it on the front of the year book. >> was he self-taught? >> he taught himself. just a talent that he had. i can't say too much more about him, only his father was an artist too. he loved to paint and draw. i thought maybe he might have picked it up from him, but he had a natural talent for it, michael did. >> did he always paint throughout his life. was he always painting without being aware of it? >> yes, yes. when he was just a child, when we moved to havenhurst before we remodelled, it had a house in the back and he made that into an art studio for himself. >> what do you think the art brought him? painting. what did it give him? >> you know what, i really don't -- i can't answer that question, but sometimes when he's not doing anything, he would start painting and think that is a way of him relaxing. >> a bit of escape. >> yes. >> you got to know michael 25 years ago. tell me about how you met and about the art collection. it's something we don't know much about. >> we first met about 1979. through mayor bradley of los angeles. the first time that i had a chance to talk to michael, he said now you are a sculptor and said yes. what type of sculptor and i said i build monuments. i said i never met a monument builder before. i said what do you do, michael. he said i love life. he said i love life. i said that's a great job. i love life too. he said i'm an artist too and love to draw things that inspire my life. >> this collection, how many pieces are there in it? >> i have or we have 98. other people have some. there is maybe about 20 pieces i brought and he did artwork on the other side. i made the paper for michael in the 1980s, a special paper. they couldn't counterfeit it. he ran out of the paper. that's why i started doing artwork. >> some of the pieces here, the martin luther king picture, abraham lincoln and he painted a lot of former presidents. he loved to do that. >> he loved abraham lincoln and freedom and the whole aspect of people being free. artists being able to create beautiful things to inspire people like he wanted. >> katherine, he had a strange obsession with the number seven and with chairs. me why those two things in the pictures all the time. >> michael was a seventh child. his name had seven letters in it. he would always talk about that. the number seven means completeness in the bible. >> there is like a lucky number for him. >> for him. >> what about the chairs. why did he like draws or paining chairs? >> he an obsession with chairs. not a plain chair, but chairs that you see had a lot of art in it. a lot of curves and other things like that. he would draw. >> there is one prophetic picture of a little boy sitting on his own in a corner. just seeing it now on the screen. michael had written next to this in his handwriting before you judge me, try hard to love me. look within your heart and ask have you seen my childhood? what do you think he meant by that? >> i don't know what, i couldn't tell you. that is the picture i have one too. like that. are you showing it? >> yeah, we are looking at it now. it's a very -- the boy looks -- >> he looks sad. i think it's because michael always said he missed most of his childhood. he loved to run and play and loved children and i think this is what this picture stands for. >> i interviewed a lot of people about michael. many of your family. your children have interviewed, janet and la toya and jermaine. they all said michael was such a happy child and loved playing pranks on people and that kind of thing. do you ever feel regret as his mother that he did lose the childhood really to superstardom? you had your time again, would you want the kids, especially michael, to go into that crazy world? >> well, to a certain extent. none of my children really -- my husband was sort of a -- very strict about things like that. where we came from, there was a lot of crime. we cared about our children and didn't want them out there on the street running around and breaking in cars and doing like most of the children did back then. we did things with them in the house. that's when they started the singing. as far as having a good time and all, they were in the little league and things like that and they learned to play the music and michael always said he didn't have a childhood, but he enjoyed what he was doing. >> i think that's true. when you talk about his father being tough with them, was he too tough? did he have to be that tough? >> i didn't think he was too tough, but back in those days, everybody raised their children about the same. if you did something wrong, you got a scolding for it and you also got a licking as they called it. today you can't do that. michael looked back at those times and said he was abused. they call it abuse, but sometimes if it wasn't for the strap, what would this world be like today? >> do you think that the world has gone a bit soft in terms of discipline? >> i think we have gone a bit too soft. i really do. then they have too much things out there for the children to do. they are too open with a lot of things. things that we weren't open years ago about. i just feel bad. i know that the world is -- i think it's doomed. >> do you? >> the bible tells us the world will be destroyed. i think. >> when you look at america, modern america now, where do you think people are going wrong especially in bringing up children? >> i think society is sometimes the fault of it. they tell the children to call 911. then some cases maybe they need to do that, but then some cases, some parents are afraid of their children. some children tell their parents if you do this to me, i will call 911 or call the police. whatever the children can do. >> i talked to your children. all said in various stages of