Anderson Cooper takes viewers beyond the headlines with in-depth reporting and investigations. Anderson Cooper takes viewers beyond the headlines with in-depth reporting and investigations. Anderson Cooper takes viewers beyond the headlines with in-depth reporting and investigations. Anderson Cooper takes viewers beyond the headlines with in-depth reporting and investigations. because the e-mail said they were talking about a sealed indictment in a russian court about hillary clinton. sealed indictments have been released in the past during campaigns. as you recall in 2004, there was a state senator from illinois. he was a democrat. he was running against a republican who had a lot of money, and his -- >> so you don't see anything sleazy about the meeting? >> no. no. >> do you think rudy giuliani is doing a good job representing the president in the public sphere? >> yes. >> because it seems to be he's made contradictly statements, confusing statements. do you think that's part of his job to sort of muddy the waters and have people say, look, i don't know what's going on and throw up their hands? >> so to muddy the waters, one, this is going to get -- this is ultimately going to be fought in the public, and it's a political knife fight for the presidency. we're 99 days out from the midterms. it is essentially, as steve bannon has said, donald trump's first re-elect. look, the democrats, they don't want to talk about impeachment. Anderson Cooper takes viewers beyond the headlines with in-depth reporting and investigations. republicans who would be very happy to see donald trump impeached in the senate -- he's laying the case out systematically. >> what do you see as his bias? are you talking about that -- >> not bias. here's what i see. here's -- >> giuliani is now raising this specter of he's inherently biased. he should have recused himself because of some conflict between them -- >> i don't think it's a conflict between donald trump and robert mueller on the golf course. that's a side issue. my issue is, is that we have 325 million people in this country, and i think we have a lot of lawyers in this country. i understand why you would want to get the former fbi director in general, objectively, to be the special counsel when you're investigating the president of the united states. but robert mueller's argument on obstruction, he's using james comey. if you look at the questions that have been leaked, even the -- in "the new york times," right? it was reported in "the new york times." if you look at the questions, the questions that involve michael flynn's firing, because that involves what james comey alleges that donald trump said to him. you look at all of them. they're all interrelated to james comey, and they're also essentially the same way michael cohen was essentially wiretapping donald trump, right? he has his iphone and he's copying it. these contemporaneous memos that james comey say have probative value, which mueller clearly does. then mueller has this relationship with james comey that i find to then investigate the firing of james comey, when you lobbied barack obama for him to be your successor, there's something -- there's a problem with that. >> it does seem, though, that we don't really know -- i mean it's one thing for us to talk about the mueller investigation because of little leaks, things that have leaked out or things that have been ascertained because of court documents. we really don't know the vast iceberg that's underneath the surface. >> and that goes exactly to why robert mueller, to this point, he's spent a lot of money. he's almost spent more money than ken starr has spent in all these years, can issue some kind of report so we can see the nature. >> as you know, for an investigation, it's not gone on that long compared to the benghazi investigation, compared to iran-contra. >> i agree exactly from that point. but we should at least get some idea, let's say, so that we know -- >> why? >> because -- >> why give up information about an ongoing investigation? >> about preliminary findings, about whether or not the trump campaign had some kind of coordination with these e-mails. and putin did the hacking. i would like to see where this is going because what we don't know is what is going on. you have people in this country -- you have americans, and they'll say, robert mueller is going to ultimately get donald trump impeached. you have other people that say, donald trump did not do anything. you know, mueller this, mueller that. >> do you know of any investigation in which they give out preliminary stuff halfway through? >> this is an ahistoric investigation. we've never seen something like this. >> all sorts of legal reasons and investigative reasons, it doesn't make -- and for political reasons. >> you're talking about the investigation in terms of -- >> right, the sanctity of the investigation. >> no, the criminal part and these indictments. i'm talking about the political, and this is political. they're building a narrative. this is political, and at the end of the day, 99 days from today at this midterm, anderson, this is essentially donald trump's first re-elect because he will be impeached by jeremy nadler out of the house judiciary committee if nancy pelosi is the speaker. >> always good to have you on. >> thank you very much. >> joining us, bakari sellers, amanda carpenter, steve cortes, and rich lowry. do you think there's a scenario under which donald trump jr. didn't