so now people are taking everything he says seriously, whether he likes it or not. as to whether you like what he's saying or not, that's entirely up to you. keeping them honest, whatever political position you happen to have, the question for herman cain or anyone wanting to be president is this, can you be a serious candidate without serious scrutiny of what you say and how you say it? here's what he said saturday about illegal immigration. >> i tell you what, when i'm in charge of the fence, we're going to have a fence, it will be 20 feet high and have barbed wire on the top, it will be electrocuted -- electrified. and there's going to be a sign on the other side that said, it will kill you. >> herman cain at a campaign stop in tennessee on saturday. sunday on "meet the press," he said, just joking. >> on immigration, you said it at an event in tennessee that you would build an electrified fence on the border that could kill people if they try to cross illegally. >> that's a joke, david. >> it's a joke. >> that's a joke. >> that's not a serious plan. >> that's not a serious plan, no, it's not. >> you got a big laugh. >> that's a joke. i've also said that america needs to get a sense of humor. that was a joke, okay? >> the head of the congressional hispanic caucus today not laughing. texas democrat charlie gonzalez saying, quote, whether or not he made his comments in jest, mr. cain's words show a lack of understanding of the immigration issues our country is facing and a staggering lack of sensitivity. mr. cain's opponent michele bachmann also weighing in today calling the issue, "no laughing matter." whatever you think of it this isn't the first time that mr. cain's tried to get a laugh out of the issue. here is an appearance back in june. >> we put a man on the moon. it might be part great wall and part electrical technology. you know. i was describing my fence to somebody tonight. got a call and said that's insistent. i said, what's insistent? i said put energy on the fence. it will be a 20-foot wall, barbed wire, electrified on the top. and on this side of the fence i'd have that moat that president obama talked about and put alligators in that moat. >> that was in june. two months later herman cain saying lighten up. >> you upped the ante with a 20-foot barbed wire electrified fence. were you serious? >> america has got to learn how to take a joke. >> now, it's pretty clear that herman cain is neither a professional politician or a polished candidate. he makes no claim that he is. in fact, takes pride in the fact that he's not. last month he told supporters that political correctness is not one of his strong points, then went on to prove it with more remarks about illegal immigrants. if we can keep a dog in a yard with an invisible fence, don't you think we can keep people from sneaking into this country. now i know i'm going to get written up for talking about putting, you know, invisible fences and treating illegal immigrants like dogs. but it's not just dogs, fences and immigrants, a few years back the subject was tiger woods. this was pre9 iron, predivorce. touting tiger woods as presidential material. he wrote, the republican party should begin grooming him now for a run at the white house. his personal attributes and accomplishments on the golf course point to a candidate who he about a problem solver, not a politician. sunday he said -- wait for it -- >> that was a joke. >> that was a joke? >> that was a joke, okay? that was a joke. america's got to learn how to have a sense of humor, okay? >> it sounds pretty serious. >> i can be pretty serious, but also there's some things that, you know, you just kind of take tongue in cheek and you don't make a big deal out of it. all right? >> earlier this evening herman cain spoke with john king about his immigration remarks. >> john, yeah, i haven't learned how to be politically correct yet. so, yes, it probably wasn't the right thing to say. and i did not mean to offend anybody. >> so cain certainly not backing down as he also does in south carolina he mentioned his lack of political correctness as a virtue if not a badge of honor. will it hurt or help him in the primaries and potentially further down the road? let's talk about it with gloria borger, ari fleischer. you can follow him on twitter @arifleischer. also with us, republican strategist mary matalin and bill burton, who is president obama's former deputy press secretary. bill, thank you for being with us as well. mary, is this much ado about nothing? is it the problem that america doesn't have a sense of human or the media doesn't? or that herman cain -- >> he needs to -- the surge for him is serious. it is an attraction to a message that is the 75% of the people that still don't support mitt romney. he needs to stay a happy warrior. but he needs to get serious. it is not politically correct to have to answer questions about particularly the 9% sales tax, or you don't have to know the name of the president of uzbekistan, but you need to have clear foreign policy principles. so you can get away with that when you're the third man or you're just one of eight, but when he's the front-runner, he's got to put some flesh on the funny. >> what about that, ari? he says that people need to lighten up and not take everything he says as seriously as -- you know, why can't he make a joke? >> he's right, but up to a limit, up to a ceiling. because if you're going to become, as mary says, a serious presidential contender, you have to go beyond the lines of make a crowd whoop and cheer and you have to be presidential. and i think what herman cain is going to have to find is that happy medium between not being politically correct, one of his strengths and exciting on the campaign trail, his blunt straight speech. you don't offend people and don't try to kill people which is what electric fences do. he went too far, he needs to pull it back but still not be politically correct. >> i don't think you tell the american people they need to have a sense of humor. you don't tell. >> that line got a big applause, though, at the last debate. >> it did. but we're in the state of nevada. you want to tell hispanics here in this state that they ought to have a sense of humor about immigration policy in this is a candidate who is being vet on the campaign trail. we don't know