their lives we have a tough up bringing and our father was strict, but as they got older and in some case his their own kids, they began to realize it was the kind of tough love they needed. it's interesting for me to talk to them now that they are older. it must be for you an interesting experience to hear their views change as they get older. >> they do. children change. for instance, tito is that said i am going to raise my children like -- they call their father joseph -- just like i was raised. all of the children all of the terrible things they laid on michael. he didn't do these things. there wicked people out there and they accuse you. >> it must have been very hurtful for you as his mother, some of the things michael was accused of and the court cases he had to fight. how did you feel as his mother. >> oh, my gosh. it almost destroyed me in a way when i say it just hurt. i know michael didn't do those terrible things. there so many wicked people, why are they doing this to him? 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[ male announcer ] to get the flights you want, sign up for a venture card at capitalone.com. what's in your wallet? uh, it's ok. i've played a pilot before. back now with michael jackson's mother and long time friend, bret livingston strong. did you advise michael that his own behavior, i intrude michael a few years ago and he had a very child-like quality to him. did you ever feel concern that he was allowing himself to get put in the positions when he had all these young boys come out? did you say michael, i think you should be careful because the rest of the world may not see this in the innocent way you do? >> i talked to him about it. i never told him to stop having children around, but he did stop having a lot. most of the children that were around michael was his own relatives. i can remember that my sister in law walked into the store and saw this one of tabloids and they had something ugly to say in the headlines. she just went berserk and said those are my grandchildren. they are michael's cousins. 'they saying this? >> do you think all of the accusations and allegations and the trials he had to go through, do you think it all contributed in the end to his physical condition? and his early death? do you think all the drugs he was taking for the anxiety and the lack of sleep, the pain killers and so on, was it all connected do you think in the end to the pressure and the tension and the stress? >> you know what, i think a lot of that was exaggerated about the different things he was taking. i have been to my son's house unannounced and i have been there announced. i have never seen him in that way. i know he was taking pain killers because he got burned on the top of his head. very painful. all the other stuff they added to it, i don't know if that was the truth or not, but i don't think that has anything to do with the way he died. >> what do you think as his mother caused his death? >> i don't know. all i know is they used propofol and they shouldn't have used it and they used it in the wrong setting. that's all i know and that's what caused his death. >> what are your feelings towards dr. conrad murray? do you blame him? >> um, you know what, i can't even describe the way i feel about him. he did a terrible thing. it might have been others involved. i don't know that. i feel that. i would rather not answer that question. the only thing he did for a person's life. four years in jail is not enough. i will never see my son again. he can get out and he will enjoy his children. but -- >> michael trusted him. >> yes, he did. he did trust him. >> here trusted a lot of people. >> he trusted everybody. >> did you meet conrad murray? >> never met him still to this day, i have never met him. >> has he tried to contact you? >> i don't think so. >> he has never written to you or anything? >> no. >> it was a devastatingly awful thing to happen to lose this son of yours who is just 50 years old. half a life really. >> yes. >> will you ever get over this do you think? >> never. every morning, all through the day i think about michael. if i wake up through the night, my mind is there. >> what do you think? >> i just miss him. being a christian and believing in resurrection, i feel they will see him again. i'm sorry. >> that's perfectly understandable. you are his mother. i can't imagine a worse thing. i can't even imagine how horrendous it must be to lose a child. >> i know. >> it's so unnatural. >> yes, it is and it should be -- >> lots of people say that michael in the build up to his death was working too hard, was too tire and couldn't sleep and you heard all of this. is that true? i also heard from people that were working with him on the tour and everything that he was pretty fit and enjoying it and having a good time and excited. what's the truth? >> excuse me? >> how did you think he was? in the build up to his death physically. >> you know, we have a trial going on and i would rather not say. i talked a lot already about it. >> were you concerned about him? >> oh, yes. oh, yes. when they told me he had 50 shows going on, i was concerned about the shows and i thought it was a little bit too much. michael had not been on stage in about ten years. i called him and i told him. the way they had it structured, they had every other night he would be working. on a night and off a night. on a night, off a night. he was used to working at least once or twice a week. i just kept calling and telling him they had to change the schedule. i thought it was too much to him. >> did he listen to you? >> oh, yes. >> did you feel there were bad people around him? >> yes, i do. >> enabling i guess is the word you would use and allowing him to -- >> it was -- i just don't want to answer those questions right now, but i feel there was. they didn't care about him. all they cared about was money. >> it was about money, you think? >> yes. >> let's take a short break and when we come back, i want to talk about the incredible art and how michael's children are doing. you are raising them now. >> yes. >> i think people are fascinating about that and they seem to be doing great which is good news. >> they are. >> we're will be back in a moment. 