tell his father about this trump tower meeting ahead of time? >> i think it's unlikely, but i do think we need to focus in much more on don junior because we have to ask ourselves why did rudy giuliani go into a panic today? they are panicked about michael cohen may say about the trump tower meeting. they've all denied up and down that donald trump had knowledge about it. now michael cohen is saying he can place it there. this is a problem for don junior because he has testified to the senate judiciary committee four times under oath that he did not tell his father about the meeting. so that's a perjury problem right there, and i also took note in the interview this morning with alison on "new day" that giuliani placed rick gates at those meetings. his name came up in the conversation. why is that important? it's important because rick gates is already a cooperating witness with the mueller investigation. he pled guilty to charges in early february. and if he can corroborate what michael cohen says, you have two people sticking to the same story against the multiple denials even under oath that team trump has given. that's a huge problem for don junior. >> steve, do you see this as a problem? >> well, look, potentially. we'll see. by the way, when i say a problem, i mean the way giuliani framed this today. i have tremendous admiration for him. i think he was the best mayor in american history. >> do you think he's doing his client any favors? >> i don't know what he was doing this morning quite frankly. i followed this as quiclosely a anybody and he had me thoroughly confused. i think when he was talking about collusion, is it a crime or not, he almost appeared like a law professor. that's not where we are in the realm of law. this is about a political kangaroo court that the swamp is operating and we need to approach it and fight it like a political fight. this is a political cage match. this isn't about criminal law. so i think to me, he confused the issue there, and we need to continue to telegraph what the president has for many, many months. no collusion. and if there's no collusion, then they don't have a political case to usurp what we did in 2016. >> bakari, is that what it boils down to, to no collusion? again, giuliani today seemed to move the goal post saying, well, collusion is not a crime. so indicating, well, if there was collusion, it's not a crime. >> no, and i don't know what theoretical law is. somebody's going to have to explain that to me. i will tell you there are two tracks the white house is on right now. one, you have the criminal issues that have arisen and will arise out of this investigation. that's one. and, two, they're doing something that the clinton administration also did, which is play impeachment politics. that is what you see when rudy giuliani comes on tv. you asked a question, is he failing his client? rudy giuliani is proving to be an awful lawyer. i mean that is what we're seeing. collusion is not a crime. that's a fact. as a democrat, as a lawyer, i can tell you that collusion's not a crime. but mail fraud is. federal elections violations is. bank fraud, wire fraud, obstruction, perjury. the list goes on and on and on. conspiracy. all of these things. the e-mails that were received by the trump campaign, the federal election commission views though as at least having a modicum of value. that means there's a conspiracy to do this and usurp those federal election laws, then you've committed a crime. and so when people say that this isn't a criminal issue, it is. but this is two tracks. impeachment politics, which they're doing a really good job of muddying the water, but there are issues out there for criminality that donald trump jr. needs to be worried about, jared kushner needs to be worried about, and a lot of people who are in the orbit of the president of the united states. i remember one famous quote. we should not have a president of the united states who is under federal investigation. well, you have a president and his family that are both under federal investigation. >> a white house official said today the president's press team is not coordinating with giuliani and what he says on behalf of the president's legal team. is that a problem considering the gravity of some of his statements? >> it's actually we're -- you'd have to worry about the judgment of the white house press team. rudy is wild. he's undisciplined. you have to understand he is not out there to make a classical legal case for the president. he is a public advocate. his job is to throw haymakers every day. we might gawk. we might scratch our heads. we might snicker, but he's succeeding. and the key mietric here is political. are robert mueller's numbers going up or are they going down? they're going down. this the first stage in a potential impeachment fight. the president's not going to be indicted. he's not going to be tried. if this goes further, it's going to be a political question over impeachment fought out in congress. >> but it's been political from the very beginning. if it were criminal, criminal investigations, a crime is committed and then an investigation commences. this is the opposite. >> that's not true. >> the crime that was committed is -- >> one at a time. >> this is an investigation in search of a crime, and that is totally -- >> that's not true. >> -- un-american and unjust. >> yes, it is true. >> amanda? >> i feel like we have to keep saying the basic thing, and that's