evidence in fact it can be hurtful and harmful. for days now congresswoman bachmann and her husband refused to answer questions about it. but today in minneapolis star tribune he defends the clinicses saying he and others do not deny they have tried to help homosexuals become heteroswals but it's not a specialty service and only at the client as request. will i address it? certainly. we'll talk about it. adding is it a remedy form that i typically would use? it is at the client's distropical depression. five years ago he flat out denied his counselling service engaged in reparative statement. the most he would say about it back then, "if someone is interested in talking to us about their homosexuality we're open to talking about that. if someone comes in a homosexual and they want to stay homosexual i don't have a problem with that". he says "reparative therapy is not a focus at bachmann and associates". but according to an undercover video by truth wins out, in the lobby of one of bachmann's clinics they offer this book written by janet boynes who claims to be a former lesbian and cured herself of same sex attractions. martin bachmann recommends the book saying "she speaks to the heart of the matter and gives practical insights of truth to set people free". here's one of several hidden camera conversations a man posing as a client for truth wins out had with one of the clinic counselors. >> what would you suggest to me like a treatment plan type of thing? >> you can definitely pray. >> you can actually leave homosexuality and completely become heterosexual? >> oh, yeah, definitely i believe all about that. and if it happens, yeah. it really has. >> well, counselor at bachmann and associates suggesting he pray the gay way, suggesting it's worked before. we interviewed a man named andrew ramirez also who says he encountered similar suggestions back in 2004 as a client at the clinic. he spoke recently about it with cnn's jim acosta. >> it was therapy that would help me change from being homosexual to straight. >> that's how he described it? >> yes. >> he basically said if you do this, what? you wouldn't be gay anymore? >> if i did this and worked his therapy program, god could perform a miracle and i could no longer be gay. >> ramirez says he was assigned a therapy program consisting of prayer of reading bible passages. he also says he was told he would be men toward by an ex-lesbian minister. and if none of that worked, ramirez says, the counselor had another idea. >> he suggested to you what? >> not acting out on my same-sex attractions and living a life of celibacy. >> that was an alternative to being gay? >> right. >> that was in 2004. now, in 2006 mr. bachmann denied his practice specialized in such therapy. today he says it's only done at the client's request. congresswoman bachmann continues to remain silent on the issues of the clinics which she coowns but she's had plenty to say about her dislike of homosexuality. >> this is an earthquake issue. this will change our state forever. because the immediate consequence, if gay marriage goes through, is that k-12 little children will be forced to learn that homosexuality is normal, natural, and perhaps they should try it. >> if you're involved in the gay and lesbian lifestyle, it's bondage. it is personal bondage, personal despair and personal enslavement. this is not funny. it's a very sad life. it's part of satan, i think, to say that this is gay. it's anything but gay. it's profoundly sad to recognize that almost all, if not all, individuals who have gone into the lifestyle have been abused at one time in their life, either by a male or by a female". >> she didn't provide any evidence of that. michele bachmann over the years. marcus bachmann has also weighed in on a christian radio show and that's caused some controversy. his words stirred up a storm because they suggested he was likening gay teenagers to bar barance. but he now tells the star tribune his remarks have been taken out of context. in fact he says that recording was actually doctored. keeping them honest, the recording shows no technical signs of editing and a host of the radio program agrees. here's the clip as it ran. >> there's that curiosity. but again, we -- like you know, it is as if we have to understand barbarians need to be educated. they need to be disciplined. and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we're supposed to go down that road. >> now, mr. bachmann is saying now he was comparing kids to bar barance. the radio host agrees. here's a fuller version of the clip. and you can decide for yourself. >> welcome back to point of view. dr. marcus bachmann is my guest. the time is going way too fast. i have so many questions for you, dr. bachmann. this one since you also pay attention to the culture wars, this has been swirling around lately because of this particular letter that came down from the american college of pediatricians cautioning schools to stop promoting homosexual identity to children. and yesterday the "wall street journal" came out with an article. what do you say when your teenager says she's gay? what do you say to christian parents who come up with this? >> well, i think you clearly say what is the understanding of god's word on homosexuality. and i think that this is no mystery that a child or preadolescent particularly adolescent will question and wonder about sexuality. that's noting in under the sun since the beginning of time. >> yeah. >> but i don't think we should take that -- because we wonder or we think or we question, does that take us down the road of homosexuality? >> could you add the word experiment to that? >> well, certainly. there's that curiosity. but again, we, we -- like you know, it is as if we have to understand barbarians need to be educated. they need to be disciplined. and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we're supposed to go down that road. >> you can decide for yourself what mr. bachmann meant by that statement. our jim acosta did the initial story of the reporting. he joins us now. jim, marcus bachman says in the interview today with the minneapolis star tribune that converting gay patients is not a special interest of his clinic, it would only be attempted at the client's request. on that truth wins out video it does seem like the guy who made the undercover tape said to the counselor me was interested in changing his orientation which got the