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[ male announcer ] the security of a 2012 iihs top safety pick. the volkswagen passat. that's the power of german engineering. right now lease the 2012 passat for $209 a month. with two times the points on dining in restaurants, you may find yourself asking why not, a lot. chase sapphire preferred. daddy has been the best father you can ever imagine. and i just wanted to say i love him. so much. >> heart breaking scenes of michael jackson's memorial season with paris jackson, his daughter. i am here with an interview with cath rib r rin jackson and art mentor, bret livingston. incredibly painful for those kids particularly in public. you have taken them into your home and bringing up michael's children. how are they getting on? >> they are getting on very well. >> they seem to be doing remarkably well and seem to have between them all his kind of zest for life, his talent, his confidence in public and all of those things. it's extraordinary to watch. it must be for you too. almost reliving michael. >> they are in school. the two oldest go to a private school and the youngest doesn't want to leave home so we have a tutor there for him. the oldest, prince, the oldest boy, he is such a great student. >> is he? >> his grades are so good. they are a pluses. >> do you see the spirit of michael in them? >> yes, i do. >> how would you feel and paris started down this road. if they want to go into show business. >> paris does. >> do you feel pleased or concerned? >> i am pleased and i am concerned at the same time. i don't think that michael would want her to be out there this soon. she wanted it so bad low and she kept saying please, grandma, i want this. it was something she really wanted and i gave in and said okay. >> how good is she? >> she is very good. she was showing me and i said how do you know you can act? you haven't had acting and i started sending her to acting and after that she said just try me. she said i can cry on queue. she showed me how she can cry. >> amazing. >> she is very good. she is good. >> how do you think they have coped with losing their father? >> you know, i don't think that they act like normal children. they play and they have a good time, but i don't think they will ever forget. i don't think so. but they are doing quite well. very well. >> bret, come back to you and michael. you knew him extremely well. very heart rendering talking to katherine about all this stuff. can't get a more powerful voice really than michael's mother. does this resonate with you? what was your feeling about michael and the build up to his death. were you concerned about him as a friend? >> his enthusiasm to succeed brought all this strength out in him. he just wanted to create more and be in front of his fans again. he was enthusiastic. >> were you concerned as a friend of his about what was possibly going on? >> during the time that he was pretty much studying to do the concerts, i had very little contact with him. the contact that i did have, he was upbeat and enthusiastic. he would call me early hours of the morning and leave me fantastic messages. i never knew he had a problem, but i know that over the years he would trust people and he would not do any due diligence or sometimes his inner feelings, he would not listen to them and he had a lot of trust he should have questioned. >> you said an interesting thing to me in the break about michael's relationship with his father. >> yes, he loved his father and i think a lot of the publicity that his father may have been harsh on him. i think people should know that he respected his father and thought his father was fantastic that gave his brothers and sisters a wonderful future and he respected him. his father turned up at all those terrible trials that he had to go through and he was always supportive of him. he loved him. >> katherine, what would you like michael's legacy to be? >> i know he will be remembered as the artist he was, but a lot of people misunderstood him. michael loved life and loved people. he gave so much to charity. he always loved to give to the people that didn't have. even since he was a little kid about six or seven years old. as i always tell the story about he was laying on the floor watching tv and remember when these little black kids had the big stomachs and the flies flying around their mouths and he would start crying and he was telling me, mommy, one day i will do something about this. >> and the scenes from ethiopia and africa. the starving young children. >> the starving young children with the big bellies. he has always been giving to charities and things like that. he gave more than people knew. >> what do you think is the biggest misconception about michael for people who didn't know him? >> the things that were coming out in the media and people believing what they read. these were all terrible lies. >> like what? >> like he was molesting young boys and other things that he was doing. that he might have been on pain killers and things like that. as far as them trying to make him out to be a terrible person, he was not that. >> let's take a quick break and come back and talk further in a few minutes. 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