Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20170510

Done was particularly striking. Director comey is a respected career Law Enforcement official, Public Servant. He was fired essentially through the press. He found out that he had been fired while he was speaking to fbi personnel in los angeles. There were press reports that a letter had been delivered to the fbi headquarters. Thats about as brazen and aggressive a way as you can fire somebody. As you referenced here, President Trumps letter saying you have told me three times im not under investigation just seems to protest too much the idea that theres nothing going on here other than sort of clearing the decks. I will remind you, director comey is just in the third year of his tenyear term. If this really was the reason for his firing, why wasnt he fired in the first few days of the Trump Administration . What happens now . Democrats can wring their hands and say there should be a special prosecutor. How does that happen unless its from the department of justice, from Rod Rosenstein . Thats the core challenge we face. As i understand it, under existing statute, a special counsel could be appointed by the Deputy Attorney general. That will require republicans to stand up and say, as well as democrats, that we have real concerns, that we think we have to do more to restore independence to this investigation and to express concerns. So far, we have heard from the republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee who has expressed some of those concerns and a few other senior republicans. Frankly, its my hope that in the interest of restoring the rule of law and the interest of restoring Public Confidence and the respect for the United States internationally as a country where there is a separation between partisan politics and the fbi and the department of justice, that this important step will be taken. Why should people who are watching at home have confidence in the continued investigation into getting to the bottom of what happened with russias interference with the election . At this moment in time, why should people have confidence . Well, i think theres a lot that has to be done to restore and ensure that confidence. I will remind you that the escapade with devin nunes really set that investigation off track. Really took them off track for a number of weeks. They have reconstituted themselves. Im optimistic the Senate Intelligence committee continues to operate in a bipartisan way and that there are republicans and democrats on that committee willing to stand up to the president , willing to issue subpoenas if necessary and required and they have the staff and the determination to get to the bottom of it. As for the fbi, i think thats going to take some work. I think its going to require the career professionals who run the investigation and the current leadership of the department of justice, most principally Rod Rosenstein to step forward and take strong action to restore that confidence in the independence of the investigation. Senator coons, appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much. A lot of fast moving developments here tonight to talk about. We are watching the plane bringing former fbi director james comey, i guess back to washington. He was at an event in l. A. Where if you are joining us, we are believe based on reporting that he was the moment he found out he was fired, he was talking to a group of fbi agents in los angeles in order to have some face time with them after all this public talk of investigations and just have face time when he learned from watching television, we understand, that he had been fired as director of the fbi. A lot to talk about with the panel. If you are just joining us at the top of the hour. Lets go back to our senior legal analyst actually, lets go to david gergen. You have seen a lot of administrations work with republicans and democrats. What do you make of whats happening in washington tonight . Stunning. Anderson, stunning. I could hardly remember a night like this until i went back to the saturday night massacre during the nixon days. I happened to be in that administration and that, of course, was more shocking. This i think i think its deeply troubling for our democracy, because its just the story the white house put out, theres no question that director comey has been invenvel ow enveloped in c. The story the white house put out is not credible. The events were events donald trump saluted. He hugged him as he came into office. Put the story out, i think, shows distrust and puts real i think puts pressure on the administration to come up with a solution that not only not only do they need an independent fbi director now, but they do need to look at an independent counsel. I salute richard burr, the republican senator from north carolina, for having the guts to say as a republican, this is all very suspicious. It is significant that richard burr said that. We have heard from democrats who are very concerned about what is going on. But richard burr, who is running the Senate Investigation for the republicans, thats clearly a substantial voice. Absolutely, anderson. Because you keep asking the question in an investigation like this, where is the republican howard baker . Where is someone who had his integrity and was willing to go where the facts led in the nixon investigation of watergate and i think acted honorably and brought great honor to congress by asking and persisting in asking the question about what did the president know and when did he know it. It was republicans during wat watergate to get the investigation going. Absolutely. They played a very i think the checks and balances worked really well and to forced nixon out as he should have been forced out after all the illegality. In this situation now, Everybody Knows that at the heart of all of this is whether the russians have had ties to a Trump Campaign and their effort to erode american democracy, to destabilize american democracy. We have new elections around the corner. Its really imperative we understand what happened in the last election. To throw the fbi director out at this very, very sensitive moment after this president has fired people like yates, he fired flynn. There are several people who are tied in one way or another to the russian issue who have been fired. Donald trump is he may not mean to do this, but he is giving the impression that he thinks danger is getting too close. That he himself