his gos pel through a book he wrote with his wife, called to train up a child. the pearls wrote it as a blueprint for raising children the way the bible demands. but they say they're not to blame for what the schots did to 7-year-old lydia. they explained it to our gary tuchman. >> i don't use the word hitting. >> what is the word is this. >> spanking. >> there's a difference? >> a little switch is spampging. a wooden spoon or rubber spatula is spanking. >> why not just use your hand instead will all these materials? >> let me show you something. does that hurt? doesn't feel good, but look what it's doing to your whole body. here's your hand on somebody, that's a karate chop. >> you say when you use this material, that it can't cause a permanent -- >> my children never had marks left on them. >> they're not shy about using props and humor. >> i'm going to spank the sinning man -- >> reporter: to show how they believe god wants parents to spank. >> rubbing the spaghetti all over your head, you shouldn't have done that at 7 years of age. okay? that hurts. and i'm 50. i mean -- i mean, i -- >> are there any marks on you? >> but you would hit a 5-year-old like that? >> yeah, sure. >> reporter: the pearls said you could never be too young for some physical pain. for example when a baby bites during breast-feeding. >> i would very gently pull their hair, enough to make them let go. >> reporter: the spankings with various objects, say the pearls, are actually done out of love. >> spanking is done out of love, they say. we discovered spare the rod, spoil a child is a message that many people still embrace. now, you're going to hear from some of them tonight. and from people who disagree with them. people like james mason, a former student at a religious boarding school, pine haven christian ranch in montana who said he was physically disciplined by a house parent after being accused of misbehaving. >> at that point he lifted me up by my neck against the door, and held me up until i pretty much went limp. and i was subdued, and i was contained. and i was no longer a threat, as much as a 14-year-old can be to a former army full grown man. >> it turned out that accused house parent at that school still works there. gary tuchman talked with him. >> reporter: some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve endings -- >> show me, where on my body. >> right there. >> show me. >> right there. >> you're going to hear more from the house parent and his accusers in the hour ahead. gary is investigating another religious school. what he found is shocking. students said they were forced to panhandle in subways and streets. watch. >> reporter: my name is gary tuchman with cnn. we want to know why you have children out here begging for money here at this subway. >> we're not answering any questions. >> very young children. there's more on that. gary's also been looking into allegations of abuse at a fundamentalist fair haven school in indiana. several students are claiming they faced corporal punishment at the hands of the pastor and school officials. here's one of the former students who said he was in the 7th grade when he said he had an encounter with with an administrator. >> he spanked me and the paddle split down the middle. whenever he would hit me, it would pinch the skin on my bottom, and bruised and bleed. >> there are other former fair haven students alleging abuse. see how the influential pastor responds to the accusations. in montana, we begin at the school facing accusations of abuse in the name of god. here's gary report. >> reporter: here in the part of big sky country, disturbing allegations are just over the horizon, in the town of st. ignatius, montana. where the religious boarding school pine haven christian children's ranch is located. it's been run for nearly four decades by this 82-year-old preacher. are these troubled kids, or kids with troubled parents? who is coming here? >> all kind. >> reporter: bob larson is blunt, any kid who comes here is expected to behave and praise the lord. what do you try to teach these children first of all about christianity? >> that god loves them. and god ishe answer of everything. he's the ruler of the universe. he made man, he made the world, he made the rules. >> reporter: but some say there's more to pine haven than christian teachings. they say there's violence. this couple was in charge of children in one of the cabin style homes on the ranch. >> children are hurt at pinehaven. when kids won't obey, physical pain is used to get them to comply. whether it's pressure points, sometimes they were drug down a hill, sometimes they were choked. but it was used to get them to comply. i think god weeps when you think about the wrong that's been done. of course he does. >> reporter: the owner of pinehaven said these allegations are not true. >> i'm not saying they lied. i think this is their perception of what they say happened as they look back on it. and i can't answer their perception. >> reporter: james mason was a child at pinehaven, entering at age 13, staying for six years. >> first time i was choked was in april of 1995. it was in my bedroom. >> reporter: mason was then 14 years old when he said he was physically disciplined by one of the house parents after being accused of misbehaving. >> and at that point he lifted me up by my neck against the door, and held me up until i pretty much went limp. and i was subdued, and i was contained, and i was no longer a threat, as much as a 14-year-old can be to a former army full grown man. >> reporter: melissa was also a child at pinehaven, and dealt with a very same house parent. >> he picked me up by the -- under my neck. just like at my trachea. and he's about 6'2". and i'm about 5-foot nothing, i'm maybe 4'10". and he picked me up by my throat and slammed me down on the kitchen table. >> reporter: the house parent they are talking about is named ned kent. who still works at pinehaven. >> some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> reporter: what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve ends are real close -- >> show me. where on my body. >> like right there. right there. >> so you would do it with two hands on one hand? >> usually just one. >> you would put your hands on pressure points? what was the purpo of that? >> to stop them from flailing or to stop them from hitting somebody, or to stop them from whatever behavior they happened