Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20170518 04:00:00 :

Investigation of russian interference into the u. S. Election and other matters. Its up to mueller to decide the other matters, to include the firing of the fbi director. Michael flynn, a meeting between the fbi director and the president in the white house. Just to be clear, the fbi investigation thats been going on, that was under Director Comey, that continues and that is what mueller is overseeing . He has oversight over the entire probe as it were. Youre not going to stop any activity in the fbi anymore, youve got a whole team there, and thats something youve heard from the acting fbi director, as they search for a new director, that theyre continuing their work. I have spoke to people inside the bureau, but this is a very independentminded mueller. One other thing ill note. I have been talking to people around washington in reaction to this, yes, comeys out, if you Huge Development today. Just two days ago, White House Press secretary spicer says frankly theres no need for a Special Prosecutor. So what is their thinking tonight . Jim acosta joins us now. So whats the late word from the white house . Reporter its hard to imagine a worse 72 hours in President Trumps life. And what youre seeing tonight, anderson, is a very different President Trump, a very restrained President Trump, hes not talking about socalled judges as he did after the travel ban. Hes not threatening the former fbi director james comey as he did last week when he talked about tapes on twitter. Consider this very restrained statement coming from the president of the United States tonight on the tapping of bob mueller as Special Prosecutor, it says as i have stated many times a thorough investigation will confirm what we already know, there was no collusion between my campaign and any foreign entity. I look forward to this matter concluding quickly. In the meantime, i will never stop fighting for the people and issues that matter most to the future of our country. An incredible turn of events when you consider the last week. Remember the white house put out a same that essentially laid some of the responsibility for the Firing Of Comey on Rod Rosenstein and you see Rod Rosenstein tapping bob mueller to be the Special Prosecutor. Something that no administration wants to see happen at fi stage, let alone 150 days into a presidency. Did rosenstein give a heads up to Attorney General Sessions . From what we understand, there was not much of a heads up before this announcement came down, from what i understand from talking to administration officials, Rod Rosenstein signed this order naming bob mueller as Special Prosecutor. White House Counsel don mcgahn was notified and very soon after that informed the president of the United States that there was a Special Prosecutor looking how important is this . Its enormously important, but its also i think a rare moment of unanimity and relief. Because there is literally no more respected person in american Law Enforcement than bob mueller. When you look at his experience, 12 years as the fbi director. Head of the Criminal Division in the Justice Department. U. S. Attorney in boston. U. S. Attorney in san francisco. Appointed mostly by republicans, but occasionally by democrats, someone who has a reputation for integrity, for intelligence, for fairness. This is someone that both sides can trust. However it does mean that this is going to be a very serious and almost certainly lengthy investigation which cannot be good news to the white house. The president saying hes looking forward to this getting done quickly. Its not going to get done quickly. Best of luck with that. Dana you have new reporting on how this decision came about. What im told from a senior republican source, Rod Rosenstein, and i think this is quite obvious based on the decision, and the bombshell we have tonight, the Special Prosecutor, was more and more agitated with the white houses actions and being put in the position that he had been put in, to the point where he was so angry, according to the source who was in contact with rosenstein, that he was ready to, quote, pack his bags, last week. With this decision, particularly on the heels of yesterday and the comey memo becoming public, and more importantly the content allegedly of the comey memo, this is basically the perspective of this republican source, throwing donald trump overboard. Now were talking about politically, and maybe even legally depending on how this goes. Wanting to separate himself, obviously, from this and say, look, you guys are on your own and youre going to have this guy who has an impeccable reputation and impeccable experience and so forth obviously in a bipartisan way to do this investigation. The one other thing that this source says and well see if this source comes to bear, that the next big move on capitol hill and the next big public event was supposed to be james comey going to capitol hill testifying publicly. Is that going to happen . It doesnt look like it. It is possible. But this source says probably what bob mueller will do is shut it down, meaning he will take stock of everything, including james comeys memos, including what james comey has to say, and perhaps prevent him or ask him, his good friend james comey, not to go testify. Hes a private citizen now so he can kind of do what he wants. Evan perez, who obviously is very steeped in these things, also notes if that happens, if james comey says huhuh, im not going to do it. Thats another bad news sign for the white house which means that bob mueller is going to incorporate the comey memo and the comey conversation with the president into his investigation. If i could just add one point to that. Comey almost certainly, when receiving a request to testify in front of congress, will go to his friend bob mueller and say look, what do you want me to do . What can i do that will jeopardize your investigation the least . And mueller, starting from scratch is almost certainly going to say, hold on, dont do anything, let me get my hands around this problem and then maybe well see if its okay to testify. Gloria, what do you make of this development . Well, i think that it gives a lot of people some Breathing Room on capitol hill, the democrats have been calling for a Special Counsel, now they have a Special Counsel whom they respect and who is respected on both sides of the aisle. I was talking to a senior seener democratic aide who said to me, its amazing to watch republicans on the Special Counsel go from we dont need one to hes amazing. So the republicans are applaud thing to a great degree because now they can go home to their constituents, they can say they are not ducking an investigation. They can say the Special Counsel is going to handle this and we need to get back to the peoples business. I think mueller is an impeccable choice. I think people on the hill believe that he is. I think they are going to want to conduct their own investigations and jeffrey knows a lot about this because he was involved in iran contra and theyre not going to be happy if Comey Doesnt Want to testify, to be honest, because theyre going to want to continue their investigation, the democrats, that is, and theyre going to want to continue to go out on their own so you may see a bit of conflict there. In your views, is this a good move . First of all its another selfinflicted wound, when the president blamed Rod Rosenstein for the decision to fire comey and Rod Rosenstein responded the way dana said he did. He made himself unfireable and became the most powerful person in the Justice Department. I would say this is a mixed blessing. For the american public, its not such a good thing, we probably wont learn anything from this investigation, its going to be secret, we will never hear from a witness, in the end we will either hear no indictment or an indictment. To the extent that we want to know what really went on, an