may be somebody around him may be threatened. Yet, we heard from Kellyanne Conway the white house says this has nothing to do with russia. The firing of director comey is not the only breaking news concerning the trump russia investigation. Prosecutors have issued grand jury subpoenas to associates of Michael Flynn, a development that might have led this broadcast any other night. Evan perez joins us. Federal prosecutors issued subpoenas to associates of Michael Flynn seeking Business Records as part of the appropriate of russian meddling in last years election. The subpoenas represent the first sign of a significant escalation of activity in the fbis broader investigation that began last july into possible ties between Trump Campaign associates and russia. The subpoenas were issued in recent weeks. They were received by associates who had worked with flynn on contracts after he was forced out as the director of the Defense Intelligence agency in 2014. We reached out to an attorney for flynn. He declined to comment as well as spokes people for the fbi and u. S. Attorneys office. Do we know what theyre looking at with regard to flynn . They have been looking into possible wrongdoing and how flynn handled disclosure about payment from clients tied to foreign governments. Flynn was paid 45,000 for making an appearance in moscow to celebrate russia today, thats the russian funded news outlet that the u. S. Intelligence agencies say helped disseminate stolen emails intended to damage Hillary Clintons campaign. What does it tell us about the state of the investigation . Until now, we have only gotten small looks into what the fbi and federal prosecutors have been doing. The former fbi director james comey told lawmakers, it was an Ongoing Investigation into possible coordination and Trump Campaign associates and russia. He testified that the investigation was being overseen by those prosecutors in alexandria and the National Security division, the u. S. Attorney in alexandria whose Office Issued the subpoenas is investigating wikileaks and running the National Security prosecutions as Justice Department headquarters. We were working on this story before we learned that james comey was fired today. We have got a video of james comeys departure, the former director actually shaking hands with Law Enforcement officers. This is the first we are getting a look at it. Departing from he was departing from los angeles at the event where we understand, according to reporting from pamela brown earlier, he was actually talking to fbi officials, wanting face time with them to answer questions they may have had. When they saw on television that he had been fired. Its a stunning way for a Public Servant like james comey to find out that he has been fired by seeing it on television. Its just wrong. Historically, you have had democrats who have said hes a good Public Servant. You have republicans who said hes a good Public Servant. At the end of the day, he was somebody who was serving what he thought was a tenyear term, only 3 1 2 years into it. Obviously, he made mistakes. Big mistakes. But does anybody who has had a career that he has had up until the past year or so or even including that deserve to get fired while you are in los angeles speaking to your troops and see it on television . Its not cool. With trump, despite the apprentice and the tv reputation and the you are fired thing, if you talk to people around him, he does not like conflict. I heard someone on twitter say he fires people on tv. Well, he fired him on tv. I want to make a point about how absurd this is. The attorney general involved in making this recommendation thought enough to recuse himself from the Russian Investigation because he himself failed to disclose that he had meetings with the russian ambassador. At no time did he turn to the president and say, you know, it would be inappropriate for you to fire the head of the fbi when the fbi is investigating your campaign by extension your white house for colluding with a foreign power. That is absurd. How is that absurd . If you run an agency that runs investigations, that person does not day to day run the investigation. They are not in charge of the investigation. They manage the personnel and thats im sorry. He is the attorney general no, no, you interrupted me. I will finish my point. No, no. You are getting one at a time. We dont need to talk over each other. We have plenty of time. You just stop. Let him finish. To issue a talking point. You understand you want to do that. He is the attorney general of the United States. He advises the president. He knew enough to recuse himself from the investigation. He should have been a grownup and said this was wrong. People have said from the white house, some of the talking points you were starting to utter, that Hillary Clinton i dont have a talking point. It sounded similar to what Kellyanne Conway said when you interrupted me. Im speaking. You will have your chance. The white house is saying Hillary Clinton would have fired jim comey. Im sure she would have liked to. I know there was some discussion of that when she thought she was poised to win. She actually got very sage advice that you couldnt do that because of how nakedly political that would look. Apparently, theres nobody in the white house who gave that advice to this president. You are jumping to conclusions. I think maybe lets hypothetically assume all of your awful expectations are true. Which are overwhelmingly represented in the discussion tonight. Lets assume they are true. You will know that when the president announces his proposed replacement. That person in light of all of the concerns expressed here some of them in a rather hyperventilated way will be brought into even clearer focus when that person is selected. Do you know who it is in is. I have no idea. It is incumbent on the president that he picks someone who both sides in the senate in particular can view coming in as capable and with a track record of objectivity. Should he call for an independent counsel as well. Im not the person to ask that. I would say no to democrats and republicans on that. We havent heard from you, van. I dont think you mean to say somebody might have heard you saying that we cant complain or criticize tonight when the president of the United States has done something this outrageous. I think we have a right to criticize today. I dont care if he appoints anderson tomorrow im totally not qualified. I would complain