to be doing at the time. >> could that not be interpreted as choking, an adult putting presh you on a child? >> i suppose it could be. >> do you still do that? >> no. we've been told we cannot do that. so we don't do that anymore. >> reporter: bob larsson said he was the one that told bob kent no more pressure points. >> i had my hair in a ponytail and he grabbed me by the ponytail and dragged me up the stairs. >> reporter: he introduced us to some former students that say the accusations of abuse are not true. >> no, there was tough love. but there was nothing cruel or unusual. i mean, tough love means separating people from drugs and alcohol and bad influences that brought them to pinehaven in the first place. >> like if i wouldn't have gone there, i would have had a criminal record. i would have been into a bunch of something i shouldn't have. it gave me a better place to be. i'm thankful for it. it literally saved my life. >> reporter: but the accusations of abuse are detailed and numerous. for bob larsson, there's a reason. why do you think people are saying such bad things? >> ultimately we only have one enemy who wants to defeat the good in the world and that is sattan. he tries to stop the works of god and cause the evil that keeps going on that will happen. i think that he influences people. the bible says he's the father of lies, and people sometimes believe his lies. >> so you think that people are saying bad things because they're fluxed by satan? >> that is what's happening, yes. >> who are the authorities responsible for checking out the abuse allegations? who's making sure the teachers and other school officials are qualified? you may be surprised what gary found out. we'll be right back. donuts, don! who are these guys? oh, that's just my buds. bacon, donuts. -my taste buds. -[ taste buds ] waffles. how about we try this new kind of fiber one cereal? you think you're going to slip some fiber by us? rookie. okay. ♪ nutty csters and almonds, ♪ ♪ almonds. ♪ fiber one is gonna make you smile. ♪ [ male announcer ] introducing new fiber one nutty clusters and almonds. with 43% daily value of fiber for you. crunchy nutty clusters and real almond slices for your taste buds. and real♪ mond slices you want to save money on car insurance? no problem. you want to save money on rv insurance? no problem. you want to save money on motorcycle insurance? no problem. you want to find a place to park all these things? fuggedaboud it. this is new york. hey little guy, wake up! aw, come off it mate! geico. saving people money on more than just car insurance. more on the special report ungodly discipline. let's go back to montana to the school facing disturbing accusations. it's all perfectly legal, but the question is, is the lack of oversight safe for the students. we're going to let you decide. here's part two of gary tuchman's investigation. >> reporter: bob larsson is a christian preacher. and founder of the pinehaven christian children's ranch in northwestern montana. >> i was raised that way. i don't know if you were. clean up your plate, don't waste anything. >> reporter: there are about 40 children and teenagers at the ranch right now. some have troubled pasts, others have troubled families. >> they know when they come, they sign a form of acceptance for coming, that says i understand that this is a christian program. i do believe in god. i believe jesus is the son of god. and the bible is the word of god. and i have no objection to being taught along those lines. >> reporter: but many former students have objections to what they recall was physical abuse at the ranch. >> choking was to be expected at some points. the nerves under my chin, when i went to the marine corps, were dead. >> reporter: former student melissa said one of bob larsson's employees -- >> picked me up under this section of my throat here, and lifted me up and slammed me down on the kitchen table, and basically held me down and told me that i was a drug addict and i was never going to amount to anything. >> reporter: some former employees at the ranch say they witnessed such abuse. >> i know that it caused extreme pain, because when i saw the kids were wrenching and screaming because of the pain of what had happened. >> reporter: bob larsson says satan is behind the more than one dozen former students or teachers we talked to who allege abuse. >> they persecuted christ and he was perfect. i know i'm not perfect. the bible said you can expect this to happen. >> reporter: a longtime employee and house parent ned kent. >> some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve endings are real close -- >> show me. where on my body. >> like right there. >> show me. >> right there. >> reporter: ned kent claims he does not do it anymore. but who are the authorities responsible for checking out such allegations. let's tell you a little bit more about hin haven christian children's ranch. it is unregulated, unlicensed, unaccredited, its teachers are uncertified by the state of montana. the state is required to oversee public and private schools, but not religious schools. who oversees pinehaven? pinehaven oversees pinehaven. who is responsible to make sure that the teachers are good, your counselors are good, and your kids behave? >> i am. >> reporter: larsson says he has the teachers licensed out of state, but not in montana. which is one of many states where government has no oversight of religious schools. the montana legislature considered a bill to require religious school oversight. but this former state legislator fought the attempt to regulate pinehaven. >> the truth is, i did not know the breadth and depth of what was going on at pinehaven. >> reporter: but now former representative jeanne windham is trying to get the legislature to reverse that vote because she believes pinehaven has abused children. >> that doesn't sound very christian to me. >> reporter: larsson acknowledges unpleasant problems in the past. a former pinehaven employee was accused of raping two underage students. he pled guilty and went to prison. could trained and licensed staff have spotted clues in that teacher's behavior? could they have helped to prevent other horrifying situations such as this one? james mason said he was sodomized by another student. >> i was raped. i never told anybody that. he threatened me with pliers to my throat and to my testicles if i would ever tell anybody. >> reporter: this