independent Investigation Commission of the kind of 9 11 or the challenger, would have been better for the american public. And i think President Trump could have avoided a Special Prosecutor if he had pressed for an independent commission earlier. Some democrats still want an independent commission. Is that possible . Absolutely. As gloria was saying earlier, the fact that you have a congressional investigation and a Law Enforcement investigation at the same time can generate controversy and conflict. The most dramatic example being the issue of immunity. Congressional committees want to get people to testify, so they want to give out immunity. Law enforcement, they dont want to give immunity, and the most dramatic example of this conflict came involved in the investigation i was involved in iran contra, where John Poin Decisioner and oliver north were given immunity. We in the Lawrence Walsh investigation prosecuted them any way. They were convicted but norths conviction was overturned by the Appeals Court because the immunity was said to trump the conviction. That sort of conflict is very much possible. David axelrod, can you envision any scenario in which much or his surrogates criticize this . Having embraced rosenstein on the decision to fire the fbi director, i dont think hes going to hes boxed, hes boxed. One interesting thing about this, if the president truly believes what he said in his statement that his campaign and his associate also be cleared by such an investigation, then he should welcome this. Because if it had been the Justice Department that issued that statement, i think there would be broad skepticism about it. Bob mueller, if he were to conclude that there were no laws broken, that there was no such involvement, carries much greater credibility. But on this point of the commission, there are going to be many, Many Democrats who are going to continue to push for this independent commission. Because as he said, this process is going to be conducted in secret. And if this is a way of blocking the independent commission, that the country will never get the full picture of what happened. Theres another important reason too, its very likely no crimes occurred. If there was contact between the russians and the administration, it might be a terrible, terrible thing, but it wouldnt be a crime. So mueller wouldnt have jurisdiction to look into that. He cant generally look into things that might be politically or moralry bad. He is focused. He is ahab, looking at that white male. He gets the whale or he doesnt, but he looks at the entire sea scape. Whats going for the country as an independent commission could possibly be, as David Axelrod is saying, they want it to happen. Republicans right now are Running Congress and they are breathing the biggest sigh of relief, i think we can hear it all the way up here in new york, because they feel that this is a big out for them. Because theyre going to take it out of The Public Eye . Out of The Public Eye, and they hope what it means now is when they go home and get beaten up about, you know, Whats Going On, they can say you know what . Its in the hands of a very well respected prosecutor, bob mueller and i dont know anything about it, i cant talk about it. The investigations arent over, so they are going to continue to investigate and hold hearings, so its not going to go completely underground. It wont go underground, but it wont be broadened. One thing about these congressional investigations, theyre not very well resourced. Youve got on the house side, seven parttime staff, working parttime on this issue, i think its the same on the senate side. The Special Counsel will be fully resourced to pursue this investigation and thats one reason why there was a lot of interest in seeing a Special Counsel appointed. Phil mudd, you know Robert Mueller. What do you make of this appointment . Boy, on a personal and professional level, this is profound for me, i had an office, Director Mueller was down the hall, i must have been involved in 1,000, 2,000 meet wgs him. I never saw anybody like him, ever. For any american who looks for integrity judgment, i saw him do personnel, political investigations that involved corruption, i watched him make decisions in thousands of cases, when you had to decide whether to arrest a kid who was a potential Suicide Bomber or let the investigation go. Anderson, i dont know what to say. I never saw anything like it. Judgment, character, integrity, humility. If you have a kid and youve despaired that theres not a hero in america, Robert Mueller is it. Jeff, i heard you talk about leaks and this is something the president and republicans have been focusing on. Its not likely that there would be a tremendous amount of leaks coming out of this office. Despite our best efforts. We will try, and the fbi will still be involved and the fbi is many what leakier organization than anything affiliated with mueller himself. But certainly the odds overwhelmingly are that this investigation will be tight as a drum, and we will not know. You can see whos walking into a Grand Jury Room and whos walking out. You can know whos testifying. Defense lawyers whose clients are subpoenaed can talk about it, and they often do. But in terms of knowing Whats Going On in this investigation there will be an fbi director, how do they Work Together, who oversees who and can the Special Counsel direct fbi agents to do things . The way it works, mueller will be in charge of the investigation. He will go to the fbi and say i need the following resources, i need 10 agents, and the fbi will almost certainly say well give you what you want. But the fbi director doesnt work for bob mueller. Mueller will be in charge of the investigate shub. Investigation. But he can draw on the resources of the fbi, and does he have his own staff . The fbi should work for bob mueller, lets be clear. Once j. Edgar hoover was exposed as the thug that he was, the fbi works for the Justice Department. Yes, he has an independent statue 10year term. Theyre not supposed to do investigations generally of potential criminal conduct. Except under the supervision of u. S. Attorneys or Justice Department attorneys and the Special Counsel is no different from any other prosecutor in the Justice Department, except hes not in the line of authority, hes been appointed specially, but he uses the same kinds of resources. So i think we can expect the same from him. Now remember that ten years ago, if they asked everybody about his predecessor, comey, we would have heard the same praise, he was boy scout, he was fantastic, he was the greatest at this. But he succumbed to power. And i think the difference is that the new director has learned a lesson. Hes not going to do what the old director did, although the temptations are there to do it. To be clear, he will also hire lawyers who will be the prosecutors and hes already hired two from his firm. All three of them have resigned from the firm. Heres a question that i have, which is that the congressional committees have a different job. They want to present this to the American People who are really concerned about whether there was collusion, the russia hack and all the things that we have been writing about and talking about for these past months. The Special Counsel wants to figure out whether any crimes were committed. He wants to prosecute, and again, to jeffrey, this is what happened with Lawrence Walsh and the congressional committees on iran contra. So you have people with kind of different goals, because i think what you see, particularly from the democrats in the congress is they want to shine the light on this, one way or another, and a prosecutor really just wants to prosecute and doesnt want to shine the light unless it will help him in his prosecution. The Special Counsel is focusing on the legality, not the moral or doing something political inappropriate or doesnt reach a legal threshold. The leak about the israeli