake also said this to my colleague jake tapper earlier today. Take a listen. Weve kind of as republicans taken up an unfamiliar banner that you know, this populism and you know, in some cases xenophobia, antiimgray, protectionism. Thats not familiar to us and i dont think that that is a governing philosophy. So the senator is making a very side effect argument. Lets discuss debate. We have political commentator jack kingston, former seniors adviser to the Trump Campaign and republican strategist rick wilson. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Jack, i start with you. What, first of all, good to have you both here. Thank you for joining us. What do you make of the senators argument about what has happened within the party and what the president means to it. Chris, i had the honor of sharing third base on the Congressional Baseball Team with senator flake. He got more game time than i did, but i got to know him very well. Jeff has always been an independent thinker, always kind of out there a little bit. He had what we used to call the flake amendments where he would take on earmarks from either party. He is fearless when it comes time to criticize. But as i read one of the articles today about him, his conclusions were we needed to protect the filibuster which i think the filibuster is one of the big problems with the senate. It keeps them arrogant and aloof. I think disconnected with the american people. He said that the president was guilty of playing to his base and i would say no duh, what president doesnt play to his base. And then he said we needed to have free trade. Well, we all support free trade but the other word is fair trade. What the president has said about nafta, its 20 years old. We need to renegotiate it. What he said about tpp was the same thing Hillary Clinton said. I think his conclusions were what we needed to do, they were weak on substance. The senator is making a different point. Ill redirect it to you, rick. The senator is not talking about the what as much as the how. Another excerpt that makes this point. Too often, we observe the unfolding drama along with the rest of the country passively. All but saying, someone should do something. Without seeming to realize that that someone is us, the silence from mcconnell, the silence from ryan outrage after outrage and string things that come out of white house. Thats what the senator is talking about, not the policy, not tpp but how he conducts the business of the white house and being americas leader. Whats your take on that, rick . There is a very broad sense that senator flake has touched on something that a lot of folks inside the party recognize is that donald trump is not a conservative. He is not a republican in the sense that weve understood being a republican or being a conservative for a long time. He is not about limited government or individual liberty or the rule of law or any of these things that are the nompltive forces that shaped consecutive for a very long time. Hes a populist is, sometimes effective pop you lift but thats not conservatism. The things he does behaviorally are very distant from what weve always considered to be normal conservative behavior and the things we would hope that a president would have, dignity, intellectual discipline, a sense of the majesty and honor of the white house and the role he plays and i think senator flake has identified a lot of these problems that folks inside the party have identified and agree with, many of themselves are afraid to say anything about it, many of them the fear of the mean tweet is there. Thats something hes definitely touched on. Those are the party elites. The party elite doesnt like donald trump. Theyve been saying that same thing. Heres a guy who for every new regulation hes put on the books, hes repealed 19 regulations. Thats conservative. Heres a guy who has invested in our military and improved our strength and our stature abroad. Jack, jack, heres the thing. Donald trump has proposed expansi expansions. Jack, finish your point and let rick respond. Hes working for energy independence, protecting our board offers and cutting down on illegal immigration. Those are conservative principles. A lot of the elite in town like the way hes gotten the job done but hes getting a conservative agenda through. Rick, your response. The conservative things that donald trump does are incidental coaccidental and accidental. What happens with this with a guy like donald trump, hes talking about wildly expanding the power of the state. Im a conservative. I dont want. You mean. Of a more powerful government. Jack, i let you speak. Hes talking about expanding the power of the state dramatically. Hes talking about engaging in trade wars. He is a guy who lacks the mental discipline to understand the complexities of the Foreign Affairs challenges that face us right now. I dont think you can just say that the occasional things that you get from regulatory roll backs with dot com prize a consistent conservative philosophy and a coherent intellectual framework of conservati conservatism. The elites have a benefit once in awhile is that they dont just respond to the base emotions of the screaming crowd. That is Donald Trumps forte. Thats what he loves. Thats his gig. I get it. Okay . He doesnt have the intellectual bandwidth for conservative philosophy to talk about conservatism. Thats what democracy is about is every man, one man, one vote. What did you think. May i remind you were in a republic, congressman. His speech in poland in defense of the west and western values, i thought it was a speech for the decade. Even for decades to be studied about the difference between the west and the terrorism and the recklessness and the lack of the rule of law in the rest of the world or a lot of the world. Right. I