a lot about him. we'll learn more about him. he's gone from the lowest tier to the top tier. and he's somebody who's attractive for people who are looking for a straight shooter, somebody who talks plainly, but he's got to learn what he says now that he has a lot of implications. can you imagine if a president of the united states had said what herman cain said about that fence? what would that be? >> bill burton, do you agree with that, that he needs to dial it back? >> well, you know, i've been surprised at herman cain's rise. it's sort of astounding to see someone who has a tax plan that's so regressive as his play such a role in the republican primary. but i agree with mary, his rise says more about the 75% of the republican pramry go hes who don't like mitt romney, than it is about herman cane. you look at the string of fairly unserious statements that he's made. you look at his policies, and you think, is this really the answer for the republican party? astoundingly actually more people in the republican party think that he is compared to mitt romney who is the perceived front-runner in washington right now. >> but ari, i think you raise an important point. i was hearing people on twitter saying the same thing. they like the bluntness of herman cain. in a field of polished candidates, and some may say overpolished candidates, he stands out as being this blunt guy. >> this is a year where people are fed up with washington and the blow-dried-hair ways of washington. cain has tapped into that. he's tapped into pushing back against political correctness. but you have to push back cleverly, you have to push back in a way that's presidential. that's the line he has to walk. it's also a lesson, anderson, in when you run for president, how hard it is, how many rookies make mistakes. the trick is do you learn from them and go on to a higher, more presidential level? >> mary, is he really running for president? because there's some who say he's basically on a large book tour and he's now suddenly surged in the poll, so he's clearly in this thing. does he have staff, does he have enough people around him? >> well, no. he has the big mo, as one of our old bosses used to say, but he's a no show in the states. i don't care what your message is -- and he has a superior message, although it's not fleshed out. you have to have -- to get people in the dead of winter, for four hours to a caucus in iowa, that's not an organic event. you have to have an organization. everybody is dismissing perry. he has a very solid apparition on the ground in south carolina and cain does not have those things in place any more. that's not to say he is very use useful in the field, and his message is appropriate for conservatives in this race. and it's not just getting serious or getting political, people don't like politicians, they want some subject area expertise. they don't want -- they want some knowledge in there. >> that's why mitt romney, of course, keeps saying that he's a businessman and he's an outsider, because that's the appeal of the cain. i love hearing bill burton say, oh, the cain rise tells you something about mitt romney because, of course, the white house thinks that mitt romney would be the toughest to beat. so whatever -- the rise of herman cain is really about mitt romney, it's not about herman cain. >> it is amazing, gloria. >> yeah. >> just amazing that mitt romney's been running for president for five years. he spent tens of millions of dollars and his support just has hit the ceiling. people in the republican primary just have a fundamental concern with mitt romney, for whatever reason it is. i think that a guy like herman cain being able to step into the fold and get as much support as mitt romney is fairly amazing. >> do you agree that this is some sort of commentary on the front-runners? >> no question about it. there's still the anti-romney element out there in the republican party, but anderson, it almost doesn't matter. that's always the case in a multi-candidate field. as long as you have seven or eight candidates, the front-runner will only have 25 frs or 30%. that's math. it will eventually go down where romney has 30, 35 plurality and that's how you get a winner. >> cain has twice as much support among tea party voters than mitt romney. you see where his support is coming from. he's taking it away from perry and bachmann. and even paul. >> we'll talk about rick perry coming up tonight. thank you for joining us, stick around. we'll have a lot more with you this hour. next, more about the people who are pushing herman cain to the top of the polls. who are the fans of herman cain? let us know what you think on facebook. follow me on twitter @andersoncooper. i'll try to be tweeting in this hour. later, the people who made mitt romney's religion an issue in the campaign. will it lose him the evangelical vote and what does it mean to be a mormon? 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[ male announcer ] write your story with the new citi simplicity card. no late fees. no penalty rate. no worries. get started at citisimplicity.com. now more on herman cain. he's surging in the polls thanks in large part to his 9-9-9 plan. tomorrow night could be a time for him to solidify his spot in the race. with raw politics, here's gary tuchman. >> no more entitlements. no more entitlements. >> say this about herman cain, he's running a different sort of a campaign for the republican nomination. >> i want to leave you with something special i haven't done all day. ♪ amazing grace ♪ will always be >> reporter: singing spirituals isn't new for cain. the georgia native is a recorded gospel singer and an associate baptist minister. what is new is his front-runner status. now cain, who has not done much traditional campaigning, is beginning to do just that. >> he's not a politician. he's a businessman. he can get it done. >> reporter: for many, the idea that cain is an outsider is part of his appeal. at tennessee tech university in cookeville, tennessee, cain declared he liked this banner. honkies for herman. >> i'm sure some of your neighbors and friends and colleagues or family member, you're going to one of those tea party rallies? yeah. they're trying to intimidate you to stay home. but aren't they a bunch of racists? well -- >> no! >> when i looked in the mirror