Transcripts For CNNW CNN Newsroom 20150118

Before the paris terror attacks. One of the brother who is shot up the office of the magazine Charlie Hebdo was buried overnight. Said kouachi is now in an unmarked grave in his hometown in rural france. The towns mayor had no choice. Theyre required by law to bury him there since he was a resident. Across europe the terrorist threat is higher than its been in many years. This is brussels today, soldiers with weapons patrolling the streets and standing guard at many tourist sites including jewish centers. Troops are deployed to antwerp. Security officials all over europe are still trying to get a handle on how many extremists may be preparing violent attacks. Intelligence sources telling cnn terrorist sleeper cells may be activated especially in belgium and holland. Joining us a former jihadist and author. Thank you all for being here. Let me begin with you. Bob barrett, a lot to digest when you look at the scope of the growing investigation into all of this. If we look bob, at the paris suspects as a sort of family of three, they are connected to known terrorists like the underwear bomber also al qaeda leader whos been dead for a year Anwar Al Awlaki. When you look at this do you think the terrorist attackers have been plotting for years akip to a sleeper cell were now being warned about . N to a sleeper cell were now being warned about . I do poppy, and the reason is because they went off the air from the time they trained in 2009 and subsequent trips. They went out of their way not to look like believers or jihadists. Its clear to me at this point they were they werent talking to each other on the phone, they were using wives and girlfriends to talk to each other. There was travel to spain, coulibaly and so forth. The more i see, the more evidence thats made public, is more it looks like this was put in place. I dont think that al awlaki sat down and worked out the details. He probably blessed this operation early on and it took them all those years. And what we dont know is who were the master minds. Probably in yemen. So general, to that point, u. S. Officials telling us here at cnn there are a number of sleeper cells they believe could be housing up to 180 different people. Given that and given what we saw play out in paris, how do you attack that . Well you dont attack individual cells, poppy. You attack the network. And the diagram you showed just a minute ago is what is affectionately known in both the Intelligence Agency and the military as a link diagram. But its missing many places. And theres a lot of holes to be filled in. Who were the financiers . Who were the suppliers . Who gave the rules when to attack and what to attack . All of those things are now being pieced together with maybe some of the other raids that have been occurring recently in belgium. Youll see some new pictures showing up and there will also be some blank holes with no faces and saying who is this individual that will allow us to go after the network that will take down more of these cells . Poppy . I want to get the unique perspective, former jihadi reformed worked with intelligence in canada to try to help fight this youve written a book about this. When you talk about anwar al al awlaki an americanborn, muslim scholar and critic who acted as a spokesperson for aqap, a lot of people have been focusing on him and saying how effective hes being for his movement from the grave. Do you believe that he is critical in what we saw play out in paris and potential future attacks from sleeper cells . Well of course anwar al al awlaki has played a role in radicalizing individual young people who have then ended up joining groups like either al qaeda or isis. And, you know, and i think the main thing is that first of all hes not a scholar. Many islamic scholars have refuted what he believes. And his ph. D. Is in Human Resource management. This is the kind of stuff hes been known to do bring people in send them off to trusted others especially in al qaeda proper. But i wonder why you think he has resonate sod much even after being killed by a u. S. Drone strike. What does it tell us about possible other sleeper cells, possible other young extremists that could be planning to carry out an attack like the kouachi brothers . Hes just a spiritual you know somebody who inspired a radicalizer, a charismatic preacher who puts people on the path. I share the views of your other guests. Hes not an operator. You can kill the person but if the idea remains so would the threat thats generated from those ideas. Very good point. Bob, to you, we talked a lot about i mean for the past months weve been talking act isis and al qaeda trying to oneup one another, and now the conversation has shifted a lot to are the two working more closely together and creating a more dominant force, a more dominant terror group. What is your take on that bob . Poppy, i think theres you know yes, there are disputes between al qaeda and the Islamic State and theyre important ones and they dispute each others islamic credentials, no question about it. At the end of the bay dey, the foot soldiers really with who they want to who is useful, who will pull the trigger, they go to all sorts of resources so theyll cross toez lines. We saw the same thing with iranian terrorism in the 80s, the palestinians did it and so son. When it comes time to the shooting they dont really care about ideological disputes. General, if we go with the assumption and it is just an assumption at this point, we dont have full intelligence saying this that theyre working together but if we go with that that these two groups are not as much fighting each other and