spy is almost certainly not a crime. Now there is a crime, the people who leaked that information to the Director Comey<\/a>, that continues and that is what mueller is overseeing . He has oversight over the entire probe as it were. Youre not going to stop any activity in the fbi anymore, youve got a whole team there, and thats something youve heard from the acting fbi director, as they search for a new director, that theyre continuing their work. I have spoke to people inside the bureau, but this is a very independentminded mueller. One other thing ill note. I have been talking to people around washington in reaction to this, yes, comeys out, if you\r Huge Development<\/a> today. Just two days ago, White House Press<\/a> secretary spicer says frankly theres no need for a Special Prosecutor<\/a>. So what is their thinking tonight . Jim acosta joins us now. So whats the late word from the white house . Reporter its hard to imagine a worse 72 hours in President Trump<\/a>s life. And what youre seeing tonight, anderson, is a very different President Trump<\/a>, a very restrained President Trump<\/a>, hes not talking about socalled judges as he did after the travel ban. Hes not threatening the former fbi director james comey as he did last week when he talked about tapes on twitter. Consider this very restrained statement coming from the president of the United States<\/a> tonight on the tapping of bob mueller as Special Prosecutor<\/a>, it says as i have stated many times a thorough investigation will confirm what we already know, there was no collusion between my campaign and any foreign entity. I look forward to this matter concluding quickly. In the meantime, i will never stop fighting for the people and issues that matter most to the future of our country. An incredible turn of events when you consider the last week. Remember the white house put out a same that essentially laid some of the responsibility for the Firing Of Comey<\/a> on Rod Rosenstein<\/a> and you see Rod Rosenstein<\/a> tapping bob mueller to be the Special Prosecutor<\/a>. Something that no administration wants to see happen at fi stage, let alone 150 days into a presidency. Did rosenstein give a heads up to Attorney General Sessions<\/a> . From what we understand, there was not much of a heads up before this announcement came down, from what i understand from talking to administration officials, Rod Rosenstein<\/a> signed this order naming bob mueller as Special Prosecutor<\/a>. White House Counsel<\/a> don mcgahn was notified and very soon after that informed the president of the United States<\/a> that there was a Special Prosecutor<\/a> looking\rhow important is this . Its enormously important, but its also i think a rare moment of unanimity and relief. Because there is literally no more respected person in american Law Enforcement<\/a> than bob mueller. When you look at his experience, 12 years as the fbi director. Head of the Criminal Division<\/a> in the Justice Department<\/a>. U. S. Attorney in boston. U. S. Attorney in san francisco. Appointed mostly by republicans, but occasionally by democrats, someone who has a reputation for integrity, for intelligence, for fairness. This is someone that both sides can trust. However it does mean that this is going to be a very serious and almost certainly lengthy investigation which cannot be good news to the white house. The president saying hes looking forward to this getting done quickly. Its not going to get done quickly. Best of luck with that. Dana you have new reporting on how this decision came about. What im told from a senior\rrepublican source, Rod Rosenstein<\/a>, and i think this is quite obvious based on the decision, and the bombshell we have tonight, the Special Prosecutor<\/a>, was more and more agitated with the white houses actions and being put in the position that he had been put in, to the point where he was so angry, according to the source who was in contact with rosenstein, that he was ready to, quote, pack his bags, last week. With this decision, particularly on the heels of yesterday and the comey memo becoming public, and more importantly the content allegedly of the comey memo, this is basically the perspective of this republican source, throwing donald trump overboard. Now were talking about politically, and maybe even legally depending on how this goes. Wanting to separate himself, obviously, from this and say, look, you guys are on your own and youre going to have this guy who has an impeccable reputation and impeccable experience and so forth obviously in a bipartisan way to do this investigation. The one other thing that this source says and well see if this source comes to bear, that the next big move on capitol hill and the next big public event was supposed to be james comey going to capitol hill testifying publicly. Is that going to happen . It doesnt look like it. It is possible. But this source says probably what bob mueller will do is shut it down, meaning he will take stock of everything, including james comeys memos, including what james comey has to say, and perhaps prevent him or ask him, his good friend james comey, not to go testify. Hes a private citizen now so he can kind of do what he wants. Evan perez, who obviously is very steeped in these things, also notes if that happens, if james comey says huhuh, im not going to do it. Thats another bad news sign for the white house which means that bob mueller is going to incorporate the comey memo and\rthe comey conversation with the president into his investigation. If i could just add one point to that. Comey almost certainly, when receiving a request to testify in front of congress, will go to his friend bob mueller and say look, what do you want me to do . What can i do that will jeopardize your investigation the least . And mueller, starting from scratch is almost certainly going to say, hold on, dont do anything, let me get my hands around this problem and then maybe well see if its okay to testify. Gloria, what do you make of this development . Well, i think that it gives a lot of people some Breathing Room<\/a> on capitol hill, the democrats have been calling for a Special Counsel<\/a>, now they have a Special Counsel<\/a> whom they respect and who is respected on both sides of the aisle. I was talking to a senior\rseener democratic aide who said to me, its amazing to watch republicans on the Special Counsel<\/a> go from we dont need one to hes amazing. So the republicans are applaud thing to a great degree because now they can go home to their constituents, they can say they are not ducking an investigation. They can say the Special Counsel<\/a> is going to handle this and we need to get back to the peoples business. I think mueller is an impeccable choice. I think people on the hill believe that he is. I think they are going to want to conduct their own investigations and jeffrey knows a lot about this because he was involved in iran contra and theyre not going to be happy if Comey Doesnt Want<\/a> to testify, to be honest, because theyre going to want to continue their investigation, the democrats, that is, and theyre going to want to continue to go out on their own so you may see a bit of conflict there. In your views, is this a good move . First of all its another selfinflicted wound, when the\rpresident blamed Rod Rosenstein<\/a> for the decision to fire comey and Rod Rosenstein<\/a> responded the way dana said he did. He made himself unfireable and became the most powerful person in the Justice Department<\/a>. I would say this is a mixed blessing. For the american public, its not such a good thing, we probably wont learn anything from this investigation, its going to be secret, we will never hear from a witness, in the end we will either hear no indictment or an indictment. To the extent that we want to know what really went on, an independent Investigation Commission<\/a> of the kind of 9 11 or the challenger, would have been better for the american public. And