is former student brian dare, who says he was also raped by a pinehaven student. >> i started cutting myself after that. i stole some wire from the shop we were working in, and would cut my inner thighs. because that was the only place they wouldn't see it. i would just cut and cut and cut. because it was the only -- pain, physical pain felt better than the mental pain that i was going through. >> reporter: two years ago, a sheriff's office detective in lake county, montana, investigated abuse allegations against pinehaven. no charges were filed. but the case files indicate only one alleged victim was interviewed. we talked to the detective's boss, sheriff jay doyle, who was elected sheriff after the case was closed. >> it can be reopened. there are alleged victims out there that may or may not have come forward, and if they wish to come forward, and report a crime, we will look into it. >> what would be wrong if the state of montana looked over the school? >> because it is an arm of the church, it would be unconstitutional. >> you see it would make some people breathe easier, perhaps some parents -- >> send your kids somewhere else. they don't have to send them here. >> part three of gary's investigation, next. granola thins.nouncer ] from nature valley. crispy granola, layered with creamy peanut butter or rich dark chocolate flavor. 90 calories. 100% natural. and nature...approves. granola thins. from nature valley. nature at its most delicious. welcome back. our special report ungodly discipline continues with more in the small boarding school in northwestern montana. we'll told you of allegations of abuse at the school which is exempt from state oversight. in part three of his report, gary tuchman expes to what amounts to a pipeline between five counties in illinois and montana's pinehaven christian children's ranch. dozens of kids it turns out from illinois have ended up at pinehaven, steered there all by the same truant officer. it happened to a teen named cassie against her mother's wishes. now her mom wants to pull her out of pinehaven but can't. here's gary's report. >> reporter: paula of illinois is the mother of seven children. what is the name of your youngest daughter? >> cassie castill. >> reporter: how old is cassie? >> she just turned 16. >> reporter: she said her daughter was raped by a relative. and that cassie had tried to kill herself. >> she took a bottle full of pills. and she was placed into harsha. >> harsha is? >> a behavioral center in illinois. >> reporter: she said one day a truant officer from her town made a trip to that behavioral center to visits cassie and recommended she transfer to a very different place. >> cassie called me, she was crying, she said, mommy, i just made a mistake. >> what's her mistake? >> i asked her what happened, and she says, i just signed the papers to go to pinehaven. >> reporter: paula bowen said without her permission, her daughter was then whisked away. more than 1,800 miles to rural montana, to the pinehaven children's christian ranch, and that's where we met her. what's your name? >> cassie. >> reporter: bob larsson is a preacher and founder of pinehaven. >> the two biggest reasons that kids come are broken homes, and they didn't have the normal home background and training with a dad and a mom, and failing adoptions. >> reporter: paula bowen admits she's had serious problems with her life, including imprisonment. but says she doesn't want her daughter at pinehaven because of allegations from former employees at the ranch, like denise and dave bingham, that children were choked and hit in the name of god. >> the kids were being abused at pinehaven. >> reporter: allegations backed by former students who said they were choked and hit, not by bob larsson, but people who worked for bob larsson. what would they do to you? >> push up, grab the neck up against the wall, lift you off your feet. >> reporter: if paula bowen was worried by what she heard, why not pull cassie out? because she can't. an illinois judge approved the truant officer's recommendation and signed a court order declaring it is in the best interests of the minor to remove the minor from the custody of the parent, guardian or custodian. you said to these people, if you're sending my daughter away, please send her close to me. don't send her to the state of montana, which is a good way across the country. >> right. >> and they said? >> she signed the papers. >> did you say she's a 15-year-old child? >> yes. it's a binding contract. they held her to it. >> reporter: this is the truant officer. >> my job is to get kids that are missing school back in school. and then intervene with court services, court related services. >> reporter: it was charlie duke's idea for cassie to go to pinehaven. why? he believes in the ranch's religious philosophy. he also considers the founder a surrogate father. >> nothing in the entire region in the country comes close to pinehaven. >> reporter: this five-county area is very quiet, low profile. but it has the most unusual export. children. cassie is one of at least 29 children who over the years have been sent from this region to montana's pinehaven christian children's ranch. this area is a pipeline to pinehaven. charlie duke gets the approval of prosecutors and judges to make it happen. to a facility with abuse allegations and employees without any certification or licensing from the state of montana. >> i personally know teachers that are there that are certified teachers from the state of illinois. >> but they're in montana. the point is these kids are troubled and they need counseling. >> there is no one trained to counsel them. does that bother you? >> i believe they get the counseling they need. when they have a nuclear family structure -- >> i understand they have that structure, but i'm asking you, as a public servant here in illinois, you operate by rules and regulations of the state, do you think they should have licensed counselors at pinehaven? >> i really feel like you're trying to trap me into saying something -- >> you can say no. >> i'm not even comfortable talking about it. >> you can say no or you don't know. >> i don't know. >> reporter: charlie duke says he doesn't believe the abuse allegations. but we showed him a videotape of one of the current ranch employees, ned kent, telling us this. >> some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> what is it that you did to them?