thought it was real guess who invites him back for bastille day . The president of france. Quick button. Here we go to. I think were in a position where a lot of conservatives look at the behavior of trump. The behaverier is evident every day and its a problem. Thank you for the robust debate. Appreciate you both. I want to turn to the latest white house shake up. Is it going to change the balance of power in the west wing . How so . What about ivanka trumps tweet about the new chief of staff. Looking forward to serving along side john kelly. Working along side is what kault the eye. Why . Because general kelly is supposedly everyones boss now. Everyone has been put underneath him. Does that include the children . Lets discuss. We have tim obrien, executive editor of trump nation. Thank you both for bow being he. John kelly, general, military. Trump respects him, we are told, especially when in uniform. Hes in charge of everyone. Then ivankas tweet comes out. Was this a nudge sgens against power or a ownership of the obvious which is im his daughter. You dont stand between me and my father. Jard and i are first among equals. Im doubtful kelly will make a difference in this white house. The fact is trump is his centrifugal force. He pushes everyone away from him except family members. And thats the problem in this. Its never going to be an organization thats run in a linear tactical way. Hes in it for self agrandizement. Hes not about ideology. People see that as refreshing. Hes pragmatic. He just does works. Hes got to get it done. Refreshing alone doesnt get policy put in place. Respond to that. Let me put my wedding band on my pinky ring. The head rauts the fish rots from the head down. That was bhaut scaramucci put the to the either and now i cant say it without laughing. But the truth of it is that leadership and tone begins at the top. You look in his eyes and realize hes no joke. Hes also not the president. I would just say that the fact that there were four rival Power Centers and a weak chief of staff who couldnt control who the president talked to and didnt have most of the staff reporting to him wasnt didnt just happen. Trump set it up this way and its the same play book hes been using for 30 years. He likes to see people fight, to know they all are trying to fight for his favor. Thats the way he ran the white house and his business. I dont know if john kelly wants to impose new order and that was a new way of showing things are go toing to be different. They have said they will abide by the new rules. They wanted someone who can be more orderly and they have acsthees president in the east wing, even if they technically report to him. Would anybody expect differently . Wouldnt that be unfair if not impractical to say ivanka, jared, they would have to go to the general before they can go to their father . Isnt that an impossibility . No chief of staff has had to deal with family members reporting to him. And they can say they want to report to him but if jared and ivanka have dinner with their dad, are they going to read out every conversation they have with trump on the private time. Its so blurry which is what happens when you have family members serving in senior positions. Let me bounce it back to tim. Theres a difference between be ang intimate and sometimes people around trump can confuse them svls when they are the other. Now, i put to the side these ideas that he was brought in a single Purpose Vehicle to get out priebus. I believe we often ascribe sophistication and strategy with things random or reactionary. So the idea that the general would get rid of scaramucci and the president wouldnt know or approve i think unlikely. I think highly unlikely. So what does that mean about loyalty . Because if Anthony Scaramucci was anything i know its fair to attack him and i know thats very popular. He was loyal to the president. He believed in the president and hes gone. Wore his loyalty on his sleeve. And the intimacy thing you point out is spot on. Because the only intimates are his family members, jared and ivanka and everyone else is fuchgable beyond that and thats a problem because theyre in over their heads. They lack the relevant experience and skills to be playing the roles theyre playing there. The president himself in desperate need of wise counsel and he doesnt take it and most of the adults in this administration with the exception of mattis have been sidelin sidelined. Provocative thoughts needed on this occasion. I mangled one of the best going impersonations out there. You know how you love Melissa Mccarthy as sean spicer, then comes mario can tone, who picked up the mantle of the mooch with performance of Anthony Scaramucci. The scaramucci goodbye. I was a threat. The second i walked through the white house, my days were numbered. Look at me. Im trim, im good looking. I smell good. Youre going to want to lick me liking a pop sickal. I smell better than anybody on trumps team. Those guys smelled like canned corn and thats the first thing in the morning. No, please, please, oh shrieks in terror heavy breathing and snorting no, no. The running of the bulldogs . Surprising. Whats not surprising . How much money aleia saved by switching to geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. boy and these are the lungs. class ewwww boy sorry. dad dont worry about it. mom honey, honey, honey, honey vo at our house, we need things that are built to last. Thats why we got a subaru. avo love. Its what makes a subaru, a subaru. Get 0 apr financing for 63 months on all new 2017 Subaru Legacy models. Now through august 31st. I hope that by now we all understand that rain forests provide the world with clean air and keeping these vital ecosystems in balance is not easy. 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