conversation going. the family of the young man you spoke to who went in town 4, what did he say about that? >> that young man we interviewed for our story earlier this week said he and his mother turned to bachmann and associates for counselling after being referred to the clinic by a friend. ramirez says they were told bachmann was a place to turn for teenagers who wanted to change from gay to straight. and you mention that photo taken by gay rights activist who went into the bachmann clinic undercover. it is a picture of that book you said written by a self-described ex lesbian named janet boynes. in her book she claims she was able to use her faith to change her sexual orientation to straight. and above that book is an endorsement from marcus bachmann. not to mention that interview you just played from the radio, the host asked dr. bachmann what parents should do if their teenagers believe they're gay. >> and jim, bachmann also didn't deny this kind of therapy is going on at his clinic but it's not in any way accepted therapy by any mainstream medical organization or psychological organization. >> that's right, aernd aernd. a therapy aimed at changing a person's sexual orientation is frowned upon by mental health experts. bachmann says he's not seeking clients who want this kind of therapy but the guidelines from the american psychological association are pretty clear as to what counselors should do when a patient with this issue comes for help. here's a statement from that group that's pretty clear. it says "there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation". and the group says that that kind of therapy, reparative therapy, can do harm to patients. >> and michele bachmann still kind of remaining silent on this whole thing, right? >> that's right. the campaign is not saying much. a spokesperson sent out a statement to me this evening saying "mr. bachmann has spoken. the bachmann for president campaign is focused on the issues that people are concerned about, jobs, the economy" and no more on the subject for now, anderson. i tried to ask michele bachmann about this at a press conference on wednesday and there was no response. >> all right. jim acost tax appreciate the reporting. there's a political dimension to the story. congresswoman bachmann is riding high in the polls especially in iowa where christian conservatives frequently dominate republican caucuses. i talked about the impact the story not have with ari fleischer. we spoke earlier. >> paul, do you believe mr. bachmann's explanation that this isn't the focus of his clinic though he doesn't deny that he and his counselors would try reparative therapy and have tried it? do you buy that -- his explanation? because in the investigation that was done by that group with the hidden camera, i mean, in his lobby they are selling a book by somebody who claims to be ex-gay talking about getting out of being gay. >> well, his position seems to be, i will practice a crack pot theory if people ask me to practice a crack pot theory. what if somebody comes in and says, will you try santoria or voodoo or astrolly? would he adopt them? that's what this is. the notion -- first of all they call it reparative like your sexual identity is like a muffler or something. take it into the shop and repair it. it's a crack pot theory and bigotry. having said that, i do think democrats in the left have to be careful here. he's not the candidate. i never like going after people's spouses. i really don't. she owns a piece of the clinic. it's legitimate. i'm more interested in that piece of it, asksmrs. bachmann, the congresswoman, the candidate about this. because i don't think that michelle obama or cindy mccain for that matter or theresa heinz kerry, there's a long history of spouses being mistreated in these campaigns. i don't want marcus bachmann to be mistreated but i want michele bachmann to tell us does she believe it this crack pot, bigoted theory. >> a couple of days ago we did this story mainly because michele bachmann was refusing to answer questions about it when asked point blank and seemingly mr. bachmann's statements -- she's a coe owner and his statements didn't seem to be squaring up with what his former patients were telling us. >> anderson, if somebody came up to me and said they were gay and they wanted to have advice on how not to be gay, i would say why on earth would you ask for that? you should be proud of who you are. end of story. but if somebody goes to a christian counselling clinic and says, i need help. i don't want to be gay. i want to be something else. that really is between the person who goes to that clinic, a christian clinic, and whoever the practitioners are on the other end. in this case a christian advisor. so i think you do have to be careful here. it's almost as if somebody of a faith goes to their priest and asks for advice about their own practices. for those of us who aren't belong to that it's a little hard to weigh in. and i think when it comes to spouses especially it's not the candidate. and they don't -- should not get treated by the same rules that apply to candidates. >> but mrs. bachmann should answer the question. do you believe in this crack pot, bigoted theory that there's somehow something to be repaired if you're gay? i can't even say it without laughing because it's such a crack pot theory. congresswoman bachmann apparently participates in the profits of this clinic. in fact the clinic apparently gets state and federal assistance, which is kind of interesting of an anti-government conservative. she should have to answer whether she supports that kind of bigotry. >> well, first of all, it's medicaid. so when paul makes that case i guess what he's saying is only democrats should be able to receive medicaid funds. no republicans. which is nonsense. secondly, i think when it comes to these very sensitive and social issues, we have to be careful before we put ourselves in other people's shoes. i don't think it's out of the norm for somebody to say, i want to change who i am. and if they do, i told you what my answer would be. i would say, you don't need to. why should you? but if somebody wanted, to and that's what the case here was, who among us has the right to say to them, if that's what you really want, you're not eligible to have it from anybody in any way if that's what you want. i don't think any of us have metaphysical certainty about these issues. what we