the crime was that information was stolen from the clinton campaign. the question is did members of the trump campaign knowingly solicit that information for use in an election? and if that is true, that triggers all kinds of crimes. we're acting like this is just something the russians did. no, that is stolen information. it's like if someone stole a car and then you decided to take it for a joyride and say, oh, i didn't know it was stolen. you can't do that. >> the fbi or justice department would be more than empowered to investigate that. we don't need a special counsel. the reason the special counsel was triggered was for political reasons. >> because he fired james comey, which may be an obstruction of justice case. >> i feel like i'm in the twilight zone. this whole talking point about this not being a valid investigation, this being a witch hunt, i mean let's talk about all the people who have been indicted. you ask about where was the crime that was committed? let's talk about the people who pled guilty. >> you just can't say that -- >> and rick gates. >> and rick gates and papadopoulos. paul manafort, i was with paul manafort backstage at the rnc because he ran your -- he ran your convention. he was your campaign manager. this isn't somebody who was just incidental. >> and the crimes he's accused of -- >> let him finish. >> papadopoulos pled guilty. let me just give you facts because you're in hyperbole land. you have 13 russian nationals who have been charged with hacking our elections. so you can say what you want to say, but these are all facts. this is a real investigation with real serious consequences. >> we've got to take a break. we'll have more with steve and rich and everybody. we'll pick up the conversation, talk more about the president's new attacks on special counsel mueller. later, a live report on progress on the fire lines in california as crews work around the clock under some of the worst conditions imaginable. the pictures incredible. we'll be right back. can weather any weather. behr premium semi-transparent stain and sealer, overall #1 rated, weathers it all. find our most advanced formula exclusively at the home depot. sometimes a day at the ballpark is more than just a day at the ballpark. stadium pa : all military members stand and be recognized. sometimes fans cheer for those who wear a different uniform. no matter where or when you served, t-mobile stands ready to serve you. that's why we're providing half off family lines to all military. agent beekman was one step ahead of them.dits stole the lockbox from the wells fargo stagecoach, because he hid his customers' gold in a different box. and the bandits, well, they got rocks. we protected your money then and we're dedicated to helping protect it today. like alerting you to certain card activity we find suspicious. if it's not your purchase, we'll help you resolve it. it's a new day at wells fargo. but it's a lot like our first day. we're talking about rudy giuliani's defense in the russia probe as well as the president's ongoing attacks on robert mueller. the president tweeting is robert mueller ever going to release his conflicts of interest with respect to president trump. i turned him down to head the fbi one day of appointment. the president now saying that mueller has conflicts of interest. giuliani was press the on those conflicts today, wouldn't elaborate. i assume he's talking about conflicts about this golf membership stuff. >> right. >> giuliani said, i had a good idea what it is. it seems like the attempts to discredit mueller have gone from six to a 20 in a matter of days. >> they're using every means fair or foul to try to undermine the prosecutor, which is what happens in many highly politically charged cases across the united states. this is just very typical. it's not obstruction of justice. i vice president known any president except for maybe george w. bush in the fitzgerald case against scooter libby, who hasn't tried to undermine the prosecutor. so this is typical politics taken up to 11 because that's the level that donald trump is comfortable with on absolutely everything. it's just a version of what bill clinton did against ken starr and what, you know, george h.w. bush's team did against his special prosecutor investigating iran-contra. so this is typical washington politics. it's just where the volume and intensity is much hivgher than usual. >> the bottom line, the president himself still hasn't answered questions about the cohen trump, why the trump campaign lied about it, about the knowledge of the deal with ami and karen mcdougal, his response to the reporting that he knew about the trump tower meeting in advance. i mean should he answer those questions himself at some point? >> i do. i think he should address those. i think it would put a lot of these questions to rest. for instance, you mentioned the ami deal. i agree with what amanda said before the break that, by the way, of course hacking into american citizens and organizations, dnc, podesta, those sorts of things should be investigated. if mueller were only doing that, that would be very proper. but instead he's looking into nondisclosure agreements to women from ten years ago. i mean how does that have anything to do with russia? are we seeing karen mcdougal hacked the dnc? did american media hack podesta? there's no relevance. instead it's an open-ended investigation into donald trump's life to try to find something. why? to try to