going to destroy one another, does this change the game for u. S. Intelligence and operations in the region . I think the intelligence elements will continue to go after each separate organization to try and build those linked diagrams like you showed earlier and expand them. How are they connecting . What kind of cell are interconnecting through europe . What kind of people are talking to each other, some who have talked to aulaqi many years ago, some who are just seeing the websites of isis now and saying they want to be part of the jihad. How do you make that link hike will we saw in paris and what kind of difficulties will we have not only in the cells but in the larger Strategic Network . Were going to talk a lot more about that throughout the hour. Thank you, bob baer mubin shaikh and general bob hertling. We appreciate it. Coming up amid the growing threat of terror in europe the u. S. Taking action, what the government is doing and is it enough . Carpenters rainy days and mondays ac dc back in black chevy colorado. When you find new roads, you win motor trends truck of the year. Nexium® 24hr. Its the purple pill the 1 prescribed acid blocking brand available without a prescription for frequent heartburn. Get complete protection. Nexium level protection™ [ man ] i remember when i wouldnt give a little cut a second thought. When i didnt worry about the hepatitis c in my blood. When i didnt think twice about where i left my razor. [ male announcer ] hep c is a serious disease. Take action now. Go to hepc. Com or call 1844444hepc to find out how you and your doctor can take the next step towards a cure. Because the answers you need may be closer than they appear. Hiring new employees can be tough. But it doesnt have to be. Because now you can post to over 50 of the top job boards with just one click with ziprecruiter. Find candidates in any industry, nationwide. Just post once and watch your qualified candidates roll in to ziprecruiters easy to use interface. Find out today why ziprecruiter has been used by over 250,000 businesses. They even offer a 100 satisfaction guarantee. And right now, you can try ziprecruiter, for free. Go to ziprecruiter. Com free50 as terrorists reportedly ramp up efforts to strike in several european country, homeland officials in the United States also beefing up security. Heres more on that. The headline from my conversation with secretary johnson is another round of rampedup measures at our nations airports is on the way. Its unclear if these will be seen or unseen changes but johnson says its in response to threat streams theyre seeing now. Weve evolved to a new phase in the global terrorist threat. Reporter the head of Homeland Security revealing even more Airport Security measures are on the way. Were looking at doing more in the short term. In reaction to some of the threat streams that were seeing now. Reporter this after dhs announced earlier this week rampedup searches at u. S. Airports over fears terrorists are creating nonmetallic explosives capable of passing through some airport scanners undetected. So when you talk about more measures as far as aviation goes what would that look like . Whats the time line for that and what is the new intelligence were looking at it right now and i told my folks i wanted an assessment in the very short term. And so i expect to get that in the next couple days. Reporter so its unclear what those extra measures would be. Were looking at it right now. Reporter additional random passenger and luggage checks are now happening at the gate. Once travelers have cleared tsa checkpoints. After al qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula published a stepbystep guide to building hard to detect bombs. Following september 11th Transportation Systems continue to be a target for terrorists. In 2005 four suicide bombs detonated within seconds of each other on a bus and three different trains traveling through London Underground stations. In 2010 a man pleaded guilty for plotting to blow up new york subways. We need to focus more on homelandbased threats. Reporter just this week an electrical malfunction caused smoke to fill a d. C. Metro station, killing one and injuring dozens more. Passengers were left waiting for more than 40 minutes before Emergency Responders helped them evacuate raising serious questions about how prepared the u. S. Is to respond to emergencies on the nations transportation system. One does have to wonder what would have happened had that fire been set by terrorists. And clearly the response was inadequate. Reporter johnson struck a reassuring tone saying that the department is assessing new intelligence and threats every day and every hour. Rene marsh, thank you for that. Is the u. S. Putting its security efforts in the right places . Bob baer joins me again, also Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. Bob, let me read you this excerpt from a very interesting article from the daily beasts shane harris. What they got last week in paris, a completely different kind of attack. In claiming credit for last weeks decidedly lowertech shooting spree at the offices of Charlie Hebdo, aqap seems to have flipped its playbook leading to inevitable questions about whether u. S. Officials misjudged the terror groups capabilities or were too focused on the wrong threat bombs instead of bullets. Good point, bob . Well i think, poppy, we should be worried about both. The bomb maker for al qaeda in yemen is very capable. He can take petn which is an explosive, hes been able to conceal it in a attorney cartridge. Looks just like the ink. And of course there was the underwear bomber. The underwear bomber failed because