should have is respect. and i think you have to leave it on the side. leave it alone especially when there are so many other issues dealing with the jobs and the deficit. and that's what this election is about. >> then you're no longer practicing therapy. you're no longer practicing psychological counselling. you may be practicing a religion or some sort of pledge dis, you may be practicing something but you should not be getting medicaid funding to practice healthcare, mental health care in this case, if what you're doing is pursuing -- >> it's a christian counselling -- it's a christian counselling program. and paul, what you'd be saying is no con selling program of any religious nature should be able to receive federal funds. >> they shouldn't -- >> if that's the case you want to make, that's a big different case to make. this is a christian facility. and they take medicaid patients. not necessarily for this procedure or treatment or whatever you want to call is. >> there's no evidence they're using medicaid payments for reparative therapy. >> she should be asked about this theory. she's a candidate for president. one out of ten americans is gay. she should be asked if she wants to lead a country where at least 10% of us are gay or lesbian, what does she believe in this crack pot, bigoted theory that somehow there's something to be repaired in our brothers and sisters and sons and daughters who happen to be born gay. >> we'll have more with paul and ari after the break. the debt showdown president weighing in, republicans speaking out. polling the president used in support of his policies. frankly the president's numbers simply don't add up. we'll show you that. we're on facebook follow me on twitter @ anderson cooper. later thousands of protestors in cairo's liberation square. this isn't video from the egyptian uprising this winter. these are new protests. we'll tell you why they're happening now. 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[ announcer ] we are insurance. ♪ we are farmers bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm back in the saddle again ♪ ♪ out where a friend is a friend ♪ [ gulps ] ♪ where the longhorn cattle feed ♪ ♪ on the lowly gypsum weed ♪ back in the saddle again see how affordable an rv vacation can be. visit gorving.com and watch a free video. go affordably. go rving. duelling press conferences today each side demanding the other side get serious. >> i'm glad congressional leaders don't want to default. but i think the american people expect we actually try to solve this problem, we get our fiscal house in order. >> time and again republicans have offered serious proposals to cut spending and address these issues. and i think it's time for the democrats to get serious as well. >> president obama repeated his call for a so-called grand bargain on revenue and spending. speaker boehner claiming a tax increase could not make it through the house. >> right now this economy is ailing. and we don't believe, nor do i think the american people believe, that raising taxes is the answer. >> the american people understand that tax hikes destroy jobs. >> i think what the american people appreciate is that you don't reinvigorate the economy by raising taxes. >> 80% of the american people do not want to see taxes raised. >> the president's answer? let's raise taxes on job creators. mr. president, the american people don't want that. >> the american people don't want us to raise taxes. >> well, last night we showed you numbers from gallup and others demonstrator that's just not true. most americans women in fact support certain tax increases to lower the debt. only 20% in a recent gallup poll favors spending cuts only. president obama mentioned that poll today. but keeping him honest, his numbers didn't quite add up. here's what he said. listen. >> you have 80% of the american people who support a balanced approach. 80% of the american people is up support an approach that includes revenues and includes cuts. so the notion that somehow the american people aren't sold is not the problem. >> in fact a large majority does support a mix but not 80% as the president said. here's the poll again. it does show only 20% support for spending sus only. add up the number for some kinds of mix and cuts in taxes and you get 69%, not the 80% the president said. he also alluded to the same poll when he said that 65% of republicans support that grand bargain. he reportedly struck with speaker boehner before the speaker backed away from it. in fact the poll doesn't ask specifically about the deal, only about a mix of taxes and spending cuts. i talked about all the budget maneuvering again today with paul begala and ari fleischer. >> both sides trying to get in front of this. at this point does it look like the white house is making a dent in this battle? >> certainly from the polling, and sorry to be so political but i'm a political hack. that's why i'm on. the president, there's a quinnipiac poll that came out today the president has a 14 point advantage. he's shown the most political courage. he has put medicare cuts on the table. 78% of americans oppose cuts in medicare. but he's put that on the table. he's apparently put social security on the table. the republicans won't even put low-hanging fruit like tax breaks for oil companies and for corporate jets on the table. so i think the american people are being fair. they're saying, look, if we have to take these cuts in programs we believe in we should will asks wealthy americans to pay a little bit more, too. that's where the president is. i think he's definitely on the right side of. this. >> ari, in terms of how both sides have been playing this, how do you assess it? >> well, number one, if president obama has put medicare and social security on the table, he's covered them with a table cloth. because nobody can see what he's talking about. you notice at his news conference today he ducked a question about whether he'd be willing to raise the retirement age. so far it's all fluff and rhetoric from the president and no specifics. in terms of how it's playing, the one big polling piece that we got this week was the president is now down by eight points in a generic poll to republican presidential nominee whoever it would be. that's a huge gap for the president and a step in the wrong direction. so this frankly is the ultimate pocks on all your houses issue. the poll is very frustrat