about that. Everybody would. I wouldnt. Here is the prom. Let me say a couple things. Number one, you can do the right thing for the wrong reason at the wrong time in the wrong place and manner. I dont think anybody here thinks that comey was doing a great job. Perhaps firing him would have been the right thing. But you are doing it for the wrong reason. You are doing it in the wrong way. You are doing it the wrong place, the wrong manner. That is of grave concern. It looks like to most people objectively that this decision was made in a way that moves us away from rule of law and more toward the rule of a small click of people. Let me push back. I think what the attorney general raises an important point. If he appoints somebody who is responsible, who is a Law Enforcement person, who has a great track record, its not not some sheriff out on the speaking circuit but who has a real fbi career, whats wrong with that . If he has the confidence of the president , thats what matters. I will tell you why. Because of this pattern and practice we have seen now of him firing people who stand up to him. He fires good people. He fires bad people. The only consistency is if you stand up to him. So it doesnt matter if he puts a good person in there. You now have there pattern and practice. I think a lot of people around the country right now are concerned that the only winner, the only people who have to be lap pi are s happy are sitting in the kremlin. This is the result of letting putin throw marbles on the stairs, banana peels on the sidewalk and not having the president say, i want this to stop. Its because you have a president of the United States that has been other than outraged about this Russian Investigation this russian disruption of our election that you now have a level of concern in the country that got worse. To me, its interesting, do you believe Kellyanne Conway made an interesting point. In her view, to her argument, this has nothing do with russia. This is about james comey does not have the confidence of the president. You can argue whether he should or shouldnt, whether the timing is weird. Their argument is this has nothing to do with russia. Can you make that argument for the director if you were targeting the russia investigation, name we have heard her, dana bente, who has a spectacular reputation, who has been given extraordinary responsibilities by President Trump in these first few months of his administration, and who headed the National Security division, cl is obviously a point of focus, that appointment was just named as well, those would be the people where you would see this you dont think the firing of comey has any impact on a russia investigation . Of course not. Go ahead. I gotta say, i think whether or not its going to affect the investigation, theres career people, career agents at the fbi, career people at the Justice Department that are actually running this investigation. The problem that is created by what happened tonight is the perception. Perception matters. That is you are the first person to say that. Everything i have been hearing is the investigation this is one reason why no one said that. This is why comey was in charge of the investigation. He was very much on top of it. I know that you have run large organizati organizations. When Something Like that is really big and important inside the fbi, comey made sure he was getting regular updates. He was very much in control of this. I do think that perception matters. I think theres a tall order here for the president. You are saying even within the fbi, the firing of comey would the perception of it would affect the investigation . It really does. There are a lot i do believe that there will be i do believe you are going to have you are going to have a tall order for the president for the attorney general and other people to find somebody that you were talking about, somebody i dont know who its going to be. Hold one. Jim, go ahead. You and i have talk to a lot of folks in Law Enforcement. The word i get texted and emails is conflict of interest. Its more than perception. Its more than how this is perceived in panels like this. Its about conflict of interest. Which evan knows better than me is something that career folks, but also people of both parties inside the bureau no question, but inside the house and Senate Investigations take very seriously. Avoiding conflict of interest. Thats what im hearing. Does that principal still matter . The level of outrage we are talking about and criticizing on this panel would have been at the same level if barack obama had fired james comey in the middle of the clinton email investigation last year. You yourself, if i remember correctly, were a critic of the way that Loretta Lynch met with bill clinton on the airplane. Am i not right . What would you have said if obama fired comey under similar circumstances . See, that makes a huge difference. A huge difference here. Answer. Answer. I think its an excellent point. There are a lot of reasons why again, a lot of it goes into the context and if obama fired comey in the middle of the clinton email investigation, what would your reaction be . I would be shocked. Why so different tonight . This is why people dont like partisans. They dont understand why you have such a different view of things when its a different party. No, no, no. I was outraged its the saum thing. You dont like interrupting . Let him answer. You asked. Let him answer. Last summer, director comey acted like a prosecutor with final Decision Making authority and not an investigator. That was a huge mistake bipartisanly criticized and Something Like that for the director of the fbi can never be recovers from. Ever. To your point, the way you handle a conflict of interest situation dowhen my line attorneys came to me with recommendations, unless they were outside a very severe boundary, i followed them. Here is the the evidence tonight is that the president did that. You can suppose that the Deputy Attorney general cooked all this up. But he is the career person of the three. Whats shocking is that i dont mind partisans. You are a former attorney general accusing me and maybe others of hyperventilating. When you are not coming you are telling me you are okay with the president firing an fbi director in the middle of an investigation that involves him and people around him, despite the pretext is with zero credibility. There isnt a jury that would buy the fact that donald trump is