Clients and he denied ever sending giuliani to ukraine on his behalf. The president s efforts to separate himself from giuliani is starting to sound awfully similar to his relationship with another personal lawyer, Michael Cohen. Which very quickly went south. Take a listen. Michael cohen is a very talented lawyer. Rudy giuliani is a great lawyer. I always like michael. Rudy is a great gentleman. Well, you have to ask that to rudy. They got cohen totally unrelated to the campaign. Im not involved. Rudy has other clients other than me. Our Kaitlan Collins is in west palm beach. We heard from the president now saying that he doesnt know what giuliani was doing in ukraine, even though we do know he was there for the president. Do we have a sense today of how the white house is reacting to this news that giuliani was look for other deals. Reporter well, alex, they havent said anything publicly but far long time now white house officials have really tried to put some distance between themselves and Rudy Giuliani because he caused problems for them time and time again even before the impeachment inquiry got started the hush money payments the president made, comments that Rudy Giuliani would go on cable news and make and of course those extensive interviews he so frequently gave. So essentially they have never thought that Rudy Giuliani was helpful to what theyre trying to do inside the white house, but of course hes something that they have had to deal with time and time again because he and the president are close. And hes made that clear over the last few days. You have seen the president essentially trying to put some distance between the two of them, saying he didnt know what Rudy Giuliani was up to in ukraine. You said Rudy Giuliani respond to that, not only making that joke, as he calls it, about having insurance on the president , also saying he speaks to the president often and makes pretty clear they talk on a regular basis. So right now no comment on that. But the question is what the president does here. Ever since those two associates of giulianis were arrested, the president saying he didnt know them and now hes trying to say he didnt know what Rudy Giuliani was doing in ukraine and he wasnt the one who sent them there to seek out those investigations on his behalf, even though you can read the president s own words where he is telling people to work with giuliani when it came to ukraine. So far we know that giuliani is not representing the president. According to white house officials he is still his attorney. Whether or not that changes, its certainly something the president is keeping his eye on, what is happening not only with this story about what he was doing with that then top prosecutor but also now that we have those reports that federal prosecutors are looking into giulianis consulting bisz. Alex . That is a very important point. In that transcript between the phone call between president s trump and zelensky, President Trump specifically asking zelensky to work with Rudy Giuliani. Kaitlan collins in west palm beach. Thanks very much. Yep, three times. Here with me now to discuss all of that and more are abby phillips, cnn political correspondent, rinado and former federal prosecutor and doug hyde. Thank you all for joining me on this thanksgiving. Happy thanksgiving to all of you. Happy thanksgiving. Abby, i want to start with you. Bouncing off of what kaitlyn was saying, how do you see the president s attitude changing towards giuliani . Does this new reporting in the post and the times, does it make the president more likely, do you think to distance himself from giuliani . Absolutely. I mean, weve already seen the president trying to do that as kaitlyn said for several weeks now. And the ways in which this really parallels what happened with Michael Cohen is that the president is aware at this point that there is this on going inquiry into giulianis consulting business, that federal prosecutors are looking into what he was doing in terms of that business. And similarly, around the time that the president started distancing himself from Michael Cohen, his former personal attorney, was when it became clear that Michael Cohen was also under federal investigation. So, you know, its not clear to me if the president is fully aware of everything that was going on. But hes aware enough to know that at this point he wants to have very little to do with the part of this that could become a part of this criminal investigation and also giuliani himself points out that the reason that he may not have pursued some of these deals, these hundreds of millions of dollars worth of deals with ukrainian officials at around that time, is because he knew it looked bad. The president is also aware that this kind of double dipping that giuliani was apparently interested in doing also looked bad. And the president clearly wants to try to step back from some of that. Even if hes not fully aware of all of the details of what was going on. I think we just dont know yet how many how much exactly he knows about what giuliani has been up to. Doug, if the president continues down this path and he continues to distance himself from giuliani, does this give republicans a scapegoat . Could this be effective, even though we know as we have been saying that giuliani was in ewe kran on behalf of the president . For republicans this could be the ultimate scapegoat. Theres an old phrase in washington you serve at the pleasure of. Thats no more true than for donald trump than it is for thats more true for donald trump than it is for anyone else. What we have seen so often with trump is that you are a great and trusted and valued aide, very publicly until the minute youre not. Michael cohen learned that and we can go through countless examples of people who have learned that but more specifically for rudy, look at what happened with Michael Cohen. One thing im hearing from a lot of republicans and i think would make sense to a lot of viewers, we have seen so many interviews Rudy Giuliani where we scratched our head. This isnt just a political problem. Hes put himself in more legal jeopardy. If hes going to be thrown under the bus, he may be thrown under a very long bus that goes back and forth over him. I want to ask you about that, that legal jeopardy that he may be in. We know that federal prosecutors are looking into giulianis business dealings. Of course we know two of his associates have been indicted. How hot is the water that hes in right now . Its scalding. Realistically, if you are dealing with people who are under federal indictment, receiving large quantities of money from them and you are doing business with them, youre in potentially in very hot water anybody, no matter who you are. You are going to be seriously looked at by the feds. And we have seen evidence that they are devoting substantial resources to investigating mr. Giuliani. So if hes not the target of their investigation or a target meaning somebody who will be indicted, hes somebody they want to try to build a case to indictment. And theres a laundry list of charges that they are looking at him for. If i was mr. Giulianis lawyer, i would tell him to expect an indictment. I want to hit on another topic that of gordon sondland, the u. S. Ambassador to the european union. There are new questions about his credibility this morning. He told ukraine that they would have to carry out investigations into the bidens, into the 2016 election, in order to get that military aid from the Trump Administration. Now the Washington Post has this headline, witness testimony and records raise questions about trumps account of no quid pro