nullify our 2016 victory and to try to delegitimize this president because his enemies in media and on the hill and even within his own justice department have been hell-bent since the day he won on trying to delegitimize. >> questioning people's motive and what they think about trump is not a sound political or legal defense. i do think we should pay attention to one thing that did come out of the giuliani interview this morning that i thought was extremely curious. in addition to him saying that collusion is not a crime, he oddly said that trump was not physically present at the trump tower meeting. to me, that may be where giuliani was trying to draw a very fine line that trump may walk. i certainly think that warrants some more follow-up on what ehe meant by saying he was not physically present. >> it's very important about this meeting, there's no indication that it was anything other than a nothing-burger. the white whale in this case as you referred to before the break is some sort of conspiracy with the russians to commit a crime and hack these e-mails. so far we have zero, zero evidence of that. >> but the time line is certainly very suspicious, in which trump says he would preview a speech about hillary clinton that didn't materialize. then he continues to call on the russians to hack -- [ overlapping voices ] >> one at a time. >> nobody knows. i'm just saying the time line is very suspicious. that's why we're in the middle of an investigation. >> do you think he was openly sending signals to russian intelligence what to do with his speeches? >> i mean he literally -- >> he asked the russians to hack herr e-ma her e-mails. [ overlapping voices ] >> i didn't say it. he said it. roll the tape. >> why is it so hard? >> bakari, go ahead. >> why are people forgetting facts? the president of the united states when he was a candidate said, hack the 30,000 e-mails. he literally said that. not only that, but you have somebody who pled guilty. he was the former national security adviser. he was a campaign surrogate. michael flynn pled guilty to lying. you started in whitewater with the clinton investigation. you ended with a blue dress. that's how these investigations work. it's all fair game. >> all right. we got to end it there. we're seeing a different rudy giuliani certainly than after 9/11 when he helped unite the country as america's mayor. we'll trace his evolution, shall we say, when we continue. yours like you mix and match your flavors. so you get what you want, without paying for things you don't. number 6. i know. where do i put it? in my belly. 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"time" magazine named him person of the year. >> that's the kind of leadership we need in washington. that's why i'm running for president. >> reporter: giuliani failed in his own 2008 presidential bid, but in 2016 he was back on the campaign trail, playing surrogate to donald trump. >> and he will be the leader of the change we need. >> reporter: but this was not the same rudy giuliani. he's always been aggressive and unapologetic, but now giuliani was peddling outlandish conspiracy theories. in one, he insisted that hillary clinton had some mysterious illness. >> go online and put down hillary clinton illness. take a look at the videos for yourself. >> reporter: giuliani mocked clinton's leadership skills too with this disturbing display. >> he didn't look like hillary clinton with one of those long answ answers. >> reporter: what happened to the old rudy? it was such a head-scratcher, it prompted this politico headline. is rudy giuliani losing his mind? at one point on the trail, he even seemed to forget who attacked the u.s. on 9/11. >> under those eight years before obama came along, we didn't have any successful radical islamic terrorist attack in the united states. they all started when clinton and obama got into office. >> reporter: and later after beyonce paid tribute to black lives matter at a concert -- >> i ran the largest and best police department in the world, the new york city police department, and i saved more black lives than any of those people you saw onstage. >> reporter: whatever is behind this bizarre transformation, it seems to be just what donald trump wants. >> vote for donald trump for a safer america and for an america headed in a different direction. greatness! >> reporter: randi kaye, cnn, new york. >> for more on rudy's transformation, i want to bring in cnn chief political correspondent dana bash. dana, how different is rudy giuliani now from the person who was the mayor of new york, you know, who prosecuted the mob? >> well, his persona couldn't be any more different, right? i mean he was, as randi was saying, america's mayor. he was "time" person of the year. he was beloved by the most liberal of democrats in new york city and around the country and the most conservative of republicans. and since he joined the trump world, politically speaking, it's been very different. but i think we've become more used to seeing rudy giuliani in the sort of vein of donald trump as the ultimate protector, the ultimate loyalist, the ultimate defender. i mean he was pretty much the only guy who would go out and say anything good about donald trump after the "access hollywood" tape came out at the end of the 2016 campaign. that tells you a lot. >> i was talking to maggie haberman on friday night. she made the point that the people who get around president trump tend to take on his