he kept the explosive on his leg and its hydroskopic, it absorbed water and didnt go off. If they had known what they were doing they could have brought that airplane down. What scares me is that al qaeda is advancing in its Technology Just as the corason group is and theres no reason why they both cant do a military style assault in paris and go after airplanes. Its extremely difficult to bring down an airplane but if these guys are Getting Better will they get to that point . Id have to ask the experts. General, what can the u. S. Do to most effectively prevent attacks on both fronts . Aside from all that is being done now, are there lessoned learned from the tragedy we saw play out in paris in terms of the coordination, the training the preparation . Were dealing with an adaptive enemy, poppy, and i think whereas we still have to be very concerned with the Aviation Community and what they do this is an enemy thats shown that they are going to use potentially lone wolf attacks and individual operation cells like we saw in paris and like they were about to do in belgium stealing police uniform, getting into potentially secure locations. And there are a lot of other potential things as weve seen in combat over the last 12 to 14 years, there are opportunities everywhere to hide an explosive device. Im very surprised, not to try and be scary, im very surprised we havent seen more attacks like occurred in paris in the United States yet. Theyre rel live the easy to do and again, were dealing with an adaptive enemy. We have to be more concerned about the environment and also various ways that these kinds of attacks can occur. So bob, given what the general said about this adaptive enemy, youre former cia, right . We rely on guys like you, what you used to do and others to get into the heart of this. With people on the inside is that why you think we havent had attacks like the ones in paris here in the United States for example . Ive asked that question of serving officials now and they cant explain why, poppy. Theyve said these i mean are here, theyre capable of doing these attacks. Ive asked fbi agent, explosive experts about bringing down airplanes with household items. And theyve described to me how it works and how easy it would be. And they dont have an answer why it hasnt happened. I think one of the most important things is we are able to assimilate our immigrant population. Ive said this over and goempb and people that alive in this country like being here and they just integrate very easily. In france germany, britain, theres a pool of potential recruit who is know the terrain, who can pick um these skills in iraq and syria and strike in europe. And i think thats why theyve got the brunt of it and why we should keep our finger cross that would we havent seen anything so far. To you, general, on that point, bob talks about the importance of assimilating immigrant, muslim immigrants making them feel like part of your community. So no one turns to extremism, but also theres a geographical difference right, between the United States and europe. Bob baer was talking to us earlier in the program about it. Do you think thats key . Thats a part of it but i also think we have very close coordination between our intelligent communities now. We did not have that before 9 11. We do have a joint Interagency Task force combining the cia, fbi, nsa, all those other organizations with local and Regional Police forces. I think thats attributed to it significantly. But, poppy, i wouldnt want to spike the ball in the end zone saying we ear completely safe. Im very concerned these kinds of atax continuing not just in europe but all over the world. Yeah. No question. Tacks continuing not just in europe but all over the world. Yeah. No question. Good to have you both on the program. Up next well talk about isis and how relentless the terror group has been on the battlefield and on youtube using propaganda to successfully recruit new fighters. How is the u. S. Military fighting back online . Are wing to enough to win the war on the web . Hey guess what day it is . . Hump day hummmp daaay its hump day yeah hey Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike mike mike. Hey he knows hey guess what day it is hey camel guess what day it is its not even wednesday. Let it go, phil. If youre a camel, you put up with this all the time. Its what you do. sigh if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. Its what you do. Ok. Fact. When you take advil you get relief right at the site of pain. Wherever it is. Advil stops pain right where it starts. Relief doesnt get any better than this. Advil. Isis has had suck says recruiting western fighters with slickly produced images online and putting out images like this one showing fighters in action on the battlefield all in these highly produced videos. In fact all we really see are isis victory videos. Where are the videos of isis defeats . In a war of images are western nations losing the battle with isis online . Earlier i spoke with martha pease, brand expert and ceo of demandworks. Com and bob baer former cia operative. Martha told us what the u. S. Should be doing to win the battle of these images. Isis has created a successful brand, and a brand is an emotional connection with people. When you make that connection you can scale it. Isis has been effective at using propaganda to move their brand along and continue to expand their footprint. In the face of a successful brand where people are looking at isis as a winner, there need to be an alternative narrative put out there. Where are the images of isis losing . Where are the images of setbacks actually being placed in their