quo call. Now, that piece claims that no other witness testimony or documents corroborate sondlands description of the september 9th call that he had that he said he had with the president. That call is a key part of the president s defense that no quid pro quo took place. Abby, on that call, sondland says that trump told him tell zelensky, tell president zelensky to do the right thing. Abby, do you think that this new reporting moves the needle at all considering the wealth, the magnitude of all the other testimony that we heard . Well, you know, i do think it raises more credibility about sondland as a witness, who has been trying to straddle this line between not offending the president or not incriminating the president too much but also trying to clear his name after it became very clear that he wasnt telling the truth about certain incidents that other witnesses had testified to. But i also think that we got to keep in mind here that that call based on the reporting that we have had just in the last week, it happened long after President Trump was aware that there were that there was a whistleblower complaint that was raised about the with holding of aid. At the time the president said sondland had this call with him knew that people were complaining that there was a possible quid pro quo happening in this situation. So, this call has always been a minimal importance because just because the president says hes not doing a quid pro quo, doesnt mean thats not actually what was happening. And so whether or not the call happened probably doesnt change the facts as we know it. But it certainly does kind of discount sondland even further as a reliable witness for either side in this investigation. Multiple witnesses said eight days prior on september 1st, sondland told a top zelensky aid, unless zelensky launched those investigations they would not be getting that aid. I want to hit one more topic before i let you all go. Were still getting more rulings regarding whether the former white house lawyer don mcgahn will have to testify in congress. A Federal District judge yesterday he issued a stay on an order for mcgahn to comply with the white house impeachment subpoena. Renato, the president has lost a series of cases in court, but how much does this ruling play into his hands because essentially it does delay everything. Well, thats right. Look, the president has taken positions that are, you know, really not within the mainstream of american legal reasoning. I would view them as delay tactics. Theyre not serious legal positions in my view. And thats why we have seen loss after loss after loss, but the point here is just to delay. And i think it has had success along those lines. Its probably going to delay mcgahn until after the impeachment inquiry and the impeachment process is complete. And thats really the only goal there even if, as the judge noted, the position is being taken by President Trump. Folks, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much and happy thanksgiving. Coming up, it was touch and go there for a minute, but the balloons made it into the air for the famous macys thanksgiving day parade. Well look at how the weather is holding up around the country. Plus the man just fired from his post as the Navy Secretary is now firing back at President Trump. Why Richard Spencer is saying the president has very little understanding of what it means to be in the military. Stay with us. People than me jd power. 448,134 to be exact. They answered 410 questions in 8 categories about vehicle quality. And when they were done, chevy earned more j. D. Power quality awards across cars, trucks and suvs than any other brand over the last four years. So on behalf of chevrolet, i want to say thank you, real people. Youre welcome. Were gonna need a bigger room. only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. They release medicine fast, for fast pain relief. Tylenol®. For fast pain relief. Wayfairs biggest black fridis now on. Ever yes score unbelievable savings. Like living room up to 70 off. Storage solutions from 9. 99. And area rugs up to 80 off. 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It was also a reminder that the president has very little understanding of what it means to be in the military, to fight ethically or to be governed by uniform set of rules and practices. This comes as top military officials worry about a moral problem festering in the pentagon and growing increasingly frustrated with the president s sporadic and contradictory decision making. Our Barbara Starr has that reporting. Joining me now from the pentagon. Barba barbara, is proudly, famously apolitical. How has this Eddy Gallagher affair made things worse . Well, it has really brought this festering problem to the forefront, alex. You know, the military is a reflection of american society, obviously. There are many troops out there who do support the president , who believe very much believe that he is looking after them, getting them increased funding. Getting them out of wars, that sort of thing. So he has support within the military. But he also has, as you might expect, a lot of people who are very concerned about that erratic and sporadic decision making. And it really is the Top Commander es who are beginning to worry. The gallagher case put the president into what should have been, they feel, a military justice review handled by the military. They saw no reason for the president to intervene, especially when it became very publicly clear that fox news and this is fact, not opinion, fox news was very much in his ear trying to urge him to intervene in these cases. So, what you have now secretary spencer spelling it out, the need for uniform application, steady command and control, steady orders. You might recall some weeks back the president tweeted that u. S. Troops were killing machines, trained to be killing machines, and of course the u. S. Military feels that is exactly not what they are. They want to see some discipline return to this process. A lot of worry that the president will continue to do this. Alex . Barbara, terrific reporting. You can read a lot more from Barbara Starr on cnn. Com. Barbara starr at the pentagon, thanks very much. Sure. Joining me to discuss this further is mart hurtling, a cnn military analyst and former commanding general of the u. S. Army in europe. Thank you for joining me on this thanksgiving. Happy thanksgiving, alex. And to you. I want to start with a quote of yours that you actually gave to barbara in her piece on cnn. Com in which you talk about the current state of the u. S. Military. And you wrote, it may not break but it sure the hell is being bent by this and increasingly becoming brittle. So how dire do you view this situation . Well, i wouldnt put it in the dire category, alex, but i would put it in the challenging category. Why i say that is because the military is a profession. Secretary spencer said the other day, it is the profession of arms. When ever you define a profession, there are certain tenants that go along with that. They have an ethos and set of values they abide by, certainly all branchs of the military have that. Another tenant of professionalism is they are required to discipline or even dismiss their own when they violate the standards of the profession. And thats what were seeing right now with President Trumps involvement in this action against the two sailers and the navy s. E. A. L. He is trying to insert himself in professional norms where professionals are supposed to be the ones that discipline and dismiss others. Certainly thats a part of the challenge that were seeing. But another part