spilling a tear over Hillary Clinton. You will stand by that . I think you are stuck inside the beltway. If you get no, no, no. That is such a cheap talking point. You are an attorney general. Are you going to defend it . I dont say things i wont stand behind. Really . You can say you think its okay to fire the fbi director in the middle of an investigation and an attorney general shouldnt stand up against it . There are thousands of its a fact going on. Is it not a fact . To you its not there are thousands of investigations going on. Is this about the others as well . Several of them will clearly come on. Ken, donald trump is president. Donald trump is president. During the campaign we have chapter and verse and we have been showing it on the air, he loved what comey did in that july 5th presser where he called Hillary Clinton reckless and Everything Else and robby mook joined our panel. Im sure he recalls it. He loved it. He praised it. He praised it. The october 28th letter, he didnt criticize that at all. Rod rosenstein criticized it in a few pages here. So you might believe that rosenstein is speaking for the president if the president hadnt spoken for himself. No, no, no. The president has spoken for himself. He is making a recommendation to the president. Not speaking for the president. The president took the recommendation. This is the letter they released. I stated them last year. We get this is the letter they released. The president has not appeared to talk about this, nor has attorney general sessions. I spoke with Kellyanne Conway. Here is some of that. Joining us is the white house counselor to the president , Kellyanne Conway. To those who say why now, why fire james comey now, what do you say . I would point them to the three letters that were received today, anderson. The letter by donald trump, attorney general sessions and the underlying report by Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein, who the fbi director reports to. The director reports to the Deputy Attorney general. He was confirmed just 14 days ago. By a vote of 946 by our United States senators. He is well respected across both sides of the aisle. He served as u. S. Attorney in maryland under president obama. He sent out a memo today to the attorney general and it says, restoring Public Confidence in the fbi. A lot of the most of the letter focuses on Hillary Clintons emails. This is stuff that as a candidate donald trump praised james comey for. James comey donald trump talked about this on the campaign all the time, all of a sudden the white house is concerned about james comeys handling of Hillary Clintons emails . No. Its not all of a sudden. There are many things covered in this letter. In this letter, why not ask for a special prosecutor at this point . Is that possible . This letter is about restoring Public Confidence in the fbi. Theres a lot of i talked to adam schiff, the leading democrat on the house committee. John mccain talked about the need for a special prosecutopro. You are asking me the core question of why you are talking about restoring confidence. Theres people on capitol hill who say in order to restore confidence, we need a special prosecutor. What happened to all the democrats i have all their quotes right here that had no confidence in comey . So now your white house is saying that what he did was wrong but previously as a candidate donald trump was saying it was the right thing. You are completing two tlin s things that dont belong together. I was on your show saying how we were going to win michigan. That was fun. Here is what happened today. Today, not in a campaign, in the white house, the president of the United States that person doesnt exist anymore . Candidate donald trump, thats a fictional character we no longer are allowed to refer to . We can now only refer to the donald trump who is around today . I will ignore how unkind that is. He needs confidence there his fbi director. He doesnt have it. When was the moment he lost confidence . Read this letter. Its a its a confluence of events. What mr. Rosenstein says is so important. He says, the fbis reputation and credibility have suffered substantial damage. I cannot defend the directors handling of the conclusion of the investigation of second clintons emails. The fbi director is never empowered to supplant prosecutors. We do not release derogatory statements. He says the dismissal of an fbi director, the firing of an fbi director should not be taken lightly. He thinks we need to regain public and congressional trust if we have a director who understands the gravity of the mistakes and pledges and never to repeat them. That is whats happened. This has nothing to do with the campaign from six months ago. This is to do with the performance the fbi director since the president has been in the white house. That was Kellyanne Conway. Joining us is robby mook. Good to see you. What do you make of the firing of the james comey . Look, i have a big bone to pick with james comey. I thought the way he handled the investigation on secretary clintons emails last year was poorly done. However, what happened today was wrong. It was wrong because no one in our country, particularly the president of the United States, should be above the law. What happened was we know that mr. Comey was overseeing an investigation into the president. The president and his attorney general both of whom potentially are implicated in this investigation made a decision to fire him. They did so without appointing a special prosecutor to oversee this case. As we have heard from this panel, the questions are now gushing out about whether this investigation was closing in on the president and this was his way of closing it down. The white house says this has nothing to do with the russia investigation. They point to the letter as you heard from kellyanne who said the president lost confidence in james comey. Many of them have to do with the handling of the Hillary Clinton email investigation. And i question confidence in director comey. A lot of people did. There was an investigation into his activities there. We were waiting to get that back. All of a sudden today the president out of nowhere decides to let this man go. After the russia questions were mounting higher and higher. We heard testimony yesterday that the white house had been notified about compromises for general flynn. They did nothing for days and days. I think Everybody Needs to wake up tomorrow morning and ask every