i think President Trump<\/a> could have avoided a Special Prosecutor<\/a> if he had pressed for an independent commission earlier. Some democrats still want an independent commission. Is that possible . Absolutely. As gloria was saying earlier, the fact that you have a congressional investigation and a Law Enforcement<\/a> investigation at the same time can generate controversy and conflict. The most dramatic example being the issue of immunity. Congressional committees want to get people to testify, so they want to give out immunity. Law enforcement, they dont want to give immunity, and the most dramatic example of this conflict came involved in the investigation i was involved in iran contra, where John Poin Decisioner<\/a> and oliver north were given immunity. We in the Lawrence Walsh<\/a> investigation prosecuted them any way. They were convicted but norths conviction was overturned by the Appeals Court<\/a> because the immunity was said to trump the conviction. That sort of conflict is very much possible. David axelrod, can you envision any scenario in which much or his surrogates criticize\rthis . Having embraced rosenstein on the decision to fire the fbi director, i dont think hes going to hes boxed, hes boxed. One interesting thing about this, if the president truly believes what he said in his statement that his campaign and his associate also be cleared by such an investigation, then he should welcome this. Because if it had been the Justice Department<\/a> that issued that statement, i think there would be broad skepticism about it. Bob mueller, if he were to conclude that there were no laws broken, that there was no such involvement, carries much greater credibility. But on this point of the commission, there are going to be many, Many Democrats<\/a> who are going to continue to push for this independent commission. Because as he said, this process is going to be conducted in secret. And if this is a way of blocking the independent commission, that the country will never get the full picture of what happened. Theres another important reason too, its very likely no crimes occurred. If there was contact between the russians and the administration, it might be a terrible, terrible thing, but it wouldnt be a crime. So mueller wouldnt have jurisdiction to look into that. He cant generally look into things that might be politically or moralry bad. He is focused. He is ahab, looking at that white male. He gets the whale or he doesnt, but he looks at the entire sea scape. Whats going for the country as an independent commission could possibly be, as David Axelrod<\/a> is saying, they want it to happen. Republicans right now are Running Congress<\/a> and they are breathing the biggest sigh of relief, i think we can hear it\rall the way up here in new york, because they feel that this is a big out for them. Because theyre going to take it out of The Public Eye<\/a> . Out of The Public Eye<\/a>, and they hope what it means now is when they go home and get beaten up about, you know, Whats Going On<\/a>, they can say you know what . Its in the hands of a very well respected prosecutor, bob mueller and i dont know anything about it, i cant talk about it. The investigations arent over, so they are going to continue to investigate and hold hearings, so its not going to go completely underground. It wont go underground, but it wont be broadened. One thing about these congressional investigations, theyre not very well resourced. Youve got on the house side, seven parttime staff, working parttime on this issue, i think its the same on the senate side. The Special Counsel<\/a> will be fully resourced to pursue this investigation and thats one reason why there was a lot of interest in seeing a Special Counsel<\/a> appointed. Phil mudd, you know Robert Mueller<\/a>. What do you make of this appointment . Boy, on a personal and professional level, this is profound for me, i had an office, Director Mueller<\/a> was down the hall, i must have been involved in 1,000, 2,000 meet wgs him. I never saw anybody like him, ever. For any american who looks for integrity judgment, i saw him do personnel, political investigations that involved corruption, i watched him make decisions in thousands of cases, when you had to decide whether to arrest a kid who was a potential Suicide Bomber<\/a> or let the investigation go. Anderson, i dont know what to say. I never saw anything like it. Judgment, character, integrity, humility. If you have a kid and youve\rdespaired that theres not a hero in america, Robert Mueller<\/a> is it. Jeff, i heard you talk about leaks and this is something the president and republicans have been focusing on. Its not likely that there would be a tremendous amount of leaks coming out of this office. Despite our best efforts. We will try, and the fbi will still be involved and the fbi is many what leakier organization than anything affiliated with mueller himself. But certainly the odds overwhelmingly are that this investigation will be tight as a drum, and we will not know. You can see whos walking into a Grand Jury Room<\/a> and whos walking out. You can know whos testifying. Defense lawyers whose clients are subpoenaed can talk about it, and they often do. But in terms of knowing Whats Going On<\/a> in this investigation there will be an fbi\rdirector, how do they Work Together<\/a>, who oversees who and can the Special Counsel<\/a> direct fbi agents to do things . The way it works, mueller will be in charge of the investigation. He will go to the fbi and say i need the following resources, i need 10 agents, and the fbi will almost certainly say well give you what you want. But the fbi director doesnt work for bob mueller. Mueller will be in charge of the investigate shub. Investigation. But he can draw on the resources of the fbi, and does he have his own staff . The fbi should work for bob mueller, lets be clear. Once j. Edgar hoover was exposed as the thug that he was, the fbi works for the Justice Department<\/a>. Yes, he has an independent statue 10year term. Theyre not supposed to do investigations generally of potential criminal conduct. Except under the supervision of u. S. Attorneys or Justice Department<\/a> attorneys and the Special Counsel<\/a> is no different from any other prosecutor in the Justice Department<\/a>, except hes not in the line of authority, hes been appointed specially, but he uses the same kinds of resources. So i think we can expect the same from him. Now remember that ten years ago, if they asked everybody about his predecessor, comey, we would have heard the same praise, he was boy scout, he was fantastic, he was the greatest at this. But he succumbed to power. And i think the difference is that the new director has learned a lesson. Hes not going to do what the old director did, although the temptations are there to do it. To be clear, he will also hire lawyers who will be the prosecutors and hes already hired two from his firm. All three of them have resigned from the firm. Heres a question that i have, which is that the congressional committees have a different job. They want to present this to the American People<\/a> who are really concerned about whether there was collusion, the russia hack and all the things that we have been writing about and talking about for these past months. The Special Counsel<\/a> wants to figure out whether any crimes were committed. He wants to prosecute, and again, to jeffrey, this is what happened with Lawrence Walsh<\/a> and the congressional committees on iran contra. So you have people with kind of different goals, because i think what you see, particularly from the democrats in the congress is they want to shine the light on this, one way or another, and a prosecutor really just wants to prosecute and doesnt want to shine the light unless it will help him in his prosecution. The Special Counsel<\/a> is focusing on the legality, not the moral or doing something political inappropriate or doesnt reach a legal