path a they move forward . I think theres a real void in the narrative out there of the public perception. Do you think that when it comes to most people right, those that arent attracted to what isis does the majority of people when they put videos out of these horrific beheadings for example, arent they in a sense only digging their own grave . Arent they in a sense only turning us away we have such an aversion to seeing that. I think youre absolutely right. For the majority of people in the world, its an awful image and an awful brand, but thats not who theyre talking to. Right. Theyre targeting the mostly young men i mean if you think in france 40 of the young muslim men in france are unemployed. Thats a perfect target audience feel disenfranchised. They see winning, they see domination they see success, and, you know, thats a logical magnet for some of those people who turn to. And from a marketing and branding perspective, what can start to put some boundaries on that is an alternative set of images and an alternative to that brand story, really. So its an interesting point. Bob, when it comes to a National Security perspective, right so, much of what hes done in the cia, youre former cia, we never know about. So does it bring up the issue of a major National Security question our tactic et cetera if the u. S. Starts putting out images of how i mean they put out some satellite images but really more graphic images of defeats of isis. We also as an open society provide most of the propaganda for the Islamic State. You look at the images from awebu ghraib even the wikileaks, when theyre firing rockets at targets in iraq and those are replayed and replayed and replayed and for an uneducated group of people like that live in the slums around paris, all they can do is identify with islam and that we are oppressing muslims, and thats the message that the Islamic State is riding on and i agree, they are winning. To bobs point, martha what should be put out . Yeah bob makes a very good point. I do really question from a brand building perspective whether or not theres something that can be done effectively to at least turn broaden the attitude toward the position of isis. And its such an important point given how many people now are radicalized and even trained online to these ideals. They dont need to travel to yemen to get this training as they carry out these horrific attacks. Martha thank you. Appreciate it. Bob baer thank you as well. All right. Isis and al qaeda arguably the biggest threats against the west the u. S. Right now. But coming up hear why one u. S. Senator insists iran should be on that list as well if not topping it. Thats next. At tmobile you can hook up the whole family for 100 bucks. Get 4 lines with unlimited talk and text and up to 10 gigabytes of 4g lte data. Plus get the brandnew Samsung Galaxy note 4 for 0 down. At ally bank no branches equals great rates. Its a fact. Kind of like mute buttons equal danger. That sound good . Not being on this phone call sounds good. Its not muted. Was that you jason . It was geoffrey it was jason. It couldve been brenda. Ben. Well, that was close. You aint lyin. Let quicken loans help you save your money. With a mortgage thats engineered to amaze. We come by almost every day to deliver your mail so if you have any packages you want to return you should just give them to us i mean, were going to be there anyway why dont you just leave it for us to pick up . Or you could always get in your car and take it back yourself yeah, us picking it up is probably your easiest option its kind of a no brainer ok, well, good talk security stepped up across much of western europe tonight and amid a series of separate terror investigations. At least 29 people arrested with suspected ties to the paris terror attacks or to islamic extremist groups. In belgium, security is tighter than it has been in decades, evidence of that clear on the streets as we see from our International Correspondent ivan watson. Belgians woke up saturday morning to something they havent seen in more than 30 years, the deployment of soldiers from the arnold forces in two belgian city, brussels and also antwerp and this is in response to some of the security threats that have emerged not only in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attack in paris but also after police went after a suspected jihadi cell in the eastern belgian city of verviers. It resulted in a gun battle thursday night in which two suspects were killed and a third was taken into custody. Brussels is not only the capital of belgium, its also the capital of the european union, a europe that is increasingly on edge amid more and more reports of europeans who have gone to syria to join the Islamic State. Isis and are coming back and posing a threat to the continent. We have moved to stage three of the terror alert threat. We are offering extra protection to ambassadors jewish institutions and other organizations at embassies that could be at threat. We need extra vigilance. We need a Police Reinforcement under the command of the federal police. Reporter this is one of the buildings thats gotten additional military protection, the Jewish Museum in brussels and with good reason because last may it was the target of a deadly attack that resulted in the slet deaths of four people. A french citizen has since been arrested and charged with murder in connection with that attack. Before the assault here he believed to have traveled to syria and to have been linked to the isis militant group. There are thousands of europeans who have made a similar journey, but this little country, belgium, is believed to have per capita more