american every american needs to ask themselves, what am i doing about this . This is the kind of authoritarian behavior we have seen spread in other parts of the world. If we dont stop it now, im worried about what could happen. I have a bone to pick with james comey. I thought what he did was inappropriate and potentially illegal. I was the first one in line to say he should be held accountable. What happened was to defend donald trump, not to defend the judicial process. If donald trump picks somebody to head the fbi with a sterling reputation who continues the investigation, why doesnt the president have the right to have somebody who has his full confidence . The president has lost the right to choose who is in charge of this. His own attorney general lied to the senate about his meetings with russia. The president fired the man who is overseeing this investigation when it heated up. The United States senate and the house of representatives should get together immediately and appoint a special prosecutor. I dont care what party you are in. This has gotten completely out of hand. If you care about the rule of law, this has got to become independent. Special prosecutor and get a reputable person in to do that and continue this investigation. Its up to the Deputy Attorney general could appoint a special prosecutor. They clearly feel that theres not a need to. They there are multiple investigations going on. Its clear the justice to the extent the Justice Department represents donald trump, its clear they dont think there needs to be any investigation, not only into the Trump Campaign in russia but into what russia is doing to democracies around the world. The president hasnt even acknowledged what the russians did in the french election. Everyone in the world is asking what happened. What is russia doing . Why are they doing it . The person who doesnt want to know is donald trump. Thats scary. Thats why the Congress Needs to do their job, step in, restore the balance of power and get this out of the white houses purview. From the white house, Kellyanne Conway and i assume donald trump, the President Trump, does not believe or wants people to believe this has nothing to do with russia. You cant say for a fact this is because of russia. It certainly obviously to many people it seems that way. Its not because of hillarys emails. The fact that Donald Trumps administration is coming out and saying, the attorney general excuse me, the director of the fbi handled hill res email investigation, so badly, poor Hillary Clinton we will fire him. Its laughable. Its absurd. We shouldnt give in to that debate. Its ridiculous. What we should do is stand up for holding the president accountable. Did List Campaign collude with russia . What did russia do . What is russia capable of doing . Did the president or his staff break the law . We have to get those answers. We cannot give in to these distractions they throw out. They want us to talk about, does donald trump care about hillarys emails . He does not. He does not. He never has. We cant let him get away with these lies. Its a lie. Thats what it is. He is trying to put himself above the law. None of us should stand for it. Democrat or republican. This is not a partisan issue. This gets to the fundamental tenets of our legal system. We have been reporting, sources say the white house did not expect serious fallout from this. They seem to be trying to make up for that. Jeff zeleny is at the white house reporting on damage control. I can tell you the entire west wing is fully staffed at this hour, which is unusual. Usually, everyone is long home by this hour. They were absolutely caught off guard as dana reported earlier this evening. It has been playing out here in real time outside the white house. An hour or so ago, as you know, Kellyanne Conway was speaking to cm f cnn. Sean spicer, the press secretary was huddling with reporters up against the bushes trying to explain this in the pitch black. In the darkness here. They were absolutely caught off guard by this. I asked one Top White House official, how could that be that you were caught off guard by this . They said, we did not expect the democrats who were no fans of james comey in the first place to react like this. Of course, its not just democrats reacting like this. Its republicans like senator rich burr as well who was not given a heads up. He is the republican chairman of the Intelligence Committee here. The white house now trying to regain control of the narrative. Theyre making other phone calls. I asked the Communications Director a short time ago, when will we hear from the president . Will he explain his view of this . Theres nothing planned this evening. Tomorrow theres nothing planned. Anderson, you cannot imagine any of this going away or dieing down until he addresses this. He speaks to this. This is a firestorm that has caught them flat footed tonight. Is there any talk or any word at the white house about who think may be looking at for to be the next director of the fbi . Not that we have heard. I asked several officials that exact thing. They said that, look, this is something that is about a week or so in the works. The president has been sort of thinking about this for at least a week. The Deputy Attorney general has been sort of looking at this since he came into office, since he was confirmed two weeks ago. So they have people in mind. Theyre not sharing any of those people at this point. That is a sensitive thing going forward. You can almost not imagine them appointing someone who was in the michel flynn type of situation, who was deeply involved in helping send him to the white house here. Deeply involved in the election campaign. But they are not saying yet who they are thinking this is Jeff Sessions arriving i guess back at his residence. We have seen that when he leaves. Thats his residence. We do not know who they are thinking of to replace him. That is the next question here among many, many tonight. Jeff zeleny, thanks. Whats so striking about this is just happening just as we also learn of the existence of grand jury subpoenas going out to associates of Michael Flynn. Pamela brown joins us with the latest. We have learned federal prosecutors issued grand jury subpoenas to associates of former National Security adviser for President Trump Michael Flynn. Seeking Business Records as part of the ongoing probe of russia meddling in last years elections. The subpoenas represent the first sign of a