personality. do you think part of that is what giuliani is doing? >> maybe. and also he is not just sort of a casual friend or an acquaintance who just met donald trump. they've known each other quite well for decades. i mean if you think about the fact that giuliani's children, particularly his son, andrew, is somebody who got to know donald trump as a young kid and now andrew is working in the donald trump white house and actually gets along in a very personal way with the now president kind of explains a lot and tells you a lot. and, yeah, rudy giuliani has kind of become a trump whisperer. he has kind of rare latitude to go out and say things that he believes that the president will be okay with. a lot of times he okays conversations that he has with reporters or interviews that he does. but sometimes my sense in ta talking to him is that it doesn't have to get that specific because he knows what the president wants. and what the president wants right now is what giuliani is doing. and that's an attack dog. and that is no holds barred. he wanted to change direction. he wanted to take the gloves off with his -- with how he approached the mueller investigation and robert mueller himself, and that's what he's got. >> dana, thanks. >> thank you. coming up, the president again threatens a government shutdown if he doesn't get what he wants from congress on immigration. we'll hear from someone who worked in the trump white house until just ten days ago. ♪ ♪ ♪ let your perfect drive come together at the lincoln summer invitation sales event. get 0% apr on select 2018 lincoln models plus $1,000 bonus cash. with tripadvisor, finding your perfect hotel at the lowest price... is as easy as dates, deals, done! simply enter your destination and dates... and see all the hotels for your stay! tripadvisor searches over 200 booking sites... to show you the lowest prices... so you can get the best deal on the right hotel for you. dates, deals, done! tripadvisor. visit tripadvisor.com and pg&e has been a partner helping us to achieve that. we've helped the marine mammal center go solar, install electric vehicle charging stations, and become more energy efficient. pg&e has allowed us to be the most sustainable organization we can be. any time you help a customer, it's a really good feeling. it's especially so when it's a customer that's doing such good and important work for the environment. together, we're building a better california. the president's repeating his threat that he'd be willing to shut down the government if he doesn't get the wall he wants or funding for the wall and some other things on his immigration wish list. after tweeting about it over the weekend, the president said this today. >> if we don't get border security after many, many years of talk within the united states, i would have no problem doing a shutdown. it's time we had proper border security. we're the laughingstock of the world. >> joining me now is cnn's newest political commentator mark short, former white house director of legislative affairs who left the white house less than two weeks ago. thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> how likely do you think it is there actually would be a shutdown because right now the shutdown, unless there's a new spending bill, would be before the midterm? >> right. so i think in august the senate's going to stay in session and complete more of the appropriations bills but unlikely to finish all of them. it's been 22 years since congress actually completed appropriation bills on time. we're likely to face another continuing resolution in september. >> in order to get it past the midterms. >> exactly and to complete the appropriations process. at that point they'll give him more time and ultimately he'll probably have another december time frame. last year the president signed an omnibus. he doesn't want to have another $1.3 trillion spending bill plopped on his desk. >> the chance of shutting down before the midterms seems highly unlike. >> it seems unlikely but i do think the president is sincere about pushing for his border wall funding. it's something the democrats supported in 2006 with the secure fence acts. it's just become more politicized now. i think if you look at the plan the president's put forward by the career officers at customs and border patrol, in some cases these are fences that are see-through, and in some cases it's walls, but it's what they say they need to secure the border. so it's become a much more politicized issue when in fact there are career professionals saying this is what we need. democrats have supported it in the past -- >> they also want a larger deal on immigration issues. >> yeah. >> and see this as a way to negotiate it. >> right. >> you work so much with congress when you were at the white house. it does seem like i don't know if it's increasingly or at a certain point it seems like there's a lot of republicans on capitol hill who just ignore the president's tweets or statements and just plan accordingly to what they think should be done. do you see that happening because very quickly you had mcconnell coming out saying, look, there's not going to be a shutdown essentially. >> i think mcconnell's had a meeting with the president this week so i think he's on pretty safe ground giving that direction. i think again the question is the timing of when such an occurrence might happen. i'd say the biggest chance is when we started in the white house, i used