threshold. The leak about the israeli spy is almost certainly not a crime. Now there is a crime, the people who leaked that information to the Washington Post<\/a> committed a serious felony. And by the way, theyre the ones who told isis that israel has a spy in their midst. That didnt happen from donald trump. He told the russians, but it is the leaker whos being praised all over the place, who is a felon, a criminal and should go to jail, who is the villain of this piece. And i hope that the new prosecutor will look into that leak. Thats more serious than the leak that occurred if the oval office. I want to bring in laura jared, who was in the room at the Justice Department<\/a> when all this came down today. Laura, what was it like . Reporter it was a pretty fast moving turn of events, the reporters here at the Justice Department<\/a> were gathered very swiftly just after 5 00, we were told to meet for a briefing. Given about 30 minutes notice,\rwe were given in that briefing the statements from the Attorney General<\/a>, Rod Rosenstein<\/a>, as well the sat statute to understand the background. And the order from the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general himself. I want to read to you just a little bit from his statement so you can understand the context here. He says in part, my decision is not a finding that crimes have been committed or that any prosecution is warranted. I have made no such determination, what i have determined is that based upon the unique circumstances, the Public Interest<\/a> requires me to place this investigation under the authority of a person who exercises a degree of independence from the normal chain of command and obviously it is Rod Rosenstein<\/a> making this decision because the Attorney General<\/a> Jeff Sessions<\/a> recused from anything related to the russia investigation, the Trump Campaign<\/a>, the transition, back in march. So this was up to the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general to make this decision. Were also learning a little bit\rabout the chain of events that went on this afternoon. Im told by a source that the Deputy Attorney<\/a> Generals Office<\/a> called the white House Counsel<\/a>s office, did not give them a heads up but called them after this order was signed and Attorney General<\/a> Jeff Sessions<\/a> was also informed of this decision after the order was signed, anderson. Fascinating, David Axelrod<\/a>, one of the panelists earlier was saying this is kind of a situation of trumps making, by basically pointing to Rod Rosenstein<\/a> as the reason why the fbi director was fired, then clearly Rod Rosenstein<\/a> was angry, whether he threatened to resign or ready to back his bags, he denied that he threatened to resign, but he seemed annoyed by that. Then the white house changed their tune. Now its Rod Rosenstein<\/a> who is going for the Special Counsel<\/a>. Yeah, and i dont know him. So im not going to sit here and say that out of spite he decided\rthat he would take this step. But he clearly has felt the brunt of this, for a week hes been consulting with, hes been talking to members of congress and hearing from others and reading and he understands the atmospherics, so when he became the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general, he was praised by both parties as somebody who was independent. He understands the situation. What he did today was very much about protecting his integrity and the integrity of the Justice Department<\/a>. I just, anderson, want to respond to one thing that Professor Dershowitz<\/a> said, it struck me as i was listening to him, that had the Washington Post<\/a> not disclosed the fact of sally yates meeting with the white House Counsel<\/a> over general flynn, we dont know if he would have ever have been removed as National Security<\/a> advisor. It was only after it became\rpublic that the president took action on it. Apparently it was only after it became public that the Vice President<\/a> knew he had been lied to. So i understand the sensitivity of leaks and the administration i worked for was tough on leaks for sure. But theres no doubt that some of these leaks have shown a bright light in places where light was very much needed. I have no problem with the Washington Post<\/a> publishing it or the Times Publishing<\/a> it. I do have problems with the people who work for the National Security<\/a> agencies leaking confidential information that may cost lives, that may make it much more difficult to detect laptops. Remember the only way isis got this information is through the leak. And you have to be very careful when you leak, because youre taking the law into your own hands. You may not have all the information and know everything, we are still a country of laws and we have to make you cant say definitively what russia would have done with the information. Theyre not giving it to isis. Theyre not on talking terms. What about iran . They have done things that are actually helpful to syria. Its not as if Bashar Al Assad<\/a> is fighting a war against isis. He released david is saying hes allied with iran. Thats very speculative. We know the first Public Disclosure<\/a> of it came from the leaks from within the National Security<\/a> agencies and those leaks should be plugged. Can we just come back to the broader question of the president and his actions and how his actions have consequences . I am not defending the leak or anything of the sort. I just want to point out what many people inside the white house and outside think caused this, which is the original donald trump attack of the Intelligence Community<\/a> way back when, that really stuck in their craw, and he was warned, i can\rtell you, i know somebody who told this, you dont mess with the intense communities, because they have ways of getting back to you. It got back to intelligence committees that was then leaked to the Washington Post<\/a>. Can i answer one question . Can bob mueller as Special Counsel<\/a> be fired . The answer is yes, by President Trump<\/a>. Thats different from the independent counsel law which has since expired and its a parallel situation to what happened under watergate. Which is when president reagan wound up demanding the firing of archibald cox, im sorry, nixon. What did i say . Reagan. When nixon demanded the firing of cox, that became the saturday night massacre. But he couldnt fire him, only the Attorney General<\/a> could fire him and the Attorney General<\/a> quit, the deputy quit and Robert Bourke<\/a> came to the rescue of the president. And he fired him. But mueller can be fired by trump. So thats just something he could be fired but that would be a catastrophic decision that would have made the firing of the fbi director look like a small event. You would hope the president would learn something. He benefited nothing at all from the Firing Of Comey<\/a>. No benefit came. Dplo if youre sitting in the white house tonight and you want to think about the things donald trump has done to himself, you can talk about the Firing Of Comey<\/a> and start with that and you can talk about his tweets where he threatened comey with the existence of socalled tapes. And reporting at cnn has said that as of last friday, rosenstein was not inclined to appoint a Special Counsel<\/a>. So what happened between last friday and tonight . What happened is donald trump. And we have seen him be quiet on twitter, because perhaps on the advice of counsel. And im assuming now that hes getting lawyered up, if he isnt already, that after donald trump started talking about the tapes, after we learned about, you know, and then we learned about the comey memo, et cetera, i think that you read that, if youre Rod Rosenstein<\/a> and you think this is getting out of control. And at a certain point, you decide there is nothing else you can do, other than the big thing that you really didnt want to do, because we know how long and wieldy these investigations can get, but