significant escalation of activity in the fbis broader investigation that began last july into ties between Trump Campaign associates and russia. They were issued just in the recent weeks, in the last couple of weeks were told by sources by the u. S. Attorneys office in alexandria, virginia. They were received by associates who worked with Michael Flynn on contracts after he was forced out as director of the Defense Intelligence agency in 2014. An attorney for flynn declined to comment as did the Justice Department, fbi and u. S. Attorn attorneys office. We were working on the story before we found out learned about the news that james comey had been fired from the post as the director of the fbi. What are is it known what investigators are looking at with regard to flynn . What we do know from talking to sources is that investigators have been looking into the possible wrongdoing in how Michael Flynn handled disclosure about payments from clients tied to foreign governments including russia and turkey. Flynn was paid 45,000 for making an appearance in moscow to celebrate russia today. The russianfunded news outlet that u. S. Intelligence says helped disseminate stolen emails intended to damage Hillary Clintons campaign. We dont believe its related to his conversations with the ambassador of russia, specifically about talking about sanctions. We know the fbi had interviewed him about that conversation and they didnt feel that it was appropriate to press charges on that particular instance. Theres this broader counterintelligence broad of Michael Flynn is very much part of that probe. Does this tell us anything more about the state of this investigation . Well, it does. Until now, we have only gotten small windows into what the fbi and federal prosecutors have been doing. Fired fr ed fbi director said t was an ongoing criminal investigation. He testified that this investigation was being overseen by prosecutors in virginia and the Justice Departments National Security division. They are overseeing the investigation of wikileaks and is now running National Security prosecutions at the Justice Department. This investigation has been tightly held since it began last july. Pam brown, thanks. I want to get jeffs take on this. He is a former federal prosecutor. First, jeff, what do you make of pams reporting . This is an active investigation. Michael flynn was the National Security adviser to the president of the United States. He is under criminal investigation by the fbi. The president of the United States just fired the head of the fbi. It just is so obviously speaks for itself that the wrongness of that. Ken just said a moment ago that what was the word . Hair on fire or hyperventilating. Isnt that what you said . I would like to speak out in favor of hyperventilating on this issue. This is not a normal political event. This is not some bill thats come passing congress or not passing congress. This is about the integrity of the american judicial system. It threatened in a way that it hasnt been since october 20, 1973, the day of the saturday night massacre. This is different. This is a categorical difference than the president of the United States is firing the man who is investigating the president of the United States. Trump himself acknowledged in his goofy letter where he talks about, three times that he was supposed by exonerated by director comey. I dont know what he isser fr referring to. It shows that he knows he is under investigation, yet he is firing this guy anyway. Its not normal and its not american. Ken . I disagree. Im completely on the other side of the coin. Here we have an investigation thats proceeding. Everything that happens in this investigation tomorrow is going to be the same in spite of the removal of the director of the fbi. Because the professionals who handle this day to day are going to keep handling it it day to day. Theyre not going to how do you know . How do you know that . Its ridiculous. This doesnt stop anything. All the grand jury subpoenas go out. The work in pursuit of those will continue. So why is there a head of the fbi if the guy doesnt matter at all . They sort of operate on automatic pilot . The whole agency operates day to day, a whole set of career professionals who carry these investigations in a responsible who tells them what to investigate . Once in a while one of them die. They replace them. Low a and behold the investigat goes on. The president has the authority to remove the director of the fbi because on a bipartisan basis confidence has been lost in the man. I hear judgment contrary to what the president did here tonight. Thats everyones opportunity, of course, to express that. I think the real test of that perspective will be who he selects to replace james comey. The investigations go on. Theyre not impaired. The notion that this is somehow going to stop the investigations going on by the fbi is ludicrous. Congress passed a law Congress Passed a law have respect for the fbi. The way you see the fbi, its irrelevant who is the director. They seem to operate independently. Congress passed a law that said fbi directors should have tenyear terms. To avoid precisely the situation that happened today. To avoid president s trying to control the outcome of investigations. Thats why there are tenyear terms. Thats why theres been one fbi director who was fired that was william sessions by bill clinton. Something that was not politically controversial, democrats and republicans thought he should go. This is the first and only time in American History that an fbi director has been fired by a president at a time when that president is under investigation by the fbi. Its so wrong and its so obviously wrong that its just pathetic, ken, that you are trying to defend it. I think that if President Trump appoints someone who is above reproach to replace comey, all of these arguments i have been listing to will be brushed aside, as they should be. Test is on the president. The burden is on the president at this point. This does nothing to impair any investigations the fbi is conducting right now. It just doesnt. What about that . If some guy or woman with a sterling reputation in Law Enforcement is picked, what does that say . Who is to say that person wont be fired in a couple months, too . Look at the body count of people who have been investigating President Trump. You have sally yates. You have jim comey. You have barara who was told he had a job but was fired. Who is going to