to get calls from members of congress that would say, mark, it's exciting. we're here. we have control of the house, the senate, the white house. the agenda is great. can you just get the president to turn off his phone? over time what we now get is members of congress calling, saying, hey, mark, can we get the president to tweet this? you say they ignore his tweets but in reality more often than not we have members of congress calling and soliciting tweets on their behalf from the president of the united states. >> that's still not saying they love what he's tweeting out. he tweeted out that the threat from north korea was no longer. there's no longer a nuclear threat from north korea. now we have reporting that just tonight in "the washington post," north korea is actually moving forward on a weapons system. >> i think the president's pretty clear as to what's happening in north korea. i think he's got a great national security team and secretary of state pompeo, ambassador bolton, secretary mattis. those are great people surrounding him on those decisions. but i think on the tweeting, anderson, he found a way to make sure he could communicate with the american people directly. i think it's been a very effective tool for him. >> i want to ask you about john kelly. there was an article in politico. it's the one-year anniversary of john kelly taking over the office of chief of staff. politico ran this article. the headline was how john kelly became chief in name only. do you think that's fair? has he been marginalized? >> i don't think it's fair. i think it's hard to find anyone who has sacrificed more for this country not just personally but with his family than john kelly. the man is an american hero. i think that he has helped provide a lot of order to the white house that was missing prior to john kelly's arrival. >> that's certainly true. he certainly seemed to get people in their lanes more, had less people going in and out of oval office. does he still maintain the same level of oversight and power you think that he had eight months ago? >> i think that general kelly is revered within the white house. i think the reality is the president very much wants to be involved in all decisions. he's not going to be delegating that to any chief of staff. but i do think that characterization in politico was unfair. >> mark short, appreciate it. a deadly wildfire in northern california is so massive and hot, it's creating its own weather system. another hurdle in fighting it. we'll get the latest from redding, california, ahead. i's and hotels.com rewards me basically everywhere. so why am i sliding into this ski lodge with my mini horse? 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>> nick watt, appreciate it on the fire lines. just ahead a new book on the horizon. a source saying it gives a front row seat to the white house. the author bob woodward. what we know about the book, next. fruits and veggies are essential to your health, try new one a day with nature's medley. booking a flight doesn't have to be expensive. just go to priceline. it's the best place to book a flight a few days before my trip and still save up to 40%. just tap and go... for the best savings on flights, go to priceline. ♪ hawaii is in the middle of the pacific ocean. we're the most isolated population on the planet. ♪ hawaii is the first state in the u.s. to have 100% renewable energy goal. we're a very small electric utility. but, if we don't make this move we're going to have changes in our environment, and have a negative impact to hawaii's economy. ♪ verizon provided us a solution using smart sensors on their network that lets us collect near real time data on our power grid. (colton) this technology is helping us integrate rooftop solar, which is a very important element of getting us to our renewable energy goals. ♪ (shelee) if we can create our own energy, we can take care of this beautiful place that i grew up in. ♪ he has dozens of white house officials and firsthand sources who have been in these meetings with donald trump. they all spoke to him. they were all recorded. every interview was recorded, but don't make a mistake by that. they're not on the record. these are deep background. this is not a back of one deep throat. this is a book of dozens of deep throats, and they discussed everything from sort of explosive debates in the white house to really it's described as harrowing. >> is it a fear he found in the white house? i mean, i guess we don't know the answer. >> we will hear, but what we're -- it was not just interviews. these sources gave him documents. he got memos. notes. files. diaries. notes i'm told in donald trump's own hand. so i'm told it's very authoritative and very well documented. >> are some of the notes classified? do you know? >> we don't know yet, but this is what i would say. in the past people have given bob woodward classified documents. i wouldn't be surprised if some of these were classified. >> do we know that the fear stems from? >> it's actually a donald trump quote. the last time bob woodward interviewed him was in march, 2016. donald trump said real power is -- i don't even want to use the word, fear. and that's where it comes from. >> that's often leaders, you know, do they want to be loved or feared? >> do they want to be respected? >> right. >> but in his case, real power, fear. >> wow. well, i look forward to that. and that's coming out in the fall? >> six weeks from almost today.