he did do what he didnt want to do which is appoint a Special Counsel<\/a>. There are a lot of people who would like to hear from Director Comey<\/a> about the notes he was taking about President Trump<\/a>, we\rmay not have that opportunity unless he is willing to testify and come forward. I do think he should testify, but i think congress is going to blow this. Gloria pointed this out, people are not focusing on the criticali criticality, the difference of what Director Mueller<\/a> will do. Hes looking backwards whether someone committed a crime that merits indictment by the Justice Department<\/a>. The congress should be looking forwards, how do we protect the next elections, how do we talk about russias cyber intrusions, how that implicated moscow in the previous election and look forward to protecting ourselves in the next election. I think he will be a fine witness. I think if he goes down with the congress, theyre going to enmesh themselves into what happened in Director Mueller<\/a>s investigation. They cant separate out we just lost the Satellite Link<\/a> up. I want to expand on something dana talk about earlier about hearing a giant sigh of relief on capitol hill as lawmakers\rreacted to the naming of Robert Mueller<\/a>. A lot of republicans have been saying there was no need for a Special Counsel<\/a> or a prosecutor, what are you hearing tonight . Reporter anderson its getting harder and harder for republicans to defend President Trump<\/a> in light of all of these revelations that continue to come up. Particularly in light of the james comey memo suggesting the president tried to interfere in that Michael Flynn<\/a> investigation. Today, there was a softening among some republicans in their opposition to a Special Prosecutor<\/a>. And a lot even the members of the leadership are raising concerns about the comey memo, say thing needs to be some investigation to get to the facts. So tonight there is a bit of a sigh of relief, take a listen. Do you think the president was trying to obstruct justice in any way . Its hard for me to say anything on that, we want to gets more information, thats obviously a pretty brazen and big charge, but we deserve the answers to this and i think through an investigation, people need to understand its going to\rtake some time to get this set up, but we need answers, i look forward to comeys testimony and any other information we can get. Are you concerned about this latest comey memo . Of course. I want to get the facts. Thats what we need to do. Reporter anderson, cornyn also praising the appointment of Robert Mueller<\/a> as Special Prosecutor<\/a>. He thinks that a Joe Lieberman<\/a> were to get the nomination, he would get 100 votes. Democrats are not there yet, but i am told by democratic sources tonight that its increasingly likely that theyll allow an fbi director nominee to go along without a major fight, depending on who that person is, because they had said they wanted a Special Prosecutor<\/a> named before they agreed to move forward on an fbi director nominee. So perhaps one fight averted. There are multiple investigations that we have been talking about in congress on russian interference, what\rhappens to them on the Special Counsel<\/a>, do they continue on . Because theres a number of them. Reporter they will continue on but the question is what happens, because there is a fair amount of Information Sharing<\/a> between the Intelligence Community<\/a> and these committees on capitol hill in order to move forward. How will the new Special Counsel<\/a> deal with these investigations on capitol hill. We dont know that yet, the Senate Intelligence<\/a> Committee Leaders<\/a> issued a statement tonight saying they expect to have a back and forth with Robert Mueller<\/a>. I think well get an indication tomorrow when Rod Rosenstein<\/a> briefs the senate about what happened here, and im told that democrats had planned in a Strategy Session<\/a> to pressure rosenstein to name a Special Prosecutor<\/a>. Now that he has, that session tomorrow could be a little less contentious. The appointment of former fbi director and respected lawyer Robert Mueller<\/a> as a Special Counsel<\/a> is a positive\rdevelopment and will provide some certainty for the American People<\/a> that the investigation will proceed fairly. They go on to say after the bombshell reporting last night that the president had told Director Comey<\/a> or suggested Director Comey<\/a> couldnt give Michael Flynn<\/a> a break, many will want to know, did that in fact happen . And the only way they will know if that in fact happened, unless it is so egregious and it was obstruction of justice and theres criminality there, the only way they would know it happened would be open hearings. Thats right. And im still struggling with the word deconflick shun. Ive never heard that word before in my life. Public information will be disclosed, i dont think is quite as settled as alan does. It is possible that at the conclusion of muellers investigation, he could file a public report. The independent counsel law, which Kenneth Starr<\/a> filed a report, Lawrence Welch<\/a> filed a report on iran contra. It is possible that he could file a report based on his investigation. U. S. Attorneys have been much criticized for doing that. The job is to indict or not to indict. And what im concerned about, is that mueller has so much credibility, he may actually tell some of these congressional committees, please, limit your investigation, dont mess around with our investigation. Dont people have the right to know if the president of the United States<\/a> tried to stop an investigation . I think they do. And that is why even though it has the potential to really hurt a president in their own party, republicans, who run these key committees on capitol hill, particularly in the senate, were trying to get james comey and still are trying to get james comey to testify in public, and the one thing we should underscore is how close james comey is to Robert Mueller<\/a>, and the fact that people like Lindsey Graham<\/a> and the Judiciary Committee<\/a> were not able to set a date with james comey. And then suddenly poof, heres Robert Mueller<\/a> as a Special Counsel<\/a>. Makes you wonder if there was a connection. This date back in 1973, was the first public hearing of the Senate Hearing<\/a> on the president yalt president ial campaign hearings. Joining me now, 44 years later\rto the day, two people who were major figures in watergate, Carl Burnstein<\/a> and john dean. As someone who worked in a white house that was under siege and investigated by Special Counsel<\/a>, what do you imagine the mood is like in the west wing . I would imagine its not a very happy mood tonight. During watergate, that Nixon White House<\/a> was highly compartmentalized, need to know, and work went on when other sections were more obsessed than those directly affected by investigations. So it probably in the Trump White House<\/a> isnt quite that smooth. Theyre still working out their staffing and its this has happened very early in their presidency, so im sure its a real ripple going through the operation. People in the white house, do they now see the Special Counsel<\/a> as the enemy . I mean is that how he was viewed back in watergate . He wasnt to me. He probably was to some. Because while nixon didnt want a Special Counsel<\/a>, he actually threw some names out and tried to influence it. I left before the Special Counsel<\/a> was appointed and so i wasnt really there. Carl actually covered the final days pretty well in his book. So carl, a, what about that, and also you heard the response from the white house, kind of measured although defined statement from President Trump<\/a> tonight. Has this whole thing been put back on the rails for the time being . Whats happened is that this country has gotten through a moment of intense danger and pulled back from a precipice, because the president of the United States<\/a> has