believe that he is going to leave whoever this next person is in place . Were going to bring in the rest of the panel in a moment. We continue to get new information minute by minute. Evan perez joins us. What have you been learning . Anderson, one of the backdrops of what happened today is this complaints from the white house from the president and from the attorney general to jim comey, the now former fbi director, complaining about leaks. While the fbi and while the Justice Department have been working on the russia investigation, the investigation into trump ties, Trump Associates ties to russia, the complaints from the white house and from leadership at the Justice Department has been about leaks and about getting the fbi to put more priority in hunting down those leebs. The fbi responded by tightening media policy. We know they have restrict who had can talk to the media in the last couple of weeks. Thats one of the things they have taken action on. We also know that they have been pursuing some of the leak investigations. At the same time, the activity in the russia investigation has not ceased, as you notice from the fact we reported that the grand jury subpoenas had been issued by the u. S. Attorneys office in the Eastern District of virginia. It goes to show that theres a lot of complaints that the fbi director was hearing both from the white house and from across the street at the Justice Department headquarters that there wasnt enough being done to hunt down the leaks. In the eyes of the attorney general and in the eyes of the president , leaks were the most important part of what is happening right now. Is it your understanding that played a role in the president losing confidence in the director of the fbi . We dont know. We dont know exactly what whether that played any role in what happened today. Again, as i talked a little bit earlier, perception matters. This is what the fbi director has been hearing repeatedly from his superiors across the street and down the street at the white house. Leaks are the important part of the story, not the investigation of getting into the bottom of what happened last year with the russia meddling. The perception is something thats going to matter in all of this. The fbi has career people who are handling this investigation. Perception is going to matter as to how this was done. Evan perez, thanks very much. Back now back now with the panel. We have another republican senator coming out with a negative reaction to this. Senator ben sass. He calls the firing very troubling. He wants to he has reached out to the attorney general and Deputy Attorney general to get a better understanding of what their rational was for this. This is becoming more bipartisan. The other point i would make there was a phrase that stuck out to me from non it was director clappers statement and senator burr, the republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee, both in their statements used this phrase to describe the firing. A loss for the nation. A sign this is what im hearing from career folks inside the bureau as well. This is not about party. This is about process and the system and conflict of interest. You have folks who are career employees of the bureau but also of both parties, democrats and republicans, who look at this not as a political issue but as a nations issue. A process issue. Thats what you are beginning to hear from more than just the democrats. More reaction on another breaking item. Everyone who cares about independence and rule of law in america should be troubled by the timing and reasoning of comey firing. I think the more you hear that and you hear this the word troubling keeps popping up, including from richard burr. This is a test of the balance of power. Its going to be really interesting now to see what congress does when they investigate this. Because they will. The American Public will say, we need to know what happened here. We want to find out what happened. They will call comey up to talk to them about it. I wouldnt be surprised if you have a real investigation about this. Because this is what checks and balancing is all about. David gergen, you wanted to say something. I think i want to follow up on glorias point. I do think that we need to know how we got here and we need to examine that more closely. We had two letters dated today and the president s response today. Its simply not credible that all of this occurred today. There had to be preplanning among the principals, white house staff may not have known about it because thats the way things like this happen. Three or four people, the attorney general, Deputy Attorney general, the president had to agree some time ago about how they were going to do this and what the rational would be. I would subject thereggest it w the issuance of the subpoenas and that got the ball rolling. We heard the Deputy Attorney general started taking a hard look at this two weeks ago. Thats about the time when the subpoenas were issued. We need to know that. I want to say one other thing about this. There would have been very, very careful consideration at the president ial level with the Justice Department, with the attorney general, with the Deputy Attorney general about whether this was wise or not. Donald trump has a very good feel for thepublic. You knew it was going to cause a firestorm. We should dismiss the idea that it caught him totally by surprise. He had to have decided, its worth the firestorm to get rid of the guy. I will ride it out. I have to get rid of the guy. Dana that is what makes it so suspicious. I totally agree with david that donald trump has his finger on the pulse of the American People or the people who support him. Got him elected. No question. He is an impulsive person. How many stories have i heard, have you heard, probably all heard of him blowing up about something . Lets just get rid and the question is did that happen . And if it did, did somebody say hold on a second. Its not just firing i mean pete beraro was a red flag. Sally yates defied the president. That was in many ways understandable that he didnt want her there. This is a whole different ball game and as we learn more and more is did somebody stand up and say this is potentially seismic and a huge, huge problem. I want to speaking to davids point which is you say this is carefully planned. My question is was it carefully planned that he was out of town, that he was speaking in california, that he was not ibhis office. He