suspected jihadis than any other country in western europe. Ivan watson cnn, brussels. A western intelligence source tells us here at cnn as many as 20 sleeper cells comprising up to 108 people could be ready to strike across europe at any time. That is an alarming number. Illinois senator mark kirk thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. From the intelligence we youve heard given your privy, what youve heard, do you believe that al qaeda or isis is capable of unleashing another big attack like this somewhere or in the snus. I think we are now safer than we were before 9 11 and not completely safe. We are still vulnerable to a homegrown attack like the one we saw like the man from ohio mr. Cornell, who wanted to attack the u. S. Capitol. Just on his own. Were not completely safe no. Our key vulnerability is probably a local homegrown terrorist. Can can. That is what officials have been warning about far long time. You believe theres a greater threat to america right now. I want to read a quote of yours. You said in addition to the threat of terrorists i believe a nuclear iran is the greatest threat to future generations. I dont want to see our children flich fear of a Nuclear Attack from iran. You are saying it sounds like to me we are not paying enough atengts to iran as we look at all the threats to this country. What im saying im leading a very broad Bipartisan Coalition of members of the senate who are concerned that we can level sanctions on iran to make sure our children never have to witness a nuclear war in the persian gulf. Thats a future worth really working hard to avoid. There has been progress not total progress but progress made on these Nuclear Talks between the United States and iran. The deadline i would disagree let me just finish. Let me finish the question sir, if i could. The deadline is july. You and senator menendez have come up with this bipartisan bill preparing to levy tougher sanctions against iran if if we do not have an agreement on the Nuclear Front by july. The president has said i will veto that if that comes to my desk. Why work to pass them now and potentially alienate iran in the process rather than waiting to see what happens on the negotiations front . Remember poppy, even the president has said its less than a 50 50 chance of having it will talks work. If we take the president at his word and think of it as likely these talks dont work out, we will also need a block of bipartisan sanctions to bring the iranians back to the table to resume efforts to stop their nuclear program. And i think the question that some have is even if they certainly agree with that saying why not wait you want to see it passed before. One thing the iranians need is more time to complete their nuclear arms. We should not have an unlimited time for them to complete the construction of their nuclear arsenal. So the u. S. And iran had been working albeit separately not together, to take out isis. Do you believe there could be an increase in coordination between poppy, i would say hiring the iranians to fight isis is like hiring the local town arsonist to be in your Volunteer Fire Department with a 30year record of commitment to terror. The iranians are not going to change their stripes just because president obama is the president. So no sort of coordination youd like to see on that front in the fight against isis . Actually i dont think its realistic to think of help from iran against terror. Thanks for joining us this evening. I appreciate it p. Okay. Thank you. Coming up, an american cartoonist standing up for free speech and urging others to draw cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. She is on al qaedas hit list. She is in hiding. What is being done to keep her safe . [container door opening] what makes it an suv is what you can get into it. [container door closing] what makes it an nx is what you can get out of it. Introducing the firstever lexus nx turbo and hybrid. Once you go beyond utility theres no going back. woman caring for someone with alzheimers means i am a lot of things. I am his guardian. I am his voice. So i asked about adding oncedaily namenda xr® to his Current Treatment for moderate to severe alzheimers. It works differently. 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Prior to his death he was one of nine men and women and two women on an al qaeda hit list. Their names and pictures depicted under the headline wanted, dead or alive, for crimes against islam. An american cartoonist is also on that list. She went into hiding four years ago and has not been seen or heard from since. Heres cnns alina machado. Ive been grieving for four years. Reporter its been that long since tim has seen from his colleague and friend molly norris, a seattle cartoonist who went into hiding in 2010 after receiving Death Threats from radical islamists. She is the unlikeliest person to be at the center of an International Incident involving hate. Radical cleric Anwar Al Awlaki said norris was a prime target for execution for creating cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad proposing an everybody draw muhammad day. A teacup and a domino. She didnt mean to skewer or offend. She just thought people should lighten up. She was just standing up for free speech. Reporter norris created the cartoon partly in response to comedy centrals decision to sensor an episode showing muhammad. He says norris followed up the controversial cartoon with this one, including relsous tolerance. Her first impulse was not to strike back but to reach out and embrace. Reporter the fbi told norris her life was in danger and she decided to disappear. Tim says she compared the threats