been out of control and talking in a way of defying and demeaning the rule of law. And hes now constrained by the rule of law. So this is an immense event, and it occurred because Rod Rosenstein<\/a>, who had been\rmanipulated by the president , said enough. This cannot be. He tried to manipulate me in a statement that used me to justify the Firing Of Comey<\/a>. Perhaps the Attorney General<\/a> of the United States<\/a> was also complicit in that, Jeff Sessions<\/a>. And therefore wasnt informed until about an hour after this occurred. We have a whole new set of circumstances here and it includes, as dana has pointed out, the republican party, but the republicans especially, not only can they breathe a sigh of relief, but they have been in a position of having to defend a president who many of them believe is not fit for office. Thats what these four months have been about. The president of the United States<\/a> through his tweets, through his public remarks, through his defiance of the rule of law has shown himself unfit for office and they have had to defend him and they no longer do. Theres whole new rule of law mechanism in place, and thats what happened in watergate, is that the rule of law prevailed. We now have a structure this which that might happen here. It will be interesting to see if President Trump<\/a> resists the impulse to criticize the Special Counsel<\/a>, to tweet about it late at night or early in the morning. What do you think would have happened back in the 70s if president nixon would have loved twitter . I think Richard Nixon<\/a> would have had trouble operating twitter. He had trouble with his desk drawer, and those bottles that you had to push down to turn medicine bottles, he would fight those, so im not sure he would be skilled at twitter. I have trouble going there actually. But can i add a footnote about what was reported through independent counsel. You go all the way back to jaworski, as Special Counsel<\/a>, same status as mueller will\rhave, he did send a report to congress, went to the judge, got permission to provide the information to the house Judiciary Committee<\/a>, and the judge granted it. The grand jury information was sent up. So theres a long precedent for this material going up to congress. As jeff pointed out earlier, this wont take months, this will possibly take years, just like watergate took years to finish. What impact does that have on the administration and the country in the meantime . Will the republicans be able to move forward with their legislative agenda . First of all, the president of the United States<\/a>, with whats been going on by his own making, has been unsuccessful in governing the country from the white house. This should be an opportunity for him, if hes really interested in the truth. If hes really interested in governing, let him go ahead and do what the president of the United States<\/a> does. I dont think thats a very likely event here. We need to get back to the central principle of what is occurring here, we have an Ongoing Investigation<\/a> of whether or not the president of the United States<\/a> and his associates have colluded with a hostile foreign power, thats whats at the bottom of this. And the other thing is the president of the United States<\/a> has failed and resisted making his finances known and his dealings with russians, ethno russians, people in the former soviet empire, hes done an awful lot of business with them. That is going to be part of this investigation, in all likelihood. His sons have said, how much russian money has poured into their Family Coffers<\/a> . I would be amazed if this is not a road that the Special Counsel<\/a> is not going to go down. So now the president is in a position he has tried to resist and he no longer can effectively\ras he has until now. Let me tell you why it would be wrong to issue a report. Remember what a prosecutor does. He has a play thing, its called a grand jury. He can put anything in front of the grand jury. The grand jury hears only one side of the story, its secret. No lawyers are allowed into that Grand Jury Room<\/a>, it is a fundamental denial of basic due process for the prosecutor to come to any conclusion about what happened. The only thing he has the right to do is to decide, based on his evidence, that there is probable cause to continue to have an indictment. Anything he does beyond that is ultravirus and every civil libertarian should be appalled at it because there is no fairness in the way the prosecutor gathers evidence. Its one sided, he doesnt gather exculpatory evidence, he doesnt hear from the defense lawyer, he doesnt have objections from the defense lawyer, it is a kangaroo court. Its an insult to kangaroo courts. I think thats an overstatement. But i do think there are other interests at play beside fairness and due process . Actually the publics interest in this result that are well come back to you guys in a moment. Joining us from the senate Judiciary Committee<\/a>, democratic senator chris coons from delaware. Robert mueller named as a Special Counsel<\/a>. Your reaction . Anderson, im encouraged. His long record of service as a senior federal prosecutor and as former fbi director, suggests that hes exactly the sort of person that many of us hoped would be named for Special Counsel<\/a>. He has previous experience stepping up to an overreach, an exercise of power by an administration and with standing them, under the bush administration, when he and a number of other Law Enforcement<\/a>\rofficials threatened to resign if the president didnt respect their concerns about civil liberties. Hes also a decorated marine vet ran and someone who i think will enjoy the respect of a wide range of members of congress. This is a positive and important step, anderson. To those americans who want to know, did the president try to get Director Comey<\/a> to stop the investigation into general flynn, they may never get that information unless Robert Mueller<\/a> determines that a law was broken. Is there any concern that the other investigations going on in the senate, going on in the house, which have public hearings will not be able to inform the American People<\/a> as much as they would like . As your panel has been discussing, anderson, that is a possible path. There will be prompt conversations between Special Counsel<\/a> mueller and the Senate Intelligence<\/a> committee. I think they need to coordinate. I would hope that the senate\rintelligence Committee Hearings<\/a> will move forward. The entire senate has in front of them Rod Rosenstein<\/a>, the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general, and theres a number of important questions that will still be asked of him about the role that Attorney General Sessions<\/a> played in directing him to write the memo that led to comeys firing and whether or not he exceeded the scope of his recusal, and about what the president s role was in the firing of fbi Director Comey<\/a>. As you just heard from carl bernstein, theres a number of other issues that have not yet been brought in front of either the senate Judiciary Committee<\/a> or the intelligence committee, that i think are also going to be of concern to us. It is my hope, anderson, that at the end of this, there will be a Public Accounting<\/a> of whether or not there was collusion between the Trump Campaign<\/a> and russia. And its important for Public Confidence<\/a> in the rule of law\rand in congress that that result be reached. Do you have any sense of what kind of a timeline were looking at in terms of the Special Counsel<\/a> investigation . Its my expectation that the Special Counsel<\/a> investigation will be fully staffed and resourced and the odds are that that will allow them to reach a conclusion sooner than they might have on the current trajectory, but it could take several months or several areas, because the current fbi investigation has a Counterintelligence Component<\/a> and a