wasnt here. Didnt happen at the fbi when he was there. Is that something people would be thinking about . Theres a reason why the saturday night massacre was on a saturday night. I think that become as matter of speculation. Democrats are scrambling. Were now hearing that democrats are saying theyre going to block any appointment of anybody to eare place comey until there is a special prosecutor. Youre going to see a show of resistance people see this as a real threat. I think weve taken a step towards a rule of a small group of people. I said dob don had become president and he has, president nixon. Its an abuse of power and i feel vindicated tonight. I insert Hillary Clintons name into scenarios and i bet attorney general, you might be the one hyperventilating. And i will tell you this as well. As a former attorney general is you think a test is what comes next. What base of confidence that hes going to appointment someone with a sterling reputation to the fbi . A firing at the time of a Major Investigation into potentially him and his administration. His own attorney general saw fit to recuse himself. But you dont have any problem with that. We do have evidence and the most important appointment hes made was neil gorsuch. An unimpeachable choice. And i would agree on two process points stepping aside from the substance. Dana said this isnt the way you handle this with someone like james comey. I agree. And completely mismanaged within the white house and thats Reince Priebus primarily. Chief of staff is suppose tod prepare for this to manage this team and thats not the first time this kind of mismanagement has happened. I think its important we try to find common ground. At least half the country is concerned with the Russian Investigation. What would you do in the situation trump finds himself in to give people more confid bs . Would you support any kind of effort to deal with this . Congress moving forward . What should republicans be calling for in the face of a shaken republic . I expect both bodies to press ahead with their investigations and two, as ive said earlier donald trump is going to have to pick someone that ordinary americans can look to with confidence in taking on this roll and if he does that, it would be uns wiwise of democrat impose the kind of resistance the independent commission . As long as they press ahead from the legislative branch, you have your check that way as long as its real and theyre thorough. Jeff lord has been standing by. Ive bip sitting here watching this. Fascinating and i confess im a little cynical at all the reaction. Clarence thomas and bill clinton in terms of special prosecutors. Arch bald and ken starr. The world was going to end. Everybody in washington was furious you move ahead to bill clinton and all of this never mattered. It was only about sex. When archbald cox was fired by nixon, it was a massacre. And i just look at this and this is astonishing. If President Trump apoints a very well respected, a federal judge or someone of that nature, a career fbi agent, this will vanish and up until then its a circus, a show and its terrible. And im not blaming all of you guys. Its the way it works and ive seen it before. No one ever fired ken starr i should point out. Do you believe this had anything to do with the russia investigation . No. I think its very obvious. Ive been printing out statements from democrats demanding his resignation and all the sudden tonight theyre defending him. Its hypocrisy to the max. They dont have anything about russia. If its there, get it out. And as ive said before, im all for an independent commission. No special prosecutors. They dont go well. But an independent commission on the style of the 9 11 commission, lets do it. Director comey, president obama, lets discuss the leaks all of it. Get out. It is hitting f5 on the political analysis key to say democrats are being hypocrites. There is a basis for jim comey being fired and you can bed a ltly opposed as an american citizen to the purging at a time of a Major Investigation into the white house im sorry. How can you not hold those two points of view at the same time . This is not the kremlin. Not yet. Thats exactly the problem. This is not what happens in democracies. Youre going to defend the firing of an fbi director under these circumstances . All the attacks on ken starr were just fine for you . Can we focus on the relevant matter . No, we cannot. I want you to be precise. No. You can be for the firing of jim comey and oppose a president for nakedly political reasons purging his government. Clearly jeff does not believe its purging or political. We havent heard from you. Lot has been said. I think this isnt about who likes james comey and didnt watch. We watched in disbelief when he said what he did before the election but president obama didnt fire him. There wasnt obviously an open investigation into president obama but this isnt about who likes and didnt like him. The issue here is the timing. The fact that theres an open investigation into associates of this president. Its something republicans, senators, members of the house should be concerned about. I think were honestly giving too much credit others have said theyre concerned, discouraging. If theyre not calling for an independent prosecutor, people should question their patriotism and what they think should happen to get to the bottom of this. Just because somebody doesnt want an independent prosecutor doesnt mean theyre in cuhuts with russia. Theyre in a sense holding back on this investigation moving forward. When you have the only person leading the investigation going forward, you need an outside person doing that. It shouldnt be a partisan thing. Its obviously going to be continuing all night. Jake tapper is along with a special report. Up first don lemon and cnn tonight with the latest. Anderson, thank you very much. Our breaking news, President Trumps bomb shell firing of fbi director james comey. Lets put it as plainly as we can. The president of the United States has fired the man investigating his campaigns ties to russia. Fired him. Shocking confusion tonight on capitol hill around the country and round the world. And now questions being raised on whether theres a cover up going on. We have said it before but its never been more true than it is in this moment. Cnns gloria, dana bash and pamela brown. History in the making. What are you learning . Were learning that the white house at this hour tonight is stil