to cancer. You never know if its going to be fine for the rest of your life or erupt at some point and end your life. Reporter three years after she vanished norris name popped up again, this time on al qaedas most wanted list in the jihadist magazine inspire. The list also included Charlie Hebdos editor gunned down last week in paris. It was horrible. I thought, oh now its raising its head again, but i think really its been its really been shadowing her ever since. Reporter former fbi agent tom fuentes says assuming a new identity is not easy. To stay hidden like that would be the equivalent of being dead. Reporter and it often means leaving everything behind including family and friends. Theres no indication these terrorists are going to say, well its ban long time we forgive and forget. Reporter alina machado, cnn, new york. Alina, thank you for that. I bring back in former cia operative bob baer and former jihadi helping authorities fight terrorism, mubin shaikh. Thank you both for being here. Mubin, when you see that piece, it is chilling to think here in america, kit happen anywhere. Do you think the threat against her life is credible . Yes, i do think the threat against her life is credible. The prophet salaam is more beloved than even our parents, and really the feeling is that imagine your mother being depicted with her genitals displayed, engaging in bestiality thats going to provoke people. Bob, can you weigh in on that as well . Because you have a very unique perspective given the fact that you, yourself got this phone call about four months ago from cia fbi saying you yourself landed on an assassination list, yet youre out here talking to us. What did it change in terms of your life . Well poppy, it changed a lot in the sense that ive spent 30 years in the middle east and to really understand the place i like to go there a lot. But like i said four months ago the fbi called me. By the way, theyve been great. So has the cia. Its a duty to warn. They said i ended up on an assassination list state sponsored. They wouldnt give me any details, but the fbi was very clear, do not leave the country under any circumstances. I had a new book out. I couldnt go to paris or london places like that. It does change your life. You have to take these things credibly. As we saw in paris. I think the fact is these wars in the middle east are coming home and were all affected by it. On the other hand im not going to get off the news and im not going to go into hiding. By the way, cnn has been great on this too. They havent been afraid of the story at all. So you just have to continue your life and be cautious. But ive been under threat in the cia as well and i understand the politics. I think it was a mistake for the people in paris at Charlie Hebdo Editorial Staff not to have more security. Did the french go to them because obviously one policeman wasnt enough and they should have known this. Their identities their where they lived was all available online. They simply didnt take the precautions they should have. Mubin, i saw you nodding your head. Did you want to add to that . Well when bob said that the wars in the middle east are coming home, you know if were going to have an intelligent debate i think very simplistically grievances and ideology. And when these two mix, this is where you get, radicalization extremism, and violent extremism. So, you know theres ban lot of talk about is islam to blame, is islam to blame. There is. There are deviant parts of the religion castigated by islam itself that are to blame, but at the same time there is a reallife consequence to engaging in these wars for so long. And moving quickly before we go, i wonder for you, someone who was part of the Jihadi Movement then left it came back to help authorities fight terrorism, has there been backlash to you . Have you had threats on your life . Yes, of course. Theres been backlash. Theres been threats. But, you know, i operate in a domestic context. I dont have blood on my hands. And, you know, im not antimuslim. Im very muslim. So of course you have to take them credibly but like bob said, you know you just keep on keeping on. Right . Mubin Shaikh Bob Baer thank you both. Appreciate it. Coming up next former defense secretary cia director, rather, leon panetta says we are entering a new and more dangerous chapter in the war on terrorism. 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Facing a much more aggressive form of terrorism. That statement coming from former cia director leon panetta in an exclusive interview with our Fareed Zakaria. Listen. Youve got terrorists coming at us from a lot of Different Directions from isis from boko haram, from al shabab from aqap from other elements of al qaeda. They are recruiting like crazy from these various wars in syria and iraq and yemen, and they seem to be involved in more planning and more weapons in terms of the types of attacks that theyre working on. So i think its pretty clear from what were seeing that we are entering a more threatening and more dangerous period in this war on terrorism. It is a fascinating interview. The whole thing tomorrow on Fareed Zakaria gps 10 00 a. M. Lets talk more about what the former cia director had to say. Bob baer general Mark Hertling and former jihadi mubin shaikh now working with authorities to fight terrorism. Thanks for being here. Thank you all for being here. Listening to what leon panetta said do you agree that this is a more dangerous enemy . Most certainly. The last 120 to 20 years have been eight because of this and it is because of the collapse of government. There is just a lot of open space out there where these kind of organizations