possible criminal component. Theres a lot of details to go through here, a lot of individuals to interview, and a lot of documents to review. Because of former fbi Director Mueller<\/a>s senior experience, i dont think it will take him long to get up to speed and to be engaged and to be an effective leader on this investigation, but the result may be a year or two away. Chairman, senator grassley, who was appointing a special\rprosecutor, said it doesnt matter if he thinks its the right move. Does it matter . I think what was striking was the number of my colleagues, republicans, who did not step forward and said we needed a Special Prosecutor<\/a>, who did not step forward and say particularly after last nights alarming allegations in the press, that we need to get to the bottom of this and we need to understand whether or not our president has been inappropriately sharing highly and pressure the fbi director to drop an investigation of his National Security<\/a> adviser. I think its striking. And i think in the end, the General Public<\/a> wants to know whether or not senators, both republicans and democrat, are going to Work Together<\/a> in a responsible and bipartisan way to get to the bottom of this. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Just ahead, more reaction to all of tonights big developments. Its our first commercial break in an hour. Well be right back. Anywhere . You got that right, kid show thing. Get a directv allincluded package for 4 rooms. Only 25 a month, price guaranteed for 2 years. Available for at t Unlimited Plus<\/a> customers. When it comes to heartburn. Trust the Brand Doctors<\/a> trust. Nexium 24hr is the 1 choice of doctors and pharmacists for their own frequent heartburn. For all day and all night protection. Banish the burn. With nexium 24hr. Were drowning in information. Where, in all of this, is the stuff that matters . The stakes are so high, your finances, your future. How do you solve this . You dont. You partner with a firm that advises governments and the fortune 500, and, can deliver insight person to person, on what matters to you. Morgan stanley. In the hours before the Justice Department<\/a> named Robert Mueller<\/a> as Special Prosecutor<\/a> in the russia investigation, many republicans were resisting that step and urged caution over the allegations. Here is what paul ryan said earlier today. There are a lot of unanswered questions. What i told our members is now is the time to gather all the pertinent information. We cant deal with speculation and innuendo. And theres clearly a lot of\rpolitics being played. Democrats were having none of it. Here is elijah cummings. Speaker ryan has shown he has zero zero, zero appetite for any investigation of President Trump<\/a>. Two different points of view, both represented here with the panel. Kelly, whats your reaction to the naming of mueller . Many of us had full faith in the Justice Department<\/a> and rod who proved himself tonight when he did appoint a Special Prosecutor<\/a>. He thought it was in the best interest for everyone. I think he was correct in that. This is good for the Trump Administration<\/a> for two reasons. Many of us have been saying theres no evidence of collusion, no evidence. This is going to force the democratic the democratic hand when in fact you have an independent prosecutor coming out and saying theres no evidence of russian collusion. They cannot attack the messenger\rhere. The prosecutor would just say theres evidence of illegality, not whether theres collusion. When he says theres no charges put forth, that will be a good thing for the Trump Administration<\/a>. Number two, the last eight years we have seen his trust in american institutions demolished at the Justice Department<\/a> when bill klepten meet with loretta lynch. This will restore the American People<\/a>s trust in institutions amid a partisan environment. Good all the way around. Wait a minute. Hasnt President Trump<\/a> gone after american institutions more than any president in recent memory . The Intelligence Community<\/a>, the Justice Department<\/a>. He goes after it all the time. Thats what he came to washington to do. Burn it to the ground, destroy the socalled deep state who is out there to attack him and leaking left and right. Can we cut through the crap here . Donald trump will be held accountable. What will hold the republicans accountable who enabled this man to go this far . We knew from day one what kind of person donald trump was. We knew that he had no respect for anyone let alone the rule of law. I want to know whats going to happen to people like Reince Priebus<\/a> who demanded everyone in the gop pledge loyalty to this guy and now all these republicans are handcuffed to donald trump. Where has this gotten us . Where are the surrogates that barked and claps like circus seals . Investigates as far as the eye can see. Dont interrupt. Let her finish. Are you feeling good about that . How about letting her finish . I want to know. I think republicans like you who have given your loyalty to donald trump, what has he done for you . He dragged you into a terrible place. Actually, if i look at what donald trump has done for me and middle class america, he has brought down the illegal Border Crossing<\/a> by 60 . He has renegotiated trade agreements. Is it worth it . He brought unemployment down to a low level. He is restoring american confidence in jobs. He pulled out of tpp. He is doing all give him credit where there has been credit. Im not giving him credit. He is dragging down okay. Hold on. Lets focus on the actual news tonight, mueller. Paul, i mean for those can i for those americans that doesnt mean for those americans who want to know, did the president of the United States<\/a> try to stop Director Comey<\/a> from investigating Michael Flynn<\/a>, they may never get that answer because maybe there was not enough evidence to bring a case against it in which case we wont hear anything from Director Mueller<\/a>. We dont flow that. Getting back to the debate that the professor had. Many independent councils feel a need for the Public Interest<\/a> to report. Thats controversial. You are supposed to speak with an indictment. That might prompt a report. I would say, donald trump ran on a pledge of Law And Order<\/a> and god help him he is going to get it. Mr. Mueller is a credible Law Enforcement<\/a> official. He is going to get to the bottom of it. He may be pristinely innocent. And i will accept that if thats what we find. He is Sweating Bullets<\/a> now. The next big story is the president has to lawyer up. He needs to lawyer up. Right away. The white House Counsel<\/a> doesnt represent donald trump. He represents they were saying he should do that now. Yesterday. By the way, he may well have. Probably already has. We dont know. He has had a lawyer in the past in new york city. He is a civil lawyer. Whether he retained a criminal lawyer, i dont know. But hes the lawyer also representing the russian company. What a coincidence. Let me point out something. We have had independent prosecutors or Special Counsel<\/a>s going back to 1875. Grant named the first one because of the whiskey ring or\rsomething going on there. There have been 20 since 1983. This isnt something unusual. Jimmy carter had to deal, ronald reagan, bill clinton. Ronald reagan never had but let me say this. Let him finish. Let me say this. As somebody who was involved with the campaign, i absolutely do believe theyre going to show theres no collusion. Whats going to happen then is some of the partisans arent going to be as satisfied or as kind as paul. Are they going to say he didnt have the resources he needed, he didnt have the right lawyers, are the republicans mr. Mueller will tell us. Will you be of good faith . I believe he will let Justice Department<\/a> know, maybe congress know. Senator franken raised about it, he needs to be resourced. 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