this morning i was black. >> reporter: over the weekend cain barnstormed through tennessee attending six rallies. there are fewer than 20,000 people who live here in humphreys county, tennessee. but this turnout is huge, particularly for an area where so few people live. >> all of a sudden the long shot isn't such a long shot any more. how about them apples? >> i like romney, and if he gets the nomination, i'll support him. but i think that herman cain is more in touch with what the people want. >> he seems to be a straight shooter, and just like some of the conservative views that he's putting out there. >> i think he's more like me than anyone else running, and i vote for him. >> reporter: tell me why you think he's more like yourself than anyone running. >> he's a country folk. >> reporter: a lot of people tell us this they like you because you're plain spoken. a man of the people. in '76 they said that about jimmy carter. >> yeah. >> reporter: any comparisons that you see there? >> no comparison at all. >> reporter: cain himself likes to compare himself to ronald reagan and talks about the shining city on the hill and sees himself as an economic savior. >> it's called the 9-9-9 plan. >> reporter: cain's 9-9-9 tax plan is also now a madison avenue style catch phrase. >> i like the 9-9-9 plan, especially the sales tax part of it. >> reporter: herman cain says he's in it to win it. ♪ >> reporter: as he fry tries to get those who doubt the viability of his candidacy to change their tune. ♪ >> i love you. >> gary tuchman joins us now. we've seen the reaction there from the crowd. were people surprised to hear him singing, or is that just part of what makes him different? >> i think people were surprised, but i think it was a very shrewd move. i don't expect to see other candidates singing, dancing or doing card tricks on the campaign trail. but it worked for him particularly in the bible belt. people got very inspired. i saw one guy as herman cain finish run up to the stage, herman, herman, herman, come back. some guy said to him, what are you running for? and the guy held up a handful of money. i want to give herman cain $200 right now. it seemed to work for him in tennessee. >> gary, appreciate it. tomorrow's debate could be pivotal to the cain campaign. what does he need to do to maybe solidify his base and win over undecided voters? back us with is gloria borger. and let us bring in john king. are you surprised about the rise of herman cain? everyone is surprised. >> absolutely. you have to tip your hat because of his discipline, the 9-9-9 plan. however we're about to learn more about him. at the debate tomorrow you'll treat him as a viable candidate. in the other debate he was in single digits. the stakes are different now. the plan is being scrutinized. a lot of the people in gary's piece saying i really like him, if he stays at this point in polls, his opponents will start running ads against him. you like it? you'll pay more taxes under him. i had a conversation with him earlier today, and he concedes some people will pay more. and the people most likely to pay more, if this passes, mind you, are the people who have been hurt the most by recession already. are those people -- >> who are not earning enough right now to pay taxes. >> perot type supporters. the appeal of ross perot, they know if he's elected, he'll raise you know what in washington. they like that. the question is is there a ceiling? and i suspect yes. >> in terms of his organization -- >> what organization? there isn't any organization. sort of a back of the envelope campaign. you mentioned before like a book tour. it's kind of a book tour. i think the more credible he gets, the more republican strategists you're going to see want to come on board. but i don't think he has a credible campaign at this point. what he has is good debate performances. people like him because he comes across as the anti-politician. he's almost the anti-romney if you will. >> interesting because i was doing research reading the transcripts of all the debates. two candidates will be arguing about something, then he will come in and say, well, i don't care about the arguments. here's how you fix it. it always gets a big applause. >> he's a turnaround guy. if you talk to the head of pillsbury who hired him to turn around godfather's pizza. he's a doer. the question is, though, he doesn't have many foreign policy answers. as people start to view him more as a president, will that be the problem he faces? and again, if you look at the appeal of a ross perot, he did very well. he got 20 million votes in general election where he can pay to put himself on the ballot. herman cain can't do that. he's not on the ballot in many states. tennessee has zero impact on the republican nominating process, because it's so far down the road. >> right. >> why are you there? >> right. >> part of it is book signings and he's making money selling his book. he's lost some staffers. people resigned in iowa, in new hampshire. >> i did read a quote from somebody on his campaign saying we're doing the strategy that president obama did back in the general election which is running a national campaign and kind of shoring up long term. >> i don't think he can do that. >> obama went to south dakota which actually voted early and a lot of people said, why do you want those delegates. and against hillary clinton it turned out to be the right approach. he doesn't have the fund-raising. >> you're saying it's purely about selling books. >> it's not about being a president. maybe it's bad strategy. i don't want to read his mind. >> he doesn't have the discipline that a presidential candidate needs. he's fond of saying, i don't have the facts to back this up but -- well, you can't say that when you're a presidential candidate. >> some people will find it refreshing, at least he admits, i don't have the facts on this but says his opinion whereas a lot of candidates will say something as if it's fact when they don't have the facts. >> in my experience, it's a good idea when you're a presidential candidate you want to say something because you want people to believe you and follow you, this is what i've learned from traveling the country and here's why and here are the facts and here's why 9-9-9 will work for you and here's why it will reduce your ta