can attempt to do brutal things in wrong names. I think were going to see continued emphasis on this until some governments especially in the middle east some in africa have a Better Process for securing their people. Also economic inclusion and economic opportunity, right . So bob, there has been a lot of talk about these young, en unemployed men. When you look at sleeper cells laying in wait how do they react when other cells get busted. Lets me go back to general hurtlings comments. They have failed states. Nigeria is a failed statement in the sense it is in a civil war. People in these communities in france as britain identify as first muslims and second europeans or where ever they come from. When theyre bombing were theyre not targeting civilians but they are dieing. And drone attacks as well. You have a civil war between shiite and sunni. And the wars are coming back here. If it gets worse, and it will i think, well have a strike here. Are you saying u. S. Strategy should change . Given the civilians and the drone strikes have taken those lives . What are you saying . That the u. S. Should change strategy or it is inevitable it comes here . I think it is time to change strategy. We needed the drones to put al qaedas offensive on the west. We needed the drones for the Islamic State and move on baghdad. Now we have to some in the political reality that we held these forces in check. Were going to be tied up in 100 years. I dont think we would win it. Do you agree that if the strategy were to change in terms of the drones strikes, the offensive against isis in al qaeda, would that change what is being planned against the United States . Partially. I think there are a number of layers to this of course. One layer is part of the reason why the u. S. Is targeted is because of the interventions in those places. Even if they were to pull out just suddenly withdrawal everything maybe that would do something, but i dont think even if they by the time it changes there is so much politicking going on in the u. S. By the time that happens there would have been attacks in the works being planned long before any kind of change would materialize. General, some said we saw a real transition here by al qaeda being lead by osama bin laden. And isis whose goal is to create an Islamic State as quickly as they can with a wide swath of land. Do you believe the reasons behind what is motivating this have changed somewhat . I believe they changed significantly. The ideology is different than that of isis. It doesnt matter. I agree with both of the other guests in that we cant kill our way out of this. There has to be other strategies that bring in governments and a learned people to help build this throughout the world been there has to be leadership throughout the middle east and the world in solving some of these problems. We cant continue to just drop bombs. I think the American Culture is such that we have a quick mentality of lets do this and get it over with. This is a generation it looks like we lost our guest there, but thank you all. Were going to be right back after a quick break with something to smile about. What many are calling the video of the day. That is up next. And up to 10 gigabytes of 4g lte data. Plus get the brandnew Samsung Galaxy note 4 for 0 down. Out of 42 vehicles. Based on 6 different criteria. Why did a panel of 11 automotive experts. Name the Volkswagen Golf motor trends 2015 car of the year . Well give you four good reasons the allnew Volkswagen Golf starting at 17,995. Theres an Award Winning golf for everyone. My name is bret hembree. I am an electric crew foreman out of the cupertino service center. I was born and raised in the cupertino area. Its a fantastic area to work. The new technology that we are installing out in the field is important for the customers because system reliability i believe is number one. Pg e is always trying to plan for the future and we are always trying to build something stronger and bigger and more reliable. I love living here and i love the community i serve. Nobody wants to be without power. I dont want my family to be without power. Its much more personal to me for that reason. I dont think theres any place i really would rather be. Bill kostz by is performs his first of two scheduled shows this hour in denver. Protestors are speaking out against Sexual Assault claims against cosby. The 77yearold denies the allegations and has not been charged. Pope francis swapping his whites for a yellow pancho today. Despite high winds and heavy rains, thousands of people shows up for the service today. The pope was forced to cut short the huge outdoor pass. A lot of people talking about that video. The cnn family has lost a legend. Im Stewart Laurie arksloory. He died friday at his home in brooklyn. He helped launch the first ever goodwill games. His passion for telling a good story led him around the world. He was 82. In europe today, more rides terror tension in belgium. Army troops with their weapons on the streets of brussels are working alongside the police. Several intelligence agencies are predicting another terrorist attack. These are countries that have suspects in custody this weekend linked to this months deadly shooting in paris, or suspecting of belonging to ooisz lambicislamic extremist groups. Coming up next tonight on cnn, two special reports. First up the o. J. Trial drama of the century, that is next. The following is a cnn special report. The shocking crime. Ron and nicole were butchered. The riveting car chase. 911, what are you reporting . I have oj. J. In the care. Now, o. J. Simpson on trial for murder. This was the perfect soap opera. The charters like